Spiral Knights - Expanded Monster Families - additions to the Beast and Slime Families

Expanded Monster Families - additions to the Beast and Slime Families

17 replies [Last post]

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 19:15

Havenihaveaproblem

Much of this game's charm comes from the enemies we fight in the Clockworks. To some extent, each Monster Family requires specific tactics or play styles to beat them, and that adds flavor to each family from the player's perspective. This makes the game fun and interesting to play.

A well-rounded Monster Family is the Gremlin Family. They have a frontline bruiser in the Thwacker, support in the Mender, ranged fire from the Scorcher, fodder in the Knocker, and additional support fire from the Demo. Fighting them feels like battling a well-prepared team. You have to beat your way past the thwackers or knockers to find a way to undo the Mender, all the while being kept on your toes by the scorchers and demos.

I'd like to talk about the Beast Family and the Slime Family, which I feel have a little less "flavor" than the other families. Fighting them lacks the same multi-dimensional feel found with the other families that adds layers to your strategy and makes battling them interesting. Besides trying to enhance variety in the Clockworks, both families are the game's only source of piercing damage outside of spikes, so from a practical standpoint it is useful to add some powah and credibility to piercing damage.

While reading this, I ask you to differentiate between conceptual merit and balance merit. In other words, something might not seem appropriately balanced and ready for immediate in-game implementation, but the concept or direction of the idea is sound. I have also tried to ensure that everything makes thematic sense, but as in every fantasy video game, logical consistency is not as important as how the game plays. It's amazing the things that make no sense in games that players never notice or miss at all (simply a sword that deals more damage than a BOMB or gun is logically inconceivable)!

Beast Family

Perhaps the Beast Family's greatest issue is that it has as much variety as a West Virginian family (or Virginian, for those readers from West Virginia) - it only has TWO members, the Wolvers and the Chromalisks, albeit the Wolvers are divided into Alpha Wolvers and regular Wolvers. When you think of the Beast family, you probably only really consider the Wolvers. The Wolvers are more common and have come to define the family as a highly mobile unit that synergizes with itself through mutual buffs (+Attack Damage). The Chromalisks are perhaps one of the least noticeable creatures in the game. I don't even have a strategy come to mind when I think of them, probably because they are rather harmless and very simple. In fact, the entire Beast family is relatively harmless because they have such long pre-strike indicators.

I'd like to preserve the Wolver as the staple unit of the Beast Family and enhance synergy with this primary unit. To this end, I suggest adding a massive unit to the family with a stun effect to slow surrounding Knights, making it easier for the Wolvers to strike their prey, like a wolf hunting a wounded deer. I suggest adding a support unit that will create terrain obstacles to reduce mobility potential for Knights without compromising Wolver mobility. Finally, I suggest giving some status-related effects to the Chromalisk to give it a little more uniqueness and increase its presence on the battlefield.

Massive Unit

Mammoth, Tortoise, or dragon. I like Mammoth.

Very high health

Special Effect:

It gallops towards knights at a similar pace to a Dreadnaught. As it runs, the ground in a small ring around it is shaken, dealing no damage but stunning any Spiral Knights on it. This is not an attack, so the gallop itself does not deal any damage on contact with a knight; however, status-wise, it functions like a moving Stagger Storm, with a smaller radius and strong stun.

It will have 2 attacks.

First Attack:

It rears on his hind legs/raises its claw and strikes down in front of it, dealing Lumber-like damage and knockback. The pre-strike indicator will be two to three times as long as a Lumber's strike. It's range is on par with a normal Wolver attack. Inflicts heavy stun.

Second Attack:

If a target is in front of it, within about the range of a Zombie's breath attack, the Mammoth/Dragon may unleash a breath attack that deals decent damage and its status effect on any Spiral targets in front of it. Its pre-strike indicator is something around two Lumber's attacks.

Purpose of this unit:
This unit should make it harder to evade the predacious Wolver pack with its stun presence. It will add some oomph to the Beast Family (it is the only family without a massive unit besides Gremlin). Tactics for fighting it include striking from behind to avoid its attacks and keeping your distance while it is charging at you, so you aren't stunned. Afterwards, you might consider staying near the Mammoth to prevent it from activating its gallop again, if that is troubling you. By itself, it should be less threatening than even a lone Lumber. With a mass of Wolvers around you, it, and the Wolvers, become formidable obstacles.

Support Unit

Shaman - small beastial fellow with rabbit-like features, accoutered appropriately in shamanic wear.

Three special abilities, no attacks (like a Gremlin Mender)

Tier 1 - A patch of land shimmers in color for three seconds; afterwards, the land is converted to a trap terrain, such as brambles.

The Shaman may only alter two areas of terrain at a time, but he can cancel the effect of one area and choose a new area whenever his programming dictates it. A neutral status effect Shaman will produce brambles, as an example. Other status effects have different possibilities for their implementation. You might choose a shock-themed Shaman to create brambles with blue sparks weaving along them. You might simply choose to create electricity coursing over a patch of land. You might make it like the lava squares but only a different color. The area of the terrain change increases with tier.

