Spiral Knights - Gran Faust Speed.

Gran Faust Speed.

16 replies [Last post]

Mon, 11/14/2011 - 20:47

Ekita

Hello,to start out with I am not at all familiar with editing the Wiki,and thought I would need some sort of permission to post anything controversial on the Wiki.

On to what I was talking about.Ever since I have gotten Gran Faust the speed bar on it has bugged me,and that popular belief says that the speed bar lies.However every time I have compared Gran Faust to the Divine Avenger in the advanced training hall it has always seemed I could eyeball a slight weapon speed difference.So recently I have done numerous tests and found that Gran Faust is slightly faster than the Divine Avenger.

I was thinking about posting the data on the wiki,but I don't really know if I should.Some say that the data is negligible, however I feel that any weapon speed difference can make a difference in the end.

What do you guys think?

Mon, 11/14/2011 - 22:29

Extribble

Me wants your #'s

As far as I've been able to tell, the attack speed is exactly the same... If you are willing to post your numbers here that will probably help your case, but I honestly doubt there is any difference since an extremely small difference can be easily caused by human error. It also seems you're implying the bars don't lie too badly, but they clearly do. The GF's bar implies that it's twice as fast as the DA, when it clearly is not, even if a slight difference exists as you stated :P

This is probably a given, but be sure you tested both weapons with the same exact gear/UV's so that the final ASI bonus (if any) will be equivalent when testing each sword.

Anyways, I'd like to see those numbers :3

Tue, 11/15/2011 - 14:54

Ekita

You can has mah numbahs

Im going to post the data like I did on the forum post I made on the arsenal (It was one of those "Divine Avenger or Gran Faust"Posts).

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING!
STOPWATCH TEST 1.0;ON GOOD GAMING SYSTEM:
What was tested:The amount of time it takes to do one successful combo

Speed Test: Gran Faust VS Divine Avenger
Each trial here is the time it takes me to complete one combo.This test was done on a very good gaming system.
Gran Faust:
Trial 1:1.38 seconds
Trial 2:1.39 seconds
Trial 3:1.35 seconds
Trial 4:1.27 seconds
Trial 5:1.30 seconds
Trial 6:1.27 seconds
Trial 7:1.31 seconds
Trial 8:1.29 seconds
Trial 9:1.23 seconds
Trial 10:1.33 seconds
Average = 1.312 seconds
Divine Avenger:
Trial 1:1.33 seconds
Trial 2:1.37 seconds
Trial 3:1.43 seconds
Trial 4:1.33 seconds
Trial 5:1.37 seconds
Trial 6:1.35 seconds
Trial 7:1.30 seconds
Trial 8:1.31 seconds
Trial 9:1.37 seconds
Trial 10:1.44 seconds
Average = 1.36 seconds

Like I said;very,very,very slight.Negligible?Perhaps.
I am running on a pretty good system.It might be different for other people with near crap for computers.If I could get my hands on a lagtastic computer I would do the test on that computer as well.*looks back at the computer behind me*

STOPWATCH TEST 1.1;MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY
What was tested:Time it takes to do one successful combo on a computer with minimum requirements for Spiral Knights

Alright,laggy computer tests are in.
Just to tell you how laggy this computer is.on graphics quality low,you cannot"Spam"the attack button because you will end up charging your weapon instead after the first strike.Also note I am unable to solo Snarby in proto gear on this computer because he lags me so incredibly bad.
Weapon speed test:Lagtastic computer

Gran Faust
Trial 1:1.36 seconds
Trial 2:1.44 seconds
Trial 3:1.40 seconds
Trial 4:1.32 seconds
Trial 5:1.49 seconds
Trial 6:1.40 seconds
Trial 7:1.45 seconds
Trial 8:1.45 seconds
Trial 9:1.43 seconds
Trial 10:1.37 seconds
Average = 1.411 seconds

Divine Avenger
Trial 1:1.46 seconds
Trial 2:1.59 seconds
Trial 3:1.55 seconds
Trial 4:1.57 seconds
Trial 5:1.52 seconds
Trial 6:1.57 seconds
Trial 7:1.40 seconds
Trial 8:1.46 seconds
Trial 9:1.43 seconds
Trial 10:1.57 seconds
Average = 1.512 seconds

Decided that adding the averages of the two tests would be a good idea because not everyone has super computers.Nor does everyone have lagtastic computers,but somewhere in between.

