Spiral Knights - Fang of Vog - Useless and weak

Fang of Vog - Useless and weak

57 replies [Last post]

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 06:22

El-Odio

Disclaimer: If you don't want to read, there is a summary at the end.

Let's sum up the facts:

3-Hit combo - noticeably slower than standard
Damage a normal swing on Stratum 6 is about 173 - 183 , last swing 258 - 251
Can inflict strong fire on every attack
Charge Attack can cause up to 4 times heavy damage
Damage per Charge-hit on Stratum 6 is 440 - 483, about 1800 if everything hits
Good chance to inlfict fire upon yourself when using the charge attack, slightly larger range than a normal attack, circular knockback

Now let's take a look at the Combuster:

Standard 3-Hit combo - normal speed
Damage a normal swing on Stratum 6 is about 198 - 203, last swing 291 - 292
Can inflict strong fire only with the charge attack
Charge Attack can cause heavy damage and fair damage on each explosion
Damage per Charge-explosion on Stratum 6 is 106 - 117, initial swing does 481 - 531, about 1200 if everything hits
No drawbacks to the charge, large range and knockback

Good, so let's compare them:
The FoV is slower, weaker, has small range and will likely set you on fire while it's charge attack has a chance to inflict greater damage as well as generally causing fire more often.

Does the Charge and the chance to inflict fire on normal hits outwight the slower speed, the significantly lower damage on normal hits as well as the chance to burn youself to a chunk of charcoal?
No, not even with a lot of good-will. Spamming the charge-attack outside of boss fights will drain your life more than enemy attacks and even nuking the Jelly King is not viable any more.

The general suggestion is to make the FoV better, but in which way? What niche should the Fang occupy? After all the Combuster already is a good fire inducing sword. (Furious Flamberge is quite useless as well, but that's another story.)

One idea that comes to mind is making it a kind of Ash of Agni. That is not say that it should be a bomb, but it would be great if it became "da bomb". Ha. Well, what I mean is, that it should focus on it's wildfire spreading.
It already does less damage than the Combuster but unfortunatly is also horribly slow and has a poor range.
Now how about we just leave 3/4 Fire but change the attack-pattern to the Wild Hunting Blade? After all it's the FANG of Vog, so Vog biting on attacks would only make sense. Damage would then however need to be adjusted.
The Wild Hunting Blade does 108 - 108 on a normal swing and 57 - 62 on the afterimage, but we want it for the status... Yet WHB and DVS are already rather weak and rather difficult to use. 99-99 and 55-60 should do the trick.

The Charge however should stay mostly the same, except for two things: Damage should be reduced to 360 - 400 and in return it should be stripped of it user-burning. It would still be strong, but a lot more viable.

Summary:

Change the attack pattern to Wild Hunting Blades
Lower the damage on normal hits to 99-99 and to 55-60 for the phantasmal Vogs
Keep the good chance for strong fire as it is
Lower the damage on the charge attack to 360 - 400
Remove the chance of receiving Fire from the charge attack

(All numbers are taken from the wiki - I don't assume any liability for them)

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 06:32

Little-Juances

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbXoQ8odFb8&feature=related

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 06:34

Derpules

Woah, let's not be too hasty.

As far as the charge goes, I'd much rather keep the chance of self-ignition than give up damage on the charge. The risk/reward balance makes it fun: it produces an amazing charge that you don't just run around spamming on every enemy you see. Take that element away and it would just be an elemental Calibur, charge-wise.

BTW, why do you say nuking JK isn't viable any more? What changed, and when?

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 06:43

El-Odio

The video has [outdated] clearly visible in its titel and is over a year old. Also, I am suggesting a nerf of the charge of nearly 100 damage.
What did you try to achieve with this?
It was usable once, but that time is long gone. As far as I know JK has been adjusted and the charge been nerfed once already.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 06:43

Derpules

Eh?

I was happily nuking JK with FoV just last month. I did not encounter any problems.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 07:02

El-Odio

In 18 seconds?

In 18 seconds? And do you use the FoV anywhere else?
Regardless of the charge, what about the normal hits?