Tier 2 - Increases the attack speed of nearby Wolvers

Similar to the Alpha Wolver empowering nearby Wolvers with damage, the Shaman will increase their attack speed. The attack speed refers only to the duration of the pre-strike indicator, and it should reduce it by 30-40%.

Tier 3 - Creates a ring of wards around the Shaman

A thin, traversable ring surrounds the Shaman, consisting of trap terrain. A Knight either needs range or must shield his way through the trap terrain to harm the Shaman. The Shaman will not move inside the ring but will continue to use his abilities. The width of the rings circumference should be one tile thick, like a tile of fire from FSC. The diameter of the protective circle is around the same length as the healing circle summoned by the Gremlin Menders. If a Knight does not activate his shield on contact, the wards deal damage and inflict the status corresponding to the Shaman.

All of the Shaman's spells are immediately nullified when the Shaman is killed.

Purpose of the unit:

The Shaman provides a unique support unit to the Beast family, conforming to the Beast Family's emphasis on mobility and its pack of Wolvers. The Shaman cuts down on the amount of traversible terrain for the Knight without hindering its allies. The relentless nature of the Wolvers becomes even more difficult to deal with. For a Spiral Knight, the Shaman could become tantamount to a Gremlin Mender in kill priority.

Chromalisk changes

Maintain Chromalisk's camouflage up until it begins its attack animation. Its pre-strike indicator will still display, but the Chromalisk will remain camouflaged until its tongue or goo leave its mouth. Increase its movement speed by 50%. Finally, grant the Chromalisk the ability to "don" whatever status effect you strike it with. If you hit it with fire, it suffers the status effect and afterwards becomes fire-themed, becoming immune to that effect and granting its attacks the same status effect. Give the Chromalisk Max! resistance to all status effects.

New Purpose of the Chromalisk:

The Chromalisk is first and foremost an ambush unit. He adds that element of surprise, he is the uncalculated-for twist in your plans. Secondly, he requires care when firing your status effects around. If you have a staple form of CC, you may find it suddenly unreliable as the Chromalisk adapts to it. I actually considered that every time the Chromalisk was knocked onto its back, it would change its resistance type to the weapon that dealt the damage, unless it were normal damage.

Beast Family's New Functionality

Most of the damage from the Beast Family will still stem from its Wolver pack. Only now, there are a few support struts you might consider knocking down before attempting to rout the pack. The pack itself is more deadly than ever, with powerful demobilizing abilities like terrain altercations, quicker attacks, and AoE stuns from its massive unit. The family presents a unique tactical choice for the player, as eliminating its core unit, the Wolver, is best done with a sword or perhaps a bomb, but its troublesome support units might be more accessible via the range of a gun for staying outside of the Mammoth's stun or shooting over the protecting wards of the Shaman. A gunslinger's dilemma, conversely, is trying to stay alive long enough to kill the supporting units while he is being hunted by empowered, ferocious Wolvers.

Status effects will have to be chosen carefully when Chromalisks are around in large numbers, and, above all, players will need to focus on intelligent use of the terrain to not get caught in the lion's den - or Wolver's den, as it were.

Slime Family

The Slime Family is already in a pretty good state. It has a much healthier number of units than the Beast Family to add variety. It's still a second world country, though, and could use some enrichment. It has no easy answer to being kited. These monsters aren't that threatening unless there are a large number of turrets, a giant slime, or some other race around. I suggest adding one ranged unit to the family that will keep up with its aggressive cubic brothers and sort of encompass both the role of support fire and support unit.

Ever notice that the Status-Slimes like Oilers and Ice Cubes have trouble powering themselves up without help from ANOTHER family? While it's cool to see cross-family synergy, the Slime Family really is too regal to allow itself to be subordinated to other races!

Support-Ranged-General-Everything-Fire unit

Slime Warlock - This is a cute little slime blob with an equally sized pointy wizard hat on top of its spherical surface.

Tier 1 - Fires ranged, status effect orbicular missiles

These orbs will, upon contact with a status-themed slime, impart that status effect onto it if applicable (ie. fire to oilers, but no effect on Quicksilvers)

Tier 2 - Teleports behind the Spiral Knight

The blob-lock will dissipate into the floor and reform somewhere behind the Spiral Knight. It will then proceed to attack the Knight.

Tier 3 - Witch's melting

When the Blob-lock dies, it shudders for two seconds before melting into the floor, creating a temporary tainted patch of the corresponding status effect on a small area of the floor. Slimes that can react to this status effect will do so when they cross over this residual slime. Knights who walk over this patch will suffer no damage but will have to pass a status check every second. If they fail, they become afflicted with that status. The default status-effect, if the Warlock has no status-theme, is stun, curse, or no-effect. Up to someone else to figure that out.

Slime Family New Functionality

CC becomes very important for controlling the dogged pursuit of waves of slimes. Simply running while charging your weapon should not be such an easy solution anymore, as the new blob-locks teleport to cut off your retreat and punish you for killing them without forethought of how you will avoid their slimy, status-ridden grave. You may be best off taking out all status-reactive Slimes first before taking on anything else. Or maybe you want to get rid of the blob-locks so your retreat is secured; or to prevent haphazard missiles from activating any status Slimes.

