low down energy prices! who is with me!

I honestly think they should just improve the mist mechanic for at least until T2-3 or something, I got some new friends to play and I felt obligated on selling them cheap CE and helping them with equipment to get them started in the game.

Nobody is gonna invest on a game they have hardly play, they'll just feel like they got duped and stop playing, coming from a guy that cant even remember the last time he bought CE, I can say there should be something that helps new players be able to do dungeon runs more efficiently before they have to invest into buying CE for $.

I dont really care about anybody else, but it feels like its really unfair for literal new players.

>103 replies, 95 new

God damn you guys like to whinge.

Same here Shoebox
It seems people are complaining about energy, because theyre too newbish to fork over maybe $10
Thats like a movie guys, cmon
Dont be such idiots, as of now at around 4k, its not that expensive
Unless you have no skill and die every few minutes and use Energy revives constantly
Im buying around 200 per T2 run, minimum
Sometimes I can 300 or 400 depending on which gate I use
Yes, I did happen to say 400, read that number, bathe in it
You too could be there, if you learned to shield, and gun or bomb when necessary
As it stands, only the whiny F2PF(free to play forever) newbs are whining about energy as I see it
What the game really needs is more content, as to balance out the market
You can't just say, lets lower prices!!!!, and watch them drop
Head over to the suggestions forum, write a well thought suggestion that I have no reason to bash
Trust me, I could go in and bash every single one in there(or most of them) for not being well thought out enough
If you pass my test, then congrats, you can now think on a slightly more advanced level
~Kymroi out~

the people who will never pay money are the ones who are whining tne hardest. if they left the game, the people who wanted to pay would still be here (and lead a happier more peaceful existence). so how does anyone lose out if these people leave the game after however long they are going to continue complaining?

I have already specifically stated WE dont' want to play because the game is marketed as Free.

WTF does that mean to you people?

Let them kick you in the nuts then with their supposed "free" game.

I have already stated that I am unable to drop a dime on the game because I am crippled and can barely afford to live.

That attitude that I have to pay is just stupid, the game is marketed as free which means no money needs to be given to see/do all content within normal time periods. If this is found to be untrue, then the game isn't free is it? No, it's not.

Your last statement is beyond ignorant. You say you want all the people that won't pay a dime to leave? Do you have any idea just how many of us there are?

If all the players that didn't want to pay left, there wouldn't be hardly anyone to play with or buy stuff from.

You also need to realize that MOST people playing this game ARE NOT adults, and don't have jobs or sources of income.

If you can barely afford to live why are you playing video games?
Wouldn't a second job be better?
Then you could afford to live, and when you get a better job that doesnt require a second one, and supports you
Then you can pay for this game if you still want to play
It is free to play, completely
You dont have to spend 1 cent on it
As I stated, once you get to T2, you can buy 200-400 energy per run
Its not that hard, even with the lag I encounter(which is massive)

Implying I even can work..

I am not able to get this so called 400 energy a run you seem to fantasize about, you have to buy recps to go deeper you know to get the gear needed.

Why else would I play a video game? To have fun.

Sucks you have massive lag spikes, I'm not plagued with that atm.

Well, every CE I burn someone has purchased.

You're only truly leeching if you never use anything but mist.

No buddy, YOU'RE ignorant.

I only meant that the people that don't like the way the game is run AND refuse to ever pay a dime should leave, rather than flood the forums with the same complaint all the time without listening to everyone else who says "hey its possible to play without paying." You act like you are the majority of the players, but really you're just a LOUD minority. Just because you speak the loudest doesn't make you right.

The CE system may not be perfect as is, but you don't seem to understand -- this is a business. The game follows a business model. If you don't like it, leave. They will probably tweak the system at some point to make it friendlier to new players, but the core of the game will not change, so you still won't be happy then I'm sure.

This game is FAR less limited than other games out there. You can do EVERYTHING in this game without paying. Let me repeat that: EVERYTHING. If you aren't paying in money, you are paying in time (additional runs to accrue crowns to buy energy in game). Still free though, right? Yup. There is no hard limit in this game that absolutely requires you to pay money. But at the end of the day, its still a free-to-play game, with some restrictions, which are still quite fair.

I'm so sorry you feel you've been kicked in the nuts.. but I guess you just aren't a skilled enough player to manage to do what a number of other players continue to do without ever paying money. I'm sorry you've grown up with this sense of entitlement that people owe you something, when you have nothing to give back.

