Spiral Knights - Trinkets: Damage Bonus vs. Monster

Trinkets: Damage Bonus vs. Monster

6 replies [Last post]

Wed, 01/18/2012 - 18:37

Antistone

There seems to be a general consensus that both armor and trinkets with bonuses to specific weapon types are the best available options. I, for one, am saddened to see players increasingly locked-in to a single weapon type and unable to diversify. I am also sad that there are very few trinket options available to low-level players.

I propose that trinkets be added to the game that provide a damage bonus against a single monster class (for example, "damage bonus vs. gremlins"), according to the following power schedule:

2 stars: low damage
3 stars: medium damage
4 stars: high damage
5 stars: very high damage

Very high might seem like a lot, but keep in mind that damage bonus is capped at 6 ranks, so you can't actually benefit from two very high bonuses against the same monster class. I feel this power schedule provides several interesting and viable options for your trinket slots:

Very high vs. 2 monsters. Most levels include at least 2 classes of monster. This gives you the same damage bonus as two weapon trinkets, with the advantage of working with all your equipped weapons, but the downsides that you need to acquire 6 trinkets to cover all levels (instead of only 2 for your preferred weapon type) and that you'll occasionally run into a monster from a class that's not covered.
2x High vs. monster. Two 4* trinkets gives you max damage against one monster class, probably for roughly the same cost as a single 5* trinket. You're still 2 damage ranks ahead of the weapon specialist against one monster class, but you will routinely run into monsters you don't have a bonus against.
Very high vs. monster + Some other trinket. One monster trinket + one weapon trinket will still give you max damage when using that weapon against that monster. You could also use an ASI, CTR, or defensive trinket to give you some extra utility while still maintaining a substantial damage bonus against the level's primary monster type.

I see the following advantages to this proposal:

More viable loadouts for players with mixed weapon types.
Much easier to get max damage bonuses without relying on armor, making armors without damage bonuses more viable.
Players can specialize in different monsters, and thus divide up responsibilities during large fights.
Tier 2 players gain access to viable offensive trinkets.
Damage vs. monster class is an ability that is already supported in the game engine, so the additional work required to implement should be minimal.
Six trinkets in the complete set gives players more to do, and more reason to spend money on the game.

I also see some possible downsides:

Power creep
Larger gap between gear specialized for PvP and gear specialized for clockworks

As far as how players acquire these new trinkets, several approaches are possible, but the most obvious one would be to add them to Brinks' inventory--he already sells 2*-5* trinkets in exchange for tokens that are already associated with particular monster types (and these trinkets clearly aren't good for PvP, so the Krogmo machine doesn't fit). However, there's currently not much players can do to acquire sparks faster--players can't acquire a wide variety of trinkets unless they can somehow pay for them. So we'd also need more ways to grind sparks. I would suggest:

Brinks begins selling sparks in exchange for boss tokens.
Sparks visible behind energy gates, so players can "buy" them in limited quantities.
Higher drop rates for sparks at the end of danger rooms.
New purchasable energy pack that includes sparks.

Or you could have some completely different method of acquiring them. Heck, maybe you just purchase recipes from Basil and craft them like all the other gear in the game.

Thoughts?

Thu, 01/19/2012 - 04:34

Darkbrady

Can't agree with VH trinkies,

Can't agree with VH trinkies, as they would absolutely shatter the point of armour sets designated for family damage.

Right now we have sets that total up to VH bonus against....say, slime.
This gives you VH slime damage for all your weapons and piercing defence.
Use a single one of those trinkies and a Vog Cub and you've got your VH damage /and/ ASi; who the hell needs defence anymore?
(I get that it's a bit of a wonky example, but hopefully you see where I'm goin' with it)

I completely agree with the family damage trinky idea, I actually really do love it, but I think it shuold cap at medium (MAYBE high) like the other trinkies, so as to not just completely remove family damage sets from use as everyone will just use their favourite weapon bonuses, or another set with the same defence type and higher/better overall stats (keeping in mind that the family bonus ones typically have a bit lower defence to balance out having family bonuses).

