Spiral Knights - Need a piercing gun

Need a piercing gun

30 replies [Last post]

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 13:35

Alynn

I want a piercing gun as a sidearm for my swordsman.
I have 3 choices:

Callahan - good damage/shot, chance of stun, long range
Blitz Needle - this is a charge only FSC gun, very good dmg, but leaves you very vulnerable during firing and reloading
Plague Needle - havnt really seen this much but is the poison worth it?

I have no gunner equips, no gun trinkets, no anything related to guns. I run alot of FSC but also run other stuff from time to time.

Please help me choose a gun for me and plz include your reasons.

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 13:44

Godzy

*~*

Blitz is the "norm" for FSC
Plague's poison helps when it connects with other hits
So either of those but mainly Blitz for its max damage potential

I would add Argent Peacemaker but its not in your choices....

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 13:45

Somenubcake

grab a blitz since you run

grab a blitz since you run FSC a lot. (callahan sucks in FSC)

on a side note: why does everyone say the blitz needle is only a FSC gun? once you learned how to use it, it's arguably the best piercing gun (yep, i prefer it over my callahan in all stata. and i rarely get hit when i'm using my blitz)

@ Godzy: the devs are thinking of changing the AP to pure elemental btw

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 13:50

Alynn

hmm...........

@ somenubcake

i said Blitz is a charge only FSC gun. Meaning you only use the charge attack
and why does callahan suck in FSC?

@Godzy

Is the debuff from poison worth the damage reduction when in a party?
And also, I dont like AP. I want a pure piercing gun.

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 13:54

Godzy

*~*

@Somenubcake

I know, with damage bonus on undead helps on most of FSC floors except Vana itself
but since its a piercing gun he wants and its going to be changed sometime, i didn't bother talking about it

@Alynn
If your in a decent party, by decent, 3 other players who got the correct gears and know what they are doing,
Plague needles poison makes Vana hella fast

and yea, i figured you wanted piercing overall and not dual damage type

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 14:07

Alynn

hey....

Im thinking that with the Blitz Needle, you have to charge, shoot, reload to do.......like 1700dmg on vana? (cause like half of your shots get blocked by the vana fireballs) But with the Callahan, I can shoot about 4 shots while the Blitz charge, shoot and reload. Wouldnt this give me about the same dmg without the danger of getting hit while shooting and reloading? also Callahan stuns

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 14:11

Godzy

*~*

There are lots of threads i can show you to prove blitz/plagues effectiveness but this one is the "fastest"

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/29474

Btw ignore all the rage/flame/trashtalking in the thread and video,
just focus on the effectiveness of the technique of "blitz/plague on vana"

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 14:21

Alynn

i seen that
but im not going to get that kind of teamwork and is Blitz as good as the callahan outside vana/FSC? like for shooting down silkwings, gremlin menders, etc.

I have seen TONS of Blitz videos and its ALL in FSC. so im getting ALOT of biased opinion/info

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 15:00

Godzy

*~*

For that, someone else can answer that for you, I can direct you to another thread that mite get you better results

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/13420?page=5

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 15:25

Juances

some people say that

Callahan stuns. Stun is bugged. Makes Vana unpredictable.

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 17:04

#10

Somenubcake

@Alynn: Blitz is a charge

@Alynn: Blitz is a charge only FSC gun <-- the presence of FSC makes me think that u meant "blitz is a charge only gun, mainly for fsc"

callahan doesn't do enough dps in fsc to be worth using. it'll take u a long time just to kill a trojan (much much longer than you would've liked). the damage isn't all that great either. it does a bit more damage on a wolver than the damage done by an expanded polaris shot on a zombie; and it doesn't fire fast either. in addition, the blitz can hit through the force field barrier (and vana's fireballs); pretty sure the callahan can't do the same thing.

here's a video on blitz needle vs T3 wolvers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krJtNczQ5zU

@Godzy: yea it would help. but i think we gotta wait to see how much damage it actually does when u compare it with other elemental guns.

