Swarm Stuff, Core Stuff, related mechanics (moved to GY due to unpleasant interactions)
Sat, 05/16/2015 - 20:00
The general hope of this idea is to encourage players to complete the core levels together and smell the roses while doing so.
Add 1-3 (random quantity generation) clear/white-ish/glass mineral spires near loot caches. These always drop 5 medium minerals (one of every color and never any other size) when mined and can be completely mined in one shield bash hit or 5 hits of something else. I like to think that different properties of the mineral "prism" manifest when exposed to air and the energy of a shield bash, like a weird chemical reaction, but since they're in the core they are pure and not stuck in any one color like they are outside the core. Like stem cells I guess. This shield bash quirk is just for fun - it doesn't really matter. Pick one mineral (as always) to carry to the end. Bring friends to get more per level. Mining these minerals sounds like hitting glass, it goes "chink chink chink chink chink (one per color)" really fast and visibly shards off/shrinks when struck by the bash (similar to the noise you get when hitting invincible enemies but higher pitched). If you mine it without the bash, each hit will cause one of the possible minerals to be spit out, so you can stop once the color you want comes out I guess.
New Trinkets:
We'd like to think lost things can be found again. Perhaps they are not as far gone as they seem.
These rings allow you to channel righteous janitor powers through your fingers into your weapons. There are a few types of purifier trinkets that grant different effects and influence combat with The Swarm. Each ring grants a 50% chance for the below. Wear two of the same for 100% get! Or combine them for chances at different awesome cleaning skills at the same time.
Balance: reduce % chance to be usable for a solo player - maybe 12.5%? - but have effects stack for team to encourage large squads of level clearing, so four players each with two rings increases it to a perfect 100% if they're all the same ring. As the new levels are now, people are more interested in speeding through the levels instead of fighting because the monsters don't drop loot, so a lot of the new content is missed or ignored in a rush to get deep for the treasure boxes, which makes me sad. I mean I get why the monsters don't drop loot lore-wise, but as a game to play (vs to read about), it's nooooot the best way to do things. I tried to keep the following trinkets somewhat in-line with the general "swarm is nothing but greed and corruption" idea.
Acquisition: Probably just make these a rare drop from loot boxes in the core.
The rings are pretty function-exclusive, which is something I like to avoid in general. Maybe they could harmonize with Cradle and its clockworks, each moderately increasing the chance to mine fat minerals from single-color mineral spires outside of the core.
1) Vindicator Ring
50% to "1HKO" a swarm entity with charge - this turns it into a Void Soul, and it will attack you as such, but it's much more powerful than the wandering void souls that bother you normally - often 1HKOing you too. It's both vanquished and enraged by all the tuned energy in your charge attack. Hit and dodge 'em, knights! Dashing won't make them vanish like other souls - they're more like bombies than souls really. But still look like souls for the idea. Clear areas faster with a lot more risk - this might encourage players to get into the core more in the future, but doesn't exactly solve the rushing problem on its own.
EDIT: the swarm entity needs to be very tough. Emphasis on "not being a normal soul." Solutions include transformation occurring at the end of a charge sequence only, invulnerability frames, or total invulnerability until the soul executes its explosion.
2) Purifier Ring
50% chance to purify a swarm entity (causes monster to return to whatever it was before getting corrupted, it will then turn into an ally soul and wander off-screen) if you manage to kill the swarmling with a charge attack. As it turns into a soul, it has a 5% chance to drop 100cr (two gold coins). Good job! Get paid with good feels AND hard cash! This is entirely different than the vindicator ring - you gotta work to deplete its hp, not rely on chance to do it for you.
EDIT: for clarity, the transformation is only an aesthetic. The point of the purifier ring is to make you feel good for cleaning the swarm - both your conscience and your wallet should feel good.
3) Embolizer Ring
50% for enemy to drop a single heart if defeated with charge. Gross. Has no effect on normal heart chances, kitty battle sprite's stuff, or other factors.
EDIT: this is a nerfed version of sera's HA. Sera's HA gives defense orbs or explosions in ultimate form. This would only drop single (1 pip) hearts from enemies that rarely drop hearts, and nothing else. This should be used in junction with other trinkets to increase the survivability of a squad with agreed-upon goals.
5) Weeder Ring
50% chance to disable a swarm turret for 7-10 seconds (indicated by the turret turning completely black for the duration) if it's struck with a charge attack. Bombs away! Too bad weeds always grow back if you can't get the roots, and we can't seem to get to the bottom of these persistent turrets.
EDIT: solution for keeping this mechanic from being too powerful: one charge knocks the turret out for X seconds. Hitting the turret again will enable it to function normally.
EDIT: instead of trinkets (rings), call these sprite abilities. We could use more ideas on this front.
If the Vindicator and Purifier rings are used together, and the 1hko chance registers, the pure soul will always be produced but not drop coins because the KO-tuned charge energy brings out intense greed but also purifies (freeing the poor thing from said greed) a moment later. Other effects are in sync and can stack on top of each other. I probably contradicted myself somewhere in here - feedback and thoughts please!