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 07:10

Derpules

Can't confirm 18 seconds.

Can confirm it's very quick--quicker than any other method I've used. (Can also confirm that I'm not a very good player and do occasionally whiff on charges.) BTW, what's the change that supposedly made FoV worse against JK since that video was made?

FWIW, I do use the FOV elsewhere. Purely for the charge, and only with a full-fire set.

I don't think I disputed the fact that the normal hits need a buff. I just opined that nerfing the charge would be a bad idea. I'd rather keep the self-burn along with the current charge strength.

Edit: Here's a video from 5 months ago--AFAIK, JK has been neither nerfed nor buffed since then. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) 30 seconds, and the guy derps a lot (rather like me). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOrqzKbxgLE

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 07:08

Aumir

FoV's niche is its charge attack, which is surprisingly ridiculously powerful. It is also outside of that more of a "prize sword" because, well, it is so easy to get once you are endgame, and is basically a weapon that would usually be worth 800CE free. It doesn't need a buff due to this.

If you want a similar, better, not autodestructive fire sword, get a Combuster. There was also a fire toothpick, I think.

You did put up work writing though, and of course it would be nice to get more strength out of it, but to me FoV is just as said a "here you go, you are an endgame player" prize.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 07:29

El-Odio

No objection to that

Sure, it works well, but does killing a depth 16 Boss really say anything about it's general usability?
Do you take it along if you just go for a stroll hrough the Clockwork? Into Legion of Almire? Ghosts of the Maschine?
I can't find the update, because finding anything in this forum is a pain in the butt. Can't tell you more than that they weakend the Jelly Kings attack and slightly buffing his defence. Through that was before my time, so my word on that is worth little more than anyone elses.

At least on the normal attack we agree. :D

The charge attack is very powerful, yes, I said so myself, but does it really justify a whole weapon to not useable any other way? Or in any other situation than against the Jelly?

Also, I might be wrong, but don't you think it's a shame to just have any weapon be a "prize weapon"? After all there are people who still try to buff Cobalt, which is also little more than beginner gear. Wouldn't it be better if you could play this game with what you like, instead of just using one uber powerful set for whatever you do? Just saying..

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 07:25

Aumir

Well

You technically can use it too in Ghosts in the Machine, and even if it isn't weak against elemental, Maulos will also get full hits - Not to mention clear a large area of ice due to the multiple hits.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 07:47

#10

Derpules

We're talking at cross-purposes.

I have one and only one important point to make:

Please. Do not. Mess with. The charge.

Everything else I have posted was in direct response to a claim you made that was simply false, i.e. "even nuking the Jelly King is not viable any more". That is just wrong, and I point that out for the sake of correctness--practically speaking, it makes little difference.

P.S. It would be nice if you could be clearer about which poster you're addressing with which point.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 08:03

#11

Darkbrady

FoV is just a weapon of

FoV is just a weapon of preference. The fire it lands on the second hit is strong and can do a lot of damage in itself; this is nothing akin to the "chance" of GF inflicting curse on the 2nd swing; it is very easy for FoV to inflict fire, and that must be taken into consideration when calculating the weapons worth, especially since fire causes so much damage so fast.

The regular swings are slow, but not by any enormous degree, and with even a small amount of ASI you can still kill (effectively) as fast as with a Brandish. As for the charge, it's one of the most powerful in the game and can be used wherever you like. The drawback is requiring some fire resistance, but other than that you can use it for whatever you like; entire groups of enemies can be floored at once, even when surrounded, trojans get dstroyed, JK gets owned, RT get owned, in LD you can totally destroy many players with a charge....it may not be capable of being used quite as often, but it's a "bigger risk, bigger reward" type charge. Think Troika lines; big risk, big damage....but bigger! All those damages arguably merit a drawback; a potential self-inflict is the answer.

Sure, it is a trophy weapon more than anything else, but it can certainly earn its keep if you choose to use it. However, it is a bit unfair to say that it's weak compared to some of the other more versatile weapons -especially ones that received vast, unnecessary buffs- when the FoV is essentially a free reward and can still be used competitively. .