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 17:52

#11

Alynn

ya.....

see how the guys in the demo uses nothing but charge attacks on him Blitz? is the normal attack really THAT bad? and also, is that the normal charge time (at lvl10) or is he wearing CTR trinkets?

Edit:
nvm the normal attack isnt that bad he just likes the charge alot more

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 17:53

#12

Somenubcake

normal charge time is

normal charge time is 2.6seconds (at level 1, no UV). a level10 blitz's charge time is 2.2seconds. normal attack does like 70-90 damage * 6 hits while charge does around 150 each * 15 hits. and because you'll have to stand still to fire any bursts (charged or not), it's much safer and much more efficient to fire only charge shots

Sun, 12/04/2011 - 17:55

#13

Alynn

huh..

guess ima get myself a blitz.....or plague......

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 04:43

#14

Fradow

@Godzy you said "Plague

@Godzy you said "Plague needles poison makes Vana hella fast". It's plain wrong. Having 3 Blitz and 1 Plague makes it just a LITTLE faster if you are pro and can keep him poisonned and attack all the time. If you are not, or if you have only 2 Blitz and 1 Plague, Blitz is better (3 Blitz will outperform 2 Blitz + 1 Plague on ideal situation). Really, except for pro speedrun, i can't think about a good reason to get a Plague Needle. Blitz will out-dps it.

As for Callahan, it has a bad dps. I mean BAD. In FSC, where you have enough time to use Blitz charge while being safe enough, Blitz charge will vastly out-dps Callahan. Do the math : you said 4 Callahan shots for a Blitz Charge, and Blitz is 1700 damage. I'm pretty sure 4 Callahan shots wouldn't even reach 1000 damage. You can also test Trojans with Callahan and Blitz. You'll quickly see the difference.

In the end : Blitz Needle all the way!

As for Blitz Needle normal attack, it's not that bad, but the charge is simply better, meaning it will out-dps normal attack and knockdown most monsters (the normal attack doesn't knockdown).

And Blitz can be used outside of FSC. If you can handle it, that is. Callahan is easier to use outside of FSC tho.

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 08:50

#15

Godzy

*~*

@Fradow

Either you did not read what i was referring to Alynn when i was replying towards his/her question
or
Denying Plagues Needles speedkilling of Vana fast to make me look wrong while proving i am right at the sametime when it comes paired with 2-3 Blitz Needles in a party

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 10:29

#16

Fradow

I stand by what I said.

I stand by what I said. Except if you can prove it, having a Plague needle doesn't makes Vana "hella fast", comparing to using Blitz only (of course, if you compare to Antigua/Polaris, it IS going to be a lot faster).

I did not deny it makes Vana faster. I deny it makes it a LOT faster. What makes it fast is a lot of Needle and a coordinated team. And from the calculation I remember (if someone can find the actual calculations ...), 2 Blitz + 1 Plague have lower dps than 3 Blitz.

To finish my argumentation, I assume that someone coming here to ask isn't a pro doing some speedruns. She/He is probably beginning FSC, and is probably not going to be always in a full Needle party. Even then, someone may already have a Plague Needle. Having 2 Plague Needle in a party certainly lower the dps.

All those reasons makes me advise against Plague Needle.

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 16:07

#17

Slayzz

If you want a piercing gun

If you want a piercing gun for both PvP and PvE, get Callahan. If you want one for PvE only, get blitz needle. Only useful place for plague needle probably is JK, but Biohazard is more for that. In other words; don't waste your time/CE with plague needle.

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 17:15

#18

Alynn

so...

Those that have used a callahan, hows the damage and feel of the gun?
and one of the above post said that the stun is bugged and can make vana unpredictable. How unpredictable?