Also, the toxigels should be activated by poison, such that they spew waves of poison rapidly in an area around them, poisoning any nearby Knights.

Well, that's it. Let me know what you guys think, and thank you for reading!

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 20:01

Little-Juances

The slimes melting upon death, only to inflict a status could be too punishing for sword users, but a joke using guns.

Rather than a patch, it coudl release small delayed blobs, like the explosiive jellies. Said bobs would be pushed by monster/knights wich will ensure chaos for everyone on a tight battle.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 21:28

Havenihaveaproblem

Cool idea.

Thanks for the response.

I originally wanted them to explode. The problem was that I didn't want there to be too much overlap with the bomb slimes, so I decided on the patch. I should have indicated some sort of delay associated with it forming. Good point, I'll edit that in.

I should also point out that I am not going for balance for all weapon types. Certain weapon users have an easier time with certain enemies. That is how the game works now, and I think it's ok. You could argue, for example, that a gunslinger has an advantage against gun puppies because he can snipe them down with a Polaris, and they can't fire back.

Although...

The point of the warlock is to force you into pincer situations, with warlocks on one side and an army of cubic friends on the other. Even if you kill the warlocks, the slime left behind is an obstacle for you to run around if you are kiting a large slime wave. That actually could work to a gunslinger's disadvantage.

Slimes already have sort of a relentless feel to them, the way the entire family chases you inexorably. I wanted something that would synergize with this practically and thematically, and a pincer attack sort of forces you into a close combat situation, which is where the Slimes like to be. Also, it provides a way to ignite oilers, electrocute Quicksilvers, and freeze Ice Cubes, without relying on a trap or some other family.

Mon, 08/27/2012 - 23:11

Fehzor

I like your ideas, but not how they look. I'd rather see the shaman to be more in line with gremlin menders, and without rabbit ears… the slime thing I'd like to see as closer to the polyps, but without spikes and the ability to move. I'm sure Ian could easily come up with ideas on how they could fit in… of course, I agree with you, we do need these things, the shaman more than the jelly, because right now there are no beast enemies that aren't wolvers or chromalisks. I'd say that your buff to chromalisks would also be rather welcome, that they need a bit of a speed boost, and that their camouflage needs some work. The idea about making them absorb fire/ice/whatnot would also be particularly interesting, and I would love to see that but on a different enemy- it wouldn't feel right fighting shock themed chromalisks on a fire level. Also consider that sleep would need to be fixed prior to an all-element enemy, as people would all attempt to sleep vial the chromas… also, consider that curse from gran faust would be particularly interesting.

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 01:25

Havenihaveaproblem

Thanks Fehzor! Well, to each

Thanks Fehzor! Well, to each their own for the looks. I am probably one of the last people who should be deciding that :)

I suppose that certain status effects might have to be made exempt from the Chromalisk. Or, he could just become immune to any further abuse from that particular status effect and have no elemental feature to his attacks. But curse would definitely be interesting!

Manipulating the status effects via potions I hadn't thought of. But I guess it is kind of a given that it would ultimately be easy to work around the status effect since most parties have at least several available to them. The "donning" of status effects was mostly to catch the player with his pants down every now and then, either hitting him with an unexpected effect on a level or at least forcing him to mix up his weapons, which could pose at least an inconvenience.

But I think it only adds more variety to the game the more different tactics there are in it. If there's a monster that makes you want to throw your potions then that's great! They aren't used often enough.

Also, that was kind of the strength of the Chromalisk buff, that it could provide an unplanned-for status effect on a level and fits in well with his camouflage aspect. But that is just my opinion. I am trying to sort of give an identity to the Beast Family. So the players say, "Ok, beasts this level. I need this and this. Man, this family can be a pain. I wish it were constructs." Not "LOL BEASTS I AM PLAY WUN HANDED WATCH GAME OF THRONES 2 AFK GUYZ."

I heard that once...

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 15:09

Addisond

Yeah, beasts need expansion. However, I don't feel that slimes are as safe as you say they are; polyps lay down supporting fire, status slimes are dangerous when activated, and the spikes that slimes give out can often become so numerous that it's nearly impossible to dodge. Lichens are kind of a joke, but I feel that everything else there is at least somewhat dangerous, and since there are plenty of monsters here, I feel that fiends and undead could probably use the extra monsters more. However, beasts are different. They're so slow and predictable that it's almost impossible to be hurt by one. Though adding more is necessary, we also desperately need to give the current ones more punch. Chroma ideas seem cool, though animations actually start the moment the telegraphs are shown. Not sure where you plan on drawing the line.

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 11:38

Verodius

The Beast family does need some new foes quite badly, and these seem like pretty good ideas for new ones

Perhaps the Shaman could be a Sprite (the guys from FSC)? They seem like they'd fit perfectly

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 14:05

Thinslayer

Suggested modifications to Beasts and Slimes

The Wolvers need only a simple modification to give them strength again - give them the same tracking ability that the Phantoms, Oilers, and Almirian Crusaders have. They can only track during the pre-attack, and once they actually begin their attack, they can no longer track. This is a win-win for both parties; Wolvers get their much-needed punch, and the Knights can still evade them.