Gran Faust:Average of both tests:
1.3615 seconds
Divine Avenger:Average of both tests:
1.436 seconds
So,in conclusion; for now,for the average player,using an average computer.Gran Faust goes 0.0745 seconds faster than the Divine Avenger.If you like percentages,Gran Faust on average swings 7.45% faster than the Divine Avenger.

(A suggestion was made to do swings per minute,so because I was not certain on weather it was combos per minute for weapon speed,or if it was a single swing,I did tests for both)

TEST 2.0;GOOD GAMING SYSTEM.
What was tested:The number of combos that could be completed in one minute.
Testing swings per minute:Combo swings and Single swings.Each with 5 trials (Shield Canceling was not used)

Gran Faust:Combos
trial 1:59 swings,29 combos
trial 2:60 swings,30 combos
trial 3:59 swings,29 combos
trial 4:60 swings,30 combos
trial 5:59 swings,29 combos

Average:59.4 swings,29.4 combos a minute
Single:
trial 1:47 single swings
trial 2:46 single swings
trial 3:47 single swings
trial 4:48 single swings
trial 5:48 single swings
Average:47.2 single swings a minute

Divine Avenger:Combo
Trail 1:58 swings,29 combos
Trial 2:58 swings,29 combos
Trial 3:58 swings,29 combos
Trial 4:59 swings,29 combos
Trial 5:58 swings,29 combos
Average:58.2 swings,29 combos a minute

TEST 2.1
What was tested:The number of single swings that could be done in one minute.
Trial 1:45 swings
Trial 2:46 swings
Trial 3:46 swings
Trial 4:43 swings
Trial 5:45 swings
Average:45 single swings a minute
Combo difference:1.2 swings per second
Single swing difference:2.2 single swings per second

Anyone with the math decimal/fraction/percentage wise?

(Unfortunately,I was unable to do the last two tests on my crappy computer to get a better average)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So on my first test I concluded that the Average swing time for an average computer was a 7.45% difference,but when I look on the second test,the percentage seems smaller,but on the third test it seems the percentage is a lot more than 7 percent.

What do you think?

Tue, 11/15/2011 - 15:20

Antistone

Interpretation

What are you using to measure times? I have a hard time believing that whatever method you are using is accurate down to hundredths of a second. Notice on your first test, the difference between the highest and lowest trials on a single weapon is greater than the average difference between weapons! That doesn't really tell us anything except that your data is noisy.

When you did a full minute of combos, your GF and DA seem to differ more consistently--but only by about 1 swing. That's suggestive, but it's not a big enough difference to be confident that it's a real difference and not just measurement inaccuracies.

By doing a bunch of small trials, any inaccuracies are multiplied. If you want to know how thick an average piece of paper is, you don't measure the thickness of 500 sheets one at a time and average them, you measure the thickness of a single stack of 500 and then divide.

So instead of doing 5 trials of 1 minute each, do a single trial that lasts for 5 minutes (with each weapon). If the difference you're seeing is real, that should result in swing counts that differ by 5-6 instead of just by 1, so we could be more confident it's a real effect and not just because the timer ran out while you were in the middle of a swing or something.

And do combos, not single swings. For combos, you can just button mash. Single swings are dependent upon your personal judgement of when to push the attack button in order to attack as fast as possible without turning it into a combo, and that can't possibly improve your accuracy.

Tue, 11/15/2011 - 15:56

Ekita

Thank you Antistone

@ Antistone
Thank you for the advice,I have tested the two swords like you said.An I am currently using the stopwatch on my phone,it can track up to hundredths of a second.
Here are the results:
TEST 3:COMBO SWINGS IN 5 MINUTES
Combo Swings in 5 minutes

Gran Faust:294

Divine Avenger:288

Difference = 6 swings in 5 minutes
Difference per minute:1.2 swings

Tue, 11/15/2011 - 16:46

Antistone

The stop watch may track

The stop watch may track hundredths of a second, but there's a human being pushing a button to tell it when to start and stop. I'm pretty sure you are not reliably pushing the button within 0.01 seconds of when your attacks start or stop. (Try this: start the stopwatch, and then try to stop it at exactly 5.00 seconds. Do it several times. How close are you? All of your times have at least that much uncertainty, and probably more.)