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 17:23

#19

Somenubcake

Slayzz +1 about callahan in

Slayzz +1 about callahan in PvP. really good gun there for a gunslinger

@Alynn: will check the numbers for u when i get on SK tonight. it's not very impressive for PvE. i do feel quite slow using it (because of stand and shoot thing). and the stun unpredictable thing is because you may not get the timing right.

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 17:41

#20

Alynn

bugged?

why would stun throw the timing off? and why is it bugged?

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 17:48

#21

Somenubcake

the animation of the attack

the animation of the attack isn't really slower. but the start of the attack is delayed when it's stunned. so if it actually does its attack 2seconds after that red indicator appear on the floor, it would be 3-5seconds after the indicator appear when it's stunned. the problem is we are used to the normal delay time but not the stunned delay time.....

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 17:55

#22

Alynn

?????

is that for Callahan stun ONLY or all stuns? I never noticed any delay with stun vials/weps

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 17:57

#23

Nicoya-Kitty

What I've heard (never tried

What I've heard (never tried stunning vana myself) is that if he gets stunned while in the attack animation, the attack will instantly complete. So if you're in front of him and hit him with a Callahan shot you get insta-mace.

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 18:19

#24

Alynn

woah

ima try that next time

Mon, 12/05/2011 - 21:18

#25

Somenubcake

at d20: callahan against

at d20:

callahan against gremlin: 105damage
umbra driver against lumber: 89damage (umbra does the same amount of damage as a polaris expanded shot)

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 08:02

#26

Godzy

@Fradow

[I stand by what I said. Except if you can prove it, having a Plague needle doesn't makes Vana "hella fast", comparing to using Blitz only (of course, if you compare to Antigua/Polaris, it IS going to be a lot faster).]

I wouldn't bother proving what is already a known fact

[I did not deny it makes Vana faster. I deny it makes it a LOT faster.]

I /facepalm the redundancy of this statement

[What makes it fast is a lot of Needle and a coordinated team. And from the calculation I remember (if someone can find the actual calculations ...), 2 Blitz + 1 Plague have lower dps than 3 Blitz.]

Alright then, in MY opinion, having a Plague Needle + Blitzes is faster for me, that's how i do FSC and it works for ME

[To finish my argumentation, I assume that someone coming here to ask isn't a pro doing some speedruns. She/He is probably beginning FSC, and is probably not going to be always in a full Needle party. Even then, someone may already have a Plague Needle. Having 2 Plague Needle in a party certainly lower the dps.]

Read the first post of the topic starter and then tell me why you are wrong in this statement of yours

[All those reasons makes me advise against Plague Needle.]

Just to clarify, incase you cannot read, understand, or comprehend, having a Plague needle, not 2 or 3, JUST 1, helps in killing Vana FAST on MY FSC Runs, understand? in MY point of view and in MY gameplay dives

But hey, that's just MY OPINION

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 16:16

#27

Fradow

The thing is I was not

EDIT : Real numbers below, disregard numbers on this post.

The thing is I was not stating OPINION but maths. Found some numbers from an old thread (if you have some up-to-date numbers, please share, so that i can redo the math accordingly) :
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/19830

From what Abathur (post 9) stated, Plague Needle deals 37% less damage than Blitz Needle. Let's do some maths assuming Vanaduke is always poisonned (which goes in favor of Plague since he is probably not always poisonned), and a Blitz Needle is 2000 damage (taken for convenience, i don't remember the exact number), so Plague Needle would be at 1260 (2000 - 2000*0.37).

For 3 Needle users :
- A charge from 3 Blitz users would be 2000*3 = 6000 damage. Easy to calculate
- A charge from 2 Blitz + 1 Plague would be, with poison : (2000*2 + 1260) * 1.1 = 5786. That's what I stated earlier : in this case, you'd better go with Blitz

For 4 Needle users :
- A charge from 4 Blitz users would be 2000*4 = 8000 damage. Again, easy
- A charge from 3 Blitz + 1 Plague would be, with poison : (2000*3 + 1260) * 1.1 = 7986. Contrary to what I stated earlier, it doesn't even equal 4 Blitz users (tho the margin is negligible).

