Fix the Spur line
Wed, 06/10/2015 - 07:26
The Spur and it's line are fun but it is seriously flawed.
Serious Problems:
Charge disintegrates if your back is to a wall.
Charge can be aimed after you release it. (Your sword swings one way but the disk can fly another way)
Charge will not work if you shield cancel immediately upon releasing
Charge slash has horribly small range
Minor Problems with sword line:
No 5 star version
Practically no knockback or flinch on the charge disk
No type damage
Shield cancelling techniques don't flow as well as other 3 strike
_______________________ Proposed solution
#Charge disintegrates if your back is to a wall.
This can be left as it is if the charge becomes viable enough
#Charge can be aimed after you release it. (Your sword swings one way but the disk can fly another way)
Make the disk fire is the direction your knight is facing before you release it. This way it is consistent with all the other sword lines
#Charge will not work if you shield cancel immediately upon releasing
Seriously just fix it, if I have a weapon that doesn't work right all the time it will spend 0 time being used.
#Charge slash has horribly small range
Increase the charge slash range to be as large as a Sealed sword first swing.
#No 5 star version
#No type damage
Create a few 5 star versions of this weapon, add some status, some damage perks vs monsters, and type damage.
#Practically no knockback or flinch on the charge disk
The disk should hit more than just 3 times especially if you have crafted it all the way up. Like the Brandish charges it should get an extra hit per level and some knockback with each hit or at least give it a massive flinch rate players can take advantage of.
#Shield cancelling techniques don't flow as well as other 3 strike blades
Shorten the time between each swing a bit. After all the swing speed of the Winmillion is comparable to that of the grand flourish but the damage is much lower, even the Daring Rigadoon deals more damage.
Grand Flourish in Stratum 2 deals 64 damage on the third swing against a neutral target
Winmillion in Stratum 2 deals 48 damage on the third swing (33 for hit 15 for sword projectile)
Either give it more speed or give it more damage.
Thu, 06/11/2015 - 20:30
#2
i agree!
I agree with everything you said Holy-Nightmare. This weapon needs a big fix cause the mechanics that were created for it were not refined enough to actually perform the way it was designed. This weapon needs not a buff, but a refined attack pattern from charge and normal attacks. Anyway, i like your proposed fixes which is basically fix the points you mentioned.
Wed, 06/10/2015 - 20:22
#3
What proposed fixes? Holy-Nightmare only said what faults the Spur has. Nor have I proposed any fixes; I only critiqued the OP.
Blandaxt what thread are you reading?
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I guess I might as well try to contribute a little more to the thread.
I don't believe the Spur charge attack that flawed. How often do you use Cutter charges? Compare that to the amount that you use Spur charges. When I consider these two as a group, I realize that the amount that I use Cutter vs Spur charges is similarly limited.
Spur charge is kind of like Cutter charge. You can't be that successful if you run at enemies with these charges. You need to wait for an enemy to come to you and turn their bellies up towards you.
In LD, Cutter charge is somewhat useful at blocking a route because it lasts for a while. Highly situational, requires having a team or else you get gimped, but it has it's uses. In LD, Spur charge works against less experienced players who use striker boost to run into you expecting you to walk backwards. If you time it, you can hit people for the lols.
In PvE, Spur is okay at dealing with Kats because they rush at you from all around, you can hit them with the charge, and shield through their attack(or you'll stagger them). Far less disruptive than a Calibur charge, though also less damaging than a Calibur charge.
The Spur charge doesn't need to be fixed in (most of) the ways that Holy-Nightmare said were problems, but it could certainly get it's two main flaws fixed (fully fix shield-canceling the charge bullet, and fix the dead space between the slash and bullet for small-med sized enemies)
I do not know if the dead-space has been fixed, haven't gone checking for that.
Thu, 06/11/2015 - 12:29
#4
@ Qwez
solutions have been proposed
Thu, 06/11/2015 - 21:40
#5
Nittypickingly pickiness~ muahahahahahahahah!!!
"This way it is consistent with all the other sword lines"
The last hit on Cutter charge can be aimed whatever way you want, except you still move in the direction that you were initially facing.
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"This can be left as it is if the charge becomes viable enough"
k
"Make the disk fire is the direction your knight is facing before you release it."
I don't know why you want to remove the aimability of the charge bullet. That's a pretty clear downgrade. Also, I deduced that the reason why you don't move during the charge attack is due to the fact that the charge bullet is aimable after initiating the charge. Also, charge slash is AOE if I didn't mention it enough (also accounting for aimable charge bullet).