There are enough free players that like the game as-is and paying players who will stick around that it really won't matter if you leave, or everyone like you. The game will still have players, the devs will still make the same amount of money, and the forums won't be filling with the same few people whining so hard, boo hoo / woe is me.

The game is not without its flaws, but give me a break people. Nobody is making you spend money, and nobody is making you stick around.

Put up or shut up.

With just coins in one full tank of mist energy (100) I can get just over 6k crowns in T2. Yes it is getting expensive to buy CE, but it isn't at a point that it is impossible to to play without buying. You just have to be smart.

You can do the following.

Go to the highest tier you can solo. Personally I can get through T2 to the end(can't access T3 yet), but I usually only go half way since I am looking for recipes, but that is another story. Anyway if you can only solo T1 that is fine. If you can only solo half of T1 that works too. Now what you do is solo as many floors as you can do safely without dieing. When you do this in your 100 mist energy you should receive not only ~5k crowns, depending how deep you go and what tier but you also receive mats and crystals.

You can then sell your mats for more crowns, or keep them for crafting like I am. (I currently have loads of mats) You also will get some of the crystals what you can trade in for a few hundred crowns. Now at this point you can either log out and wait for your mist energy to recover OR spend ~4k for 100 CE. Then rinse and repeat until satisfied.

Sure you won't be able to buy equipment or expensive recipes while using this method but you will not spend any money. This game is possible to play entirely for free if you are willing to sacrifice your time by waiting for mist to recharge or by sacrificing the ability to just buy what you want when you want.

I was at 3500 CE at one point, went on a buying / crafting spree down to 1800. And in a day I made it back to 2300.

Kymroi, there really exist people who can't afford the minimum to live, and cannot generate any income by themselves. It doesn't mean that they doesn't deserve to have fun, if they can. Saying "If you can barely afford to live why are you playing video games?" can be cruelty.

And GodofSkype1, you should know the "rules" of this game BEFORE playing, so if you doesn't agree to them, you should just not play the game. I read about the differences between mist and crystal energy, I didn't know about the CE-crowns market and it was ok to me to play relying only on ME, so I created an account to play. I tought I'd be able only to craft 3 star items or I would be forced to pay absurd amounts of crowns to buy 4 or 5 star gear, and it STILL was ok to me. God thanks there was a built-in market to exchance crowns for CE. Much better, I assure.

This game is free about not needing to throw a cent to play.
This game is free about not needing to throw a cent to do ANYTHING YOU WANT to in there.
This game, however, is NOT free about doing what you want WHENEVER you want, except if you scratch your wallet (or sharpen your skills, which is my case).

And it's all fair. Why? Because playing a good game like this one without any cost is not a RIGHT, but a PRIVILEGE, as some GM said at some topic I don't recall. Sega and OOO are enterprises, not charity houses, and are not expected to act like these last ones. They want income. Someone need to pay the electric bills, the developers, the servers' maintenance... and someone to feed those fat in-game birds to grow even bigger (XD). The game is supossed to be harder for "free players" like you and me. I can live with it. You should do the same.
No, I'm not telling you to leave the game; please stay with us, "free players". I'm just saying that, if you want to play anything for free, learn the rules about playing it for free, THEN see if you agree to them before joining.

Anyway, talking to Kymroi again, I must disagree that someone can afford to buy 200CE in just one T2 run (I can just raise something around 6-6.5k at T2, and the price of CE is about 3.5k+ now), so I plan to create a new character when the price for CE goes to 6k. I'll try to figure out how much it takes to get T2 in this scenario. Any news about it, I'll post in a new topic.

[Edit: corrected some grammar errors.]

" And it's all fair. Why? Because playing a good game like this one without any cost is not a RIGHT, but a PRIVILEGE, as some GM said at some topic I don't recall. Sega and OOO are enterprises, not charity houses, and are not expected to act like these last ones. They want income. Someone need to pay the electric bills, the developers, the servers' maintenance... and someone to feed those fat in-game birds to grow even bigger (XD). The game is supossed to be harder for "free players" like you and me. I can live with it. You should do the same. "

> This, times a million.

