My my Shoebox, a slide whistle, really? Well, you get some points off the bat for making reference to such a comedic instrument that's been underused in recent years ;). But with that said... How to quote quoting of quotes on this forums makes framing arguments annoying. So for my replies, I'll reply to your counter-arguments (the ones that directly follow quotes) in numerical order in which they appear (It'd be a great help if you edited and numbered them so that my replies linked up better, thanks).

So, without further ado

Replies @ Shoebox:

1. So far the current payout system (And what you're probably referring to as "boosting") has shown itself to be ineffectual. Sure, one could argue that it's because we're just starting out, but I think the payout system is broken because the autosell feature makes the elevator deposit system a mindless affair. While I understand that was part of an effort to make the game more accessible, I think players need to give more thought when they use their minerals to constructing a new game world. As such, there should be more steps to make an impact, to make sure you know what you're doing (or at the very least, that you have a vested interest, as you've spent time and/or money getting to such a point). Furthermore, I believe that now the game is released, that with an influx of more people, elevator construction will move at a much more rapid pace, as people who are playing the game for free will dump more minerals randomly.
2. My, how "witty", going with the "greed" approach. Which type of gain, might I ask, are you referring to? The gaining of elevators that are enjoyable to play, constructed by groups of people who know and probably have a vested interest in the game? Or is it the new level of competition created by the mechanic? Oh, perhaps you aren't accusing me of gaining some form of monetary wealth, because in the system I propose, guilds will likely have to pay more crowns to make changes to the system, once the market develops. I find your attempt at witty sarcasm a little too "dry" and "cliche" for my tastes. At the end of the day though, I find nothing wrong with guilds in this game exercising some form of power... especially if you're familiar with the historical origin of "guilds".
3. You'll note that in the third paragraph of my introduction I used the words "at the moment" when talking about guilds. I'm quite aware the guild system isn't finished, though the game is now in the launch state, which should be noted in this regard. I also stated that I don't have access to the Game Design Document, nor their Development Schedule. As such, I'm merely proposing a way that the current guilds can be improved. I look forward to the other things they propose to do with guilds. No unfounded assumptions there. As for the second part of your counterargument, I agree. That's the minimum amount to be considered having a vested interest in the game, and have an effect upon the elevators. Of course, having paid that minimum, they'll have the minimum effect upon the elvators as well, as compared to guilds with multiple members striving for the same goal. If they wanted to have a greater effect, they can go and recruit others with like-minded goals, and then have a greater effect upon the elevators. My, I think this might create an extra incentive to gather more people into a guild. Once again, I see nothing wrong with guilds exercising some form of power.
4. That's really over-simpifying my system to a point that it's misleading. Considering the multiple points of transaction, it gives greater more possibility for planning and intrigue. This is evident in my first post.
5. Spending crowns to get more crowns? Really? Once again, oversimplification, and missing the point. That contention was a contention primarily to TRD. By people spending more crowns acquiring minerals, so that they can have influence upon the elevators, that means less crowns spent gobbling up the current items for sale, thus, creating more profitibility through longer game life, at least for those wishing to direct the creation of elevators. Though, there is certainly the opportunity for those who enjoy "marketplay" to buy low and sell high, in which case, I say "yay, hooray!", more gameplay elements added.
6. Well, perhaps you wouldn't, but others may. I'm sure those who contributed heavily towards the guild's cause would more likely than not be recognized for their efforts, and promoted, thus allowing them to advance through the guild. And if they had no interest in their guild's agenda, then there's always the open market, with fluctuating prices. As for your second part of this argument, you can refer to my third reply, in which I covered this already.

Alrighty... as far addressing the end of your post, I've been pondering the "private guild gates" idea, but I've not come to a conclusion about it yet. As far the gates remaining "public property"... No. They're the property of TRD and its investors, available through limited license. TRD is a business, and once again, I don't think it's wrong that those who invest more time (Which means they're more likely to spend money in the future, as well as generate more customers tengentally) or money into the game wield some measure of more power than those who haven't. They have a vested interest in not only the advancement of their avatars, but also the health of the game.

As for balancing of minerals, they already do that I'm sure, and I don't think it's enough. Not to mention my suggestion attempts to incorporate additional game elements, which I believe in the end makes the game more enjoyable.

Well, thank you Shoebox for your contribution, it was most appreciated. However, I would appreciate less snarky comments next to if possible (Of which I may have replied in kind). I look forward to your future contributions!

That change doesn't counter or nullify the system I proprosed (Read Contention 1). All it does is randomize the mineral types, but doesn't neccesarily remove the autosell problem. Nor does the point you brought up counter or nullify the other game elements I proposed. However, it's a welcome change, certainly, and part 2 of Phase II is mostly no longer needed.