You want to make this sword a weaker Avenger by forcing the charge bullet to go towards where you initially aim, but don't mention anything about the AOE charge slash and the lack of movement on the charge attack. Wanting to make Spur like other swords by itself is a stupid reason to make a change(still bitter about not being able to experience Spur with 1st strike movement). (If OOO really changed the Spur attack pattern just because to bring Spur alongside other swords, I'd be disappointed especially since Spur is so unique in this game)
I absolutely disagree with the reason you have given for this proposed change.
"Seriously just fix it, if I have a weapon that doesn't work right all the time it will spend 0 time being used."
I... use it? People used Brandish charges before they were reliable. ...
"Increase the charge slash range to be as large as a Sealed sword first swing."
Eh... 1 Sealed-Sword radii AOE charge slash is a bit too high for my standards, but it's not like the game is following my standards (eg. Brandish), so... sure. It fixes the dead-zone of the charge attack if it hasn't been already fixed, whatever.
"Create a few 5 star versions of this weapon, add some status, some damage perks vs monsters, and type damage."
generic-suggestion-that-takes-a-couple-seconds-to-write. k
Y'know you could've just googled some and said, "I like these suggestions for 5* Spur" or something.
"The disk should hit more than just 3 times especially if you have crafted it all the way up. Like the Brandish charges it should get an extra hit per level and some knockback with each hit or at least give it a massive flinch rate players can take advantage of."
I have this weird feeling that Spur is a legacy from the past of SK, when things were a little more crazy and fun. Wolvers and Zombies used to track on attacks, Brandish used to have variable explosion length, Spur used to have forward 1st strike movement, people played in the clockworks. Now that's kind of all gone. You want it to be more like what the Brandish has...
You want viable... I would just like to have some fun. The kind of fun that has been disappearing from SK as it's changed over the years...
My responses aren't in chronological order. This is my last response. I don't feel like it's worth my time to write up responses in this thread. I might check on it later after the thread is dead.
"Either give it more speed or give it more damage."
How about instead of doing balancing, make change, make fun, revert to the old Spur attack pattern. Now I'm annoyed about Tortofists all over again.
Anyways, adding damage or increasing attack speed isn't going to make the spur more fun to use. It'll certainly be more viable, but it'll be like when Acheron or Guns got a damage buff. Who cares? At least I don't care. So, I disagree with this possibility of change.
Why are you still talking about regular attacks when you clearly stated that the thread is about the charge attack in both the intro and title. :|
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I'm getting pretty annoying/disappointed typing these posts up. I don't feel like you care about this thread and this subject (or at least close to how much I'm stressing over this). You haven't responded to what I've said other than posting proposals for fixing the issues you've listed. Also these proposals are basically just extensions of the issues you've listed. It's kind of like I'm just talking to myself here.
Anyways, I'm going to a no-signal area for the next couple days.
Thu, 06/11/2015 - 22:52
#6
I'm getting pretty annoying/disappointed typing these posts up. I don't feel like you care about this thread and this subject (or at least close to how much I'm stressing over this). You haven't responded to what I've said other than posting proposals for fixing the issues you've listed. Also these proposals are basically just extensions of the issues you've listed. It's kind of like I'm just talking to myself here.
People are not obliged to respond to everything you say. People are not obliged to care about threads either.
When posting on a forum, you are not "talking to yourself": you are posting your words on a wall for everyone to see for all years to come.
If you want to become obsessed and invested in a topic, don't be getting all upset when others don't mirror your efforts within some arbitrary 24 hour time limit you've laid down for them.
Fri, 06/12/2015 - 06:29
#7
@ Fe
The Spur line is fun but unlike many of the weapons in SK it isn't that viable. The Tortofists you hate can be viable when used right and are massively fun (for me at least). The cutter line is also fun but at least they have 5star versions (one with that wonderful poison and the other with a charge that shuts down turret style monsters).
The Spur line just doesn't make a strong enough case for being used, it has no status support, no type damage to specialize in, and a ranged charge attack that leaves much to be desired.
Give it some status, type damage and more easily aimed charge and I could see it being a great weapon to synergize with vortex bombs as well as a possibly new meta for LD.
Mon, 06/15/2015 - 15:57
#8
@Hex
"People are not obliged to respond to everything you say. People are not obliged to care about threads either."