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 08:05

#12

Derpules

^Agreed.

Except that I do think its normal swings could still use a modest buff. I don't think the fact that it's "free" should be a material concern.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 09:15

#13

Draycos

An elemental Cutter-heck, any

An elemental Cutter-heck, any specialized damage Cutter-would be awesome.

As it is now, the charge attack on the FoV is fine. Solid damage at a chance to cook yourself. Assuming Brandishes and Blitz Needles didn't exist or never got overbuffed, it'd be the best charge attack in the game (for raw damage at least).

As for the normal attacks, I play with maximum ASI at all times, and it actually isn't that slow... but it has noticeably more recovery time. It's essentially a heavy sword with a 3-hit combo. I just did some testing in the Training Hall and D19 (poison stratum if it matters); in the time it takes for a FoV to do a full combo and be attacking again, a Brandish-line 5* is already started on the first attack of a second combo. The fire status on the FoV deals damage in four ticks, about equivalent to one bonus-damage attack (198 on hit vs. Constructs at D19 with 4 ticks of 54 fire damage). The fire proc'd approximately 20% of the time. Attacks using a Glacius dealt 228.

Looking at the data above, a FoV can only (roughly) match a 5* Brandish in normal damage if the fire procs, with a 20% chance to set something on fire per hit. The only thing it really has going for it is the charge attack, but realistically, you'd never use that without remedies or massive Fire resist.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 09:41

#14

Addisond

It's currently a niche sword, and for a token reward that seems like an apt role. Although it could be a bit better at said niche.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 09:41

#15

Canine-Vladmir

My Favorite Swords are...

the Leviathan Blade and the Fang of Vog.
I'm telling you, the FoV is perfect at what it does. Its an End-Game hard to earn Sword and it takes some time to get used to it but when you get the hang of it, its seriously OP in the right hands.
It is slow, has essentially the same damage as a 4* sword but it has huge perks.

ONE: weapon can cause strong fire on its first, second,and/or third normal attack pattern. I can kill slime's, construct, Gremlins, even fiends just by lighting them up.
TWO: Extremely Powerful Charge Attack. You can seriously one shot kill monsters with one charge. In fsc party of 4, i did a one shot kill on two spawned trojans. Name me another weapon that can do that?
THREE: its a power house with the right gear. Vog Cub set + FoV = Troll Master. Attack Speed Increased Very High plus Fire Resist is the perfect set with FoV. I can do shadow or piercing themed levels with the same set up and come out victorious.
FOUR: its just oodles of fun in Lockdown.

FoV is hard to get used to but once you get over that barrier, the FoV is a trusty side arm.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 11:33

#16

Dreathuxy

My opinion

FoV is a boss reward and is a collectors item. Its just there to show off. Although I have seen people make good use of it in LD.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 12:22

#17

Derpules

"What is" and "what should be" are not the same.

Why can't a boss reward/collector's item also be an excellent sword in its own right?

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 10:46

#18

Addisond

Because it's too easy to get, especially from a financial perspective.

The way the CoA works is a much better model; you get a shield that doesn't work very well and then spend a fair amount of money to get it to be a worthwhile equip.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 19:00

#19

Darkbrady

Aye, it's got nothing to do

Aye, it's got nothing to do with it being a "boss reward" that makes it weak, it's more to do with it being a "free" boss reward. No one says the sealed sword lines are weak, but it's ok because they're boss rewards; they're great, but you still have to pay up. FoV has the advantage of basically being free after a few FSC runs (full five star, built up juicyness...for essentially zero cost) so compared to a sword that you spent 1,5k ce + time on, it's hardly fair to expect it to be better than it...no one'd want to craft anymore, then!

Altough, as I stated in my post, I feel that it's still an excellent weapon despite being free, it's just not the best in the game, but imo, that lands perfectly where it should, considering it's a boss reward; strong weapon, potential for competitive use, but not OP by any standards.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 22:13

#20

Dead-Bard

It's a 5* sword that costs

It's a 5* sword that costs 40000Cr instead of 1450CE & 48900Cr.