I understand you didn't like me replying in kind to your earlier crass attempts at wittiness, however, unlike your first reply, your last reply isn't most appreciated, nor is it rather helpful. I'd dare say it barely qualifies as a "contribution".

To sum it up, simply put, your replies are no longer needed if you don't intend to contribute anymore constructive criticism or useful debate related to the topic.

Thank you though for your earlier post.

This is exactly the contribution I'm looking for, Shoebox, and I for one would wish to thank you for this heartfelt, well thought-out reasoning. And thank you again for using the ordered lists, since quoting isn't implemented on this board, so using ordered lists makes it easier to respond to specific points. I'd still hope you'd take the time to edit your original post into ordered list format as well. Finally, I'd wish to thank you with presenting your points without undue sarcasm.

Now, as for my response...

First off, to your first set of points...

1. Sound reasoning here so far...
2. First off ignorant means uneducated. But true, they are uneducated, I agree there, and in my fourth point of Phase I, I stated that there needs to be documentation, both in-game and outside of the game on this (As I'm always for more documentation). This would definitely help solve the current issue. However, just because they're educated doesn't mean they're not apathetic either. Keep in mind we'll be dealing with numerous players who will be playing the game for free, not as a "beta" or "preview, but simply as people clicking on a link to download the client, and try it out... and these people will have no investment in the game whatsoever. For this reason, it's highly likely they may be apathetic, especially when we're talking about "The Internet" here. With that said, time spent in the game usually dispels apathy... and with enough time spent in the game, if one wanted to have an effect upon elevator creation, they'd probably already have the resources to do so, or be involved in a guild already. If you're looking for a vague real-world comparison, think of it sort of like a driver's license, or citizenship. Not perfect comparisons, but decently close.
3. Agreed, more measures need to be taken to educate the playerbase as a whole. See my previous point for my thoughts on that.
4. (Going to address 4 & 5 together) I certainly had no qualms with the further balancing of minerals, I just didn't think that was the real source of the problem. If they believe that the minerals are more balanced, "yay hooray!". Now, you bring up an excellent idea here. We need a real time gauge to see what the mineral distribution is for the current level of the elevator. I envision a gauge that sort of functions like a pie chart, showing percentages of minerals deposited, except artistically, it would be rendered as a sort of copper-ish looking steampunk-like gauge. Perhaps a secondary linear gauge could show how far the current level of the elevator is from completion as well. These could pop off the sides of the elevator construction panel. Excellent Idea! However, as I've said before, I don't think education is the only cure to the current problem. But I'm sure we'll be re-treading this in the upcoming points...

Now, as for my response to your reasoning that you think my system fails...

1. Eh... Which "flavor" of communism are you talking about? The short-lived Post-WWI German Communism? Russian Communism? Chinese Communism? The list goes on, and the flavors are many, with different circumstances, different operating procedures, etc. But, if you don't mind, I'll assume that you mean Russian Communism, which is quite Totalitarian, which of course opens up a whole 'nother can of worms. There were many reasons for its failure... however... people were allowed to participate, but only as cogs in a machine. Of course, the machine wasn't all that well-oiled, and couldn't quite keep up with capitalist neighbors in the "west". My opinion on why the Soviet Union failed is because it was both outnumbered and the system they had was innefficient, while the "terror" purposely used to control people stifled creativity and worker morale, further resulting in less productivity. But I digress, and I'm sure you can find differing opinions on that matter. Returning on point, I'm not excluding anyone permanently. You said so yourself that anyone could participate if they could farm the required crowns and energy. As I said before, this is to make sure that they're at the very least invested in the game before making gameworld changing decisions.
2. Well, I like to think of the power as "earned" rather than "given". They gather individuals together, working towards a common goal of modifying the gates to meet their own desires. However, with the gate disrepair system, if the playerbase didn't like the gates, the gate would eventually fall into disrepair, and a new one could be built. The cycle will repeat, continuously. All one needs to do is tweak the disrepair system as needed, where only the players of one guild are not enough to maintain it. On that note, I'm not aware of this, but has it been stated what the limit to the number of gates is going to be, if there even is one?
3. "Viral Guilds", as you call them, can and will most likely be introduced anyway. We aren't all saints.
4. Well, they would be "stabilized", just to the guild's liking. Instead of it being almost random, it would be planned by the guilds competing for control. Or it may end up being a hodge podge, as different guilds compete over the same gate. But if it becomes a mess, the gate will fall into disrepair and be open for rebuilding once again.