I think the shaman/sprite is a good idea, but could stand to be simpler. The beast support unit could be called the Cursed Sprite. These Sprites have been bullied into helping the beasts. However, since the Sprites will not harm their allies (Knights) under any circumstances, they have chosen instead to perform non-combat support duties. Cursed Sprites can:

Periodically buff the attacks of all monsters within a limited radius of the Sprite (all Tiers);
Reduce the attack charge time of any one monster they choose (T2 & T3 only);
Continuously heal a small amount of health every second for every monster within a limited radius of the Sprite, including the Sprite itself (like the Guardian Shield) (T3 only)

The death animation of a Cursed Sprite would be freedom from curse (turning from purple to green) and subsequent vanishing in a flash of light. Lore-wise, they don't die; they are just freed and teleport home.

Chromalisks already give beasts a ranged attack, but their incredible weakness to any attack makes them rather stupid. I like your idea for their cloaking A.I., and do not want to change that. However, I don't like your idea for them adapting to resist damage dealt. They should gain their unpredictability from being completely invisible, like Ghostmane Stalkers. Right now, they're just camouflaged, which is not enough to allow them to ambush us knights. Add in slightly better dodging, and they'll be formidable foes.

The Slimes have all the required infrastructure in place already; we just have to redistribute it. They have Jelly Cubes as melee units, Lichens as ranged units, and Blast Cubes as support units.

Now let's modify them a bit. The standard Lichens, Oilers, and Quicksilvers don't have ranged attacks, but only the regular Lichens really need one, as the other two have special abilities to make up for it. To make things more interesting, we could specialize the slimes: remove the thorn attack from all Jelly Cubes, remove the tackling from all non-colony lichens and give spin attacks to Oilers and Quicksilvers, and give Blast Cubes the thorn attack. Maybe also allow status lichens to merge into their own colonies for added difficulty.

New units:

Snarbolax Cub: a black, 6-eyed curse-themed Wolver
Alpha Snarbolax Cub: the alpha variant of the Snarbolax Cub
Cursed Sprite: attack-buffs monsters, reduces monster attack charge times, heals all monsters within a small radius

What think you?

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 16:25

Toxicyoccm

I'll read it, I swear

But I always thought it would be funny fighting some werewolf-knight in place of mechaknights in Arenas. That and a bee hive for a Beast Turret.
I like ideas for more enemies. Ok, going back to read through it.

E:
-At first I wasn't digging the Mammoth idea, but I could see some large 'stunning' beast roaming the clockworks' beast-stages. I am not sure I like it's second attack, nor am I entirely cool with it's AoE. If it gets sorted out by tier where in T1, it is just a mammoth that can come down on you; T2 it can puff up an AoE, and by T3 it has a Toxilargo-like stun cloud and maybe, buffing its' comrades, sure. The breath-attack, I don't know. The image I had when I read that was... silly, to say the least.
As you say, on its own it shouldn't be too daunting. I feel a breath attack, on top of AoE is redundant. (maybe if it could shoot 'stun balls' from it's trunk... nah)
-The Shaman... I really dislike the traps. I have no problem with a monster that can buff-up wolver speed/defense/attack and heal, but making brambles or other traps could render a level almost unplayable. The scenario I'm imagining is where you get two shaman together that could corner you in a status-fence. Also, since players can't attack while shielding, if you put up a defense like that around a single Shaman gunning would be the only way to avoid the brambles. (since it doesn't move, bombing might not even be an option). I see how having it be unique could be nice, I think this one enemy is doing a bit too much, and should probably just stick to buff/healing. (and a new enemy can drop statuses, like... chromalisk)
-I'm liking the idea of some, Copylisk or Mirrorlisk beast that transforms based on statuses. I think it should be its own enemy, instead of overriding an existing one. Or at the least only allowing non-status Chromalisk that change once. The increase in speed would be nice, though.
-Your Squishy Wizard is pretty nice. Except, it's basic form doesn't add something Poylp already do. I would have thought it would be a miniroyal jelly, with the wizard hat, that left a trail that could heal jellies that wiggled onto it. Now, this is just because of lore, but I wouldn't make a jelly help a lichen. They aren't the same species. So for a means to activate Oiler/quicksilver/toxijels (which I suppose activated would be like oilers but leave a poisonous trail) could be a similar clear Lichen Squishy Wizard. The idea of teleporting and absorbing status... I like the teleport. Completely fine with it. Not so much the status manipulating and to be honest I don't know what you mean by having players do a status check. If I may do a bit of a redesign:

Lichen Squishy Wizard:
Clear-white lichen with a blue hat, no appearance change in across all tiers. Appears with lichens, can hold statuses that can further spread to the mob.
Basic attacks: Nipping at players and shoots harmful blob as a lichen would shoot barbs
T1: Upon death leaves a puddle of ooze that heals monsters (ala silkwing), may cause stun
T2: Can dash towards players, deals no damage; can melt and reform near players; Puddle stays around longer, may also cause fire, freeze, or shock
T3: Puddle may also cause poison or curse. (or just have blobs cause random status barring curse. People don't like curse for some reason).
All status are random, and inflicted after a delay. Tip: Don't stay too long on that puddle (imagine having all 6 statuses applied, yeah fire-ice will negate but still).