I'm totally ok with it not being up to par to the Combuster, considering how cheap it is, it shouldn't be.
Also I use it quite often on Arcade runs considering its fire effect on normal swings makes it an all purpose sword, get to FSC with Vog Cub set and Crest of Almire (which you'll need anyway considering the whole dungeon is about fire) and you can pretty much spam its charge attack as much as you please.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 22:20

#21

Derpules

I don't buy that argument.

The SS is a free sword and is perfectly good for the tier at which you get it--in fact, it's probably the best non-piercing 3* sword. For that matter, the Antigua is the best 3* piercing gun. The Pulsar is probably the best 2* gun, period. BB and SB are, respectively, best and tied for best for similar items in their star-level.

Conclusion: There is no general principle that a free/token item can't be excellent for the star-level it comes in.

@Darkbrady: "No one says the sealed sword lines are weak, but it's ok because they're boss rewards; they're great, but you still have to pay up."

Not for the 3* version. You don't pay anything at all (other than opportunity cost), but you get the best non-piercing 3* sword in the game.

And yeah, you do need to pay if you want to take it to 5*--but that inconvenience is reflected in the fact that you get it from farming a T2 boss, and you spend only 20 tokens (compared to FoV's 40 tokens) getting it.

"FoV has the advantage of basically being free after a few FSC runs (full five star, built up juicyness...for essentially zero cost) so compared to a sword that you spent 1,5k ce + time on, it's hardly fair to expect it to be better than it...no one'd want to craft anymore, then!"

Hardly. Even a beefed up FoV couldn't compare to Brandishes and 2-swingers in their respective niches. Furthermore, players will need a sword along the way--they can't just hop directly into FSC as a 0*!--so they'll already have an ele sword crafted. FoV wouldn't allow them to skip that.

On a related note, you didn't directly suggest this, but just in case: I quite doubt your average player would think, "Man, I wasted my CE, cr and time crafting that other sword now that I have this awesome reward sword." They'd think, "Man, I spent all that CE, cr and time getting my 5* set so I could reach the end-game and fight Vana--but wow, this awesome reward sword makes it all worth it!"

@Dead-Bard: It doesn't matter what shield you use with it. Shield resistances are a totally separate thing.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 22:23

#22

Dead-Bard

Except you won't just be

Except that, as you also mentioned yourself, you won't just be satisfied with SS, SB, Antigua but you'll go get their upgraded versions once you try to rank up and considering the fact that you can only find the recipe for any of the token weapons/armors from Arcade runs you'll either have to spend more money by buying them from other players, waste energy on recipe-farming, or have really nice friends, while FOV is pretty much a complete weapon, so yeah, my argument still stands.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 22:25

#23

Derpules

Yes, it is a complete weapon.

Which is perfectly appropriate given that the vast majority of players will already be full 5* by the time they earn it. Getting the FoV, even if it was made more powerful than it is now, would not replace or allow them to skip other 5* swords.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 22:28

#24

Darkbrady

The difference is that the

The difference is that the other boss weapons you get pre 5*, so altough (I do agree it's a bit unfair that) they're competitve in their tier, you do still need to craft them up beyond that if you hope to keep using them, whereas the FoV is automatically finalised for you, making it far more free than any of the other boss rewards. The same kinda thing applies to the Ancient Plate; it's free armour, so not great.

Hey, I wouldn't complain if it was beefed up a bit to be more competitive; I'm well aware that it's still barely reaching the boudnaries of a balanced weapon, but the fact is it does, even if only just. They clearly see a free sword as worth less to the player than one that has to be crafted; especially since crafting is what funds the game; they certainly don't want people getting too cosy with weapons that require no fees.

"Man, I spent all that CE, cr and time getting my 5* set so I could reach the end-game and fight Vana--but wow, this awesome reward sword makes it all worth it!"