Put a medium on and you let family sets maximise their damage or....oh god, even just two mediums would let anyone who felt like itj ust pick up VH bonuses on top of their sets...

Maybe there was a reason they don't have them in after all. Unless you were restricted to only one of each type, is all I can think of. It'd be nice to get max bonuses without UVs, but at the cost of making family sets totally useless, it doesn't seem worth it, the sets are there for a reason, and people will always choose their favourite sets over family specific ones if they have generic trinkies that can replace them.

Feel free to add that to the Downsides section, seems like you forgot to consider the current sets.

HOWEVER!

If they only had trinkies for families that don't have current sets (gremlins/construct) then I imagine it wouldn't be a problem, altough I think they should still cap at medium/high, like the sets, VH does seem..a bit too high, to be able to get a full sets worth of bonuses within one trinky and still have room for more, on top of your favourite set. Too much.

Altough personally I'd rather see sets for the family bonuses, but there's pretty much a reason why gremlins and construx got left out..

Thu, 01/19/2012 - 04:43

Arquebus

It'd probably be safer to

It'd probably be safer to have only Low and Medium, and make them 3* and 4*, respectively. Armor medium bonuses don't start til 5*, and armor low bonuses are usually from sets that start at 3*, so it'd add some nice symmetry to the access you have for the rest of the game and make them a bit easier to acquire than the (better) weapon damage trinkets.

It's very easy to get max damage if you're a sword user against ALL families (Skolver/Snarby set and Barbarous Thorn Shield), so the people who'd want these trinkets would probably be gunners and maybe some bombers. Remember too that you have a limited number of slots in which to put trinkets, so they would be competing with the aforementioned weapon bonus trinkets.

Thu, 01/19/2012 - 14:22

Doomskull

Nice idea. I like the 4* trinkets, high damage bonus.
Other than that, that's all.

Thu, 01/19/2012 - 15:10

Antistone

Back Up

OK, back up a second.

Saying that these trinkets would make people stop using the family armors implies that there are people who CURRENTLY use the family armors. Let's review some of the reasons that people don't actually do that:

Armors for some families don't exist, so that CANNOT be your strategy for every area.
It would be absurdly expensive even if they did exist--you'd be crafting 6 armors (one for each family) instead of just one for your preferred weapon type. Even if the family armors all had good defense types for fighting their family (which is currently NOT true) so that you could say it's more like having Skolver AND Vog AND Snarbolax than having just one, it's still twice as expensive to go the family route.
Even in their niche, they're still not better. If someone gave me a free set of Deadly Virulisk, I'd still wear Skolver in the jelly palace, because there's a bunch of constructs in there, too. I actually have a gun and a bomb that I use a lot, but they're not my MAIN weapons. Having a bonus with your main weapon against all monsters is probably at least as good for almost all players as having the same bonus with all weapons but only against the main monster type of the level. So even if all armor in the game was free, I think you'd still mostly see people using weapon bonuses.
They're useless in Lockdown. Even if you don't do lockdown much, you'll probably do it at least a little at some point. Having SOME bonus in Lockdown is better than having NO bonus.
Family bonuses can only give damage, whereas some people would prefer to have ASI or CTR, which have no family equivalents.

In summary, family bonuses aren't really better than weapon bonuses even in their specific niche, and they're hugely more expensive because you need so many of them. 4* or 5* trinkets with medium vs. family might have been viable if weapon trinkets don't exist, but they do. There are legitimate reasons to use weapon bonuses even if family bonuses are bigger, but the reverse is really NEVER true.

So if you want a typical rational person to give family damage trinkets any serious consideration, one of the following has to be true:

Option 1: Getting ALL SIX family trinkets is comparable in price to getting an equal bonus with weapon trinkets (or cheaper). That puts the medium family trinkets at the 3* level. The details depend on what star level the crafting begins at and how you value mist relative to CE, but a typical 3* item is roughly one sixth the price of the existing weapon trinkets.

Option 2: Family trinkets need to give a bonus that larger than any available weapon trinket bonus. That means they can't cap at medium; they have to go at least up to high.

