A link to the Arsenal thread discussion for reference: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19923

I fully support the suggested changes. The current charge attacks look and sound great. However, ironically, although these swords are supposed to trade "style and panache" for "brute force trauma", the players using Sud/Trig actually find that we are trading power for a very flashy sword with a very flashy attack, one that doesn't really do much in the way of monster culling.

Give these swords a reason to be feared! They are part of the slowest melee-range weapon class in the game (especially the charge attacks), and they really need some love to be brought into line with the effectiveness of the other top-tier swords.

Oh, another option. Instead of leaving a "vapor" behind, the charge could instantly (100% chance) freeze or stun all monsters in a small radius around the sword and player at the moment of impact. That might be more in-line with a massive chunk of ice/steel hitting the ground. And would be quite useful, even if the shock-wave did no damage.

/support

For the time it takes to charge and execute, the Sudaruska/Triglav charge attacks are incredibly underwhelming. Not only is the charge time longer than most other swords, the damage output and range are incredibly low, all whilst leaving the user completely vulnerable - on top of that, taking damage during the charge attack doesn't cancel it, nor can the player shield, meaning the player has no way to defend themselves once they commit.

And the final damage output? About twice the damage of the first hit of the combo, which can be used about 5 times in that time frame anyways. The only swords with a smaller range on their charge attacks are either below 3 stars in rarity or flourishes, and at least the latter has decent damage. The only (tier 3 available) sword with lower damage on a charge attack is winmillion, which charges in about half the time anyways.

Wow. Not only was Khorovod stripped of its rocks, they became cosmetic for its 5-star version. The slowest charge attack in the game, and the best it does is 1.5x one swing's damage. Weaksauce.

+1, these awesome swords definately need some well-earned buffs.

You know, since the Triglav requires 300 KC's for its recipe and the ones leading up to it, ALONGSIDE the typical crafting costs, it definitely needs to be one of the most powerful/useful swords. I mean, really. It requires more work than a Divine Avenger, shouldn't it be better (in its own respect)?

The interesting thing about the troika line in terms of comparative damage is that it's normal type so it hits relatively hard for what it is. If it was a typed damage like elemental for example, it would be hitting a tiny bit harder than a DA given the damage bonuses it would receive. The same would go for a GF, the main issue is that normal damage swords are a placeholder weapon meant to not be specifically good for any one particular mob. If they boosted a Triglav/Sudaruska to do as much if not a little more damage than say a DA or GF, there would be no need to carry multiple weapons. Multiple weapon slots are ce incentives to allow you to carry more custom tailored weapons for any given area so you can maximize your damage potential. Bar none I feel that's what it boils down to, but a buff to the charge attack would be greatly appreciated, and as an owner of a Triglav I would love to see more damage.

But as is I understand why they would make the decision as to the overall effectiveness of the weapon. If it was buffed a bit more to be on par with a typed damage weapon in terms of damage then there would be nearly negligible reasons to bring one with you except for the secondary effects or overall usefulness of the charge attacks as your current "normal high damage brain bashing super Sudaruska/Triglav" is literally the only sword you need.

Currently these weapons are vanity weapons. And beautiful as they may be I sincerely doubt a buff is in the future.

@stupysays: To be honest, I don't think anyone is really complaining about the regular swing damage output. It is perfectly mediocre as a standard weapon, if a bit slower even than its similarly modeled DA/GF cousins. It's the charge attack that really needs work, and that is what most of these suggestions deal with. The charge attack is devoid of utility and of damage. There are few scenarios where using it is not suicidal.

That's what makes Sud/Trig "vanity" weapons, and I don't think OOO intends any weapon to be a "vanity" weapon. They should all have a place. So we will try and keep this thread visible until they take notice.

I think you give the developers a lot of credit -- not every item and change is tested thoroughly and given a comprehensive justification on both aesthetic and functional levels. There have been plenty of errors, and Suda/Trig are relatively new, as is the revised (nerfed) charge attack.

I have a feeling the change to the charge attack was made due to cosmetic reasons. The new charge attack does look a little more sensible -- rocks popping up where you previously stood doesn't exactly make a whole lot of sense given you are swinging forward. I just really doubt they have ever really taken the charge attack's power into consideration relative to other swords at that tier. It's not something you'd notice unless you used the sword fairly often.

It's hard to call it a vanity weapon and at the same time say the developers had a good reason to downgrade it, if vanity weapons really do represent an error on their part, as I'd argue.

This line of swords needs some OBVIOUS buffing to even become usable.

These swords look awesome, why aren't they awesome to use!?

My Jalovec does not even begin to compare with my avenger (now Divine Avenger).

bump

And another thread bumped about how suda/triglav need improvement. It'd be nice to know what the deal is with this, why OOO doesn't even test a change on their testing server.

*like to the concept of leaving behind vapor (from charge) like the vaporizers.
Also, a damage buff wouldn't really throw things out of balance considering that tri/sud are probably the slowest weapons in the game, and that the triglav line takes a ton of time to get (300 krogmo tokens, plus all the standard alchemizing costs). The massive knockback doesn't really cut it, especially since ur teammates can probly kill the monster before the hit even happens.

I love the troika line. It was my favorite sword from 2* on up. But compared to the other options, it is just awful. A Divine Avenger is better for every situation. Yeah, you are going to do slightly reduced damage to some enemy types, but the faster attack speed and ridiculous charge attack make up for it. Even without buying extra weapon slots, you can carry 2 different special damage swords and guarantee you do either normal or strong damage to every enemy.

I would like to see the damage buffed by about 20% or so, or the reach extended. It is longer than a sealed sword, so why does it have the same area of effect? The charge attack is similarly worthless. Why would I bring a Triglav and charge for 380 damage when I can bring a Divine Avenger and charge for 780 damage, plus extra with the beams? I think, to make the charge attack good, the damage would have to be increased by about 50%, and it would really help if you were invulnerable between the time you release the charge attack and it hits. The second or so where you can't move or defend yourself kills an already mediocre weapon.

Also, can we make the freeze effect happen after knockback, instead of replacing it? I really regret building a Triglav instead of a Sudaruska, because when I finish a combo, I expect the enemies to get knocked back, not frozen right next to where I end up.

The reason the Suda/Triglav Are nerfed so much is BECAUSE of the charge! The Unique thing about the Charge it The surprise Factor.

In Lockdown, you try Rushing in with a striker and getting SQUASHED by A preemptive, ASI, Grintovec/Triglav. Not only is almost all your Health gone, but your frozen/stunned and Completely open. I know this because I do this, ALL the time in pvp and clockworks. You fly into them, they go flying/are frozen, Rinse and repeat. The only thing i would change is MAYBE adding 5% more damage to everything OR slightly increasing the hit box of NORMAL swings. The Charge is just fine, and probably the best in the game IMO.