Spiral Knights - Questions for OOO and the SK community (if OOO would be so kind as to answer, that would be much appreciated)

Questions for OOO and the SK community (if OOO would be so kind as to answer, that would be much appreciated)

16 replies [Last post]

Tue, 09/01/2015 - 22:17

Kneeanderthal

I'll give some reasoning, and then post questions at the bottom, just so I am as clear as possible.

I'll put this in list format to be brief. Comparison of 2011-2012 gameplay to today.

2011 SK: 9/10
2015 SK: 4/10

2011: Arcade. New people met other new people, friendships flourished.
Enter OOO: Missions and sparks of life. Game essentially turned into single player.
Result: Players quitting. Missions were pretty much the death knell.

2011: Lockdown introduced. Fun as heck, extremely enjoyable.
Enter OOO: AT and Polaris. Yes, these existed before, but OOO refused to do anything about it.
Result: Toxicity in LD environment, centered around these two aspects.

In two fell sweeps, the game was changed. LD became toxic, and changed from a nice amount of cool players who played for fun to group of people who have nothing else going on in their lives, and whose sole source of entertainment is tbagging/polarising/ATing someone. PvE was changed to a single player game, which ruined the social aspect that the game thrived off of.

The social aspect of the game is nearly gone. All that's left is brain-dead chatter amongst "haven friends," people telling noobs to farm vana and quit begging, and LD full of tbagging and AT.

That is the current state of the game. No honeycoating, pure and simple.

My question: Why hasn't OOO removed AT from lockdown yet? Allow me to clarify:
1) The sad remnants of the LD community either unanimously agree or are neutral that LD with no AT would be better.
2) If you spent any amount of time spectating LD, you would see that 90% or arguments result from AT.
3) People have been complaining about AT for YEARS. In this time, the gunner update, excessive promos, and other changes have been added.

I am just wondering, what is the reason for not removing AT from lockdown? It is only hurting the already weak playerbase, and all it does is create this nasty, ugly atmosphere of Lockdown. Lockdown. Eww. Ugh. AT Combo polaris. No thanks. I would rather quit. (Already stated by numerous people, evidence in the bazaar and GD over the years).

I just don't understand. I hope OOO is able to share an answer. Anyone, please. Developer, game master, moderator, I don't care. LD is the only thing people play significantly, and AT just keeps it in scraps, socially.

Tue, 09/01/2015 - 22:36

Midnight-Dj

another AT rant huh?

My personal stand on AT is still this:

AT is a tool that a player can choose whether or not they want to use, it is a tool that is implemented into the game and you are free to not use it. But to deny other people the right to use it because you think it is unfair is the equivalent of forcing everyone in CoD to camp, or force everyone to play DMC on hell in hell mode (you die in one hit), or force everyone to play dark souls as the only RPG game. No, man chooses, slave obeys, I want to use AT and Polaris then that is my choice.

Tue, 09/01/2015 - 23:33

Traevelliath

I don't understand why people make AT and the Polaris such a huge issue... I really don't.

And don't even think about explaining it to me. My SK life has been far happier by not understanding these things... or even caring.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 06:50

Bopp

what has changed is you

Most of this game is unchanged from 2011. Whatever you found fun then, you could also find fun now. What has changed is you. You have played through all of the content so many times, that it's no longer exciting. More new content would help, but you would get bored with that quickly too.

Yes, it's too bad that the social scene is much weaker than it used to be. But I see new knights all the time in Haven --- low rank, without guilds, asking newbie questions. What you're really sad about is that your old friends are gone. I'm sad too. Now let's go out and make new friends.

I don't understand your "Enter OOO" comments. They suggest that OOO suddenly came in and wrecked the game. But OOO created this game. They are responsible for everything good in it.

I don't know why OOO sets its Lockdown auto-targeting policy as it does. But, as you know, it's been this way since 2011.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 07:25

Smalltownguy

Don't just whine about it. Exploit it.

It's not your job (nor mine) to convince people not to use AT. It's your job (and mine) to exploit its great weakness: that AT makes you shoot where the opponent was, rather than where he's going.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 07:40

Krakob

I feel like this entire boils down to "SK is a bad game because people have learned to abuse AT".

For those who aren't very familiar with LD and AT's functionality, it's quite simple. AT makes you aim straight on your enemy and corrects your attacks by a maximum of 45 degrees (swords) or 22.5 degrees (guns). AT's most notable effect is on quick guns which are borderline hitscan (antiguas, magnuses, kind of blasters) and Brandishes (which basically get a bigger hitbox by using AT, as the 45 degree arc is bigger than the Brandish's narrow hitbox). AT is calculated server side.

A lot of people argue that AT makes for good latency compensation and gives high ping/poorly geared players a chance. This is very true. But the people who benefit the most from it are people with good connection who know how to abuse it. This is why most people who are against AT are against it - no one cares about that Ash Tail who just spams Grand Flourish combos. Maybe AT has helped him win a few fights but any decent player will take him out no matter if he uses AT or not.

