Spiral Knights - Brink Back Heart/Item sharing aka Heart split/ Revive (Sparks are still welcome/remain viable) Bring back CO-OP in the clockwork

Brink Back Heart/Item sharing aka Heart split/ Revive (Sparks are still welcome/remain viable) Bring back CO-OP in the clockwork

15 replies [Last post]

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 14:41

Viconaut

In my (and apparently MANY other players) opinions Heart Res, and the item sharing was a CORE mechanic and at the (if not THE) very heart of Co-op and for Spiral Knights at least, its (again in my opinion at least) a mostly Co-Op experience/ game and is fundamentally changed accordingly whenever the Co-op mechanics are so altered. Such as they were when the Spark/Forge system was implemented. Granted, some felt the spark system was just a means to force players to buy "Lives" or the means to continue a felled group in the clockworks with Real World Cash, Via the Depot. This is in part true as it DOES encourage the use of sparks, and even punishes you (were all familiar with the fee for getting caught with your pants down in the works without sparks and dying - 50 CE is steep no matter how you cut it) for not buying them before hand should you need to purchase one or more on the fly (mid dungeon)

Co-Op before this change was so much more involved, more group oriented, more tactical/coordinated group dynamics, more "CO-OPy" hell it was just MORE all around ffs, you were more a part of a greater whole rather than just 1 dude alone in a group playing alone for your own stakes, and your OWN items and your OWN safety on the line and NOTHING more- Before, If YOU had HP, your GROUP had HP, if you had a pill YOUR KNIGHTS had a a pill, if YOU hurt, THEY hurt, you win? THEY win. you were in it together and for all the right reasons. at the end of a string of intense Arenas/ Clockworks depths runs (some of which you battled across a room full of enemies alone BARELY making it to your fallen comrades in time to raise them and then stand back to back against the now surrounding forces as you AGAIN, thank the gods that your buddy(s) gets to split/fight with that other half of your 1 HP bar with you- through walls of said enemies to get back or get some HP drops.

THAT was Co- OP, THAT was multiplayer- and THAT was SPIRAL KNIGHTS. and it was unique and something NO other mmo/gameplay ive experienced ever offered. I want that back, and i don't think im alone

I Believe returning heart res to the game would offer enough benefits to outweigh any potential downfalls, and also do not think it would in any way damage the Spark but rather improve/ strengthen it. Consider that with heart revive implemented it does NOT make sparks obsolete. a group can and often times WILL still wipe completely, thus a single spark could potentially be the difference in a group succeeding entirely or not ( a single play might choose to split their HP with a downed companion thus lowering their odds in terms of sheer survival rate but increase potential offensive/ tactical ability by sharing the same amount of HP with another knight, offering another set of weapon combos, decisions and dynamics all arise.

Such is the depth that a simple mechanic potentially offers even in its most limited amounts , and if you consider that, you have a small glimpse of what we lost when what i like to call ''The Dark/ Promo Train Ages" i hope that now with Grey Haven, our seeming saviors running things, this matter might be seen/ hopefully picked up and noticed and i would love to see my fellow vets who feel the same way voice their opinion to further any momentum/ chance we might regain this wonderful/ unique piece and gameplay mechanic of spiral knights that deserves to be remembered and revisited to see if its alteration was for a worth while purpose, be it progress, improvement, greed w/e. and if not, to bring it back.

If the Gray Haven team REALLY is a group from the "good 'ol days" i hope they might see this and relate.

Just in case that wasn't a TL:DR typa deal... lol heres a couple links to some posts i made in the past about the same point but a little more in depth/ overly passionate about our missing mechanics - (remember, guilds BAILED when they took this out, my whole game/friend and guild network broke down and dissolved because of this) anyway- let me know what you guys thing one way or the other - all opinions welcome

some of my past posts on topic if you care
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/100418
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/87435

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 15:30

Fangel

...

Okay, you've posted this before, and many others have as well. I've responded the same the entire time.

OLD MECHANICS
Old mechanics were much more team based. The problem is that bad players caused good players trouble, and therefore bad players never had to "step it up" and become better as long as they had one other good player. Alt dragging was another popular tactic due to shared loot.

Currently, the mechanics are themed around "you are good, your team is good". However, instead of a strong team being 4 players, now a strong "team" can be a single player, and that's just not teamworky. In essence, I agree with you.

However, I do not think that we should "bring back the old ways" necessarily. We've seen what is good and bad about both systems, so we can build that to make a better system instead of bringing back old problems.

PROPOSED MECHANICS
There are plenty of ways to make this work. Here's a short list of ones that have been mentioned before or popped into my head as writing:

Team revives using health pills. Activates like old health revives.
Team revive using new pickup. Activates like old health revives.
Team ER rarity that drops more often than sparks of life. Activates like old health revives.
Old health revives, except you must have over 50% health to revive players.
Short minigame similar to castle crashers to revive a teammate.