A thought: what if it turns out the swarm only shows us what it thinks we want to see...and the "void" things we fight aren't actually physically corrupted monsters, just visceral embodiments of greed that take on a familiar form, like a mental cookie-cutter, trying to communicate with us in a manipulative way. I often wonder why we don't see greavers, chromas, etc. If this is the case, these trinkets don't make a ton of sense.
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 14:31
#2
:/
Well, they'd be hard to get. The point isn't to make things easier (sorry if that wasn't clear), but to encourage dynamic playability in the long-term. The impact of the "sharp content" gets pretty dull very fast - but this way you'd get to experience it raw at least once (if you're extremely lucky - most players won't find trinkets right away, and searching for them would bring them into the level, well, radiants do that, but this could be a big magnet) and then enjoy the same content in a new way later. It's similar to witnessing cutscenes over and over. Great...then very tedious and more annoying than scary. I'd like the enjoyable playtime provided by the effort devs put into this sort of thing to last longer than a week or two.
It would also be nice to "help the sleeper" by "cleaning up the swarm" in some way that isn't just smacking them. Though that seems to be somewhat effective in the short-term. What if we had special areas with spawners that generate unique pickups (or w/e) that when thrown at the swarm clean them up, instead of trinkets? These special spawners could show up in certain map segments in the levels we have now as a sort of foreshadowing and then be central to a new level. Something similar to the sprite fountains I think...
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 16:24
#3
i agree!
I agree with you dracora -speaking. Going over rushed content is basically super boring unless there is an incentive to stay in the thick of it for a reward. I also feel i completely agree with you that we need mission only pick ups. Like having a pick up that is designated for that mision only and once were done, we give that pick up back to the knight association. This way, some missions can vary greatly from others. Would be really awesome, like having a gas mask, or armor robotic suit, or a mission that has hover pads sense there is no ground to stand on, only water under our knight feet or make it more complicated where we can have 2 to 3 things we can pick up in that mission that could help us greately, but at the same time we can pass through the content without those pick ups, but it would be much more difficult. This would seriously enhance the complexity in the game making it much more interesting in my opinion.
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 19:40
#4
If the radiants weren't
If the radiants weren't there, people would not replay the mission, period. Adding in equipment drops that are only effective in that level won't increase inventiveness to play it. That's like adding a "DMG bonus vs Collector: Maximum!" trinket as a drop during Breaking in the Recruits. No-one plays that level anyway because of its miserable payout, and thus the trinket will do nothing.
The impact of the "sharp content" gets pretty dull very fast
This is because people play the crap out of it, find the meta for the area, and in general get more practiced at the level.
This is good, this supports community study and often in the case of team metas like Blitz+Shiver, cooperation.
Adding in equipment that is overpowered for a section not only makes it far easier for those running it for the first time, it also messes with the meta by buffing it (The last thing the meta needs is buffing!), and makes the content yawnable. Not in the way that its "boring" or "old", but because four players running these trinkets plus meta weapons will remove any challenge from the whole ordeal. At least in FSC there is Shadowfire, Traps, and Wheels you have to avoid. Your suggestion is basically saying "charge spam to remove any danger, even traps that would normally shoot at you for standing still." How does this make any sense balance-wise? You can't charge spam Blitz Needle in FSC: doing so will get you killed. Why are you suggesting to make it easier to do in a supposedly harder mission?
We have a huge arsenal of weapons at our disposal already, the levels become stagnant because people find the "meta loadout" and use it into the ground. Adding trinkets won't change this, all it will do is make these meta weapons even more powerful for these levels because your trinkets affect all equipped weapons, not just Winmillions or Neutralizers.
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 20:31
#5
@Hexzyle
Again - these trinkets are not meant to make things easier at all, just change mechanics in a place that's already strange and reward effort while speeding things up (I love MSI, but this isn't the same. Just sayin I love it). Don't skim ideas!
Charge spam will NOT simply/easily remove danger (more than it already does anyway) - for the Vindicator trinket, it drastically increases danger for a few moments, and for the rest of the trinkets it simply makes the effort of landing a charge pay off - and all of them are supposed to make your time in the core more efficient/worthwhile, not babymode it up.
Some turrets even move around in this place! it's freaky, not sure if everyone's seen that yet, they follow you. I hope to see more of that. And with all the knockback it's hard to land a charge on something you would not normally bother hitting because it's not worth it unless you have something like this - why would I try to disable a turret when I can kill everything else to move forward? Oh, if it helps the team, sure.
For some players, this will make a few things easier, for others, it will actually make things much harder because it forces habit changes and distracts from normal play behavior. I would never suggest an item that makes an end-game level more pathetic, or users too OP - this is supposed to change it up, not damp it down. Games where you are god get boring within hours or even minutes - and I certainly don't want to turn SK into one of those games.
