The problem I have with the CE prices doesn't have anything to do with whether or not we can get to t2 in a reasonable amount of time. Of course we can. It has to do with the limiting factor of relying on only Mist to do what we want. It takes maybe 30min to an hour to empty our Mist reserve, more if we craft. Most of us want to play 4-5 hours. We want to play the game without having to rely on the boring process of using the AH, but our 'suppliers' insist that we only use the most beneficial methods to achieve the basic goals.

My problem is that higher prices limits our ability to play the way we want to. My problem is that higher prices shoehorns us into specific playstyles.

And all the time, you who approve of the higher prices sit back and tell us we should like it.

I echo ohgodmyhead's sentiments.

Not only that, your experience carries you farther along than you might think. Not only could you probably get through T1 on your own without any aid whatsoever, even with beginner equips, and resist the energy sink of reviving, you can avoid the energy gates and the mech-assistants. In addition, you know that getting 1* gear, where 2* gear is considerably better and isn't all that much more expensive, is a bad idea, and, while you have the mental wherewithal to withstand 7 depths in a row, I'm sure most people won't make that commitment right away, without knowing how profitable it can be.

Andur I was in 5* gear about 3-4 weeks after I started and I have never spent a cent on this game. I have about 12k CE banked right now. Stop complaining if you don't know how to do it yourself. I'm working (profitably) on my third set of 5* armor and I started less than 2 months ago.

The general problem with energy and crystal energy isn't really the "rate of progression". Honestly, even at this rate, it's pretty darn fast, compared to other MMOs. It usually wouldn't take me less than 3 months to hit endgame, playing rather actively. On SK, we're forced to play less or profit less, (or, on some cases, get no profit at all) so it makes sense it'd take a long time to reach T3, endgame, etc. Even as an action-oriented game, if this energy system wasn't in place, it wouldn't take more than a month to reach endgame and get easily tired of the game.

But the problem here is simple - The game is advertised as grind-free. This is not in anyway true anymore.

With the high CE crafting costs and the CE market going up, it's going to take a lot of grind to get any kind of progression in the game. If you play by CE, it'll be generally worse, since making profit using CE is rather difficult since the prices of CE are pretty high. Players often use boss runs to test this, but they aren't good examples - A new player certainly won't be able to do danger rooms, arenas or boss levels so easily. (when I first started playing, with a full proto-gear group on D6/D7 danger zones, it'd take over 30 hits of proto weapons to kill mobs.)

Running on ME, this simply makes things take slightly longer. However, on CE, it can be a really bad point, since you won't be making enough profit in general to pay for the CE.

But even at the point CE becomes profitable, be by running boss levels/danger rooms/arenas, selling materials, or whatever, the grind factor comes in. If you play by CE, it's going to be one major grind, since there's little to no content available as of now. You'll be forced to do countless runs of the same levels in order to progress in the game. Even if you choose different gates, there's little variety. (not to say, due to heat/crown profit rates balancing, it's not even worth it, for most cases. Danger rooms and arenas can be more profitable than boss levels, but it's a gamble to come across those)

If you play by ME, things get a bit worse, eventually - Because of how limited ME is, if you want to progress at a decent rate, you're "forced" to play everyday and use up your ME. This might seem silly, but really, missing a day or two of ME doesn't feel so good. In the end, with influence of the grind issue, this will end up feeling like a boring chore, rather than actual fun gameplay.

But sadly, those factors simply cannot be avoided in the current state of the game. The issue is really the lack of content and tiers. The game was released way too early, with little variety in content, terrible balancing, and not enough tiers of progression.

Variety in content isn't even lack of more levels or bosses, but rather, lack of innovation on levels. Sure, Clockwork Tunnels, Wolver Dens, Lichenous Lairs and Devilish Drudgeries are all randomized and pick up several types of areas and put them together, creating an unique level every time you run them. Except this doesn't matter, as all areas are pretty much the damn same. Clockworks is the most varied of those, and even so, there's no actual puzzles, unexpected ambushes, or unique gameplay areas. Out of all the levels available in the game, I find that only Jigsaw Valley, Aurora Isles and the boss levels really offer any kind of unique gameplay that differs from the other levels.

The issues in balancing should really be obvious to most players, if they pay attention to some minor details or the gameplay in general. (thread slightly outdated on certain points, but most of it is still valid.)