And addressing your reasons that you think my concept is weak...

1. Actually, I wasn't aware up until this point that gates already had an expiration process. This changes a lot of things. Reading the wiki entry... When it says that a dormant gate goes live, with whatever levels were constructed, even if unfinished, does that mean it's an incomplete gate that doesn't go all the way down? or does that mean that they fill in the other levels randomly? If It's the former, then that means we've been gipped, and we're only being given an illusion of gameworld control for most part. This means that they hold our possible levels hostage if we decide to hoard crystals to make a more exacting change once we're ready, because if we keep hoarding, then there will be less content available to play. However, if it's the latter, that doesn't change all that much. I'm more inclined to the use-based system though, as that means that things that are popular stay in, and things that aren't popular are eventually removed, which keeps unwanted content out.
2. Well, the definition of "fun" is a sort of nebulous thing. One would observe that the many top-tier players of "WoW" have fun wearing the same types of equipment that everyone suited for their role wears, simply because it's optimized for the great effect. Sort of like how many of the players here are observed "having fun" wearing wolver sets, carrying Divine Avengers or Fausts, Omega Tortoise Shields, and keeping Voltech Alchemers or some variant of the Antigua... Which leads to people claiming Monster Bone doesn't spawn enough... but I digress once again! Simply put, there's many definitions of fun, so saying that a "varied" gate is "fun" is true, depending on the person, but an "optimized" gate can be fun as well. The plaques are purely for bragging rights, and do give guilds a goal to work towards, guild represent! As for bonuses given for those who make the gates, I said I was rather wary, due to not wanting to permanently empower guilds with such bonuses. The undertaking of such a task should cost the guild many resources, but as a reward, they get a gate that suits their desires, and so, the undertaking of organizing and gathering all the resources required to construct the gate as they see fit is rewarding in of itself, providing levels in the order that they want, as well as spreading the fame of their guild. It should be noted though that not all guilds would choose optimized gates, that's an assumption that guilds (and players) have no other desire other than optimization.
3. Well, the forums don't require that I be devoid of emotion when presenting my ideas, do they? Anyhow, as I've already discussed the nebulousness of the definition of "fun", I'll work on the possible elements of fun that could be had. Guilds, at this moment, where the game is in the state of public launch (or "release product"), are really, as I stated earlier, overglorified chat channels and extended friendlists. What I proposed would give guilds more of a mechanical goal incorporated into the game. This could easily lead to another reason to rally up members to organize as a cohesive unit, working to gather certain minerals, play the mineral market to gain said minerals, or undermine opposing guilds attempts to gain said minerals, and trade said minerals as neccesary. The guild progresses ever more towards its goal, and as they dump the needed minerals when the time comes, they build a level to their liking, with a nice little plaque proclaiming their success. Players then enjoy the fruits of their labor, having enjoyed comradery, as well as the whirl of competition against other guilds, and finally, a sense of acheivement at having accomplished an impact upon the gameworld. And the cycle repeats. All levels of the guild get to enjoy various game elements, just different flavors. The elevators take on an aspect of fun in that they're generated by groups of players in competition, and will likely suit not only the needs of a specific guild, but also a variety of players with similar goals. And should the elevator be found unwanted, it will fade into disrepair, to be rebuilt once again. Finally, I'm for more Guild features to be added, though this suggestion is limited to the control of elevators by guilds. I'm personally a fan of organizations competing in an environment, if you couldn't tell already. See such games as Dark Ages of Camelot and Eve as examples of "Epic Group Competition", albiet this game doesn't quite fall into that category, I wouldn't mind introducing some of those elements (Clan-based Team PvP Arena Mode would be a start).

To address your ending points, true, it is too early to tell the exact effects that the new mineral randomization will have, though I don't think it will be the fix-all. If you don't mind me asking though, could you cite where TRD said that mineral ratios are based off of current mineral usage? Or is that your own suggestion? Currently, with the last update, all I see is slightly more randomization of minerals, though within relative levels of the theme of the area that they spawn in. I apologize if I missed the further explanation of the current system somewhere (As we've been saying, more documentation needed).

Anyhow, once again, thank you for this contribution. It's highly helpful, and a wonderful piece of debate!

Thinking it over some more... what we're really encountering, Shoebox, are strong ideological differences. Now, removing point 2 from Phase I (Only Guild Officers have access), point 2 from Phase II (Outdated), and points 3 and 5 from Phase III (Elevator Disrepair and the Optional Guild Reward bonuses)... What do you think of the rest of the suggestions? I'm interested in feedback on those seperately. Thanks!