Anyway, based on your data, it appears that the Gran Faust is roughly 2% faster than the Divine Avenger. (Note: "Attack Speed Increased: Low" is around 4%)

Attack Speed Bars:
Divine Avenger shows ~2 segments full
Gran Faust shows ~4.5 segments full
The maximum bar that can be displayed is ~9 segments

So if the bars on these weapons are accurate, that means that each segment represents about 0.5 swings/min, with a completely empty bar representing ~57 swings/min and a completely full bar representing ~61 swings/min. That, in turn, would mean that the difference between a completely empty speed bar and a completely full speed bar is about 7%.

A Flourish or Snarble Barb has a bit over 5 segments on its attack speed gauge, so if it's on the same scale, it should get around 59 hits/min. A Cutter has about 8 segments, so it should be around 60.5 hits/min. I suppose I'd have to check to be 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure you'll find they're substantially faster than that.

The speed bar could be based on combos per minute instead of swings...but the cutter's got a really long combo, so in that case it should probably have the smallest speed bar, instead of the largest.

Perhaps, one might argue, the speed bar is only a meaningful comparison between weapons with the same attack pattern. But...nearly all weapons with the same attack pattern have identical speed bars. In fact, I believe the Faust and Gran Faust are the only swords in the *entire game* that have speed bars that are different from other swords with the same attack pattern. So that would mean the bars are meaningless, whether they're lies or not; if the bars only mean anything when you compare two weapons with exactly the same bars, they don't tell you anything.

Another consideration: if the scale of attack speed is really as tiny as this comparison would suggest, why don't attack speed UVs or armors result in changes to the bar length? Defense/resistance UVs on armors change the bar lengths. And according to the above calculations, IAS medium is roughly the size of the entire attack speed bar, so it would be really obvious if the bars were being adjusted.

My conclusion: the attack speed bar is most likely a complete fabrication with no direct relationship to any game mechanical variable. I'm not holding my breath for damage bars, either.

I still hold out some hope that defense/resistance bars might be truth, based on the fact that the UI adds and averages them as if they were comparable, and the fact that Tantarian's fire resistance tests appear to be consistent with the theory that equal-length fire resist bars from different sources do the same amount. But I need more data to confirm.

Tue, 11/15/2011 - 21:03

Ekita

Hmm

I do believe that the speed/damage/resist/damage bars are a bit vague.Mainly because we don't have numbers to calculate any of the stats,we have near worthless bars.

The only reason I really bring Faust/Gran Faust up is because the bars are different,that with the fact that if the bars are a mistake on the developers part that it would have been patched long,long ago.

Perhaps the bars simply never adjust,the real problem is that we don't know.The game doesn't use numbers like "World of Warcraft".Where in World of Warcraft it is basic fact the 1 strength point = 2 attack power,8% hit melee hit is required to never miss a monster 3 levels higher than you,and that 1 stamina = 10 health.
In Spiral Knights we have to guess on everything.Like what is 186 damage with a Gran Faust on a slime equal to in pvp when you are hitting a guy using the Vog set,or how much health does Vanaduke have?

The stat system on this game as exceptionally vague and it gives no insight to what the stats mean other than "You have more of this stat".

I tested Gran Faust because the game stated that there was a difference.I looked at it and questioned it,and did several unofficial tests to try and see the difference.I concluded to myself that I could see a very small difference between the two swords.So I decided to fully test it,and found results.Although with our current knowledge the information the game provides may be false,who knows what stats will look like in the future?

Perhaps we need to test every weapon available in game in order to see everything clearly.

