If "Hammer Spammers" are so annoying, why don't you just equip elemental defense and own them with a Blitz?
If you can't defeat someone with the armor and weapon you're using, MAYBE YOU'RE USING THE WRONG ARMOR AND WEAPON! Every loadout has a counter.
Sorry, I guess I misinterpreted what Brady was trying to say. Whatever the case, let's not sidetrack this thread's original topic anymore.
No, please, Tennis, let's derail this thread some more. Just not with something LD related.
LD related threads scorch my retina and make my eyelids twitch. Anytime you discuss something someone uses, they hate you for it. Anytime you discuss something someone doesn't use and kills them a lot, they say it's OP.
Why can't we all just live together?
On a side note, I'd love to learn how to fight hammers from one of you guys. For a Striker without Trinkets, I play fairly well in T3...but hammers always kick my [bucket].
@Hexzyle: If "Hammer Spammers" are so annoying, why don't you just equip elemental defense and own them with a Blitz?
lol The day someone successfully uses a Blitz with Elemental Defense in LD is the day someone beats Vanaduke with Skolver and a Sudaruska.
~Sev
It does take skill. It's just that the amount of skill expended on doing so is astronomically miniscule compared to the damage payoff you get for doing so.
@Tennis/Psycho:
Hearts specifically were irrelevant, but my point was not.
People complain about a "lack of skill required" all the time, but are often forgetting just how many things they take for granted that give free bonuses and don't require skill. Heart trinkies, for example, require no skill *whatsoever* (yes, that's even less than required than hammer/polaris) and give massive bonuses to your ability to kill (through consequence), yet no one complains about that. No one says "pfft, you only beat me becasue you landed more hits, but I actually got the first 2 hits in and therefore would have killed you easily, had you not been wearing those heart trinkies" then proceed to make a thread "why do people think heart strikers require skill?"
Aye, it's somewhat lengthier than "noob AA" but whatever.
Anyhoo, to get more clearly on-topic:
I'd have to agree mostly, with the OP. Although I do accept that you get good and bad hammer users, there's a pretty low skill ceiling involved. Not intended to show off (as I'm trying to argue that this is something not to be proud of) but this was my first match with hammer. In fact, it was my first time ever using the hammer at all. It was +1 and I'd never even used it in CW (although I had been previously warned to not finish the combo). I had AA on, but was rolling Vog striker with no heart trinkies. To add that to, I am also someone who does not play striker regularly, so I'm not used to the low health or using booster correctly. My typical attitude when seeing people is to run away and hide.
I proceeded to get a dozen matches thereafter with similar damage as that, and often top damage. I'd never used the hammer in my life before that. Now, either I'm an exceptionally quick learner and far more talented at striker than I realised (yet incapable of playing successful striker with the other staple weapons) or the hammer has some serious juice behind it that mitigate a lot of skill requirements typically seen in other weapons.
The bush population is down by 80 percent. Start planting bushes in your guild halls people! Or I'll give my people the word to rebel...
No! Do not listen to the bush, he lies! They plan on taking over the world, so stand up my brothers and bear arms against these fiends, let my Fang of Vog lead the way to victory! We will burn these bushed into oblivion and the world will all the more safe from their thorny ways. As you can see they are already planning on rebelling against us, we must all do our part before it is to late.
We have a guild plant! One day, he will become a "bush".
Although it may just be my local culture, I'm findin' it really hard to say "bush" and take it seriously...
"If you can't defeat someone with the armor and weapon you're using, MAYBE YOU'RE USING THE WRONG ARMOR AND WEAPON! Every loadout has a counter."
Armor should really only be offense based in lockdown. Lets say you used full elemental armor. There are three main damage types (not sure how normal goes into special defense), so your armor only has a 1/3rd chance of blocking an enemy weapon. Each person has two weapons, so theres only a 1/6th chance that they won't have somethin to hit you with, and thats an optimistic answer, because it's assuming they might use two of the same weapon type. Now, you can use that to your advntage as well. If you only have a 1/6th chance of being intterupted by armor, and a 1/6th chance of blocking something, buffing your weapons and lowering your defense is easialy a risk worth taking.
Every time I walk into guildhall I get sad because I can't bust up all the bushes in there ._.
"Every time I walk into guildhall I get sad because I can't bust up all the bushes in there ._."