And what I find to be the major issue in here is really the lack of tiers of progression. We only have three tiers of content, (or rather, six tiers, counting every stratum) and six tiers of gear. The very first tier, 0-star, doesn't even really count, since you just pass right through it. Most players also opt to skip 1-star directly to 2-star, since the only 1-star equipment that goes past 3-stars would be the Haze Bomb. 2-star lasts really short aswell, in general, while 3 and 4-star could last you quite a while, and 5-star is the endgame.

Comparing this to other games, there's simply not enough tiers on gear or levels. This is what gives the general feel of grind and slow progression. In my opinion, if it was too easy to reach the endgame tier, (5-star) when there's so little tiers, the solution wouldn't be to make it any harder to get to, but rather, to make additional tiers. Sure, this is much harder to code and etc. than a simple change in crafting prices and stuff - but really, Three Rings simply brought themselves into this - There was no need to release this game so early. It was their own decision.

In general, as long as the developers aren't ignorant or greedy (which, sadly, they are being) and work on balancing the game and adding content, this problem will go away eventually. But it'll likely not be any time soon.

(and some information - the last beta test started on october of '10, ended on late march of '11. Quite a lot of changes were done from previous beta tests and the early times of this one last beta test, however, it was disappointing - upon release of the game, they didn't even add anything new at all. It was just the same thing as the beta, with small changes to gear, pricing of items, levels, etc. No major features or new content)

I recently did a Jelly Run, just to test the current rewards.

Results:
Not selling Anything: 7330-7000= 330/100Energy
Selling Mats on AH : 8957-7000= 1957/100Energy
All AH Mat sales fail: 4960-7000= -2040/100Energy

So at the moment, I'm technically fine running the way I want to, provided this wasn't a good run. But it's within 330 CR of being too much. I think I'm understandably nervous.

Especially since, as I'm determined to follow through with this test, this is where I currently stand now:

6786-7000= -214/100Energy

It's only a slightly rough estimate, as I included both the (Sold Mats-Seller's Fee) and the Listing Price for 1 day

Actually, it only takes 70 to hit 16, but i projected total gains from there. The results are, essentially, an average of 7 identical runs, not just one run. The result of one run was closer to 6270. And that's including the gains from selling mats, which is somewhat optimistic, and risky. Divide by 7 is the average amount of money per floor, multiply by 10 to simulate the use of 100 Energy. Killing the king is barely worth it, and difficult solo, so for the moment, he's been removed.

And yes I understand the use of Mist Energy results in 100% profits. That's not the issue. The issue is the amount of gains we get for every 100 Energy we DO spend on runs. Yes, we understand with these tests that we can totally get to 2* and even 3* in a relatively acceptable amount of time, but the point of this exercise as I understood it was not only to prove that argument invalid, which it is to a degree, but also to try to demonstrate somehow that the prices are acceptable, which it did not.

What I'M trying to demonstrate here is that, should the prices of CE raise any more, I won't be able to play as much as I want to without losing profit, or resorting to the AH, which I find tedious. Even so, if prices rise to what some people have claimed is the 'correct' CE price (about 10k) then CE won't be profitable for ANYONE to run on.

Except of course that requires us to join another group, or otherwise circumvent the early levels. Which means we can't solo from the beginning to meet 'your' idea of profit. I'm talking about solo runs and group runs from the beginning of the tier. Not everyone DOES start at 13. Not everyone WANTS to start at 13. You're talking about optimizing our profits to meet the requirements of rising prices, which once more, 'limits our ability to play the way we want to' and 'shoehorns us into specific playstyles.' The price of CE shouldn't gravitate to the highest profit of a successful full tier run, but the lowest.

(edit @edit2 above) And I'm not meaning it does, or it will. Just that, for the sake of players freedom to play as they wish, it should.

Getting from t1 to t2 doesn't take much, getting from t2 to t3 does...

"Getting from t1 to t2 doesn't take much, getting from t2 to t3 does..."

Exactly, case and point got from T1 to T2 in about a day? - although I was using more than ME - but didn't buy any gear in between, basically weant from what I got coming straight off the pod to full wolver, and a cautery sword I believe until I got myself a sealed sword from JK runs.

T1 to T2 is a nice progression. T2 to T3 obviously takes longer and is harder and more time consuming and costs more to get through for sure. I think its a well balanced system though.