Spiral Knights - dual wielding

dual wielding

26 replies [Last post]

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 02:07

Dagunner

three OOO should add to the game dual weapon upgrade to buy from boost to dual wield weapons. it would work by making the knight hold the first weapon in his left hand and second in his right hand with its shield attached to the arm. the way the knight would change weapons would to use change to previous weapon to change the first weapon and next weapon to change the second weapon.

the way attacking would work would be to make it so that when your knight attacks they either use both swords at the same time or do the second sword shortly after the first. and charge attacks would work like normal attacks, at the same time or one after the other.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 02:22

Starlinvf

You have no idea how times

You have no idea how times this has come up, and the same basic problem is how to handle defense.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 05:16

Juances

His idea seems different, he

His idea seems different, he wants both weapons to be controled simultaneously with one buttons and preserve the shield.

Besides being OP:
animations-->i can imagine this working with brandishes but any other non-normal sword combination will look weird

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 06:06

Heroforgotten

Hmmm....

Maybe a special type of sword weapon that is tailor made for dual wielding at as 3 - 5 star weapon?

As in, you buy one weapon but it's actually twin swords. I've seen a few other MMOs do the same thing instead of just allowing any one handed weapon to be dualwieldable. I liked the concept a lot and it would be cheaper, AH wise, since you're only buying one weapon instead of two.

Also, by making it a single weapon, you can equip two swords and the shield, since it'll take a single weapon slot. From what I've seen, shields are worn on the arm anyways for the character animation and it does leave a hand you can put a weapon in easily.

Only issue with this is it will require new animations specific to the weapons, mainly a new charge animation.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 14:07

Vlad

already suggested in a very old thread

and now it's dead.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 14:27

Khamsin

Cutter Series = dual wield.

Mon, 10/31/2011 - 14:46

Orangeo

NOOO THIS HAS BEEN SHOT DOWN

NOOO THIS HAS BEEN SHOT DOWN INF TIMES
As if the weapon trinkets werent annoying enough in pvp! I'd understand making say, a weapon called "dual colt", that was legitimitely just one gun split in half or something, with equal attack power to anything else, but no extra weapon crap. Like what Heroforgotten said.
Dropping shivermists and voltacs at once would be OP, dual antiguas would be OP, etc etc.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 03:27

Master-Of

This is a very good suggestion. I think the best way would be doing the second sword after the first, like you suggested in the end. Also, it should be limited to swords. So you can't combine guns or bombs. It also balances out to some degree, because the behavior of the knight would be hard to control and funny. For example: A Troika would push enemies away and you wouldn't be able to hit it with a second swipe of a Spur or a Brandish. The charge attack of a Troika would bring you forward, while a Spur makes you hop backwards.
Maybe OOO could decrease damage a little bit, to balance it even further and the background would be, that a knight can't hit that hard, when he carries two swords while he also has a shield attached to one arm.
I don't think it would be too much work for OOO, because i think a lot of the sword objects and animations could just be mirrored to fit to the other hand of the knights. So it's probably not a huge refactor.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 12:19

Warriorrogue

I had this idea, but slightly

I had this idea, but slightly different, with only guns. but, i thought, it would be OP
2 antigua lines=12 shots before reloading, and with charge, 2 eagles/owls
autogun lines=charge=30 shots. that's deadly-done it with someone else:D
pulsar=6 explosions
catalyser=quick build up of orbs, then hard to dodge 6 explosive exploding shots.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 15:30

Windsickle

How about only a few choice

How about only a few choice weapons, the lighter weapons (no Troikas, Sealed Swords, other heavy guns and bombs?), be viable for dual use, while the heavy ones could be used for two handed use for extra damage, speed, ctr, etc. I know about the whole "blocking/shield too important" argument so how about one can block with certain dualwielded/2handed1 weapons. This would be a special block that does not block very much damage whatsoever, but can perform a knockback similar to a shield bash yet faster and more convenient than just hitting a monster. Thoughts?

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 16:13

#10

Thinslayer

Dual wield or defense?

@Starlinvf: "You have no idea how times this has come up, and the same basic problem is how to handle defense." But that's the beauty of dual wielding! It presents you with a choice, which has its ups and downs; a dilemma of sorts. If you dual wield, you sacrifice defense, but gain firepower and additional knockback abilities, while single-wielding would sacrifice the additional firepower but enable the use of your shield. Dual-wielding would only be possible with swords and guns, because it doesn't make sense with bombs.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 16:55

#11

Orangeo

No one seems to comprehend

No one seems to comprehend how deeply this really would alter game mechanics. It's like making a suggestion that says "let's make SK a 1st person game!" or something.
"How about only a few choice weapons"
That would piss people off who didn't have said choice weapons. The DA had the same problem before OOO decided to fix the charge. Explaining myself on these threads is honestly tiring, the only good idea is heroforgottens.