So any proposal for family damage trinkets that is even worth considering should have a medium bonus at 3* or lower, or it should have the highest bonus as "high" or higher.

I could see an argument to strike the "very high" trinket from my proposal, while keeping the high trinket at 4*. I don't think going all the way to VH at 5* really hurts anything, since you can't stack them effectively. I like them because they encourage people to equip two DIFFERENT trinkets rather than two copies of the same one. But they're not critical to the plan or anything.

I could even see an argument for removing the high trinket, and just leaving medium at 3*. I think they'd go largely unused, but maybe they could carve out some tiny niche where a handful of players would find something useful to do with them. Maybe. That's definitely not what I would argue for, but I wouldn't be insulted if that happened.

But medium at 4* is laughable. That would basically just be a newbie trap.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 05:51

Darkbrady

I did mention that there

I did mention that there aren't sets for all families, and it makes sense why not. There could be a Gremlin set, but the dstrux zones don't come up as often as themed tiers. there could be a construx set, but generally you get them everywhere and they rarely have maps themed across all of them.

They do actually play their roles well, because they give the defensive bonuses as well as the family:bonus. The keep point you're missing is that they give a bonus to ALL weapon types. Walk in with your skolver and you have great sword damage, but no gun or bomb damage. Walk in with a Viru and all your weapons have VH damage off the bat. Add trinkies etc and you're set. As for the construx...carry an elemental weapon, you won't even notice the difference, they still die in like two hits.

If you want ASi/CTR bonuses then family sets are completely irrelevant to you then, use another set and risk a defence loss.

And yes, it's expensive to make a set for every family; but you do make a weapon for every type, and often some utility weapons too; why not sets?
The whole POINT of the game is to not make one "perfect set" but to get a good, base startin' set that's useful everywhere, then actually branch out and start making specialised sets after that in the same fashion that everyone starts with a normal type sword then starts branching out and making specialised weapons.

I do use the family sets; you'd be shocked how useful it is to be able to switch around and keep all your weapons constantly at VH~Max damage (yes, guns, swords, bombs) and keep your defence against all the mobs on the floor high. Costs a lot, but it's somethin' you work at over time. That's why you see so many Wolver set users around the game; because everyone thinks "hey, base set /use forever".

Basically:
1/ If you believe that the family sets are so bad, then they should worry about improving the family sets, rather than bringing in something new to completely replace them. Surely that's a more reasonable solution? Once that's done, then they can focus on some balanced trinkies to supplement the sets, same way they did with regular sets and trinkies.
2/ High~VH trinkies /will/ replace the family sets forever, and after that there's no going back.
3/ Medium as 3*? The specific weapons don't even /get/ a 3*! Why should an equally powerful trinky cap at 3* before the others even start? Yes, I know it's only damage:family, but it's ALL weapon damage:family, whereas the other trinkies are specific to weapon types. However, I do understand what you mean about costs, so that is a trickier question; it could potentially work out that way, if they would introduce trinkies for all the families, instead of ones they just have sets for (i.e, excluding gremlins/construx for the same reason they exclude sets for them) in which case it's back to the same idea as the sets; i.e, 4*.

Fri, 01/20/2012 - 12:09

Mohandar

I like the idea of having 2*

I like the idea of having 2* and 3* family type trinkets for low and medium, obtainable for spark tokens. They would fill the gap between the high end weapon module trinkets, and the low end defense trinkets. Along those lines, I think the token costs of the higher level 5* defense trinkets should be reduced somewhat, given how little they add (the 5* adds something equivalent to a Medium UV).

I'm not a big fan of the 4* and 5* high/very high trinkets, but I guess they could be worked in there. It feels a little powerful for something obtained with spark tokens, but perhaps that's just because I'm looking at it from the perspective that family type trinkets should be intermediate level equipment. If they were implemented, I'd like to see defensive trinkets buffed so that a 5* is equivalent to a Maximum UV (2-5* could be Low, Medium, High, Maximum). Under those circumstances, I would actually swap out a weapon module for a defensive trinket.

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Trinkets: Damage Bonus vs. Monster