" No, I'm not telling you to leave the game; please stay with us, "free players". I'm just saying that, if you want to play anything for free, learn the rules about playing it for free, THEN see if you agree to them before joining. "

> I will take the liberty of telling them to leave. But only if they can't accept the facts you laid out in the rest of your post, and complain about it day after day. Then I am all for them exiting, hastily.

GG dude.

Energy price are too damn high!
also instead of 15 min of each energy they should do 5 min.

Bump

I don't understand your statement, slaxer. Do you mean they should generate 1 ME per 5 minutes?

All this vitriol about free vs. paying for energy. It's ridiculous. The game mechanics are spelt out for you when you join the game. If you know what you're doing you can play the game without spending anything. But consider the cost of 200 CE. $0.75 is affordable for everyone, even the 12 year olds asking for a raise in their allowance. You can still generate a critical mass of energy from crowns earning, despite the increases in costs. Yes, you can't buy recipes at the same time, but prioritize CE income unless you're really struggling. Even simple 1 and 2 star recipes though are purchasable quite easily along with a single bid for 100 CE. Spend the time to get the energy, use the energy to play and earn more energy. The smarter way however is to spend your ME for two runs a day to put in two bids for CE. You will spend some CE on this endevour to finish your second run, but you'll get more money out of it. Wait for tomorrow, play again, and repeat.

When you need to craft, use your ME or ask a guild member to craft with his energy and pay him in materials. Simply don't play that day if you run out of ME, and go play something else (Puzzle Pirates if you want, it's free too).

i would suggest prioritizing slightly different if you're starting off from scratch.

Tier 1:

First priority is 1 star recipes. These are not long term decisions since many sword lines don't start until 2 or 3 stars, so you can screw up your equipment choices this early on without having to spend extra time to change paths. You could try to go straight to 2 star equipment, but since the 1 star recipes/crafting are so cheap, you want to improve your gear (even if marginally) so you do better/go deeper on your tier 1 runs.

Once you have 1-star equipment, I would personally continue to limit playtime to your daily ME. Start researching / planning your 2-star gear and beyond choices (changes alchemy paths later might cost you time/effort later on, unless you're pretty efficient). If you have extra crowns and can afford the market price for CE, buy some. But otherwise persue your 2-star gear, slowly if you have to. Patience! You will be spending a half days ME on each 2-star gear you forge, so you can do short runs and craft or craft 2 items and take the day off. You should be able to get to Tier 2 equipment in your first week. Don't spend ME on energy doors / danger rooms / revives beyond a first or second one.

So if you are accumulating crowns and not finding the recipes you need fast enough, its pretty safe to spend those crowns on CE purchases in the market, but I would be prioritize recipes/crafting first, then purchasing CE as a secondary goal. At this point in the game you have no real NEED for CE. The stronger you are, the more profitable/efficient those runs are going to be. If you're selling mats, making good money on the initial mist energy runs, then go ahead and buy CE to make an additional run(s), as long as you still have profits left from the last run after buying CE. Don't burn crowns on CE if the cost is more than you are able to make in a run though. Depending on how the market goes these next few weeks, CE purchases may not be an option yet. But do what you can to be the best at Tier 1 runs!

Tier 2:

Now you're ready to REALLY churn out crowns for CE in the market. You can spend daily ME doing a dive through Tier 1 and into Tier 2, a full Tier 2 run (though you will probably struggle in the half past the terminal), or two half runs on Tier-2. You should be making a decent amount of crowns on these runs, so you can divide your money between 3-star recipes and CE purchases. Or go for CE purchases only will the market continues to rise, since its going to be best to buy when its cheaper. Work on 3-star gear, lather, rinse repeat.

4-star gear is going to be more of a challenge financially and CE wise, but if you keep playing I would imagine you can reach it in a month or two of playing. I know lots of people have probably done it sooner, but we're still talking about playing without paying, and possibly having a social life / less time to dedicate to the game.

Tier 3:

??? Lol. Good luck! Probably just more of the Tier 2 strategy, with CE banking being more feasible but the recipes / equipment becoming pretty costly. So I would worry about CE purchasing before the next level of equipment, but thats just me!

Hope that helps.