Jelly Cube Wizard
Clear-White Impostocube with white hair and blue hat, no appearance change across all tiers. Alternatively, a clear-white Royal minijelly with blue hat
Basic attack: Jelly-tackle and leaves a trail of healing slime,
T1: Upon death leaves a puddle of ooze that heals monsters (ala silkwing)
T2: Can fire harmful blobs; can magic up minijellies
T3: Can magic up other Jelly Cube Wizards. (a limit on 2 per wizard)
I think it could be become a nice competition to see how many wizards you could get created before the game crashes.

I hope you don't mind; Overall I like your effort, I would love to have the mammoth, evolving chromalisks, and jellies. The image of a jelly with a wizard hat is humorous.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 00:23

Havenihaveaproblem

Thanks for some of the

Thanks for some of the well-detailed posts. I've been reading them but I haven't had a good block of time where my thoughts were organized enough to respond. I'll write back when I get a chance, hopefully tomorrow.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 14:45

#10

Havenihaveaproblem

@Thinslayer, Toxicyoccm, and Addisond

You guys have made some good ideas. I'll give you my personal thoughts on them here, but I will qualify my statements by saying that there are many routes to balance. As in any game, it is ultimately the design team's decision in which direction they want to go when balancing or adding in features. It's very possible your ideas would work fine, too.

With that in mind, here are my thoughts on your ideas:

@ Thinslayer

Tracking ability
Changing the tracking abilities of the Wolvers is an interesting idea. I think it would go a ways in making them more difficult to deal with; however, if the family were to only consist of Wolvers, they would still lack a ranged attack and be kiteable. They would essentially be in the same situation the Slimes are in, now, without the Giant Lichen Colony.

Support Unit T1
As for the support unit, the buffing of attack damage is a bit repetitive, because the Alpha Wolver already does this.

Support Unit T2
Increasing the attack speed of only one unit at a time is interesting (mine was intended to increase the speed for the entire pack). It gives the player the choice to avoid focus on one creature at a time, or try to eliminate the large creature. It certainly creates a synergistic relationship between the support unit and one of the Wolvers which opens up interesting tactical possibilities.

Support Unit T3
Healing is an idea that also crossed my mind. What I didn't like about it is that it feels generic. I didn't want to copy every other support unit in the game with a heal. Healing is always powerful and can always be used to beef up a family individually, but it doesn't contribute to giving a family its own unique feel. Part of why the Gremlin and Fiend families are unique is because they are the only ones with a heal. You have a short ranged healer and a long ranged healer, and as a player part of your strategy in fighting those respective families includes their unique healers. A healer in the beast family will mean the player gets to recycle this strategy, rather than have to adapt to something new. Furthermore, the game is already set up so that when one Family without a healer needs a healer, their spawn points include either a Mender or a Silkwing. One could argue that any other healer isn't necessary.

Sprite death animation
I like your idea about sprites and the death animation.

Chromalisks
I think your idea about Chromalisks could work, if complete invisibility is the route OOO would want to take.

Slimes
First of all, I am not sure that Lichens make a good ranged unit because they combine. This means that you have a ranged unit who is rapidly disappearing from the field. Placing a unique aspect of the Family onto this unit immediately destabilizes that aspect.

Another point:
One thing I don't want to do is make many changes for relatively little gain. Redistributing the entire family creates a problem for existing players adapting to it, and when it is all for the sake of Slimes getting a ranged attack, it actually becomes simpler to just add another slime, in my opinion. In improving the game, I don't think it should be a goal to do as much improving as you can by adding as little content as possible.

That said, efficient use is good. To me, efficient use means that everything you add serves a unique purpose. We could, for example, make two ranged units for slimes. One unit walks around and shoots a broad wave of thorns. The other one fires fast, single thorn projectiles. While they are both similar, their ultimate purpose is ranged support fire, and you do not need two units to do this. It would make more sense to have one unit that fires, say, a narrow wave of 3 thorns that travel somewhat fast.

It also goes without saying that adding content that does not fill some hole or expand the game in a new direction serves no purpose.

Now, at the end of your post you suggested 2 more units for the Beasts. Since you didn't provide any background information, I can't state anything for certain about them. Their appearance sounds fearsomely cool, but what do they do that enhances the Beast Family in something it needs? From their names, they seem like simply buffed up versions of Wolvers. If that were the case, I would suggest removing the redundant damage buff from the Sprite and changing it to something that increases durability and turns the creature black. Then you have buffed versions of regular Wolvers as well as the change of appearance.

Those are my thoughts. Thanks for your post; there were definitely some good ideas. I was especially intrigued by the tracking idea and the invisibility.

@ Toxicyoccm

Mammoth
I appreciate the feedback on the breath attack. Perhaps it should be removed altogether. I myself am no longer sure it is necessary.

Regarding AoE, I assumed you were referring to the stun. The stun would deal no damage, so I am not sure it should be considered as overlap with a possible breath attack.