@Bopp
I'm sad too. Now let's go out and make new friends.
Will you be my friend? I'm lonely and possibly a single woman in your area. Or maybe I'm a kid in Sweden who spends too much time playing games. You should try to find out!

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 07:45

Fehzor

I'mma let you finish but first-

To be quite frank with you, the game is superior on basically all accounts than when it first came out. The only things that really leave much to be desired (for me at least) are the lack of radiant-farming-areas (getting better), lack of arcade building (which always needed work), and the way the story is told (scenario rooms and subtle things like that, where you piece them together are SOOO cool. Missions are OK but take the mystery out of it a bit)... which isn't to harp on those issues I'd like to see addressed so much as praise the game for having some of the most fun updates I've ever had the privilege to play through.

Think about everything that has came out within the last two years or so- dash and bash, sprite perks and the gunner update added a ton of new versatile combat techniques to the game that often go under appreciated because of how well the blend in with classic Spiral Knights, while new levels like compounds, danger missions, incredible events and now the new lategame content being added is expanding on our challenges by a huge margin. Even things like balance have been attempted at- handguns are much more balanced than they once were, while armor tweaks buffing the lesser used armors and blast bombs have in fact came out since release- chaos used to be awful and now it's super fun. Some of these balance tweaks weren't enough, but they still happened and I still appreciate that someone took the time to attempt at them.

The problem isn't Three Rings, it's a lack of Three Rings. The vast majority of what they've done has been in a very good direction.

-As for your actual questions-

In no particular order-

Three Rings has actually acknowledged the auto-target debacle-

PvP is something that the team wants to take a closer look at, but
it isn't at the top of the list right now. Auto Targeting is one small piece
of PvP. The team wants to take the time to look at the entire system. Making a
small, quick change to AT might be a bad idea and throw things off. The team
doesn't want to make a quick fix and break PvP.

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/102765

And I find it easy to see where they're coming from. If I might share some speculation-

Lets say that there is a bomber/swordy update in the works, just like the gunner update but for not-guns.. if there isn't then the game will remain forever gun-heavy, and gunners will continue to be what is basically the alpha-class. Then on top of that, there could be updates planned around shields and armor pieces as well, as part of a re-imagining of Spiral Knights on the whole. How would you best produce this and tie it into lockdown? In chronological order-

1. Fix up the weapons
2. Finish the story line
3. Possibly fix up the armors/shields
4. Possibly introduce more sprites etc.
5. Possibly arcade redux
6. Balance PvP

There are a ton of things that would come before PvP, because PvP is dependent on things and constantly redesigning it with quick fixes every time an auto-target becomes the scourge of humanity would take quite a bit of effort and might not even end up being beneficial.

Is god I mean the arcade dead?

Nothing is stopping you from running it and it has in fact become a better place to play than ever- the energy system made most levels in the arcade a net loss, which was awful. Now however, you are 100% free to run it for a guaranteed profit every time. If that doesn't sound AWESOME to an old timer then I don't know what does.. Nor does it pay out that much less in terms of everything than say, even firestorm citadel. You can check out my farming guide in the new recruits section for more info, particularly the links that go to Lancer Knights and SkepticRaven's hard data.

It's also worth mentioning the plethora of events that transpire in the arcade, bringing the community toghether every month and a half to hunt down creep cakes or jackolanterns, fiends or black kats. These provide incentive to run the arcade some of the time, which is much better than incentive to run it 100% of the time.

What DID change was that the arcade isn't construct-able or the main attraction any longer. These things were at some point very nice to the game, and I would love to see them return in a much better form. As I said before, constructing the arcade was never really good enough.

The social aspect of the game is nearly gone.

The elite-knight-in-haven aspect is both a social occurrence (they ARE socializing, are they not?) and something that isn't exactly new. When I was a lowly nub, players like Chris and Magnus would do exactly the same- sit in Haven with their fancy valk wings on snarbolax and neato auras, basking in the praise of less wallet-ful players such as myself.

If you're looking for social interaction during missions, I've found no lack of that except when it comes to the end-game missions like Dreams and Nightmares, where the number of players willing and capable is rather low. I believe this to be symptomatic of too much grinding, and would very much like to see something done about the price of radiant fire crystals, so as to advance and train more friends for myself. In tier 2 and tier 3 however, there are easily runs to go on or start at almost all times- you just have to look.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 08:42

Holy-Nightmare

Neener neener

The problem people have with AT is that it isn't something they can buy..... you can buy UV rolls to get the perfect armor and weapons that are blatantly overpowered, you can buy weapon slots so you have an answer to nearly any regular player you come across, you can buy Heart trinkets so you can play the fastest class with practically no penalty, you can buy SOL to burn in LD to quick respawn with extra power.

The only thing you can't buy is AT, it is free to everyone. You're just salty over the fact that you have been killed a few times by some new player who managed to get the last hit on you.

Take off all your fancy gear and well....... lets see how long you last......
http://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=http%3A%2...

Also if you didn't get the info from the GU the Polaris damage got reduced...... so yeah OOO did do something.....