Indeed, but I expected more out of Holy-Nightmare when (s)he brought up this thread. I had(EDIT) some respect for Holy-Nightmare's posts. People aren't obliged to care or respond, but I am/get frustrated when I expected more... quality, effort, time, iono. I kind of care about the Spur, and everything that has been touched on in this thread isn't anything particularly notable(imo) regarding the Spur. That was one downer.
"When posting on a forum, you are not "talking to yourself": you are posting your words on a wall for everyone to see for all years to come."
I know. That's why I said "It's kind of like I'm talking to myself here." Because the person I'm discussing with isn't really responsive(more accurately; not enough to the standard that I held them to). I was pretty excited to discuss the Spur with someone I had some respect for as a forumer.
"If you want to become obsessed and invested in a topic, don't be getting all upset when others don't mirror your efforts within some arbitrary 24 hour time limit you've laid down for them."
I waited for the reply and got bummed out on it; rq. Seeing the second reply, still bummed out. I'm upset that my efforts haven't been mirrored at all, not that the person did not post within a time limit. Would you say this is a discussion of the Spur when the person I'm trying to talk to is not directly responding to me? I can wait... especially since there isn't much qualitative discussion on the Spur, but again, this isn't a discussion as I expected.
@Holy-Nightmare
I never said I hated the Tortofists as much as you imply in that sentence (by being too general). I'm bitter and annoyed that Tortofists have what Spur lost, but I still enjoy using Tortofists.
Not having 5* isn't really an issue. Performance-wise between 4* and 5*, there is the general rule of 4* level 10 damage > 5* level 6 damage. And 4* level 10 has CTR med, so the player isn't losing too much by staying at 4*. The main two problems with no 5*(imo), is the less-awesome look of 4* weapons and rank progression. The damage isn't increased that much, and the charge is usually not much better from 4* to 5*(main exception being bombs).
I'll spend time later to make a convincing argument for Spur usage on par with the Cutter.
You know... you aren't really suggesting fixes here. Sure they would be able to fix some of the issues you've talked about, but these suggestions are more-so what you would like to see introduced to the Spur rather than actually about fixing the Spur. sighs
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No... seriously. I talked all about your proposed solutions, then you don't really reply to what I've said. You've replied to the general idea/points of my response... which would be okay if I wasn't trying to discuss specifics that you had originally brought up. You just rehashed your proposed solutions as your second reply. How am I supposed to discuss when you don't post anything new of the discussion, like you're trying to stuff your idea in my face without a word from me.
Let's evaluate your second response in terms of a meaningful discussion in closer detail. 1st sentence: that's basically the first sentence in your edited OP if 'flawed' is equivalent to 'not viable'. 2nd sentence: this is a response to something I mentioned, but it was off-topic digression so it's not actually a worthwhile response(which I'm not going to cite because I don't see a point; I'm just venting). 3rd sentence: you are basically saying, "weapon that has 5* is viable/good", which is also your opinion from the OP again, which I didn't even respond to because I didn't think it was worth discussing. 4th and 5th sentence: these are from the OP proposed solutions. The last part of 5th sentence is conjecture.
None of what you said is actually discussing Spur with me. I was disappointed and frustrated when I rq'd, then I was also kind of confused after I read what Hex said, but after I thought about it a bit, I'm just disappointed and frustrated.
Mon, 06/15/2015 - 18:22
#9
In depth explanation.
OK I'll go in depth why the problems are bad and why the solutions will work
"Charge disintegrates if your back is to a wall."
Time Spent on a charge attack should be rewarded with good damage when used right, even more than the regular combo when used right. The Divine Avenger does this well since while it's charge can disintegrate on the wall BUT when used right it is an excellent defensive tool to control crowds. The Spur Charge doesn't have as much AOE, knockback, or range even on the swing meaning that a successful charge attack in optimal conditions still doesn't do that much damage. So far all I can see as a use for it is a sword the Maskeraith users can use to quickly get damage out of quilled enemies.
"Charge can be aimed after you release it. (Your sword swings one way but the disk can fly another way)"
This is a double edged sword, it does give you more response to dodgy enemies in battle but is difficult to master for newer players who don't have quite a steady hand. I'm very much on the fence about this ability. On one hand it can be very useful in certain situations but the fact that it is inconsistent with most other swords in this game bothers me.
"Charge will not work if you shield cancel immediately upon releasing"
Pretty much self explanatory unless of course you are the kind of player who likes charge attacks that either don't work or force you to be vulnerable.