^This.
All those potential crowns...
We will reign supreme and all the bushes shall bow before our power!
You obviously never saw that thread, then D:
As for the actual topic...
The Hammer's two main benefits (IMO) are its burst damage and unpredictability.
Because strikers rely so much on speed, fighting as/against one requires either insane reflexes or the ability to anticipate. Watch some of the best strikers and, when engaging in combat, they make erratic and unpredictable motions, attacking at odd intervals and from random angles. If they become predictable, a good player will just smack them in the face with a GF as they are swooping in for a hit. The hammer, when compared to a FF or GF is far more unpredictable. A hammer wielder can go from sporadic single swings, to long range lunges at random angles, to incredible damage if the enemy is caught by the full combo.
The Hammer appears to take no skill because you don't need stuff like the Striker Weave (Or whatever twitchy dance they do), or shield cancelling, or mass weapon switching in order to be good with the hammer. All you need is that randomness factor. Even slower Recons and Guardians suddenly have a method of quickly dashing in any direction they so please, allowing them to launch attacks at odd and angles and reposition on a moments notice. If you don't know what your opponent is about to do, you cant really counter it (unless they mess up horribly).
Now if you just want to stick a massive middle finger in the face of Hammer users, I got two words for you: VOLTAIC TEMPEST
Armor should really only be offense based in lockdown.
Should it be? Big pile of unbalanced-ness there.
Lets say you used full elemental armor.There are three main damage types (not sure how normal goes into special defense), so your armor only has a 1/3rd chance of blocking an enemy weapon.
For the sake of mainstreamness, let it be Vog. I don't understand how you have a "chance" of blocking an enemy weapon. Either they strike you with the weapon and your armor absorbs part of the damage, or they don't hit you at all. (forgive my ignorance if I'm not getting what you're trying to imply)
Each person has two weapons, so theres only a 1/6th chance that they won't have somethin to hit you with, and thats an optimistic answer, because it's assuming they might use two of the same weapon type. Now, you can use that to your advntage as well. If you only have a 1/6th chance of being intterupted by armor, and a 1/6th chance of blocking something, buffing your weapons and lowering your defense is easialy a risk worth taking.
Hangon, wait, I'm fairly sure I'm talking countering a specific weapon/armor. If someone brings Skolver, you smack them up with a Gran Faust or Divine Avenger, you don't cry about the fact that their armor is absorbing all your teethpick hits. If someone brings a teethpick, then you bring piercing defense and gun/bomb/outskill-with-sword them down. (basically. In practicality its a lot more difficult, but taking the right stuff gives you an immediate advantage)
The fact is, people are crying because they're being dominated by a Hammer, when they're neither wearing elemental defense nor approaching the hammer with the right weapon. The Hammer is already overpowered so they have an advantage from the word go. Obviously a hammer is going to dish out a lot to other swordies who stumble to close without a clue, and it will mash up gunners if your not a absolute quickdraw. But as was mentioned earlier, the dash removes invincibility frames, so a dashing hammer (they are quite handsome, aren't they) user will be shredded to pieces if he gets caught in the spray of a Blitz. Plague needle is probably even more effective because if he survives the first round, the poison will prevent him from being able to damage you enough to kill you before you're ready to unleash another barrage. And if he stops using the dash, switch to another weapon and counter him like you would if he was using a Divine Avenger.
if you can't beat them... join 'm!
nothing else to say :) (and then you will also learn that it's not just spamming the hammer)
unpredictable? the only unpredictable thing about the hammer is the dash.
nobody's gonna swing in the other direction, nobody's gonna combo into a wall.. they're all AIMING TO HIT YOU.
if they dash beside you, and then try to use the 3rd hit to slam you, then it's ridiculously easy to dodge. if it DOES hit you, they still need TIME to recover from the combo, when you can just land a hit of GF straight in their face, and start juggling them!
striker boost > hammer dash
unpredictable? the only unpredictable thing about the hammer is the dash.
Which...is what he was talking about, obviously....
The hammer "makes you unpredictable" because hammer users will often just dash around crazily to disorientate their targets. The only way the hammer doesn't make you unpredictable is if you just spam the regular attack and...well, no point even usin' the hammer if that's all you're gunna do...
But my hammer is full of love!
Just sometimes, love hurts.