I feel like the idea was skimmed instead of read thoroughly, since these replies actually do not pertain logically to the suggestion's mechanics - especially this one: because four players running these trinkets plus meta weapons will remove any challenge from the whole ordeal. That just doesn't make sense. If anything the Vindicator ring increases challenge while picking up the play pace, and the others don't affect combat, just drops, oh except the turret ring I suppose, but there's little incentive to invest and use that item while solo. So I concede to Hex's point regarding this trinket.
thus the trinket will do nothing. - one of them makes the monsters drop cr. another kills them quickly. If you work with a team, that could pay off very quickly and make the effort devs put into this last a lot longer. EDIT for clarity: But you have to communicate so you don't nullify the efforts of each other. Perhaps bigger swarmlings could drop more? So don't use vindicator on those, even though it makes more sense to take out the heavy hitting baddies first. Aha! Clear fast and in a focused planned manner.
Adding in equipment drops that are only effective in that level won't increase inventiveness to play it. - as a player that desires these things, I fully disagree. And another poster seems to agree with me too - "Going over rushed content is basically super boring unless there is an incentive to stay in the thick of it for a reward" -Blandaxt
But I understand Hex's point. I try to fix it in most of my suggestions - hence the part of my post that mentions the mineral mining chance.
EDIT: format for block of text/replies
What are your thoughts on the pickup/spawner idea? If it's like sprite water, it's limited to a degree, but pickups can be carried quite a ways and used as needed.
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 20:10
#6
Feedback from a friend:
A friend's feedback (Dracora-Speaking speaking for them):
-Vindicator: 1HKOing players is an undesirable OP effect
-I like the crown drop potential
-please use this tileset more in general
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 22:38
#7
You think I skimmed? >.>
Fine, lets disassemble these trinkets piece by piece then.
Vindicator Ring
So it gives a 50% chance to OHKO a mob? Is this on a per-hit basis, or a per-charge basis? If it's the former, pretty much anything anywhere near a Blitz charge will be immediately converted into a vindicator soul, and then a second blitz bullet will come along and destroy it almost immediately.
If it's the latter, a single Nitronome blast, at random, will immediately convert everything within its blast into vindicator souls. If the demo is chaining them correctly, the second Nitronome will disintegrate all the souls.
Basically, Souls are very little threat on their own. They only really annoy sword users because they cannot focus on the souls, and the mobs they're attacking at the same time. A gunner with a half-decent aim can shoot them out of the sky, and a demo tends to obliterate them passively.
Purifier Ring
causes monster to return to whatever it was before getting corrupted, it will then turn into an ally soul and wander off-screen
What? Does it turn into a monster? Or does it turn into an "ally soul", whatever that is? What is the condition that must be fulfilled to trigger the "then" "turns into an ally soul" from "whatever it was before getting corruption"
Same issues with above, charges hitting a large number of times, or a large number of mobs, (which mind you, is 90% of charge attacks) will mass-apply these effects.
Embolizer Ring
This is basically what the Seraphynx's heart attack does, except all the time, and without the need to spend a bazillion minerals and materials on levelling up your Sprite to a reasonable level.
Weeder Ring
Everyone in one corner of the final arena, charge spamming. GG.
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 11:22
#8
you....
@hexyle:
I am suggesting a pick up you can only get in one level and after you complete that level you leave that pick there and continue and you say that is not a good incentive?
So if i reach a level and in that level my knight gets to ride a bike around that level while being chased by a hoard of monsters also on their own wheels, is that not a unique item that i would not find on any other levels? I feel you are thinking bout something else while i am thiking another way. Oh well, if you disagree that is fine. I just hope you get my point and see the direction i am facing.
Also hexyle, i'm glad your back. But i feel you really are never going to at least look at my idea "Blandaxt compound ideas". Makes me sad that all my months work went to waste. Oh well, guess that's just how the cookie crumbles. I'll keep it moving.
@dracora-speaking: I completely agree with your post, and i welcome the change instead of the stale run through and hope we survive. I also welcome the heart drop. Killing the monster that drop nothing feels like exercising. After your done exercising, all your left with is a sore body. But with the heart drop chance, i feel like there is a chance for me to get an extra boost of power and be able to exercise longer so i can push my body to further heights and overcome my limit. Keep up the good ideas.
Sun, 05/17/2015 - 23:40
#9
One last try
Eh well, most of the time, corner camping doesn't actually work, especially in levels like grinchlin assault and other "tough" areas. Most projectiles and interrupts prove to be too problematic. Even with three impenetrable walls around you in the Unknown Passage and constant bomb spamming it doesn't always work out. This is kind of a tangent discussion to this thread. But saying "sit in a corner charge spamming" doesn't fly for me, cause it doesn't actually usually fly. Anyway...
IMO we can't really hash out more than what's already been said about the trinkets without actually using them in the field. I guess I could have explained the trinkets better in the OP (clearly I should have, mahbad) - if we tested them in the preview server, I'm sure we could work out the kinks. If a picture's worth a thousand words (most people don't like the length of my posts, and this one I consider to be short), how many words are a few test sessions worth?
But again, these mechanics don't have to be trinkets - I'm far more interested in how we can "help the sleeper" and get down to the idea of Cradle and its clockworks defending itself against a giant, disgusting parasite. So let's move on to the pickup/spawner idea that people seem to like - these could grant effects similar to the trinkets described, and I'd like to read more ideas about other possible "righteous janitor powers." Well, if we want to keep talking about improving the future usage of this tileset. I'm sure the devs already have plans. But it's fun to talk!