"Charge slash has horribly small range"
Seriously I can walk right up to an enemy (practically on top of them, seriously I make physical contact) unleash a charge and not deal damage with the slash. I even tried it with AT on to try and make sure I was aimed directly at them. All I can get is one hit from the disk which deals less than the first slash of the combo.
"No 5 star version"
4 star blades can have as much power as a 5 star blade at level 6-7. That isn't my problem, if you take a look at many of the 5 star item lines in the game you will notice they tend to branch out at the end into different kinds of weapons. BAB, Irontech, Nitronome; Graviton Sentenza Nightblade and Obsidian items; Iron Slug, Callahan. My point with this complaint isn't power but lack of specialization; type damage and little differences in 5 star items from the same line make each one better in certain situations, at the moment the Spur line doesn't really address any situation.
"Practically no knockback or flinch on the charge disk"
Flinch and knockback are the two big lifesavers for swords in this game, for a sword with none on the charge it seems left out and more risky to use. Even the Dread Venom striker gets some help thanks to the damage debuff that the poison gives to enemies.
"No type damage"
This goes back to the "no 5* problem", the lack of specialization leaves this weapon open to easy replacement in a person's inventory. Back in the days before Arsenal stations were installed on most floors this blade had use as it was useable in any situation, whether you needed a gun or a sword. As times changed this blade lost popularity as players could change weapons at the beginning of the floor, they no longer needed a weapon for all situations.
"Shield cancelling techniques don't flow as well as other 3 strike swords"
If you shield cancel the first hit and then continue with the combo you will launch forward to do the last hit. The problem is that when I launch forward I will go PAST the enemy and slash at empty air. This means I have to not shield cancel at all and possible combo into bad situations or shield cancel ALL 3 swings and not get the flinch I would get on the last combo hit.
_______________________________________________________________________
#Charge disintegrates if your back is to a wall.
This can be left as it is if the charge becomes viable enough
#Charge can be aimed after you release it. (Your sword swings one way but the disk can fly another way)
I could go either way, in fact I would really like the option to be able to play with both (much like the old and new Catalyzers/Shards)
#Charge will not work if you shield cancel immediately upon releasing
Seriously just fix it, if I have a weapon that doesn't work right all the time it will spend 0 time being used. Even if I manage to hit the charge attack slash it's still not better than regular hits.
#Charge slash has horribly small range
Increase the charge slash range to be as large as a Sealed sword first swing. The ornamental flashes this weapon line lead players to think this blade has a wide swing range like the Flourish or Troika when in reality it's swing AOE is more like the Calibur or Brandish. In addition the charge swing leads you to believe that this at least has a wide range, but it too doesn't. It's actually about the size of a Brandish charge slash (maybe a bit smaller) and just as narrow. With that massive fancy particle effect the blade produces on every swing you would expect the hitbox to be the same.
#No 5 star version
#No type damage
Create a few 5 star versions of this weapon, add some status, some damage perks vs monsters, and type damage. Making this weapon have an area of expertise would make it more viable and would encourage more players to craft one so they can excel in that situation. Something like Pierce with Shock and a damage bonus against fiend would make it an ideal weapon for fighting Greavers and the charge devastating to Gorgos.
"#Practically no knockback or flinch on the charge disk"
The disk should hit more than just 3 times especially if you have crafted it all the way up. Like the Brandish charges it should get an extra hit per level and some knockback with each hit or at least give it a massive flinch rate players can take advantage of. This blade's charge attack seems to be almost built to be comboed with the Vortex bomb series, but with no status, low charge swing range, no knockback or flinch on the charge you're better off just using a brandish for the Vortex/Sword combo.
"#Shield cancelling techniques don't flow as well as other 3 strike blades"
The damage on this blade isn't comparable to other 4 star blades of the same speed and shield canceling can make you miss or not get flinch. I would certainly enjoy more damage but I would REALLY like it if sword canceling didn't make me miss. Just make it so that I CAN'T fly past the enemy when using the sword combo by either just preventing my movement or having me push the enemy in front of me.
Mon, 06/15/2015 - 20:27
#10
@Qwez
I waited for the reply and got bummed out on it; rq. Seeing the second reply, still bummed out. I'm upset that my efforts haven't been mirrored at all, not that the person did not post within a time limit.
You were expecting him to post something substantial within a time limit, and any other sort of comment from that person was unacceptable according to your personal expectations.
You cannot always expect someone to magically appear when you have contributed X amount to their cause, that's not how life works.