And I love you... to death.
~Newg
Hammers, when used properly can deal a huge amount of damage, but when used incorrectly can wind up killing you. The problem with them is not what they are, it's that people don't know how to fight against Hammers.
Normally people back away from a sword swing, this is a trap for hammers since they dash forward to deal damage, to fight against them, move approximately perpendicular to the line connecting you and the hammer user. This will cause you to dodge the hammer's dash and i defeated people using a hammer this way and took no damage.
"Should it be? Big pile of unbalanced-ness there."
Well, yea, it is unbalanced. I'm not saying that OOO should only premit offensive armor, I'm saying that it's the only effective armor. Or at least, the most effective armor. I'm not saying it should be the only armor allowed, I'm saying it should be the only armor you choose. I'd love to see armor balanced and whatnot.
"If someone brings a teethpick, then you bring piercing defense "
..and then they change weapon. As you said; "If someone brings Skolver, you smack them up with a Gran Faust or Divine Avenger". If someone will always switch out, why not just get armor that stacks weapon damage? Then you don't have to worry about what the enemy has, it puts the ball in your court. Instead of matching your defense to their damage, you match your bonus to your weapon.
"The fact is, people are crying because they're being dominated by a Hammer, when they're neither wearing elemental defense nor approaching the hammer with the right weapon. "
True. I'm just saying that wearing full elemental hood is not really a great solution. Vog would be useful though, but damage bonus from armor > ASI because you can just UV ASI. Not that everyone has max ASI or anything.
"if you can't beat them... join 'm!"
You win again, OOO!!!
"Hammers, when used properly can deal a huge amount of damage, but when used incorrectly can wind up killing you."
No. Gran fausts, when used incorrectly, can end up killing you. Hammers do no such thing.
"Hammers do no such thing."
[Psychodestoyer gets distracted by that comment and accidentally hammer-dashes into a FF charge, through a AoA blast before hitting a Shadowfire block and dying.]
"If someone will always switch out, why not just get armor that stacks weapon damage? Then you don't have to worry about what the enemy has, it puts the ball in your court. Instead of matching your defense to their damage, you match your bonus to your weapon."
THAT perfectly sums up why I'm building up for a Chaos set. CTR MAX & dmg bonus Med for EVERYTHING >:D (when I use Recon, anyway. And if everything I have is lvl 10)
But still. UBER WEAPON BONUSES FTW :D
Anyway, here are my two (counterfeit) Crowns.
Hammers are not OP. OP is a T3 Skolver Striker with 2 Penta-Heart trinkets and a GF, DA, Trollaris, and FF, with MAX UVS on every single piece of equipment he/she owns. With auto-aim activated. And has ton of skill.
Unless, of course, that Skolver has 0 skill. Then he/she's not so OP.
Not saying that OP skolver clones are bad, just the attitude of some of them. :/ Whenever I somehow get lucky and kill one with my Voltedge, most usually say something along the lines of "STUPID NOOB." Although whenever they say that I always say "Umad that you got killed by a NOOB? :3"
There are only a few I've met who've said something like "Nice! You really got me there XD /applaud," or don't say anything at all.
Anyway, sort of getting off topic here. Back to the subject of Hammers.
...
...
...
._. Everything I can think of saying has been already said.
/shrug
Hammers are not OP. OP is a T3 Skolver Striker with 2 Penta-Heart trinkets and a GF, DA, Trollaris, and FF, with MAX UVS on every single piece of equipment he/she owns. With auto-aim activated. And has ton of skill.
I'd like to direct you to the second half of this post.
Hammers most certainly are OP. But not in such a way that makes them unmanageable for their targets, nor makes them a godmode weapon. But they are, by all definitions of the word, overpowered. Their output potential far exceeds the skill required to use it, and even a non-sword user with no experience, no UVs and no "godmode striker set" can still walk into LD with a hammer, flail around wildly and walk out with max damage and dozens of kills.
The hammer "makes you unpredictable" because hammer users will often just dash around crazily to disorientate their targets.
ahahahahaahahahaaaa that made me laugh for a while.
Hammer dash isn't faster than walking. you might as well walk around your target like an mentally challenged child.
... any other reason the hammer is OP?
you can say that's it's USEFUL because it has a fast dash, maybe enough to escape your opponent for a moment or two, maybe enough to lash out a storm driver shot, meh.. but every weapon has its usage. herrderr...