I also did check my accuracy,I reduced the time from 5 minutes to 10 seconds to save time.
Trial 1: 9:96 (.04 seconds difference)
Trial 2:19.99 (.01 seconds difference)
Trial 3:30.00 (no difference)
(I honestly don't do these tests to troll anyone,I only do them to try and prove my point.I am not saying that your argument is wrong,I am simply stating data as I see it)

I would want this test to become a "Scientific theory" In Spiral Knights.We do not have the data,yet,to make it "Scientific Law",but though the repetition of these tests we could finally find the true,tested,answer.

Actually,I would like to see others do these tests,to see if they get near results.

Wed, 11/16/2011 - 08:19

Extribble

A suggestion...

I don't want to bash on your numbers, I just have a suggestion...

I think your times would be more accurate if you're focused on just clocking the time between swings rather than spam attacking with one hand and using the stopwatch on the other. Consider taking a short 1-2 minute video of the test, blowing the volume up, and using the sound of the attack as the trigger to start/stop the timer while watching it after recording. Later today if I remember, I'll join you on testing the GF's attack speed this way. Two people with the same test results is more convincing than 1 ;)
One issue I'd have with this is that my DA has an ASI low, so I'd only be able to test the GF's speed independently. I'll be testing it without any ASI at all, since i assume that's how you did it.

Only saying this because at least to me, it's harder to do 2 things at once than it is to do one thing at a time lol :P

Note: I'll edit this post with my numbers when I get them :D

EDIT: Forgot to ask, what do you define as the attack combo period? From the start of the first attack animation to the end of the second? Need to know this so I can get the correct range of numbers... Haven't done much of this kind of testing, so I'm not sure what the standard is :3

Wed, 11/16/2011 - 14:28

Ekita

Hmm,alright

Good good,more people to test this with,and accurate answers are always better.

Not sure if I can do the tests today as I will be out for a bit,and will not be able to return until tomorrow with completely giving up a run today.

What I did on the first test was to combo it and try to stop right when the second slash made it's arc,but the animation goes on for a little bit where you are stalled.However,seeing as the numbers may be "noisy" you may want to go and time it for the full animation.

For the other tests I just combo'ed until time ran out "Which weather you are doing 5 minutes or one minute,it should be around the same,but 5 minutes did clear a bit more things up.

As for the ASI problem,perhaps I will have to use one piece of my Fallen set and calculate the times.However,if you have Crown of the Fallen or Armor of the Fallen, equiping this with Gran Faust should make it equal to ASI low.Or perhaps the swift strike buckler,but I can;t quite remember how fast it makes your weapon strike.

I tested this with no change in ASI,I was using Mad bomber Mask,Skolver coat,and the Barbarous thorn shield.

The Fallen set was my first set of five star gear, which it was before I got my skolver coat and bomber set that I felt I saw the most difference by unofficial observation.

Actually, unless other tests have been done for anything speed wise,we should also see how much faster low,medium,high,Very high,Ultra,and Maximum are,but I currently do not have the funds for a full Vog set yet.

Get your friends,the more tests the better. :)

Wed, 11/16/2011 - 16:39

Antistone

The wiki says about 4% per

The wiki says about 4% per rank of attack speed, and links to this thread of test results as a source.

Swiftstrike Bucklet is ASI high. To get ASI low for a sword, I believe you need Armor or Crown of the Fallen (5*), a 4* Quick Strike trinket, or a UV.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 13:45

#10

Ekita

Thanks

Thanks Antistone

I'll try my best to get on asap,but my brother is using the gaming computer at the moment.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 17:17

#11

Extribble

DA w/ASI Low: 12 good, non

I'm measuring these combos from the start of the first attack animation, to the end of the second (when the sword goes back to non-attacking position).

My DA w/ASI Low: 12 good, non spazzed animations timed
1.669
1.702
1.683
1.751
1.672
1.698
1.721
1.714
1.745
1.631
1.653
1.781

From this, I'd say the DA w/ASI low averages out to 1.7sec for a full combo.

Your GF w/ASI Low (caught only a few combos for some reason, probably Fraps just being stupid)
1.685
1.721
1.698
1.675
1.752

Looks to be similar, around the 1.7 of the DA.

My GF w/out ASI will be up soon...

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 17:50

#12

Ekita

GF,ASI low (to compare to ex's DA)

It appears after 5 minutes Gran Faust struck 296 times
which would make it 59.2 strikes a minute.

on that other test.