Aye, pretty much. Is a bit anti-climatic. If it was some super-niche weapon that did an excellent job in one area (for example, if it was a weapon that was great at killing Vana, but sup-bar everywhere else) then I'd like the concept more as a reward. Right now I'd be pretty displeased if I wasn't aware of what FoV was capable of before I got mine.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 22:34

#25

Dead-Bard

Well, I for one don't have a

Well, I for one don't have a single weapon of the brandish line and the FOV came in as a good and cheap replacement for them, there will always be weaker and stronger weapons in a game, and all I'm saying is that, considering its accessiblity, FoV doesn't need to be rebalanced as much as other weapons do.

Sat, 10/27/2012 - 23:48

#26

Darkbrady

Way to word what I couldn't.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 01:00

#27

Derpules

@Darkbrady

"you do still need to craft them up beyond that if you hope to keep using them, whereas the FoV is automatically finalised for you"

As I mentioned, that's merely appropriate to the facts that:

1) The FoV costs twice as many tokens,
2) The FoV's tokens come from a T3 and not a T2 boss, and
3) The player will almost certainly already be 5* when receiving the FoV, so that the FoV is an addition and not a replacement/shortcut.

The disparity between a 3* weap that has to be crafted up and a 5* weap that comes ready to go is supposed to be justified by the increased difficulty of obtaining the later. That is why the Polaris doesn't need to be superior to the DA, despite the fact that you get to skip one crafting step when making the DA. (JK was meant to be harder than Twins, and probably really is for most new players.)

I do agree that the FoV's "free" status makes balancing it less urgent than, say, balancing the Deconstructor line, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 02:07

#28

Darkbrady

I do agree that the FoV's

I do agree that the FoV's "free" status makes balancing it less urgent than, say, balancing the Deconstructor line, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Guess that's really just what it comes down to~

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 03:50

#29

Thunderbog

FOV wa tsuyoi yo!

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 04:13

#30

Blandaxt

well

fov is a good weapon and i got it only with my 4 star set cause i have good 5 star friends who run with me, my only concern for which isn't urgent at all is that its charge attack is just a copy of leviathan blade with fire added to it. its not original, nor unique.

the plus to this is that it makes it easy to use for all players, the minus to this is that its suppose to be a unique weapon base on its name and the fact that its a boss weapon.

when i first got my first antigua or sealed sword, i was amazed by the unique charge of sealed sword and the speed and usefullness of the antigua. fov when i first saw it as a 3 star player was amazed by the fire flame, but now that i have finally obtained it, i saw it as a cheap copy of the charge of the leviathan. just like the iron cold vanquisher's charge is also a small variation of the leviathan, and the Scissor Blades . but both are still just copies of the leviathan.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 04:32

#31

Darkbrady

Actually, FoV is the most

Actually, FoV is the most unique sword in the game. It's the only three-swing heavy sword and it can inflict its strong status with high likelihood on any one of its attacks.

Just sayin'~

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 10:53

#32

Addisond

lol, what? I had enough toks to buy a FoV when I was fully 4*. If it worked this way, I would plan around it and use piercing and shadow swords for FSC. Or if I were a gunner hybrid I could get a free sword with zero planning.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 12:41

#33

Blandaxt

yet

yet its charge is so similar to leviatha and those other swords that i mentioned in the post # 30. i did not know it was a heavy sword and its effect to cause fire is unique, but the charge in itself is just a copy.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 14:00

#34

Darkbrady

You expect every single

You expect every single weapon in the game to have unique charges? The FoV is more unique than most swords, but you're hung up on the charge animation?

What's to say they didnae make the FoV first and the Leviathan is just a copy? Who really cares? FoV is still a one-of-a-kind sword, so is sufficiently trophy-esque as is.

Sun, 10/28/2012 - 21:14

#35

Qwez

._.

I'd like to point out this crucial point you guys missed.

The point:
Fang of Vog: Longest sword reach.
Combuster: Normal sword reach. (as with Caliburs, Brandishes, etc.)

I am saddened that you guys only use FoV for the charge attack.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 00:57

#36

Derpules

@Addisond

"I had enough toks to buy a FoV when I was fully 4*. If it worked this way, I would plan around it and use piercing and shadow swords for FSC. Or if I were a gunner hybrid I could get a free sword with zero planning."