So, as far as I know, there is no way that a team goes faster with a Plague. Except if it avoids you to die due to reduced damage thanks to poison.

So your 'known fact" that Plague Needle is ... well ... not that known. Unless you can provide some numbers that prove it, or show me what i did wrong.

I read again the first topic : it's stated that he often do FSC. Not that he is doing speedruns. I know some people in 4* who don't have a clue and often do FSC. When someone ask a question like this, yes, I assume he is not a pro.

Edit : in fact, i'll try to go in FSC later with a Plague Needle user I know to have the real numbers, unless someone provide them before, and update the maths by tomorrow. I already know a Blitz Needle bullet do 143 damage unpoisonned, i'll need the number with poison, and i'll also need the Plague Needle damage per bullet with poison (without poison would be cool to test some theory, but not needed with the assumptions I gave).

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 09:08

#28

Godzy

*~*

@Fradow

I'll make my post short and simple

Refer to my first post which agrees to what everyone is saying in the first place about getting Blitz

What you did wrong is take your time to type all of that information, beneficial or not, and knowing i actually recommended Blitz BUT i usually prefer having 1 Plague Needler with me to poison Vana at all times which makes my runs faster for me

Only a few, by few i mean RARE, and by rare, sum friends of mine use a Plague Needle to poison+damage Vana at the sametime disregarding damage calculations and etc

So doing alot of FSC SUCCESSFULLY isn't considered "pro"?
i just died a little inside

There are many ways to define FSC Runs but i'm too lazy to explain but pro or not, I assume he is a pro

EDIT: I would actually appreciate that damage info if you acquire it, i do not have time to at the moment to play but it should be close if not nearly the same for you as it does to my runs with a Plague Needle+Blitzes

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 09:23

#29

Fradow

Then I guess we agree. As for

Then I guess we agree.

As for considering doing a lot of FSC successfully "pro", well, yesterday, a guy on my friendlist got me to invite him. I assume it was not his first successful FSC run since he knew quite a bit, but he was all 4* and get carried hard. I'm pretty sure it's not an isolated case. I guess it depends from your point of view.

I'll stil acquire data to have some concrete numbers for upcoming questions (because it's far from being the first subjet on that matter and it will not be the last, but i couldn't find good numbers for Vanaduke specifically).

Tue, 12/06/2011 - 16:15

#30

Fradow

Real numbers !

I did this run with a guildmate who has Plague Needle (thanks, Ankokuflare!) and now i have the numbers, in damage per bullet :
On Vanaduke :
- Blitz : 143 without poison 168 with poison, charge = 2145 / 2520
- Plague : 85 without poison, 100 with poison, charge = 1275 / 1500

On a zombie, D25 :
- Blitz : 115 without poison, 141 with poison
- Plague : 72 without poison, 82 with poison

So here are the calculation, assuming Vanaduke is always poisonned (which is, in practice, not the case except perhaps in "pro" run where they can keep attacking all the time)
- 4 Blitz = 2145*4 = 8580
- 3 Blitz + 1 Plague = 2520*3 + 1500 = 9060
Using Plague clearly win if you are on a full Needle user group. That's the case in speedrun groups, but much less in random/ less experienced groups, where you often use Shivermist.

- 3 Blitz = 2145*3 = 6435
- 2 Blitz + 1 Plague = 2520*2 + 1500 = 6540
It's better for Plague, because the poison seems to be a little more than 10% bonus damage. The margin is very low, the real advantage here is to lower Vanaduke mace damage. But since you are probably not going to have poison all the time, Blitz will probably win in dps, in practice (yeah that's redundant, voluntarily).

- 2 Blitz = 2145*2 = 4290
- 1 Blitz + 1 Plague = 4020
When you have 2 or less Needle, no reason to take a Plague for dps.

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