Blandaxt: interesting heart/exercise relation. I try to track of my ideas - here's a list of them.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 03:57
#10
Look, I'm all for trinkets that have bonus effects. But not trinkets that take abilities away from enemies. We should be increasing our own potential strategies, not dumbing down the enemy.
I admit we can never know how something will really work until it's put into practice. But we can at least try to iron out theoretical problems while we have the chance. The ones we can, anyway. Some ideas are just unrescuable because they add unquantifiable effects into the game. Quantifiable effects can be balanced by changing the quantity. But only if doing so does not render the item completely impractical. (i.e. Wrench Wand "heal on charge" suggestion cannot be balanced simply by saying "lower the amount healed per charge" because it gets to a point where it's not even worth using the charge)
I'm far more interested in how we can "help the sleeper" and get down to the idea of Cradle and its clockworks defending itself against a giant, disgusting parasite.
This will happen through additional missions (because additional missions have more dialogue), not from Three Rings adding stuff to missions that already exist. You know Three Rings as much as I do: they would rather add new levels instead of balancing the old ones.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 12:21
#11
:|
Okay, a little annoyed now. Stop slapping inaccurate labels onto parts the idea and address what other users want to discuss instead of dismissing them. I'm also a little miffed that the glass minerals haven't even been talked about. But this...this is bothering me quite a bit:
We should be increasing our own potential strategies, not dumbing down the enemy.
This statement is exactly incorrect regarding this idea - the statement itself is legitimate and why I posted the idea in the first place. Well, the weeder ring is indeed very flawed, again, it was an afterthought at the end of the list and we have conceded it's not so great. I fear other players browsing the thread will skim through and dismiss the idea as "someone wanting OP gear again" which not what this thread is about, at all. These trinkets/mechanics are designed to increase user strategy, encourage team play, and force communication, not dumb down the enemy. I'm not sure how this opposite conclusion was reached even with additional explanations, which I could quote thoroughly here from the original post, comment #2, and comment #5, but they would continue to be unread and/or misinterpreted. This rut looks like it cannot be escaped, so I'm just going to drop it and hope someone (with a different perspective than I) proposes solutions. Honestly I feel like this is elaborate trolling, but I don't like sounding accusatory, and I want to avoid making things personal. So I'm choosing to hope that other users read everything.
not from Three Rings adding stuff to missions that already exist. - I never said directly alter the mission (Dreams and Nightmares). In fact, I even said new missions with a small amount of foreshadowing: These special spawners could show up in certain map segments in the levels we have now as a sort of foreshadowing and then be central to a new level. Said map segments are randomly generated (you're even working with me on a related project, as a reminder, Dracora-Speaking's account is Novaster's account because steam is a derptastic derpatron) - I'm sure there's plenty that most players haven't run into yet. I want longevity of this retro-feelin tileset with perhaps a few very special map chunks (like scenario rooms with the pickup/spawner) if we can ever burrow into the core via the arcade. Again, I feel like a lot of what was typed wasn't read.
Yeah... This is why I thought the thread was skimmed. Most annoyingly, the poster has not tried to suggest fixes to the mechanic, instead choosing to dismiss them after nitpicking them with somewhat esoteric factors. But a several points are quite legitimate, especially the charge hits. What should we do to fix? Make the bloated void souls immune to all damage until they explode, forcing knights to treat them like environmental hazards, thus burrowing further into lore? Give the gross things homing exploding projectiles? I'd like to suggest things, but I have already done so, and I want to hear the ideas of others. It's very frustrating - we can't build onto a suggestion without more suggestion blocks. And if we just use my blocks, the city gets boring. There's definitely a problem with the idea - let's hear potential solutions (saying the equivalent of "don't do the mechanic" or calling it "unrescuable" without suggesting fixes is kind of bad practice). I suppose it's my fault for not describing the idea better, which is why I said we'd need to field test 'em, but comment #10 just feels dismissive and thread-killing. Grrr. This thread is supposed to be about the construction of ideas, right? A lot of construction (biological, society, and actual buildings) involves demolition. But it can't just be demolition.
Again, let's talk about what these additional missions could contain, and as we said, we're sure the devs have plans, and as I've said, I don't care if devs don't listen and have already got things done in the background, it's fun to talk. But only if it's talked about in a way that's constructive - criticism is fine, I love it, but saying "don't do the idea"... I mean the entire suggestions forums could just be dismissed with "the devs are gonna do what they're gonna do based on what they've already done." We know! We also know they do sometimes listen/put things in by coincidence - a list of which is maintained. By Hex, actually.
In short - stop interpreting the idea in the opposite way we intended, suggest fixes instead of dismissing the idea (in the suggestion forums I shouldn't have to ask for suggestions), realize the idea is not just about a few minor mechanics, and talk about potential new map segments, minerals, and lore regarding "helping the sleeper."
