Spiral Knights - What will hopefully amount to a productive suggestion for a gun line.

What will hopefully amount to a productive suggestion for a gun line.

15 replies [Last post]

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 03:09

Retequizzle

You'll have to forgive me in advance if this idea seems a little scattered at first. But here we go!

So I started thinking today as I was drinking my hypothetical cup of tea with my fancy monocle mustache - as I usually do, I should mention - about something this game lacks. And that, ladies and other fancy monocle'd gentlemen who may or may not have mustaches as manly as mine, is this:

Shotguns.

Yes, I said it - SK requires shotguns. I mean, think about it. We have handguns. We have SMGs essentially. We've got guns that even put Knights flat on their rear from the recoil in some cases. So why not a shotgun line? In the end, I don't feel like it would be too overpowered with some of the concepts listed below, since good gunslingers (who don't let enemies get close) wouldn't have a very strong need for it, and other players wouldn't necessarily want this gun unless they had ideas in mind for how to use it.

The physics would work like this - the closer you are to your target, the more damage you inflict, since more pellets would enter into the target. So in that manner, each pellet would have a damage value, with the idea of every pellet hitting yielding the highest damage potential.

As far as range and utility is concerned, I feel that a 3-4 block range is adequate for a shotgun to be relatively effective (3 blocks guaranteeing 100% damage is inflicted, with a drop off to about 75% for 4 blocks away, and have a steep drop off from there on out). The knockback from the shotgun should be relatively high, but require a reload after every shot, with the reload animation being slightly slower than your typical reload for a gun.

The charge attack could be a stronger shot but take a while to charge (maybe the amount of time to charge the Gran Faust, or 75% of that ideally but yeah, this is also to prevent abuse). Charge attack effects would be stronger knockback, a 1.5x damage multiplier per pellet hit, and at higher upgrade levels, High Chance of (Enter Status Here).

Yes, you did read that paragraph correctly as well - one shot = one reload, regardless of who uses it. This would be in order to prevent over-use in certain situations and cornering large masses of enemies with a semi-automatic shotgun. While the concept is cool, in practice it would probably break the game to the point that no one would want to use anything else.

As far as actual gun design goes, I feel that a sawed-off shotgun being used as the base design would work great. It's got a break stock that would allow the gun to be reloaded from the back and rechambering the shotgun shell into the barrel. Imagine a double-barrel shotgun and how it reloads, and there you go.

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Potential benefits of the shotgun line, if implemented - Gunners would not be as restricted in their close-range options. Realistically, gunners don't have much of an answer to mobs except to shield bash and hope there's an opening to walk out afterwards. On top of that, while gunners have a solid line of armors (although their armor EFFECTS could use a nice buff or a new line to round out some of where it's lacking), I still feel like the gunslingers in general need more answers to deal with various threats without deviating from their class structure, in a sense. Conceptually, the strong knockback would make it a close-range option for those who get cornered in general, not just gunslingers, thus allowing for smarter players to use the shotgun to free themselves and shield bash an additional enemy for more breathing room. Hey, it might seem like an overpowered option here, but they're already throwing knockback onto energy revives in the testing server tomorrow, so apparently this is a feasible option too.

Potential problems of the shotgun line, if implemented - Bad gunners who don't know what they're doing with it would run in and essentially kill themselves because they think they have the best of both worlds now. Might otherwise give too much of a boon to gunslingers that otherwise don't have a reason to run into a fight unless they solo a lot, and even then the shotgun's purpose would largely be negated if a gunslinger just doesn't let themselves get cornered.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 03:35

Memento

Shotguns?

I'll take ten.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 05:39

Geregias

range

i dont understand peoples fascination with saying scatter gun style weapons should have a restricted range, shotguns are still guns they are meant for long range attack
yes i understand that the closer you are the more pellets will contact the target IRL making them more deadly at short range but the whole point is to hit an area or 'scatter shot over a large area' originally to kill birds and other small creatures that are otherwise difficult to hit with a standard rifle
this generally translates to games as a mid range weapon capable of dealing with mobs or inflicting large damage on a single very close target

thats my criticism (and rant) and now: hell yes we want shotguns. id invite you to read my last thread on the subject here.
scatter pistols/ sawn off shotguns keep with the handgun style of weapons

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 06:18

Khamsin

I'm thinking the shotgun

I'm thinking the shotgun ought to be "double barrel" and have two shots before reloading, or one shot and wait for kiting. The attack should be similar to the new DA charge, although obviously not traveling through the enemy. Just that sort of spread and a bit of pushback.