Tue, 11/01/2011 - 18:50

#12

Windsickle

@Orangeo

Wouldn't Heroforgotten's idea basically be just a series of swords with different animations? And in explanation of the "only a few choice weapons" idea, all weapons that didn't fit that category would be viable for use in the 2 hands for 1 weapon category.

Wed, 11/02/2011 - 08:29

#13

Master-Of

Also it's okay to piss a few

Also it's okay to piss a few people off a bit, in the name of innovation.
They say you can't save the world without pushing a few grannies down the stairs.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 00:07

#14

Dagunner

it would be an optional thing

it would be an optional thing like weapon slot upgrade and also the shield would still be able to use if put in a different place like forearm.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 00:12

#15

Dagunner

it wouldnt hurt to put it in

the thing is that putting it in wouldn`t hurt anyone plus putting it in would make more people buy more Ce so everyone wins because the people who dont want it would just ignore it.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 01:38

#16

Niichi

@ Thinslayer But that's the

@ Thinslayer

But that's the beauty of dual wielding! It presents you with a choice, which has its ups and downs; a dilemma of sorts. If you dual wield, you sacrifice defense, but gain firepower and additional knockback abilities, while single-wielding would sacrifice the additional firepower but enable the use of your shield.

Nobody - and I really do mean nobody - should be encouraged to enter the Clockworks unable to use their shield. We already saw the problems that causes when the Lockdown bug caused players to end up with their shields unequipped. Players accidentally entered Clockworks without re-equipping their shields and said players proceeded to die a fair bit until they got to the terminal and were able to change equipment. Especially in Tier 3, you simply can't get through this game well at all without some degree of shield bumping and/or tanking hits head on with it.

No, any such system still needs to allow for defensive measures. Although that said, I don't know why anyone would want to dual wield outside of it being a novelty. I mean, I have a variety of swords that fulfill very different roles. If I'm using my Divine Avenger then it's likely I'm trying to smash a construct or undead to pieces and therefore I wouldn't really want my Gran Faust or Barbarous Thorn Blade to be mixing into the combo. It doesn't really work unless you're bringing two of the same damage type sword into the area, and I don't know why'd you want to do that outside of very rare specific purposes.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 08:02

#17

Master-Of

@Niichi Nobody - and I really

@Niichi
Nobody - and I really do mean nobody - should be encouraged to enter the Clockworks unable to use their shield.

I think, people should have this choice, so everyone can do as he pleases. Also, a warning message could pop up, to make sure one knows about the risk, before buying it and when one equips it.
Also, there could be additional checkboxes/options to disallow people without shields in your parties or to disable you joining into parties with some members not having a shield. Though I don't know what would happen at terminals ... could be complicated to solve that.

We already saw the problems that causes when the Lockdown bug caused players to end up with their shields unequipped. Players accidentally entered Clockworks without re-equipping their shields and said players proceeded to die a fair bit until they got to the terminal and were able to change equipment.

Yeah, but that was on accident. They didn't plan or expect it, so they kinda got on a surprise suicide mission. If you plan it in before, it's totally different, because you'd equip different things and have some tactics ready, to make up for having no shield. It's a bit like Swiftstrike or Scarlet (or even the Fallen, Mad Bomber and Chaos sets): You hardly use it in Tier 3 and whenever you use it, you have to make up for its weakness.

No, any such system still needs to allow for defensive measures.

While I don't think it is absolutely necessary, it is still possible to implement it in a way that still allows shielding. I think this also has been mentioned in some other thread. It could be balanced with penalties, if having a trinket slot occupied and many weapons not working well together wouldn't be enough of a balance.

PS:
In the following thread I also suggested weapons, with some of them occupying the shield slot, but with replacements to shielding, like dodging, blocking or having something protect just your back: Multi Slot Power Weapons Occupying Not Just Weapon Slots
This may also work for the trinket suggested in here.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 10:45

#18

Niichi

@ Desouler

I think forcing shields is a necessary gameplay feature. Namely you're not going to survive without a shield (or at least most players won't, just in case a select few elite somehow manage to stroll through the hardest areas of the game solo without coming anywhere near damage) so dual wielding is basically putting an excessive burden on other team members who have to keep reviving them.

Sure some people go in with lower star stuff like swiftstrike, but they still have a shield. They can shield bump and can at least have the shield absorb small attacks and absorb some of the damage of larger attacks.