Yes, 1 ME per 5min . I just like this game, but a Fb game that has energy in it probably have shorter regens than this....and right now the energy trade price are rising and the biggest con on this game is the damn energy

Facebook games also cost less than $10k to make and are free to host for the developers. >D

It should be noted that there are lots of people out there willing to craft gear for you without any energy requirements, as long as you pay a little extra for it. If you have a good income going, you can save up over several runs to get yourself a decent set. Priority should always be weapons, proper hit and run tactics can beat any opponent with a strong enough weapon.

Just my two cents here...

I really like Spiral Knights. It's simple, but very fun. It combines a lot of elements from a lot of games I like.

I, personally, think the people who are complaining about Crystal Energy costs are way off-base. SK has literally the best and most friendly model for a free-to-play game ever. You simply have to accept that this is not a game you can play for 8 hours a day like you can with many MMOs.

In SK, as some other people in this thread have pointed out, you can do literally everything for free. Let me reiterate. You can experience the ENTIRE GAME for free. This is unlike basically every other free-to-play MMO I've ever seen, with only a few exceptions. The others I've seen basically lock you out of high-end content if you're not willing to pay for it. SK will allow you to do everything without paying a cent. You're simply going to be going at a slower pace, in terms of real time (Not necessarily hours played) than a cash player. The only difference is that you're going to play in 60-90 minute increments per day, rather than playing 8 hours a day and getting to the end destination ASAP.

So let's see...we have a choice here. I, as a player trying out new games, try two different F2P games. One which allows me to play all day if I want to, but will not let me progress into high-end content without actually paying money, and one which will allow me to play 1.5 hours a day for free (or so), but I can eventually accomplish everything in without paying anything, if I don't want to. To me, the choice is easy. I will choose the second one. Maybe some other people might disagree, but I really can't see the appeal in the first choice. I will be 'done' with traditional F2P MMO game rather quickly (because it only has about 5-10 hours of actual play before you get locked out of the cool stuff behind the cash curtain), whereas I will keep coming back to SK because I can keep accomplishing more and eventually get to the highest-end content.

Most of the people who seem to be complaining about the energy system seem to have it in their head that it's an absolute given that you should be able to play it all day if you so wish. Come on, guys. If you don't want to buy crystal energy, just play the game for your 90 minutes a day, and only buy enough CE for your alchemy, using some crowns. Problem solved. Certainly you have other games you can play, if you want to play more time than 90 minutes a day. Do you really need to play JUST one game, exclusively, and then move onto the next?

What I've done is make Spiral Knights a part of my routine, more or less. I come on at 10 PM, as I'm winding down for the day, play out my 100 energy, and I'm very happy with this. I look forward to it. I don't feel the need to buy significantly more CE just to play longer (Full Disclosure, though: I have paid real money for some energy. I wanted to give some money to Three Rings for making a game I liked. I've mostly been using it for Alchemy costs though, not for playtime). I think a lot of players feel this way. Even the 'hardcore' players. I fall into that category myself; I play games like Monster Hunter, which is a pretty unforgiving game.

But if you come into the game expecting to be able to play it all day, then I suppose you might be disappointed. But this is a different model from most games, and as long as you accept the difference, which might seem strange at first, you can have a great time with it, even without paying money. Overall, the tradeoff is definitely worth it. Play it less time per day, in order to receive the ability to experience the entire game without paying any real money. I wish more F2P MMOs used this model.

TL;DR version:
SK has a very friendly system as long as you put away this silly notion of playing it all day every day. You get to experience everything in the game, including the high-end content, without paying, you just have to spend more time (though not necessarily play-time) to do it, in direct opposition with the vast majority of F2P MMOs, in which free players are locked out of basically everything cool.

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say in a friendlier and more eloquent manner!

Take that post, sticky it, and make it required reading for anyone taking issue with the current CE system. :)

Just so we're clear, I'm not by any means some amazing player of this game. I die a lot, a stand on spikes, I fail to shield, all that.

I've been able to play as much as I want (several hours a day, but probably less than some people would like to play), using just my ME and CE purchased off the market, at cost (which is steadily rising), for no amount of real money. My progression was slightly slower as a result, but nonetheless I was able to enter Tier 2 within a couple days of starting, less than 8 hours on my character. I've received nothing cheap or free from other players (in fact I was substantially overcharged for the one T2 piece I didn't craft myself), nor was I escorted/carried through something I otherwise couldn't handle. Not to mention, I bought a ton of recipes that I'm never going to use, I've never sold materials in the market, and I've spent a ton of energy rezzing myself and other players (even up to 40 for myself, multiple times). I even recently donated (energy, crowns, and mats) a T2 set to a friend of mine and I think I just crossed the 20 hour mark.