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 13:36
#12
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
Drak I was looking at this and I was going to be silent but you are so oblivious I have to say this
You may not have INTENDED to make these things OP, and you continuously say that, but you DID, and whether you intended to or not you still did it, and no amount if " this wasnt my intention" will change it, all of these are insanely easy to abuse, and everything hex said is true, even if you dont see it
The mineral idea seems good though, but I don't think its necessary, people will likely already have a maxxed out sprite, and if they don't they will look to a less skill/spark intensive area like FSC if they needed them
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 14:12
#13
Oohnorak
So... do you have any suggestions, Oohnorak/Vohtarak? I seem to recall this user on some of my other threads not really contributing helpfully and insulting me there too. Why make things personal? Calling me oblivious is incorrect and a direct insult. Multiple times in this thread I've conceded. Multiple times in this thread I've acknowledged other viewpoints. I don't really appreciate the first half of comment #12 - it's incorrect, personally hurtful, and does not contribute to the thread. At least Hex supports his claims and does not personally attack. I've actually enjoyed most of this thread until comment #12. No, this is not a big deal, and I'm not in a flood of tears about it or anything, but it should be known that the flavor of comment #12 is quite sour and approaching breakage of forum etiquitte.
" this wasnt [our] intention" will change it - okay. But we can try to change the interpretation if we try to explain ourselves, because I evidently did not do a good job of that. We can change the idea, build on it - if you suggest things. Please. This is a suggestions forum. So suggest things.
You are right about the minerals being a bit pointless. I'd like the game to get a bit more involved in its wayward bits of lore (all these events we have seem so...isolated). Minerals would be a good way to start since they connect everything anyway.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 14:24
#14
The point of an idea
The point of an idea is to be brainstormed. Nitpicking is ok as long as it's creative or helpful in some way shape or form. Saying something is OP then giving absolutely no details or reasoning for your statement is NOT ok.
Like since we discovered that the pet of Parma is still alive, maybe instead of trinkets; the mission could give control of Parma's Scout to the players (or maybe just one player) & that will replace his/her pet for the mission (this idea is already possible since replaying the get-pet missions replaces your current pet with the low~ leveled pet). And Parma's Scout would possess these anti-swarm abilities. Since the dragon/kitty/ghost pets were once robotic-scouts that "adapted" to the clockworks, this wouldn't be so farfetched... Parma's scout could've just adapted to the Swarm/Core.
or each player could get a Scout from each member of AlphaSquad; maybe the beginning of the mission could be like the Lockdown Lockerroom where you would walk into the Beam to pick your class... you would instead walk into the beam to pick which scout you get. Each scout could have different abilities. And would also encourage replay value by trying a different pet. OR each pet could just be the same, just colored differently (I don't think Grantz the Guardian, would be dragging along a pink lil buddy)
I personally wouldn't waste 150ce(300 if you buy both slots) to get a trinketslot for these trinkets, but the idea of making a mission-specific pet might be inticing... but the only downside would be that you'd lose your kitty/ghost/dragon for the duration of the mission.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 14:31
#15
:O
Oh I love the direction this is going now! Spriteaids as comment #14 describes could be much more interesting than trinkets, pickups, or spawners. It would also expose players to more lore with how sprites are influenced by Cradle and its clockworks...especially so close to the core.
I bet the core tastes like raspberries. Which would be bad, I don't like raspberries.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 14:33
#16
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
I don't see how it was a personal attack, stating something over and over again without realizing its pointless is being oblivious, its not personal just facts
Apologies for the considerable length if time it took to post this, I'm on mobile and autocorrect screws up every 2 words
OK, for suggestions, here we go, I havent thought about any but I'll think of things as I go along
1 minerals, as i said they're not needed in general
2 vindicator ring, as was mentioned blitz will immediately Ohko and kill the soul, and I recently acquired a chilling duelist because I don'twant to make an antigua, this makes the souls still too easy
Suggestion: make the ohko possibility take effect after the end of the charge, make it 20 or 25 percent chance instead, have the soul stay in place and do the inflation thing and explode like a timed blast block and make it so that it doesnt disappear when hit
3 I think this wasn't explained well, it looks like it says "if you kill it with a charge it might revert to regular enemy, then immediately turn into a harmless soul" with this way of explaining its only a cosmetic thing with no effect on gameplay, as I said, please explain a bit clearer
4 embolizer, basically a seraphynx skill with no end or cooldown, this itself is unbalanced
Suggestion, 25 percent chance of dropping any sized heart, its a small chance but more balanced as to not make it OP
5 weeder, someone can sit in a corner and spam bombs to make the turret useless while the others kill enemies
Suggestion, make it so that the turret falls asleep or something, and any other hit wakes it up and doesn't allow it to reapply at that same time, and it fires a bullet as it wakes up
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 15:07
#17
Transfer
As a scientist, I have to go through multiple trials.
without realizing its pointless - incorrect, I fully realized this before trial 3 and stated as much. Don't state "facts" in a targeted manner by saying "you" - especially if they're not facts. More than one reader viewed the comment as a personal attack - so, work on that. It's easy to say "you" instead of "the poster" or "people" and call someone "a noun" instead of saying "they've done a verb." I probably have made the mistake several times unintentionally. I see Vohtarak on the forums a lot, and I'd like to not dislike seeing the name when I do. Most of my advisers wonder why I majored in microbio instead of writing. I tend to be picky - but again, wasn't just me.