Make all consumables and vitapods to drop serverside. Allow consumables to be dropped by players for others. Crowns, heat, and hearts are still client sided.

I want to also bring up that sparks of life are used by everyone currently. However, good parties use them less. If we bring back health revives with no other changes, then good parties will never touch sparks of life ever again. That's a bad thing.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 17:03

Ankung

May be harsher than intended

How come everyone always mentions something along the lines of "This would never happen with OOO, but now that Grey Haven has taken over, everything will be so great again!" I mean, I'm not outright distrusting them, but they seem a little, overhyped.

Anyway, I do kinda agree with you here, sharing hearts and powerups would bring forth a heavier cooperational element to the game, however I cannot help but wonder how much that would break the game.

What I mean is that when they removed player revives and added sparks, they also removed elevator fees and mist energy to enable people to explore as much of the clockworks as they wanted. Now you have to "pay for extra lives", but back then you had to "pay for extra gameplay". This is Spiral knights greatest source of income, and even if Grey Haven happens to be run by great idealists they need money, or we cannot play the game.

Also, a little critique on your writing, I feel like you could add an explanation to what this is for people who didn't play "back in the good ol' days".

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 16:55

Fangel

I've noticed that too

Lots of people seem to assume Grey Havens is like, some sort of deity. It's ex-Three Rings employees... But you know, Three Rings made the changes to the new way it works in the first place. Even if SEGA was behind them then it was still a response to the age old "mist energy sucks" complaint, and it was a good response.

It feels very gunner-updatey. People want to get hyped over something, so they do, and it doesn't really deliver super hard. There's no immediate payoff, but in the long term it's for the best. Gunner update has done that, and I'm sure Grey Haven's acquisition will be similar.

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 18:41

Viconaut

its very easy to "Choose"

its very easy to "Choose" your group to easily avoid your main issue. if you wanna run Vanna, your obviously not going to want to pug 1- 2 spots, right? not to mention similarly based players get filtered together and end up learning one way or another whether players like ourselves have a tolerance for them or not. the heart system leaving had little to no effect on lack of skill bringing down the group as thats still a perfectly irritating issue today without it

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 18:43

Viconaut

@ Grey Haven

I don't worship them. BUT they DID end the shameless promo train.... that alone is worth a kudo

Tue, 06/14/2016 - 18:53

Corporal-Shade

I'm a Wizard

git gud

Wed, 06/15/2016 - 04:05

Dagunner

4 soloists, 1 level

With the new system it just feels like you have 4 people soloing the same level at the same time, where everyone was in it for themselves and if they died they are dead weight. Plus there's been many times where I try to help friends do bosses like RT or JK and they don't survive the boss, Since no one has sparks and 50ce is too expensive, it results in them not getting tokens despite playing through the entire mission.

Wed, 06/15/2016 - 11:56

Fangel

I feel the same way

It really does feel like you're soloing the level but fighting together. The good part about that is that if someone isn't good you aren't responsible for them. The bad part is that it doesn't feel like co-op anymore.

Basically, in order for a working system to be in place, we need something that feels like co-op that doesn't make your responsible for their deaths. As such, health pills being required for a revive would be great.

Thu, 06/16/2016 - 05:16

Dagunner

Well, in the current system,

Well, in the current system, they're still dragging you down by being dead. I guess with health revives, not reviving a team mate if you think its a waste is an option.

Thu, 06/16/2016 - 12:41

#10

Fangel

in theory yes

Thing is if you were around for health revives, players would revive others the moment they could most of the time due to it being expected. If you didn't revive someone you were considered a jerk unless the person who kept going down was a jerk to everyone.

Additionally, in the old system, players would often revive immediately after dying since they didn't know that health revives existed, and so they saw the "revive" button and mashed it. These are the same players who run out of sparks of life and then demand we have more revive methods now-a-days.

Basically team revives is something we need to create stronger links per party instead of everyone being so distant from each other. At the same time it needs to be limited and not something you feel bad about giving away. Health capsules are 12 health but it doesn't instantly harm you to give one away to someone else.

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 01:19

#11

Flash-Flire

I want... THAT one

I like the health capsule revive idea. It could potentially make buying health capsules pre-mission a little bit viable at least!
I assume you double-click while over someone and it takes a capsule, then heals them the same amount the capsule would heal you?
Also, I'm just assuming no dropping pickups while downed. If you could, you could just have someone else use your capsule, making every capsule essentially a revive.
Maybe if you're revived with 2/3 of what the capsule heals you for (2 hp in T1, 4 hp in T2, 9 hp in T3), that could balance it?

Fri, 06/17/2016 - 14:09

#12

Enclave-Xz

OOO really shot themselves in the foot making the game the way it is. There is a reason people generally quit playing.