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 08:43

Matikclocker

I wish I had played Lockdown.

I don't orient in this thread as I don't have EVEN A LITTLE idea what's Auto Target.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 08:55

Kneeanderthal

@Bopp You definitely have a

@Bopp

You definitely have a point, playing a game on and off for 5 years is a testament to how good it is....I guess the lack of change was what made it fail. I guess I don't have a fresh perspective on the current game...that'd be interesting actually to find out. But as far as I know, more people are leaving than joining and staying. Maybe promos are OOO's attempt at advertising? I have no clue....gotta say though, I am impressed that you are able to stay and play and help out people throughout all the time you have been here Bopp, you are by far the most helpful person on the forums with regards to new recruits. I wonder how many players you are responsible for adding to the playerbase....probably a lot :)

@Smalltownguy

This is only true if your opponent moves near perpendicular to the gunshots. If they move at any angle less than about 45 degrees towards the AT gunner, they are going to get carbine'd. Swords though, there's no escape.

@Krakob

Pretty much. No sane person finds enjoyment in replaying the same level 1000+ times, so PvP is the last thing that keeps normal people "interested." Lockdown is usually the place for SK retirement I think, since its the stage where most people quit. It's the last thing people do, and AT is still in there, causing arguments and ruining everyone's day. But I've played for too long, I know how AT works, and you do as well. It's garbage.

@Fehzor

Thank you for finding that thread, I recall someone mentioning that it had been answered. So the answer as to why AT is still there is because OOO is afraid of messing up LD even more. I think they just need a neutral, outsider's perspective. Someone who has never played SK, and needs to get their opinion. After all, that's what most companies do when they reach a dead end.

Thank you all for your replies. I am probably just annoyed at AT and the game's progression since I have been playing it so long, and other people's quitting threads are quite discouraging. Hopefully I didn't come off as some %$^& who is just whining about AT (even though I totally am), but in the end, it is just a game.

Hiatus time?

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 08:58

#10

Kneeanderthal

Hollup.....in Fehzor's linked

Hollup.....in Fehzor's linked reply, OOO said that they are frustrated that they can't give direct answers. That is extremely strange....who's stopping them? Is it someone from SEGA? Is it in a contract somewhere? That doesn't sound normal....

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 09:12

#11

Hershey-Kiss

Shared rev pls. Remove

Shared rev pls. Remove emergency rev.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 09:33

#12

Matikclocker

I still don't know what Auto-Target is.
And I don't know what's unfair in it.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 09:48

#13

Kneeanderthal

^Stay away from the toxic

^Stay away from the toxic waste dump known as LD and you won't have the misfortune of finding out. Stay fresh man

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 10:35

#14

Fangel

Others have covered it pretty well already. We are having new players in this game constantly, you just don't really know they exist until they show up in the end-game and you run into them.

Personally I play this game for the PvE despite having over 4k hours in it. The experience is still fun, and I enjoy doing it, but I'm that person who will happily grind black kats when they're around so I know I'm an outlier, not the more common mindset.

Auto Target is something that is only annoying when you are bested by someone of the same or higher skill level, and they are using the same gear as you but consistently defeat you using auto target. Granted there are very simple ways to counter a person who does this (at least with swords), so it's not the end of the world, but it can be annoying.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 12:53

#15

Sweetsundere

Why in general discussion?

It's basically a LD thread, I see the word AT 10 times in your post.
I've always seen Spiral Knights as a prodigious kid able to do amazing things with parents that don't really support him in anything, while his friends support him, it doesn't really matter since his parents have the money and would rather not help him anyway.
And not to be rude, but PvE players don't know a thing about PvP. They know how it works sure, but it's not the same mind than those who see it in a competitive way or when they play the game for LD and not PvE because that's what they find fun.

*Here thoughts of someone that would hate you for using AT months ago but now it's like w/e*
After I stopped caring about the game, I started using AT more often and not caring at all about anything, made it a lot more fun because everyone gets salty and watching them self-destruct is hilarious, toggle is an amazing feature because I can always aim when it's against a respectable player that doesn't use AT, and use AT when it's someone I either don't like for talking too much or AT/Pola spammer.
And OOO doesn't remove it is for these reasons:

1. They can't really program
2. They don't care about Lockdown as seen in the fact there hasn't been a single Coliseum update in years and they've been ignoring the "Remove AT threads" where basically everyone agrees with the main post.
3. Who knows what's inside their head, but they've turned this game into a Barbie Simulator rather than a game nowadays.

PD: Don't reply this if you're gonna be defending OOO because I'll pretty much ignore that kind of post. I love this game, it has a lot of potential that they're not taking in mind and slowly making the game more and more inactive.

Wed, 09/02/2015 - 13:18

#16

Kneeanderthal

@Sweetsu Nah, don't worry, I

@Sweetsu

Nah, don't worry, I agree with you wholeheartedly :)

I decided to put this in GD to make sure it was read, since most of the other forums are dead save for the quitting sales in the bazaar.

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Questions for OOO and the SK community (if OOO would be so kind as to answer, that would be much appreciated)