A normal full piercing shotgun, and an incendiary round shotgun that does reduced split piercing/elemental and triggers fire would be fine. Making it incendiary would prevent too much overuse in FSC/UFSC because its damage potential would be limited.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 07:07

Kentard

I did have an idea here...

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/31554
Not very developed if you know what I mean but in any case, here are the details for the Shardgun idea of mine:
"Speed: SLOW, Range: SHORT, Damage: MED, Damage Type: Normal
Description: Complete with three barrels, scattering buckshots and a nice oak finish. Parental guidance is advised.
Basic Attack: A slow, 3-shot combo. Five separate bullets are scattered at random angles, each dealing low damage and knocking the enemy back. You cannot move or turn while firing.
Charge Attack: Fires three massive slug rounds, one from each barrel, at random angles. Each round has a chance to stun that decreases the further the round travels.
---
The Shardgun allows gun users to compensate for low DPS, however it forces them to engage targets at close range, much like the Autogun. The charge attack is particularly useful in slowing fast-moving melee enemies down with a stun that makes the gun's point blank attack even more lethal, but at long ranges the gun is even more useless than the Autogun as the shots are scattered randomly."

tl;dr, shotguns are a +1 for me. allows gunners to become deadly at close range, and allows for more options in playing style.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 10:24

Retequizzle

@ Geregias: That's also fine,

@ Geregias: That's also fine, but the main reason I was trying to intentionally make my own suggestion have a downside was so even in one of its least ideal designs, it still has a purpose of being regarded as a "close-range projectile weapon". If we were to take your suggestion of not nerfing the range intentionally, then since it'd replicate a sawed-off design, the distance could be on par with the antigua lines, but the actual "spread" should follow along with the autogun spread.

@ Khamsin: I'd love a solid piercing gun and piercing/elemental, especially if it inflicts fire damage. One other idea would be a poison variation - dealing solid piercing damage, but I feel like the damage should be reduced slightly so that the poison status would still put it on par with a elemental/piercing weapon of the same line.

@ Kentard: I feel like calling it the "Shardgun" would kind of negate the purpose since I was trying to avoid making a gun version of a bomb. That being said, I also feel like 3 shots is overkill for a close range gun. I mostly want to keep the shotgun as a primary weapon for when you're cornered, or strictly a hit-and-run gun. I do like the notion of keeping the shotgun as a "stop and shoot weapon" to help reinforce that though.

I'm in class right now but I'll try to construct a description of sorts this afternoon/evening. I'm thinking we should start with a 3* weapon and have it follow the same spread as a gunpuppy, where 3* would have a tight grouping to replicate the T1 Gunpuppy, 4* having a spread reminiscient of a T2 Gunpuppy, and the 5* versions spreading a bit more (not much beyond the 4* version) to simulate the T3 gunpuppy. It'd also make it easy to have a muzzle modeled after a gunpuppy head since it'd make sense.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 10:35

Windsickle

@Retequizzle

I've been thinking the same thing. Gunners need a reliable, close-range gun with good knock-back.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 10:40

Khamsin

"@ Khamsin: I'd love a solid

"@ Khamsin: I'd love a solid piercing gun and piercing/elemental, especially if it inflicts fire damage. One other idea would be a poison variation - dealing solid piercing damage, but I feel like the damage should be reduced slightly so that the poison status would still put it on par with a elemental/piercing weapon of the same line."

I don't know about poison status. Having a standard, poison, and fiery variants would make it seem too similar to the autogun series. If we were going to have another variant alongside the incendiary, perhaps this line could mimic the flourish line and have a stun variant. A normal damage stun variant, perhaps with a little extra knockback, could sort of round out the lot.