Mon, 06/20/2016 - 03:19

#13

Viconaut

@ Fangel

Agreed, neither is perfect, which is why i think a combination of both would be quite welcome.

Most people seem to be under the impression that Heart Ressed just encouraged bad players to be a drain on the group, which i understand but simply do not feel that there isn't a very EASY solution to said issue - that being, no longer resurrect said player if he continues to recklessly waste his health/ ability then he can be left with his OWN devices (sparks or w/e) if he wants to continue playing rather than laying dead while others refused to pay for his most recent "mistake" not to mention, you can kick out of the group if someone is griefing but in such a game its rare for someone to leroy jenkins it up for the most part, everyone tries to do their best, especially when among strangers.

aside from just plain, not ressing, not bringing troublesome players in the first place, running with public groups has ALWAYS involved a little risk that you may end up in a less than favorable group, however this is in ALL games (though i feel its LESS prominent in spiral knights tbh as the co-op really DOES encourage/inspire some wonderful morale, co-op oriented and reinforced teamwork.

the heart res system made for things you just don't get to do or see anymore, like being the last man standing, fighting through an entire swarm of enemies JUST to barely be able to reach your fallen comrade(s) upon doing so, youre health is reduced but you are now surrounded by all the creatures you fought through to reach said place, but you are also, now back to back with your buddy. you battle youre way through once more and either pick up the rest or do what you can with the 2 of you. at the end of this, you likely added 1 or more ppl to your buddies list ^^

Wed, 06/22/2016 - 04:48

#14

Boneblinder

sigh

OOO really shot themselves in the foot making the game the way it is.

I thought it was clear enough that Grey Havens IS basically ex-OOO employees.

People think that now that there's new GM's, there's a new light of hope, and there'll be new gameplay soon. Guys, its OOO. There's literally nothing to be hyped about just yet. I'm not saying being hyped is bad, but when you're hyped about nothing, it is bad. Everyone expects Grey Havens to be really good, not saying it isn't, but its basically OOO. If things go back to the way they were, and there are only occasional boxes, etc. updates, people will say its Grey Havens fault.

Now to talk about the topic. This has been bought up a million times, and in my honest opinion, the spark system is pretty good, and so is the orb one. Sparks and Orbs drop from boxes, which makes them really easy to find. And I also don't think that sparks and half health rev can be combined and used.
If two people die, and only one person has a spark, he basically revives himself and then gives half his health to the other person. Sounds pretty stupid.

NOTE: I think the spark rate has been buffed, because these days I'm getting 4-5 sparks per Vana run.

Sun, 10/02/2016 - 01:07

#15

Exrealz

+100 to Health Sharing Revive Mechanism or Maybe Fangel Idea

I'm wondering ... do the developer even considered reading or discuss the community or players idea/request ... or they just milking players for few more years then BOOM, ninja GONE jitsu >.> don't get me wrong, i do appreciate that OOO removed elevator fees and included many update and of course the wonderful now ex OOO employees willing to keep the game alive with the existed data ... BUT when the sharing health revive mechanism gone, the game kinda felt its not what it used to be anymore, the FUN kinda faded yet that cute looking still there, which i stop playing for months or maybe year i didn't really count it ... I remember i used to pay elevator pass to play the game, introduce the game to others and made a meeting in game to play together a lot and help each other out due to the health sharing mechanism even he/she not GOOD at the game, they were encouraged to play more not them watching you play/finish the whole mission (they can meet YOUTUBE for that XD) ... its so fun especially playing with family member and known friends (not random knights) when they died, you always revive them with your health and together, we try our best to survive again (used 96 Sparky in 3 days mostly for them in few hour gameplay XD), unlike now, died ? just revive ... its full health anyway no need to try harder >:D Sparks of lifeless for the win !

its kinda felt TOO pay to win ? maybe ? maybe no ? LoL, its not that building equipment will not require CE, it STILL does, player still buy materials in supply depot to build equipment, WHY ? not all player are as lucky as you, YES ... YOU >:3 that lucky player who have PERFECT MAJESTIC internet, player who OWN the SUPER SAIYANS equipment and player who are GODLIKE that able to SOLO ALL THE MISSION, when the game players ONLY left those of YOU who's FOREVER alone PERFECTLY in ONLINE games (I personally think they don't forever alone though, they always have friends, BUT friends that they used for SHOWING OFF purpose only XD). Therefore other than material, the unlucky player pay for sparky too, way too much pay to win felt isn't it ? :)

Conclusion, Grey Havens, make a 1 time purchase spiral knights offline with LAN play support, that would be awesome isn't it ? XD Just Kidding ~

After 4 month, I was like they don't read it anyway >.>

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Brink Back Heart/Item sharing aka Heart split/ Revive (Sparks are still welcome/remain viable) Bring back CO-OP in the clockwork