No. Gran fausts, when used incorrectly, can end up killing you. Hammers do no such thing.
/lol
/me dashes into shock trap
/me dashes into shadow fire
/me accidentally uses full combo and gets gangbanged by faust wielding skolvers
/me dashes into a crowd of faust wielding skolvers
/me dashes into polaris
/me dashes into stagger storm
/me dashes into nitronome
/me dashes into justin bieber's music
need I emote more?
Hammer dash isn't faster than walking.
Actually, the hammer dash is a lot faster than walking. It won't get you across a room faster than someone walking because you stop after the dashes. It's like saying a car isn't any faster than a person because every time it gets ahead of you it stops. It certainly is faster and it only takes one eyeball to notice that much, which leads me to ask: "Are you completely blind?"
The one and only circumstance in which dashing "is not faster" is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of hammer in LD, becasue people don't use it to get somewhere faster than you, they use it to spin circles around you. Again, read my post. If I can do all that (repeatedly mind you, not just a one-match-wonder) with no striker skill, no swords skill and literally zero hammer practice, no heart pendants (i.e, two-hit kill) literally just from dashing circles around people, then there's clearly something to take note of.
It's not used to escape, it's just used to disorientate and dodge attacks, similar to the striker boost. And it works. To shocking effect. The only people who it won't work on quite so effectively are people who are experienced in dealing with hammer users, but having effective counter-experience by no means means that the weapon itself isn't OP anymore.
Polaris has effective counter-tactics; does that mean it's not annoying? Don't be so naive.
Although, I will agree that the dash is as dangerous to yourself as anyone else, as you can easily dash into hazards and hazes and GF isn't even remotely as potentially self-detrimental as a hammer can be, unless you find yourself comboing with a GF at every turn, and with low ASI at that. Although, hammer is also the single best sword to deal with bombers, as it lets you boost in and hit them, then dash back out of their bomb rad before it goes off.
"/me dashes into shock trap
/me dashes into shadow fire
/me accidentally uses full combo and gets gangbanged by faust wielding skolvers
/me dashes into a crowd of faust wielding skolvers
/me dashes into polaris
/me dashes into stagger storm
/me dashes into nitronome
/me dashes into justin bieber's music"
You got killed by a shock trap, shadow fire, fausts, polaris, stagger storm, nitrome, and justin biebers shrill middle school voice.
Not a hammer.
All members of a team must work together to accomplish that objective. Each individual should do whatever it takes to win. This means choosing an alchemer over the blitz needle, choosing voltaic tempest over the nitronome, and by extension this also includes players who choose the warhammer over DA/GF/FF/FoV.
You have cleary not seen a good blitzer completely screw over a bomber, skolvers immune to voltaic tempest, and smartypants one-shot killing people with FoV.
lol The day someone successfully uses a Blitz with Elemental Defense in LD is the day someone beats Vanaduke with Skolver and a Sudaruska.
So all the time? I've done a run or two with Tsubasa where she perfectly judges the distance of her Suda charge to nail Vana straight in the nads. She didn't use Skolver though, only Ironmight, so I guess that doesn't count.
Equipment isn't everything. It's only the beginning.
"So all the time? I've done a run or two with Tsubasa where she perfectly judges the distance of her Suda charge to nail Vana straight in the nads. She didn't use Skolver though, only Ironmight, so I guess that doesn't count.
Equipment isn't everything. It's only the beginning."
Equipment is more important in LD than it is in PVE. I'd say equipment is half if you aren't putting in heart trinkets. Once you factor in enemies that pay for double HP, equipment is pretty much everything.
That's like saying skill isnae important either.
High damage nerf striker. No heart trinkies, no skolver, no UVs. Just Vog and Suda the whole match.
Equipment really is only the beginning; what you do with it counts for a lot more.
Equipment is only the beginning?
yes it's true, but put a better screenie of it at least. 13k? lmao ahahahaa
"13k? lmao ahahahaa"
...
Why is it that there can't be some obsessive cult-clan hating on elitists?
yes it's true, but bleeehhhhhhhhhfhgfhgehgehgrhgffg
shut up kid
Or else we won't have any oxygen to breath!