Shaman

Nowhere did I say the Shaman should be able to heal. I am against resorting to an overused solution like healing for a support unit. That said, you raise a good point on the trap field. I have thought about it instead creating a square or circle of brambles, where the brambles only appear on the perimeter of the shape. So, you would only have to cross one tile to get through it. Alternatively, leaving the system as is, you could adjust the size of the terrain affected to be smaller. A T1 might make a 2x2 patch, a T2 a 3x3 patch, a T3 a 4x4 patch, using Shadowfire as a reference for 1 tile. You also have the option of limiting the Shamans to only 1 or 2 per spawn, so you never encounter them in groups (Menders and Silkwings are also I think never present in more than 2). Furthermore, all of their spell effects, including this trap terrain, disappear when they die, and they can only create 1 or 2 trap effects per Shaman. In this case, I don't have a problem if you are liable to be cornered. It could become part of the tactics to avoid corners when fighting Beasts.

The protective wards around the Shaman were also intended to be a perimeter effect. So, there is a circle, the Shaman is in it, and at the EDGE of the circle are the traps. You have to cross over a thin layer of brambles to be inside of his ring, where you can then attack him with a sword with impunity. This I don't mind as much, because anything, within reason, that encourages hybrid builds/cooperative teamwork is good for the game. To do that, one type of build must be at a noticeable (but not prohibitive) disadvantage where other types are at an advantage. There is currently too little of this element in the game already, since swords fare well in just about everything.

Chromalisk

Thanks!

Warlock

Now, I do have to disagree with the Polyp remark :) The Polyp is a stationary turret. It provides ranged support but it is somewhat binary in how a player must react. It gives the player basically two choices: It is VERY strong if you fight within range of it, so you either run away from it, or you run up and kill it immediately, and the turret can't defend itself too well. That's the role of turrets, and they do that well.

The Warlock moves around. It is NOT as strong as a single turret, but for that it follows you around and has a shorter range. Furthermore, the Warlock in this instance serves three purposes, all wrapped up into one unit for the Slime family.

1) Reliable ranged fire. Random thorns from spinning and the somewhat infrequent and slow thorns from the ground don't quite cut it. Turrets are a different kind of ranged fire that is more static. As stated before, they are too often either out of range or destroyed immediately. A Warlock moves with the pack, so you have to go through the pack to kill it. It's a more dynamic ranged support fire.

2) Cuts off your retreat. Slimes are VERY strong in close combat, in numbers. They are, however, helpless when kited. The Warlock accentuates a strength of the slimes and makes them less easily exploited. This is what a support unit is for.

3) Provides the Slime family a way to empower its status Slimes. It just doesn't make sense to me that the Slimes can't do this on their own; they need a Gremlin Scorcher or Construct Gun Puppy to do it. This detracts from the credibility of the Slime Family when you face them. Ideally, a player should have in his mind 6 Monster Families that are distinct and all fearsome in their own right. Synergy between Families is excellent, but no one Family should be relegated to a "support" Family. That is my opinion on what the design philosophy towards the Monster Families should be.

Lichen/Slime Warlock
Keep up the ideas! As long as you think they are both fresh ideas that benefit the game and are efficient use of content, I am all for ideas!

@ Addisond

Thanks for your comment. I'll start by saying I do believe the Slimes are a little weak at the moment; however, I do admit they are very close to being viable and can be dangerous in certain circumstances, but not in the right circumstances in the right way. I'll go ahead and list my thoughts on each Monster Family below, since you mentioned almost every single one in your comment. I'll throw in Construct for thoroughness. This is just to let you know where I stand, and it might explain my thought process a bit better.

Slimes

I'm in disagreement that Slimes are equally as threatening as any other family except for Beasts. I can see how this would be a personal opinion, but I will say that I have heard from others they also felt the Slimes and Beasts were the weakest families. I do agree that Slimes can be sufficiently formidable, but only when they are paired with other Families, such as Gun Puppies, Scorchers, and Silkwings. I personally am against any one Family being subservient to another.

Fiends and Undead

In terms of absolute number of different units, you are right the Fiend Family could use more. In terms of practicality, I don't think it is necessary.

What is most important to me is the overall experience of a family. The Fiend Family has relatively few units, but they are the most cohesive and synergistic group of units in the game, in my opinion. Devilities are fast, can swarm, and deal massive ranged damage, Overlords empower them, Yesmen deter players from killing Overlords so the Devilites get promoted, and Silkwings are powerful healers because their short range means they will always have an ally near them to protect them. The one weakness in the family is their low health, interruptibility, and lack of melee. Enter the Trojan, who fills that gap nicely.

I'm not sure what content could be added that would make sense for the Fiends. The Family just seems functionally so complete. Maybe you could introduce outsourcing to the Fiend business, so that other Monster Families are seen as business competitors. Other Monster Families become mutual enemies of yours and the Fiends, so the Fiends attack them, too. That could make for some funny interactions. I don't know.