I'm not going to judge anyone's circumstance or lifestyle choices: we spend our money on what's important to us (to quote a funnier man than I, "Some people juggle geese"). I'm not paying, yet, simply because my fun money is already spoken for this month and this game is not important enough to decrease any of my other budget categories. To imply that the game is somehow not free, however, would be disingenuous and inaccurate.

The alchmey and elavetor(6)

I never said the game wasn't free to play, I said that if you market a game as free to play and then expect people to pay for it, it's not free to play. You would be better off charging a subscription fee or something. Nothing wrong with pay to play, everything wrong with pay to win.

If they dont' do something to contain the rising prices of CE for the newbs then the newbs are going to feel like it's pay to win.

Also, standing around all day spamming the chat because you HAVE to sell your things in this game, is beyond ridiculous.

Maybe there would be less *^$%@ing if we had an Auction House.

If energy prices rise above the cost of crowns you get from Tier 2(8000K),then I'm done. And I know a lot of other players will be right behind me. Having the players control the economy is a good idea, but there needs to be a limit. I am not seeing anything done about this. It's becoming an increasing problem, and if it's not rectified I will leave the game completely and delete my account.

I'm already to the point where I'm starting to think it's pointless.

3*recipes cost 5500 a piece and it's 100 energy to craft it
4* recipes are 15000 a piece and it's idk how much to craft those
5* recipes are 45000 a piece and it's like 300 energy to craft those

Energy 1 day ago was nearly 4000CR to get a MEASLY 100CE

You need to purchase at least all 4* gear before you can get into T3 where the REAL money is.

Does no one see a problem with this model?

Running the same gate over and over and over again to try to get more money, only to end up wasting 60-80 energy a tier and that's without rez costs if you are is not profitable, nor is it fun.

I don't even do danger rooms now because it's just not profitable.

I also refuse to pay to get the item I want for the prices required for it. It's cheaper to craft it yourself.

Eh.

I'll get to Tier 3 when I get there. Got my first piece of 4* yesterday (could have had it earlier, but blew my stash on getting a swiftstrike buckler. SwishswishswishswishSWINSH(swishswish).)

Currently got over 1k CE, mainly from elevator runs with pickupgroups, partly from a bit of trading. (Where I either make a small profit or a huge loss depending on how well I can count. 90CE is a decent cost for crafting wolver stuff, right?)

Can people REALLY not manage to make 400 coins on a single dungeon floor? My 'strategy' is always to open treasure-box doors if I can and to never energy-res more than twice. (With a group it's usually me spending health to res the others, though the runs where they res me back I am always very happy)

I generally avoid danger rooms. They're great when I can do 'em, but there's a few rooms that are just WAY too much pain. (Bomber gremlins, masses of rocket puppies... Heck, I prefer Trojan over shock-bots. And don't get me started on so called 'friendly' shock bots...)

Where was I? Oh yes. Anyway. Even T1 runs are playing the game. And it's free. What's not to like?

I mean, I COULD drop a bit of real money, have my 5-star gear and go play the end-game. Would that be more fun? Doubt it.
Would being flash and spending 80 energy to res the whole squad in an arena for the third time be fun? Occasionally. But I don't intend to make a habit of it, even when I have enough energy.

Seems to me like the issue is over the definition of "Free to Play".

Some folks here think that "Free to Play" implies "Entirely Free to Play, Indefinitely, No Purchase Ever Required for Anything". Thus, advertising a game as "Free to Play" when there is any payment involved ever is tantamount to false advertising.

The more reasonable proportion of the gaming world recognizes that a high-quality MMO requires a good deal of investment by a lot of people, and some form of income generation is needed to offset those costs and hopefully turn a profit someday.

In other words, get over your entitlement. The world doesn't bow to your whims, and this game won't either. If you hate it so much, you can leave, you understand... This isn't like, a job, or a country, where leaving it behind will be difficult. You can just... not play anymore.

You ever read this book House of Leaves? It's really great, and you can get it at the library for free, and I guarantee it will give you hours of entertainment and potentially a handful of nightmares and some lingering paranoia. And you don't have to pay, ever. Literature is awesome.