You want me to go through screenies and find max damages and "best evahs"? I'm not a striker, not a swordy and rarely play either. I'm a bomber by main, so my "bestest" sword damage won't match up with someone who spends 90% of their time striking.
The point wasn't me showing off "I'm so amazing, check my 13k damage, I'm so rad", the point was "I'm not a striker, using a bad set, with none of your metagame bonuses such as hearts or UVs and using a totally nerfed normal-damage weapon and could still get top damage".
And no, that's not a sole incident. Don't be a typical clone elitist who just looks at damage and thinks nothing more. The whole point was that gear is not all that matters; you can achieve a lot with little. You go try playing Vog with Suda and drop your heart trinkies; it's a whole different experience, but it needn't be crippling.
And honestly, if someone such as yourself can't manage to get decent scores with nerf gear like that (which, you should be able to if you are skilled) then it only goes to show that you're relying on gear rather than skill. If you can get decent scores with it, then it just goes to prove the point that equipment is, after all, only the beginning.
I watched Shen-Ra go on a roll a few days ago in...Cobalt I think? With like 6 hp and was still racking up top damage every second match. Point made, or do you still want to be shallow and avoid the point?
The Hammer is OP and Pay-to-Win. I shall continue to hate.
The Bush contains coins that are shiny. I shall continue to smash.
The Hammer is OP and Pay-to-Win. I shall continue to hate.
Feel free to continue to hate, as it is OP, but I don't view it as p2w as much as merely p2p, personally. A lot of the best strikers out there don't use it and still do great jobs. It's a very volatile weapon; like a child with a gun: great for easy access to damage without skill/experience, but just as likely to cause collateral damage and/or just get shoved aside by someone more experienced.
It was a quip, but if you insist on answering it seriously, to the extent that I was serious, I mean just that it's the most powerful sword in the game and is available only for cash monies. It's not the most OP weapon in lockdown as that would be Polaris (or kilowatt in T2 where I usually stomp, if only because hammers are slightly less OP there.)
It's not impossible to beat a hammer without one, but it's not an equal match either - you have to have -more- skill than the hammer-user to beat him half the time. If you have equal skill you will lose most of the time. Hence Pay-to-Win.
I'm planning on building a kilowatt and a polaris to bring to T2/T3 lockdowns to even the odds when there's too many hammers, since those are OP and annoying-as-hell .... but part of free-play. If I ever have a hammer I guarantee it will be part of my loadout, of course. It's too OP -not- to bring unless you prefer to lose.
PS: I run two tri-heart trinkets in T2 lockdown. I may play more T3 when I have completed two Pentas, or maybe 1 Penta and my choice of Elite ___ Module. It wouldn't make sense to bring anything but the most OP trinkets possible. Resists trinkets are a joke, you might as well not bother spending the energy on unlocking a trinket slot.
I went with mining hat + fencing jacket and toothpick only. 18k damage. oh yeah, no heart trinkets.
also, divine avenger only, using vog, 25k
buy me a suda. or shall I go with proto sword?
You got killed by a shock trap, shadow fire, fausts, polaris, stagger storm, nitrome, and justin biebers shrill middle school voice. Not a hammer.
I shoot you with a gun. I didn't kill you, the bullet did.
I must record some LD games. I'll show you skill.
I'm a recon. ;)
"I went with mining hat + fencing jacket and toothpick only. 18k damage. oh yeah, no heart trinkets.
also, divine avenger only, using vog, 25k
buy me a suda. or shall I go with proto sword?"
The size of your ego's your issue, not ours.
Frankly, I could care less if you beat everyone to death with a Protobomb.
TL;DR: Come back when I should care.
Above me are 99 noob post. Most of them kindly donated by Psycho
let the senseless flaming.....begin
"let the senseless flaming.....begin"
Somewhat ironic considering the general direction of your post.
EDIT: I find it amusing that the people who use the term 'noob' and it's variants the most are usually people who have a super-inflated ego online, usually the result of trying to cover up some personal anxieties often caused by some RL inadequacies; i.e unattractiveness, lack of intelligence, lack of friends, general being not cool etc, and so cover their personal shame by being the badbucket they want to be in real life by roleplaying one online, where their 'inadequacies' are hidden from prying eyes.
TL;DR: Pot calling kettle black.
WONDER FACT of the DAY - People complain about Auto-Target.