It seems nobody likes the idea of the mechanics being trinkets - move them to sprite abilities and perhaps a pickup/spawner for those scenario rooms. We'll need more effects to choose from if we go full sprite.
I like these suggestions, though a few were already suggested, they are good. Especially the weeder one - that is very excellent, though a bit like limited-use "freeze," but I don't mind that sort of issue. Regarding the embolizer - sera's HA gives much more than hearts (defense orbs or explosions) in ultimate form. I want to see the heartdrop manipulation mechanic elsewhere in the game. I believe players need to pick and choose between reliability, power, function, and desired goals. Having options that essentially produce the same general results with different levels of intensity and from different sources accomplishes this somewhat.
Any other ideas about how to manipulate the swarm? So far we have three themes (buff, drops, disable) and 4 effects :
-make them more powerful, but for a short period of time
-make them drop some loot (crowns) as a reward for purifying them (assuming the swarm is what we think it is)
-make them drop hearts
-disable them temporarily
On a tangential note, I think that The Sleeper is probably some weird powerful AI program that is like a background runtime thing that can care of Cradle and the core, and the swarm is a sort of greed-virus, but I demand that The Sleeper manifest (or show itself to us) as a sloom with a tophat. Even if slooms themselves don't really sleep, they've certainly been gone for a long time, and are mysterious. I have been reading too much Homestuck. Also slimes are like cells, and cells are simple yet complicated, and the basis for many things (as we know it anyway), so this seems appropriate.
I have edited the OP based on feedback.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 15:18
#18
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
"sera's HA gives much more than hearts (defense orbs or explosions) in ultimate form"
defense orbs arent very noticeable in the way of actual defense and the explosions are bugged and are purely graphical
@the entire first paragraph
you are the only person who thinks the oblivious comment in a personal attack on this thread, and i say "you" because that comment was a direct response to your constantly repeating yourself of the phrases that mean exactly "i didnt intend it to be this way so you are reading it wrong", i was saying that you need to explain how it is being read wrong in a way so people will understand exactly what you mean and be able to properly respond to the issue that is being discussed
lets just cancel this conversation as it is evidently derailing this thread by a bit and appears to be adding unneccesary strife to the debate
also, i still need clarification on the purifier ring, as i said it appears to be a purely graphical change in gameplay
about the trinkets/pickups/whatever, i think a fitting place for them is possibly a new hotbar slot (maybe added to the right side of the vitapod slot) that holds one modifier at a time (these can be swapped out, or not to force people to change their ways) allowing for abilities like this to be added to regular levels in the game and add new features which can be used to change fighting styles and other aspects of gameplay, these might reset each depth, this seems like a better and possibly more popular alternative to paying 150 energy a month for trinkets that will only be used in a couple places
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 16:54
#19
:/
Mumalot viewed that as an insult too, but evidently didn't say so in his comment. Oh well. I don't want to shove words into peoples' fingers, so I don't want to rely on that - just know I'm not the only one, I wouldn't say so if I weren't. But even if I were the only one, a person should still consider how the use of words can make others feel. So strife can be entirely avoided. An apology would be nice, but wouldn't mean much if the person apologizng doesn't feel in the wrong. Is it my fault for reacting? Sure. There's a lot of misinterpretation from everyone going on in this thread it seems. I want the "conversation" to be cancelled on grounds of an understanding, not frustration and lack of considering the opinions of others.
defense orbs arent very noticeable in the way of actual defense and the explosions are bugged and are purely graphical
Moot points. The intent is that they have levels of intensity with slightly different function. As I've already said, I think players need more options regarding a given mechanic, bugged or not. Things can always be improved. Let's pretend they function as intended at the moment.
I clarified the purifier in the OP with the word "aesthetic." For more clarity, "aesthetic" means "concerned with beauty" and is used very often in games and other places to mean "a visual that has no bearing on function." I do not wish to use a different word because this one gets the point across on many levels, well, as long as its meaning is understood.
I wouldn't want to mess with the HUD. One of the times OOO did a "ui update" we got a huge portrait and grrrrrrah I really dislike that thing. I'm thinking since the idea is leaning towards parma's scout, and that thing is similar to E-class battle sprites and simple, each one could have one move, instead of three moves per sprite. They could also run on auto and follow you like a combat ally instead of replacing the player's sprite. Auto can be annoying though, and might not be available when you need it due to cooldowns - so a blend between a command hotkey and AI would be nice. Toggle auto?
Actually I'd really appreciate a toggle auto option for any NPC combat ally. Those low-dmg high-knockback attacks of theirs are soooooooooooooo bleh. Just follow me and absorb damage like a good punching bag. For the Eclass AS sprites, they wouldn't absorb dmg of course, just like our sprites seem to be extremely uninteresting to our enemies.