Undead doesn't make as efficient use of its units, but they have many different units which makes them ultimately well-varied. I think the Almirian Crusader was an important addition because their standard foot soldier, Zombies, are a bit weak. The Deadnaught was another important addition to their ground force because it removed the Undead Family's reliance on Trojans for shock troopers. FSC should be updated with these units. I think in the Clockworks the Undead are a little weak because these two units aren't present, but with the units they are a strong Family. I'd like to do something similar with Slimes by removing their reliance on other races and shoring up their weaknesses, too.

Construct

The Construct Family is interesting to me because they have almost no synergy; it's like a bunch of different kinds of units were just thrown together. I like it thematically, as it lends to that "assembled on the spot" feel, as if each unit were built for a specific purpose, without some grand intelligent design linking them all as a Family. It's definitely a unique feel among the Families.

I still think they could use a very minor buff. I would take the Retrode and change it's laser ranged attack so that it buffs allied units (or maybe just fellow Constructs) it fires through with 20% increased movement speed for three seconds. The Retrode is right now the least useful Construct in my opinion (even less useful than Scuttlebot!), and the family as a whole has a slight issue with being kited. The Retrode is supposed to provide ranged support, but the attack is so easily dodged; however, this won't matter with the movement buff. The Retrode will become a dangerous unit whether or not it lands its laser, and it shores up a slight Construct Family weakness in kiting.

Beast

Glad we agree! I did intend to give the current ones more punch exactly through the units I added. The Mammoth has a stun effect which will be huge in helping the Wolver Pack chase you down and dominate you. The Shaman cuts off your ability to move around without hindering the Wolvers because monsters aren't affected by Brambles. The Shaman also increases the attack speed of its units. All in all, the Wolvers get a huge buff with these two new units.

Regarding the Chromalisk, I intended for it to run up to you while camouflaged, begin its attack (flashes yellow, visible to the player) while camouflaged, and then become uncamouflaged when its tongue leaves its mouth. I'll definitely go back and try to clarify that.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 14:18

#11

Havenihaveaproblem

@Verodious

Forgot to mention, I think the idea of Sprites is great! I think Thinslayer suggested Cursed Sprites be used. Those are both awesome ideas to me!

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 18:02

#12

Thinslayer

Allow me to modify a few things.

How about we modify my Snarbolax Cubs? They could have the following features:

Howling instead of barking
A spin attack
A frontal shield
Turns yellow and frontal shield is disabled when stunned
A double-range attack buff (Alphas only)

This gives the Wolver family a powerful ranged unit, and one that will require a little strategy and teamwork to defeat.

Possible easter egg: holographic Wolvers and Snarbolaxes have a small chance to frighten a Snarbolax Cub, causing it to turn tail and run away at double speed until it reaches a wall while repeatedly making the "hurt bark" sound.

Wolver tracking was intended to be a part of the suggestion. I didn't intend it to be taken alone as a way to fix the Beast family in and of itself; it is just one of the factors needed to add strength to the family. No matter how much support we add to them, if their base unit is weak, then the family will be weak.

Perhaps all the slimes need is a little A.I. modification. The underground thorn attack needs to lead its attacks, since any movement, let alone kiting, will easily dodge it. That alone could give the family some serious ranged punch. Then give the base lichen a spin attack, and the slimes will be good to go.

Not sure yet how to modify the Sprites.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 12:52

#13

Havenihaveaproblem

What is a double range attack

What is a double range attack buff?

Why is howling instead of barking important?

How will a shield help the Beast Family when it already dodges projectiles anyways?

How will making a Wolver run to a wall and repeatedly bark make any kind of important contribution to the Beast Family at all? If anything, it would only weaken them.

The slime thorn attack already semi-predicts movement. It's certainly not based solely on where you are at the moment. It seems to be somewhat random, although I have seen it predict where I will be.

Edit: Writing down thoughts into text often removes emotion from the message, so I'm sorry if I sounded too critical. However, if you can answer the above questions reasonably, then you might be on to something. Now, if you were just suggesting aesthetic changes, then that's a completely different thing!

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 01:15

#14

Softhead

Got some expansion ideas...

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/59387

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 06:55

#15

Doctorspacebar

Here's some more ideas.

Absolutely love the ideas here (especially the "Squishy Wizard"), here are some more ideas.

You mentioned a ranged-support Construct? Here's another!
Crimson Multitank

This enormous Gremlin creation, designed by Seerus himself, is both tank and artillery! It possesses a powerful Machine Gun that can fire three, seven, or even twelve bullets in rapid succession. Instead of the classic forward-facing barrel, it packs an artillery cannon that launches a cannonball into the air. High-end models also have a few extra gimmicks, kitchenettes and rocket launchers.

Weak Spot?: The best place to hit a Multitank is from the side, where the treads are. The tank will happily roll over you if you approach from the front or back, and most of its weapons are aimed at its front. It turns slowly, though its Artillery Cannon turns quickly It's weak to Elemental damage like all Constructs. The Multitank is the only construct not immune to sleep, because there's a Gremlin inside operating the thing. However, it resists Stun and Fire very heavily!