If a system is done where you can dual wield and still have some form of defensive measure I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to it. Although I would recommend it being locked out to early game players, who typically need to learn to avoid and block damage before they can start thinking about something more advanced like running with reduced defensive power.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 17:02

#19

Dagunner

you can still have a shield

you would still be able to have a shield because its not held by the hand. if u look carefully the shield is actually on the arm not held in the hand meaning that you would still use shield just perhaps dual wielding decrease attack speed or reload speed.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 17:16

#20

Khamsin

The only way I could see dual

The only way I could see dual wield working well was if you had one "weapon" that was two weapons being dual wielded. Dual daggers in Global Agenda being an example of what I'm talking about. The thing about that viable approach is that they'd have similar functionality to weapons that already exist - cutters. Unless you added some new sort of gimmick like they did critical damage from behind or something... that could actually be fun, but unless you did something like that, I don't know if this would be a good idea.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 17:25

#21

Orangeo

Anyone think OOO would

Anyone think OOO would actuualy put this in the game? I think not. On top of that, I wouldn't, given the choice. Kashimins ideas fine, it's basicaly one weapon that is two parts. Like the nightblade, the sheith is carried in the other hand. Stick a knife there instead, wala. Still one "weapon", in one slot, and is perfectly balanced.

"Wouldn't Heroforgotten's idea basically be just a series of swords with different animations?"
Yes, and?

This is like adding another damage type. Or adding another symbol to rock paper scissors. It dosen't fit.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 17:57

#22

Fehzor

I would absolutely love this,

I would absolutely love this, and I'm sure it could be implemented fine, though I doubt OOO will make it.

Thu, 11/10/2011 - 22:26

#23

Tsubasa-No-Me

Personally...

I think that adding this would be a blessing and a boon...

On one hand, using two weapon slots seems to be a bit much, more so if you try using DA and BTB in combination. (25% normal 25% Ele 50% pierce Blegh! An Anigua... Sword mode! doesnt even matter WHAT you hit, it'll do the same damage... XP ) and on the other, just making new animations seems silly...

-So, what about making it recipes that are bound when gotten, that require two 4* swords... Some taking two of the same sword and others using two different swords...

-You would only get to use one weapon slot, but two Level 10 4* swords to make one sword kinda evens things out... This also would let some 4* swords to have a 5* version... Try two Winmillions flying across the field, getting Spiked all over! XD

-Swords of different speeds cant be combined (A DA and a BTB just wouldn't work)

-The damages for the new weapon shouldn't be the two previous types mashed together, that's just messy! The new damage should be well thought out and effects changed e.g. A Faust and Avenger should deal ALL normal damage and cause sleep and/or stun, 'Cause the Ele and Shadow are supposed to be opposites with these swords, and the avenger cant curse things :/

-Now, a controversial bit... wait for it... ANIMATIONS! (Gasp!) First, what makes a new sword line fun? Different animations. The're not bad, in fact, they can add another layer of variety and massively change strategies... For example: the Troika at one point finally got past being 2* only (Forgive me if i'm wrong, I started after that :/ ) what about its difficult charge attack? For some it was like a ray of sunshine, and others could care less... Fact is, different kinds of weapons and attacks can make a mediocre Knight really shine!

-The animations should make you vulnerable, long animations (Doesn't mean the attacks are slow, just that the animation is long, giving it a "HIT pause... HIT" feel) and repercussions for shielding in the middle of a combo... (Try movement speed down or a ASI down for a while)

Do tell me what you think?

~The Voice of Seimei No Ki

Fri, 11/11/2011 - 11:39

#24

Orangeo

"and on the other, just

"and on the other, just making new animations seems silly"
basicaly a new weapon. not silly, but not special either.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 15:07

#25

Sevinoss

OOO Could just modify a few animations from the cutter and spur lines for duals.
Love the idea of a dual sword, hate the idea of having no defenses. The blocking (parry) idea makes sense, but don't shields break after a few hits? Then we have to run in circles and slash at everything until the shield recharges. If we use parrying as a dual's version of a shield, what happens when that busts? Would there still be a recharge/cool time, or would we just keep trucking and act like it never happened? One of the disadvantages of the dual swords could be that, if you block after so many times, you can't attack until you recharge, just like you can't shield bump well until recharged.

Sun, 11/27/2011 - 17:28

#26

Aumir

-1 to OP, +1 to "dual wielded weapon" or similar

As people said, dual wielding just as "that" wouldn't be easy to do. It may be only workable with "same weapon type" ones or the same weapon twice... As above poster says, disabling the weapons after "blocking" should also work.

About a double wielded weapon, daggers come to mind (there has been a mention too in the Spanish forum). Instead of shielding, shield-push could maybe sort of "counter" enemies that were close and inflict them damage/pushback/status...

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