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 19:21
#20
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
I found the cancellation of that dispute to be on the grounds of avoiding any issues before they actually arise
And if we're acting as if everything works, the trinket still makes seraphynx useless as it stands with your original idea, same thing basically with no cool down, the idea is great but the execution needed a Nerf
Aesthetic, completely forgot about that word, kinda wished I used it earlier, the words I was using were, awkward, to say the least
And if this was purely aesthetic, I can't think of anyone who would give up a heart trinket/pickup just to see that
The ui change isn't a complete overhaul, just a single box, OOO is perfectly capable of adding boxes, as seen with the sprite update, and I don't see how it would work as a battlesprite, "hey I'm a tool that lore says to never leave my owners side even in death, but somehow I'll follow you instead, just ignore that you found me alone in this hostile environment with no other signs of life", not meaning to be rude, but you said you wanted lore, this conflicts with already existing constraints, and with new sprite skills you still need an indicator of which one they have, so a new box in the toolbar is still the best way to go
Toggleable auto for NPCs is an idea I fully support, but that would be best kept in its own thread
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 20:18
#21
@Dracora-Speaking
Most annoyingly, the poster has not tried to suggest fixes to the mechanic
Because I hadn't come up with anything. Additionally I was not fond of the general idea, so it certainly wasn't something I was excited to suggest fixes for, since when you stack multiple addendums and quirks onto equipment, you just end up making it overly difficult to use, and confusing all but the most senior users of that gear. (Example: Ask any person about poison and see if they can tell you the three things it does to monsters off the top of their head. I know no-one who can answer this correctly, save people who already use Poison weapons, and even then...)
I'm also a little miffed that the glass minerals haven't even been talked about. But this...this is bothering me quite a bit
Mon, 05/18/2015 - 22:09
#22
Feedback
Ah I see. I don't like to come to the table with just vegetables, but that's me. Sorry for making a fuss. Obviously the most important thing about poison is that it produces green fart bubbles.
What about the idea of E-class-looking battle sprites (belonging to the Alpha Squad and lended to players to complete tasks to aid the Sleeper) as toggle-able allies that have one ability. These abilities would grant effects similar to the mechanics discussed or something new. These entities specifically aid in new missions and areas related to the core. This is along the lines of "one area, one special mechanic." Like how nature sprites are associated with the firestorm citadel, or carrying presents with "save winterfest." More npcs could have sprites to enrich the game...Biscotti could have a levitating cupcake of evil. Just...for "fun."
As far as conflicting with lore, parma's scout seems to be pretty far away from her - that's not my doing and I also find it strange (maybe cause it's Eclass and not like ours). Or Parma's a witch from His Dark Materials! Just going with it. EDIT (2x): let's make sure it's known that the Alpha Squad members are controlling their sprites from afar, talking through them as well as telling them to attack. There we go. That also fits into the toggle thing vs. AI.
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 03:41
#23
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
A single lore inconsistency shouldn't be a valid excuse for more, actually this specific example doesn't really prove anything
the sprite has a hacked aura, so its more likely to have been tampered with to stay put rather than parma saying "stay here little guy"
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 08:00
#24
O.o
I really don't think it's all that inconsistent. Sure, I think it's strange, but only in context. Again, it's likely not a full battle sprite like the ones we use. It's just a "scout" that has the appearance of an e-class sprite. Thus it can have different properties and not be perfectly in-sync with a minor bit of lore that was phrased to sound epic for players. It's certainly not a reason to deny development of interesting gameplay, especially with all the wayward lore we have to deal with already. I'm wondering if I should word the wiki to be more clear on this matter.
Different properties include being able to be controlled from a distance, which is really not that far-out or magic/impossible, I mean really irl we have toys that do that. I'm 99.9% sure that Parma told it to stay there, as it is a scout, and she is a recon, and she talks through it to us when we reach the Refuge (I've uploaded said dialogue to the wiki). It completely fits her role to be able to do that. The aura and wings are likely just aesthetics that OOO put on there to look cool, I doubt that the minor hacked effect has anything to do with something or someone (even her) tampering with the scout. It's a scout. It's acting like a scout. Nothing weird there.
This would be a way for the devs to have us interact with the Alpha Squad without revealing much more about the alpha squad, keeping them mysterious for a bit longer while moving the story forward and giving knights things to do that have a greater purpose than collecting loot and decorating ourselves with...hacked auras.
I'm thinking each alpha squad member should have a sprite with abilities (or one major ability) that reflect the role of that member. Parma has a scout, so it can go quite a distance and perhaps warn players of danger and find weaknesses, allowing something similar to a critical hit (vindicator mechanics). Other sprites might not have that long-distance control ability, but I don't like to limit things in that way. We could even encounter Grantz' sprite wandering around lost - remember that enemies don't target sprites in-game, so what would it do after its master fell? Does a bit of the master's personality remain in the sprite, influencing AI? Or OOO could just make it so it follows its master's footsteps and self destructs. The technician could have the weeder mechanics, the guardian (granz) would have the embolizer (I always associate guardians with health because of the seraphynx - also, assuming the sprite is around after Grantz fell), and the leader would have the purifier, as he is the leader who decided to help the sleeper on what seems to be a constant basis, and to me that means pushing the swarm back by purifying what has been corrupted. Or someone else could come up with different effects that they feel fit a lot better with these roles.