I sort of agree now though with the "being locked in place while shooting" comment. Shooting a shotgun one handed while running seems a little over the top and probably would make kiting zombies too easy. I'm thinking three shots and a reload would be fine. Each shot is an animation of you shooting it and then pumping it.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 11:51

Retequizzle

But I can't think of any

But I can't think of any logical sawed-off that requires a pump-action to chamber a new shell. :P But I'll concede my point about the poison shotgun and abandon that since I completely forgot they put in a poison version of the autogun. I suppose having fire and stun as primary effects focused on here is more than enough as it is.

Anyway, here's my first attempt at winging up descriptions and such for the main line (the pure piercing line). I'm only doing the 3* version for now in case people want to add on more to this. And by all means, feel free to critique anything I've written for this weapon! Even if you think this is a bad idea, I'd really like to hear ideas on this since I might see if I can get a graphics designer I know to perhaps do a few sketches for how it would look if we can get some more solid ideas together.

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Weapon Name: Spreader

Weapon Description: An early-model prototype designed from blueprints salvaged from the Skylark's research facility, based off of the Gunpuppies commonly found within the Clockworks.

Weapon Appearance: A pistol grip of some sort, simplistic in nature since it's still a 3* weapon. Where the weapon would typically be reloaded by breaking the barrel back and reloading shells into the weapon, the barrel is replaced with a modified version of a gunpuppy head. The gunpuppy's "snout" would be elongated and fit to form around the barrel of the gun, and should look maybe 25% larger than Bechemel's Love Puppy when held in a Knight's Hand. Size-wise, it is mostly comparable to the Magnus line, with maybe a 20% increase to the barrel length and width.

Amount of Stars: Three star weapon.

Non-Charged Attack: 1-3 shots before a reload, dealing below average damage (on par with Antigua's numbers on average). You figure the Antigua does a relatively small amount per bullet but the entire clip puts it on par with the rest of the guns as well, so the same concept applies here, just in a much more blanket fashion. Each pellet does a small amount of damage for a "spread-based weapon" but cumulatively the gun is formidable as a 3* gun when all the projectiles hit a target that can take damage. The Knight firing the weapon cannot move during the attack animation. The non-charged attack has a small chance of inflicting minor stun at all ranges, and causes knockback. If there is only one shot per reload, I'd like the knockback to be at least 3 squares. If two shots per reload, 1.5-2 squares per shot, and if three shots per reload, then push back 1.5 squares at most.

Charged Attack: The Knight turns his body slightly, putting the side holding the shotgun forward more, and shoots the gun one handed. The charge shot should have a strong chance of minor stun at all ranges, with knockback being 4 squares at all ranges on normal enemies, and one square on heavy enemies such as trojans or bosses. The recoil from the charge shot would leave the Knight completely immobile until the reload animation is complete, OR if the weapon is swapped to another handgun. In essence, this gun's charge attack would be seen as a "final gambit" on a Knight's part to either push back a mob significantly, and would require a bit more judgment than what I initially planned for this.

Reload Speed Suggestions: If one shot, given my modification to the charge shot description, I would not be opposed to having this become a regular speed reload weapon. If two shots, I want reload speed to be on par with the Magnus lines, and if three shots, I want the reload speed to be 25% slower than the Magnus lines, since you have to reload each shell individually (although the animation would likely display otherwise unless OOO specifically developed movements for this gun line, which would be FANTASTIC).

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 12:39

Grey-Fawkes

Sounds great

This sounds like a very nice idea, and it would definitely give gunners a bit more brute offensive force.

At the moment, I can think of two ways that these guns would fire:

1. A "Double Barrel" type shotgun that fires Piercing projectiles, similar to the Snarble Barb line, but at a much higher velocity and a tighter cone. (With a bit more range too! Maybe 5 blocks?) Perhaps an effective cone of around 30 degrees. Preferably, these projectiles would be rather small; maybe smaller versions of the Antigua projectiles? This weapon line has a magazine size of 2, and cannot be fired while moving. (Picture the Autogun!) When charged up, this weapon fires both shots in a quick volley, and knocks the user back. The weapon line starts at three stars, and fires 4 projectiles per shot. Each time the weapon is upgraded, it gains an extra 2 projectiles per shot. This type of shotgun would be meant for inflicting high damage on single or very close together targets.