Let me ask you kids, with no jobs and presumably no allowance a question or two.

It's marketed as a free game, hence you assumed you wouldn't be obligated to spend money, correct?

Do you then realize this game is not marketed as "Play for free 24/7!"?

You can play for free, and get everything a paying player can get. A paying player just advances faster. How is this unfair?

In what way, shape or form is it unfair for players to support this game? And in return, get a benefit for allowing Three Rings to keep their jobs?

No one owes you a damn thing. No one owes you the privilege of playing as much as you want for free. No one owes you all the advantages paying players have because the game is "marketed as free".

Get your heads out of your [butts] please. Games cost money to make. Whether or not a game succeeds can make or break dev team's careers (and coders and markets execs etc).

@spookas : Hey, but the libraries closes, and i can't stay with the book indefinitely. So it's not free! I'll stop to read at libraries!
(Of course it was sarcasm.)

@GodofSkype1: First, to entice is diametrically opposed to force. Second, the problem is the english language itself, because it uses only word to express two meanings. In portuguese, we have the word "gratis" or "gratuito", to express no cost, and the word "livre", to express liberty.
This way, we have no "liberty" to play WHENEVER we want, althought we can slowly get EVERTHING we want. In such meaning, it's not really free.
But in the other meaning, we can do Everything WITHOUT ANY COST. How much time it will take to take a breeze at The Core? Two weeks? Two months? Two years? Doesn't matter ho much annoying it may be in the future: it IS FREE TO PLAY, if it means no cost. (And it means no cost.)

@GodofSkype1: You realize that calling everyone that doesn't share your view a 'bunch of morons' only makes you appear childish, especially right after stating you're not a child, right?

Furthermore, I don't see how this game is free to play 'with strings attached'. What strings? I've been playing since shortly after launch, and - aside from the first hour or two - I've never been in need of energy and been unable to pay for it entirely in crowns. I'm over half way to T3, and my sole sources of income have been exploring the Clockworks and selling the materials earned by vastly undercutting my competition. My point is that it really doesn't take all that much to be self-sustaining in terms of energy; thus, the game is entirely free to play, without 'strings'.

As far as I can tell, a large part of the argument against the energy system is that it gives new players the impression that SK is a 'pay-to-win' type game. I strongly disagree with this view of the energy system; instead, I see it as an incentive. Simply put, "Want to keep playing for free? Then stop dying!" If we consider a typical T1 run, with no deaths, and no energy spent on likely unprofitable energy doors, then I think it's reasonable to expect to recoup the energy costs of the run, plus a small profit margin.

However, this only applies to a 'perfect' run. Clearly it's unreasonable to expect new players to be perfect from the get-go, so the energy system must be a newb-deterrent, right?

Wrong.

To illustrate this, let's consider the NES classic, Metroid. That game was Hard. As. ****. You die, a LOT. Does that mean that people didn't play it? No. Does it mean that you sometimes need to step away from the game because you just died for the thousandth time on the same enemy and you can almost feel it taunting you and WHY IS THIS GAME SO HARD AAARGH - in a word, yes. But the challenge is all part of the fun!

The only other complaint about the energy system is that it is player-driven, and so the cost per 100 CE is subject to change. To quote GodofSkype1 here, "Imagine paying 12000CR for a mere 100CE while trying to run T1 as a newb?" To me, this is unimaginable; I can't honestly see the cost of 100 CE rising much above what you can make from a T1 run. Consider the following model:

-SK launches; huge influx of new players, consequently high demand for CE
-Price of CE rises due to high demand, as is expected
-Price of CE rises to above what T1 players are able to afford; the number of players that can afford CE through crowns drops significantly
-Demand for CE drops considerably as less people can afford it, and those who can are more reluctant to do so
-Price of CE drops to match the demand, and now T1 players can afford CE
-Rinse and repeat

The only reason CE became so expensive in the preview (over 10k crowns per 100 CE? Madness!) is because it was a closed preview. This means no new players are coming in, and so the number of players doing T1 runs eventually drops to near-zero. The average wealth of the in-game population becomes very high as most players are T3, and so the CE prices reflect that.

TL:DR version - Energy prices and housing prices can be thought of as very similar. If everyone in the world made $1 a day, then houses wouldn't be very expensive. Similarly, if a large portion of the in-game population has T1-level income, the price of CE isn't going to rise to far above what they can afford.