We have other stuff to do, not all of us can make the time to write up huge walls of text replies every day. We're not Blandaxt.
Mon, 06/15/2015 - 22:57
#11
@Hex
(for some context)I deleted about five paragraphs worth of stuff I was going to say.
I have this deep-set expectation that people in a forum who are addressed should fully reply in kind (well if they know that they've been addressed). There are some things here that I hold to a much greater standard than in real life. I'm sorry Holy-Nightmare (and Hex for bothering you about this and thanks for helping me with this) :| That was pretty bad.
@Holy-Nightmare
Still annoyed about what you've posted because you are mostly just reposting the same/similar stuff, but am less annoyed now.
I sat on this for a while. There are some things that I could nitpick and there's stuff that I could discuss, but I became too lazy to make an effort for a response.
Tue, 06/16/2015 - 00:53
#12
I sat on this for a while. There are some things that I could nitpick and there's stuff that I could discuss, but I became too lazy to make an effort for a response.
See, this might be a better attitude in some cases. (for instance, if you're caught in a heated argument, just walking away mid-argument is acceptable if you feel you have nothing more to say that might get through to the other people, or if you're getting overly worked up)
You should post on the forums because you enjoy doing so, reading what other people have to say (even if it isn't much, as is the case nowadays: this forum is a lot quieter than it used to be) and just talking in general. If reading the forums brings you grief and frustration, then you're evidently looking at it the wrong way.
Tue, 06/16/2015 - 06:59
#13
@ Qwez
It should be obvious to those who play SK that the Spur line is the least used in the game, in contrast the brandish line is the most used. Game designers should try to make it so that all their content gets a fair amount of use and is as fun as it is viable.
You may (or may not) have heard about the TF2 competitive matchmaking update. What does this have to do with what I'm talking about? Well Valve is actually planning on using this as a system to collect data on which weapons are most used and which are least used. Why? Well they are going to use this data to hand out Buffs and Nerfs to weapons in the game (without having to actually play the game itself).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZVHDmjGut8
My point is that the Spur line is used very little and spends most of it's time either gathering dust in your inventory or sitting untouched at Basil and Echo's recipe shop. Logically the best way to get an item more used is to make it more appealing, do that any you'll get players running to buy orbs and whatnot to craft one (like the post GU Iron Slug).
Tue, 06/16/2015 - 14:24
#14
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name
the catalyzers are the least used from my experiences, spurs are a close second though
"Charge disintegrates if your back is to a wall."
Not a serious problem. Divine Avenger has this, not that big of an issue. Valiance has this, not that big of an issue.
Also, you don't move when using the charge compared to DA and Vali, so in fact, this is even less of a problem than with DA and Vali. This is only "serious" because the charge in itself is lackluster in comparison to charges on other weapons. I myself have never encountered this issue.
"Charge can be aimed after you release it."
This is most absolutely a plus, because Spur charge is an AOE slash + aimable bullet.
"Your sword swings one way" is wrong. It swings all the ways.
"Charge will not work if you shield cancel immediately upon releasing"
Clearly you have not tried the Spur recently, they semi-patched quite a while ago, I noticed it around 12/15/2013(why did I delve into google for this...). Before it was 100% chance of no bullet, now sometimes you can shield-cancel the charge bullet, sometimes you won't.
"Charge slash has horribly small range"
Eh... yeah... but dat half block o' AOE charge slash... gotta balance this sword-gun-bomb somehow.
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"No 5 star version"
Eh? Yeah minor problem. Whatever.
"Practically no knockback or flinch on the charge disk"
Eh... this is more of a serious problem than your serious problems. Spur seems to be a knockback-oriented weapon with the way that with a full attack combo, you can push Skeletons far enough away that they can't swipe you. So the fact that the charge doesn't also push is kind of odd.
"No type damage"
Eh... Spur is kind of a joke/utility weapon to me so making it have type damage would be detrimental.. For utility, it's kind of useful to bring to any PvE situations. For the jokes, sometimes in LD some depr striker will run into me and get hit by the charge slash :3 It's like a vastly inferior FoV in LD, except you can more accurately hit Strikers who bob and weave (with aiming the charge bullet).
"Fix the Spur line Charge attack" ... "Shield canceling techniques don't flow as well as other 3 strike blades"
._. don't just randomly add stuff about shield-canceling techniques when you're talking about the charge. pls
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How doez you propoze to fix ze charge attack if it'z zo flawed?
Time to go depr in LD.