2. A futuristic looking gun that discharges a widespread pulse over a large area. (I pictured the Blitz Gun from Ratchet and Clank.) A range of around 5-6 blocks, with a 60 degree firing cone. As stated, rather than firing any projectiles, this weapon produces a 'pulse' that deals mediocre damage, but VERY large knockback. This weapon line can only fire once before it needs to be reloaded, and cannot be fired while moving. When charged up, this weapon fires a slightly larger pulse that has a Good chance of causing Moderate Stun, and knocks the user back. The weapon line starts at three stars. Each time the weapon is upgraded, it gains 1/2 a block of extra range and +5 degrees to its firing cone. This type of shotgun would be meant for crowd control more than inflicting damage.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 14:44

#10

Frostythepyro

as a vaugly related note,

as a vaugly related note, when i read the pepperbox discription from the wiki, i thought it fired like a shotgun. was sad when i learned it didnt. Fortunatly i hadnt started building one yet so no lose.

Sat, 11/05/2011 - 17:51

#11

Retequizzle

So uh. Anyone have any

So uh. Anyone have any suggestions they'd like to add on? I feel like the pulse-version that Grey Fawkes said would have made a great gun on its own actually but I'm not sure what to think of it otherwise. :s

Sat, 11/05/2011 - 19:41

#12

Tsubasa-No-Me

Antigua-Style

If we have pistols from a previous era, why not bring back one of the OLD shotguns. Most of the guns are energy based, which in comparison seems to give them large, high knockback, High pushback attacks and charges. The Antigua causes piercing damage (Makes sense, little pieces of metal being shot into you) so if you took the old Boomstick (The one that the end of the barrel looks like a trumpet) and make it fire pellets that are smaller than the autogun's and fire much more of them, then you would have a very good Antigua like gun.

Now, the spread would have to be VERY wide, say 3.5-5 squares wide and 3 squares max range. It would not have knockback, only interrupt and knockdown. The pellets should move quite fast and some should only go to 1/3 of the max range. You should move at 50% speed when firing; I'll leave the clever names up to OOO. (Setanza or what ever was quite clever)

This idea is a Viable one, but needs to be nerfd like all guns.

~The Voice of Seimei No Ki

Mon, 11/07/2011 - 00:19

#13

Nergee

shotty ftw!

i was hoping for a similar gun myself! im hoping for something inspired by metal slug (the old arcade game from neo geo) - for those that have played alien swarm, im thinking of a shotgun like that. rather than a gun whose main attribute was push-back, i was thinking something along the lines of a very high damage gun with a wide range so gunners could have more crowd DPS. it would be a single-shot gun that has an unlimited damage cone about 3 squares in length and in width like the new DA charge-up. i'd prefer if it interrupted attacks instead of pushing back, but perhaps they could be two separate lines of the same "genus". i envisioned the charge-up to reach 4 squares and be about 150% the width of the normal shot, except blast things far back like a SS' second swing. basically, it would be a gun that would absolutely deadly in the right hands, and just meh in a nub's hands with decreased range and clip size to prevent it from being OP.

in terms of art, i favor a futuristic look that makes it look like something that can be called "energy cannon" that fires a blue light in the shape of the damage cone. a chance to stun or shock would be absolutely awesome.

i dont particular find the suggested name appealing, because spreader reminds me of things you spread on bread :3

Mon, 11/07/2011 - 01:28

#14

Rageling

I'm a fan of this idea and Id

I'm a fan of this idea and Id like to add that:

A. The snarby set has sword/bomb/shield/helm/coat. (something is missing I wonder what =P)

B. snarby is piercing themed.

C. Multiple spikes fly out of the Charge form of BTB and snarby itself also shoots multiple spikes. (Therefore the coding is already available.)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Thu, 01/12/2012 - 23:53

#15

Retequizzle

This thread deserves a much

This thread deserves a much overdue bump. Everyone's had a few months to think about it, let's restart some brainstorming and see what we can get going for this.

(Felt this was better than just remaking my thread, sue me if it was a bad idea).

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What will hopefully amount to a productive suggestion for a gun line.