1.59
1.60
1.62
1.59
1.62
1.62

it's only 6 results,unlike your 12,but GF seems to average to 1.60 seconds per combo with ASI low

Then again I am using Hypercam,and not fraps,timing might be different.
im testing DA without a UV,did you ever get it where it made you go into a complete circle before striking?

1.79
1.76
1.80
1.77
1.76
1.83
Average=1.785,DA with no UV

Using your average,I was able to take out the ASI low UV from your sword,and I got an average of 1.769.

Thu, 11/17/2011 - 20:38

#13

Extribble

I thought I had posted this

I thought I had posted this earlier, but apparently I must have hit the wrong button since I'm not seeing it...

Here are the (re-done) numbers for GF w/out ASI
1.821
1.764
1.772
1.791
1.839
1.844
1.801
1.752
1.834

Average: 1.796
When tested the first time, I had an average of 1.789 I believe? I don't remember, doesn't matter since this recalculation is pretty darn close.

My take on the numbers:
IMHO the times don't differ enough to say that it isn't human error that differentiates the two. Comparing my GF to your DA without ASI, it shows a slight advantage towards the DA, yet with low UV's, the GF shows a slight advantage. All this proves to me is that A)The difference in attack speed is so miniscule that it is negligible, or B) The attack speeds are identical and human error in calculation and/or perfect clicking accounts for the differences in times.

I'd have to vote to keep the wiki page as is, since there is not a 100% clear difference in attack speeds, and (at least to me) it really wouldn't make sense as a developer to make one of the two 0.05-0.1 seconds faster than the other to complete a combo to be honest :/

EDIT: Regarding your calculation of the actual average from my data, I was eyeballing it since I was in a rush. The numbers seemed to hover around that 1.7 mark, so I just said it was that. Sorry if it came across as me stating that it was EXACTLY 1.7 :S

Fri, 11/18/2011 - 15:17

#14

Ekita

well then

Since by test that GF and DA are the same speed.Nothing realy needs to be changed.

However id put into the wiki that tests have been done.

To bug report or not to bug report,because this speed thing bothers me to no end,and besides GF needs a buff to compare to DA's usefulness anyway.
I do wonder if Hypercam (which is what I was using) to you using Fraps made a difference,and it could be a possible variable.However unlikely it is,I might just do another test for Gran Faust with no speed increase.Post here and see how it turns out just so I can have a clear answer.

To the edit:
I knew you were eyeballing it,so I just did the recalculation to get a more precise answer.

EDIT:
Here are my GF with no speed increase.
1.71
1.76
1.72
1.76
1.73
1.68
Average:1.72

Now,I am not trying to fight for my hypothesis.I just had to do it to remove any variable from Hypercam VS Fraps,the numbers are different from each other by only hundredths of a seconds,which may be discarded. However, I won't be able to un-see the speed difference when I play.

I kindly ask for a link to this thread on the wiki. Just so that people can look at the information as they please. If some believe that GF is indeed faster from their own observation then let them believe it.If people want to use this information to disprove that belief then I am quite fine with it.However,if it is true that the swords are the same speed, then let it be accessible for someone to at lest send a bug report,from a bug that has been in the game since launch.

Thank you gentlemen for your time.I'll see you around.

Wed, 12/21/2011 - 12:54

#15

Toytek

I Believe The speed difference.

With DA no matter what attack with it you use, you can never get cursed, poisoned, etc. As for GF, eventually you will get cursed. It happens faster with a charged attack. So if you prefer GF and are willing to get cursed because of 7.45% faster speed, go ahead. I am sticking with my avenger.

Wed, 12/21/2011 - 13:49

#16

Extribble

Hai threadnecro :D

Check thread dates before you post. The testing has been completed for a while and unless you had new data, there's no need to resurrect the thread ;)

On what you said, based on our calculations (Ekita and I), the difference was roughly 4% if any at all if you consider the fact we had to time it by hand. Also, the GF only curses you on the charge attack, so that has no relevancy to an explanation for an attack speed increase.

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Gran Faust Speed.