Sorry if my post seems a little scatter-brained; insomnia-induced sleep deprivation tends to do that to a guy. :P

Needs more energy...

God of Skype - again, your point only makes any sense if we accept your definition of "free to play". About 95% of the known universe recognizes that "free to play" games have some model of income generation, and in the context of F2P MMOs, Spiral Knights is remarkably liberal with the content it affords to non-paying players.

As in, all of it. You can get all of the content. Without paying. For free.

So yeah, this moron is done with this topic. Peace dude! Remember what I told you about books.

To Be Honest Every Game That Is Described As Free-To-Play Has A Sort Of Market Or Subscription Or A Way That Members Have To Pay With Real-Life Money. MMOS are Made By Companies They Make Them To Make Money. Yes Ce Might Be Expenisve In Terms Of Crowns But tHat Is So It Encourages More People To Pay So The Company Can Get Money. If Yur Not happy with THe Company Making Money Go Play SOmething Else. Who wants Yo Play A Game For 8 Hours.. You Have Lives Don't You.

Let's make this easy.

Show us these "Free with no strings attached" advertisements.

Oh God Arm64 Do You Really Have To Format Your Post Like That???

(i suppose i am in no position to criticize since i have a tendency to write in all lowercase, but its far less eye-bleeding than "Every Word Is A Proper Noun" or "ALL CAPS YELLING")

Does it really matter how I format my posts...

Actually it is really grating on one's nerves if you're used to proper formatting. It's like being an English doctorate and getting chatspeak messages from your friends.

See, was it so hard to NOT post like that? Seems to me it takes far more effort to hit shift at the start of every single word than just when you're supposed to (or not at all).

Unless you use some sort of Annoy-O-Tron 3000 autoformatter..

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Slaxer: stop trollin'!

3700 crowns per 100 CE is expensive, but not prohibitively so. A new player gets 200 Mist for free; as long as you introduce them to buying Energy for money or for crowns, they can play for as long as they want. Is the profit margin low for hardcore solo gamers that are self-funding their CE in T1? Yes, but only if you completely exclude getting carried into T2 after joining a guild or meeting a friend.

One of our T1 gates starts with the Iron Gate Arena. If you farm that arena, you're getting 600 crowns for 10 Energy, assuming no deaths (which isn't hard since that arena is awfully easy). That's a profit of 2300 every 100 CE even when self-funding. All I'm saying is, the means to provide for yourself exists.

When 100 CE reaches 5k crowns*, I'll see your point, but as things are now, I don't see the problem.

First off this game is far from F2P. Unless you count "Playing" to be standing around Haven with your thumb up your sphincter waiting for your ME to regen or for someone to sell you CE, because I certainly don't. Secondly, the economy is going to continually spiral down into the gutter for the same reason it does in every game: Most of you are 12 and have no concept how these things work. Now before we get onto the subject of why a grown man is playing online games let's take a basic look at the market:

Chump A posts a buy order for 3500 Crowns to get 100 CE.
Chump B wants his CE -right fracking now- and knows that he can get it faster if he just oubids Chump A, so he posts it for 3501 Crowns.
Later on down the line Chump Q sees that the top post is now offering 3726 Crowns for 100 CE, and thinks "Well I -really need that CE and cannot possibly wait 30 extra seconds- so I'm just going to post an offer of 3727 Crowns! It's just one Crown, what's the worst that can happen!"

The only way for this to be remedied is for A) 3Rings to admit they're a P2P and just start a fracking subscription fee or B) people to learn some basic economics that anyone who has ever shopped without mommy and daddie's money has already long since figured out.

And with that, I'm done ranting. I'm off to do something more entertaining than sitting around Haven with my thumb up my sphincter.

You're right, to a degree. That is how lazy internet economics works. However at a certain point people won't be able to afford being that liberal with their crowns and the market price will stop inflating. It will eventually settle and not improve until the majority can afford it.

hasn't the market been pretty stable the last few days? I haven't checked it this morning but by my accounts its been hovering between 3.5k and 3.75k

DJ - I've noticed the same thing. Two days ago bought 100E for 3600cr and it's been in and around that price ever since.

It's hard to really say why the market has settled on the current prices but if I had to guess it would be that someone is keeping the prices from going much higher, whether intentionally or not. As I speak there are 150 offers to sell energy at 3800.