Machine Gun: Mounted on the front of the Multitank, near the treads. It fires Gun Puppy bullets in a straight line: 3 in Tier 1, 7 in Tier 2, or 12 in Tier 3! Fortunately, it doesn't change direction and is fairly easy to avoid. The Tier 2 and 3 versions augment their bullets with Freeze, so avoid that line!

Mortar: Mounted on top of the Multitank, the Artillery Cannon lobs a single large mortar. When at close range (which is where you'll usually be fighting it), it'll launch the mortar into the air (watch the shadow), then the shadow will seem to get bigger as the mortar falls, and you'll hear the telltale sound of the mortar falling. Finally, the mortar will land, creating a Knocker-sized explosion. This attack has a considerable range; however, it's fairly slow. Tier 2 and 3 versions will cause Fire with the explosions.

Little people pancakes: This half-quote from Advance Wars 2's Lash efficiently summarizes what'll happen if you linger in front of the Multitank. It can easily move forward or backward should you be a space away, and any target it moves over will take heavy damage and Stun. Stay away from the front of the Multitank!

Rocket Launcher: This nasty little weapon fires two Ironclaw Rockets, one to each side, making it dangerous to attack from the back. It's a Tier 2 and 3 specific weapon.

Malfunction: The Multitanks in Tiers 1 and 2 malfunction like a Mecha Knight, except they don't have an easy close range attack to apply Shock with. The Tier 3 Multitank has been so optimized that even its malfunctions are powerful weapons, and they produce a small electrical mist around the tank; if that one malfunctions, step back, quick!

Hazardous Fumes: The Multitanks in Tier 3 spew a constant stream of Poison mist two spaces out their backs. After all, the Darkfang model was the first model to include a built-in restroom.

Where it is: Most likely as a rare mid-boss in Gremlin or Construct areas, like a Trojan. In particular, Gremlin and Construct Arenas, that once had a Giant Lichen Colony or Trojan at the end of their waves, will now have a more fitting mid-boss, and perhaps it can be found in Deconstruction Zones overseeing operations.

As you can see, the Multitank is big, provides ranged support, and can churn out five different status effects. Not to mention it can roll over Knights and may frequently appear with Menders. Let that sink in for a bit. Yeah, I know we have Battlepods, but they're even more of a mini-boss.

As for a ranged slime...

Jellatapult
Another big-siege-engine-type-thing, this fairly Lumber-sized foe is the result of a peace treaty between Jellies and Lichens. (You DO see them together in many areas, such as the Royal Jelly Palace.) Basically, it's a Lichen Colony that has a slime catapult on its back. A Jelly Cube will toss various objects inside, and the catapult will hurl them.

Jelly Ball: In all tiers, the Jellatapult can hurl a ball of goo that hits an area of one-and-a-half spaces outside of its center. As with the Mortar above, watch that shadow! The ball has spikes in Tiers 2 and 3, and deals Piercing damage as a result.

Ooze Volley: In all tiers, the Jellatapult can fling a volley various status-effect oozes that look suspiciously like Chroma saliva. Three blobs fall at random positions in Tier 1, five in Tier 2, seven in Tier 3. The positioning and status effect of each is random, but always is in front of where the Jellatapult flung them. Yet again, watch those shadows! Depending on the status, these oozes can ignite Oilers, refreeze Ice Cubes, or supercharge Quicksilvers, and in Tier 3, there's a very small chance of a vile Cursed ooze being flung in the volley!

Airborne Assault: In Tiers 2 and 3, a Jelly Cube, Oiler, Ice Cube, Lichen, Quicksilver, Toxigel, Toxoil, or Blast Cube can be flung by the Jellatapult. It'll always land within the bounds of the area, striking a large 360-degree area around it as it comes down. The Blast Cube can be picked up even while exploding, and holds off on its explosion until it's flung and lands. Do I even need to say "watch that shadow" again? The Jellatapult will quiver to signal it's ready to use Airborne Assault, and nearby Jellies and Lichens will swarm toward it until one is picked up. Also, if a Blast Cube dies near the Jellatapult when it's not mid-attack, the Jellatapult will immediately pick up the dying Blast Cube.

Mini-Mob: In Tier 3, the Jellatapult can create Jelly Minis to use as ammunition. The Minis don't cause direct damage when they land, but they land quickly and create obstructions.

Shake Off: The Jellatapult can always shake off enemies, knocking back Knights, but doing little to no damage.

Compliments? Scathing rebukes?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 12:47

#16

Havenihaveaproblem

Haha I only had time to read

Haha I only had time to read the Jellatapult but I already love it. Will read through the rest and Atrum's thread and post my thoughts for discussion.

Thanks for the contributions!

Wed, 09/19/2012 - 22:55

#17

Thinslayer

@Havenihaveaproblem

The double-range attack buff is just that - an attack buff that has extra range over what is normal.
Howling instead of barking is an aesthetic change. It adds a creepy factor to the Snarby cubs.
The shield removes their vulnerability to being cornered, which is the Achilles Heel of Wolvers. It's also reminiscent of Snarby.
The wolvers running to the wall and barking in fright was meant to be a rare "Easter egg." I don't care about it that much, really.

Sorry it took me so long to reply to that. :)

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Expanded Monster Families - additions to the Beast and Slime Families