We could even find Rulen by locating his sprite first.
I'm excited to see what OOO decides to do.
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 11:43
#25
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
I'm talking about the game as a whole in regards to how these modifiers should be implemented, there, I said it directly, you can't miss it now
It would be far better as just modifiers we pick up for this to be implemented so that this feature isn't specifically restricted to a couple levels, allowing for new ideas and more variety
And about lore, this is painful to have to explain, alpha squad disappeared with their sprites, the only one we see is Parma's, and if we do find other sprites they would certainly tell us about things and add lore, but just get picked up and used as an item? definitely not, if this was to occur Parma's scout would have been moving around looking for us instead of just sitting at the very end like we see now
And please explain how finding a sprite that does nothing but add another skill "moves the story along", unless you actually add dialogue or specific hints, it adds as much lore as finding an auto turret does
And about grantz, look again at already established lore, morlin specifically states that they stay by you even in death, so wherever the sprite is, its either with a healed grantz or hovering over his dead body/gravestone
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 11:47
#26
Explain?
this is painful to have to explain: this sounds condescending. You're "explaining" something that doesn't make sense with the current status of the lore. I'm referencing stuff directly from in-game, Vohtarak, and using it as a foundation for this idea. In case you've not gone through the new missions yet, you can see the dialogue on the wiki. For one so concerned with lore, the comments seem lacking. You should read the dialogue with Parma's Scout here. It's in the show/hide box. We know that Parma is "in a safe place," Euclid is fighting for The Sleeper, Grantz went down fighting against the swarm, and Rulen went missing shortly after.
And about grantz, look again at already established lore, morlin specifically states that they stay by you even in death, so wherever the sprite is, its either with a healed grantz or hovering over his dead body/gravestone- yes, but what if his sprite is just a sprite/robot, and not like ours? Hence the possibility I listed. This still fits with my other option too - we'd find it wandering around, lost (likely by his dead body, or wherever the body was taken from if it was, obviously).
Perhaps reading current in-game stuff would be a smart thing to do before coming in here and quibbling about lore. That being said, I'm going to have to graveyard this thread - it's just too full of condescending arguing and frankly, it isn't fun to talk with someone so sour, sorry.
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 11:52
#27
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
I'm stating exactly what's in game too, and the parts I'm attempting to make you figure out aren't possible are your inferences and your personal beliefs, I've read all the lore, and I know what I'm talking about, I'm not trying to disprove stated facts, I'm using stated facts to disprove some things that specifically conflict with them
"Condescending" I'm really not, if you think that was, then that post you just made was too, and for someone who acts like he should be giving me links to things I've already read, you don't seem to follow it yourself
Edit, if sprites move near a body "lost" then why do they stay absolutely still when players die? No, it doesn't fit what you been said
And before you graveyard this, please explain exactly why you think I'm being "sour" or anything like that, and you're not, the only difference in what we've said that I noticed is that you use more words to convey an idea, but using less words definitely doesn't make someone have a less positive tone or whatever
Tue, 05/19/2015 - 13:50
#28
i feel...
I feel that the sprite pick up should be an optional pick up to try out that core enhanced adapted npc sprite. I don't think it should be automatic. I think having the old system where it just replaces our pet is fine. And as long as we can just go back to that check point after trying out the new pet and switch back if we don't like it. Also i totally agree with you dracora that a bullet meat shield would be much more apreciated then the current npc aids we have.
Now about the minerals, i feel that yes they do all connect to the core mechanics of the game and define some of it's damage types. But more importantly, i'm so dispointed at what the core has to bring. Why? Because all of us knight have been gathering minerals like crazy in the past to get the core to open. So where the heck did all those minerals go? I mean why did OOO not incorperate the minerals into a direct core only mechanic that us players can do at the core once we encounter them? Hahahh, mean what is the point of gathering minerals anymore if it was not to open the core? I mean why do qe find minerals at the core. I just feel there are too much jnanswered questions and too many unsupported functions. Anyway this is turning into a rant and well i have too much gripe inside me at how disapointing the core mission was. But, i feel it matches OOO in a way where we just not suppose to expect much even if it took 2 to 3 years for OOO to think of an idea of what is inside the core. I mean the current core is pretty cool, but it only reached about 40 to 50 percent of my expectations. Sigh.....anyway i like your mineral idea dracora, but i can't see other things that it could connect Into besides tbe fact that we knights use to deposit minerals into the gates to use that surge of energy to open the core. your idea could connect into our sprites, but i can't see the connection at the moment.
I feel like the last thing we need is to remove the difficulty and pure horror from the overarching, ultimate antagonist of the game.
There's no "50% less damage from shadowfire" trinket, or "Extinguish Vanaduke's orbs with attacks" trinket. I think more creative trinkets something along the lines of this would be nice, but not as a belt sander for the sharpest content in the game.