Early last week (and into the weekend) prices were hovering between 3150 and 3300. So it's gone up 300 over the weekend at least.

"The only way for this to be remedied is for A) 3Rings to admit they're a P2P and just start a fracking subscription fee or B) people to learn some basic economics that anyone who has ever shopped without mommy and daddie's money has already long since figured out."

or C) someone sells some CE to the buy orders placed, changing the supply/demand ratio and driving the price back down.

Speaking of basic economics, did you fail it?

"It's hard to really say why the market has settled on the current prices but if I had to guess it would be that someone is keeping the prices from going much higher, whether intentionally or not. As I speak there are 150 offers to sell energy at 3800."

Hmm, perhaps the prices have settled there because people won't pay much more than 3800 for CE, and people are willing to buy CE for money if they can sell it for that price.

Nah, it must be some guy controlling the market. Everyone knows that no one wants to sell CE, so the market is just going to go up and up.

I suspect some rich player who has lots of crowns buying all the lower priced CE and reposting a much higher Offer in a mass amount to gain major profit. Cause it seems every time when I see a fixed energy price Its always in a stack of 10 or more offers. Or maybe there is a group of people scheming in this together . . .

Or there are just that many people playing. While I can't speak for every wealthy player (if I'm not being too presumption in considering myself wealthy) your perspective on the market changes a lot when you have money. I'll give some examples.

In the first week or two of the game's release I played the energy market a lot putting up bids to buy and sell. It was profitable (and still remains so today actually) because you basically make around 50-150 Crowns for each 100 energy bought then sold. I no longer do this because it's not really worth the minimal amount of time or effort for me to do so for the little profit it gives.

Earlier in this thread someone said that a lot of people might be holding onto their massive amounts of energy waiting for the price to get higher. That is normally pretty sound logic and it made sense to me when I read it. Looking at things now that I have a lot of energy, the truth is a lot simpler. I have a lot of energy I don't really use much of right now but, honestly, unless I need crowns soon I just don't care enough to bother turning it into crowns. I don't even really pay much attention to the market or the value of crowns/energy anymore. When I need crowns, I sell some energy for whatever it's going for. When you have a lot of something, you really care less about how much a small fraction of what you have is worth.

I don't really feel like contributing much more to this, but a note does need to be made.

"Free to play" means you are free to play the game. It doesn't mean all the features are obtainable

Actually to use a definition from wikipedia
"Free-to-play (F2P, FTP) refers to any game that has an option of allowing its players to play without paying. Some of these games have both a free version and a Pay to Play version that offers the full version of the game and all of the updates."

Free to play is more like an unlimited trial. You can play this game forever without paying. You just may not be able to get as far as you like. At least in this game, you can still succeed because other people are paying for it. And yes, it's meant to draw you in so you may want to pay later, but there is nothing in this game that "makes" you pay. Even should CE reach a price of 10000 (and I definitely wouldn't be able to afford that), the game would still be free to play by definition. (of course I may have to quit if that happened but even then...the game is still F2P).

It's defined that way because you people let it be

That's the same with any definition. People create language and meanings and associate whatever they want with it. Whatever is the most popular one rules over all. The very words you're reading right now that you understand was also decided by a large number of "you people". Take up further issues with our ancestors.

Besides, games where you truly get the full thing without anything extra being held back are called "freeware". Though that really only applies to downloadable games since practically no online game in existence gives you the full thing without some sort of pay incentive.

But be that as it may, you can't go around saying the game is not free to play when it matches the most popular definition for what is free to play. Language is meant to be modified however, but you'd need a large number of people to actually buy your new definition.
You may come up with your own term though if you like. But until then, Free to play remains defined as above. And this game fits that definition.

Also, would it be too much if I used the Tropic Thunder joke "What do you mean 'you people'?"

God of Skype, this is what I mean by "entitlement". You have your own, very specific definition of what "Free to Play" means. And then this game doesn't conform to that specific definition, so you consider it false advertising.

"Free to Play" is an industry term that has a defined and accepted meaning. You're complaining that the whole world isn't changing their definition of "Free to Play" in order to match yours? And it's everyone else is wrong, and you're right? Get over, bro.

Spiral Knights isn't going to bow to your will. The internet gaming industry at large won't bow to your will. And you can be sure that language itself won't either.