Sounds just fine to me.

Someone willing to implement such a long-term plan--which brings with it fairly inconvenient restrictions--should be reward for his/her foresight, patience, and strategic thinking.

As for a gunner picking up a good sword for free, great! Hybridisation should be encouraged.

I guess this brings me to a fairly basic question: what's wrong with players getting a great weapon for "free"? What's the downside? So they save on a 5* sword, if they're willing to really plan ahead, or they get a powerful bonus toy to play with if they're not a sword-user. These are arguments against buffing FoV. . . why, exactly?

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 06:37

#37

Darkbrady

Personally, I still think FoV

Personally, I still think FoV is a great weapon for free. S'not the best weapon, but it's still great. S'only marginally worse off than a brandish, and that's before you take into account the perpetual fire spread and the world es'plodin' charge.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 07:10

#38

Autofire

I WANT A CUTTER TYPE FIRE SWORD!!!!

YESYESYESYESYESYEYSYEYSEYSEYSE

<<----Wishes that there was a fire-type cutter weapon because he loves cutters.

Lol, umm, the rest of the buffs discussed here can go die. :P

Look, I almost never get caught on fire when I use the charge. I've spammed it at a point in a graveyard, and I only got burned once. How? I have a volcanic salamander helm and a dragon scale mail, which has a fire low UV. Even when I did catch fire, it went out in 3 seconds and did only one tick of damage. (For about 2 bars of damage) I know that other people could achieve higher resistance, so you can override the fire altogether if you try.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 07:54

#39

Darkbrady

Out of interest, Auto: To

Out of interest, Auto:

To become immune to "minor" statuses, you need a full bar of resistance (on your overlay stats) which is...say, Divine Veil with shock:max, would make you immune to VT but not Voltedge. Even moderate statuses still have an affect after that (such as from the Drivers), so to actually be immune to a strong status...would probably need full vog with fire:max UVs...and maybe trinkies? Who knows...has anyone here managed to get immunity to strong statuses?

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 08:00

#40

Derpules

@Darkbrady

There are really two separate issues here.

1) Should a "free" weapon be worse than other weapons?

2) Is this particular weapon actually worse than other weapons?

I feel like we keep switching between the two issues indiscriminately. Let's keep them straight.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 09:19

#41

Darkbrady

Well we are a bit messy about

Well we are a bit messy about it, but I feel the point has been made and...mostly agreed upon.

1/ Yes, a free weapon should always be worse than others. Not neccessarily "the worst" but it should by no means be da' best. FoV has enough flaws to prevent it from being the best weapon in the game.

2/ Worse than..."other"? It's worse than the best, better than the worst. I think that's a nice landing spot for a free weapon.

Now, I do agree with your earlier posts that considering it's an endgame final boss weapon, it's a bit anticlimatic, free or otherwise, but if we ignore the fact that it comes from Vana and just look at it as a free weapon, I think it's placed quite well in the weapon food chain. I know that's no excuse for it to be the way it is, but after a certain stage, farming Vana for tokens is no different than farming Snarby, so it may sting a bit at first to have your endgame weapon be unimpressive, but in the grand scheme of things it works out....enough.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 15:58

#42

Addisond

Hybridization should be encouraged by removing bonus armors, not free handouts. It would be fine to have players forced to get one weapon alongside another, as with OCH, or to give out weapons that let players get a feel for a weapon type before investing, but just handing people free, top-of-the-line equipment isn't fair to anyone who bought their gear, and it also screws with the economic system and game progression. I don't feel that the amount of time spent in planning on a FoV would really be that significant - it'd take just a little bit of wiki-reading to find this out, or someone you knew could tell you how to do so. The restrictions of only carrying two swords aren't THAT troublesome - a shadow sword will work well for all t2 bosses and with a toothpick beside it you can hit everything at least decently well. Sure, it'd be more convenient to use an elemental sword for FSC, but if you're in the right guild or have friends who are already in the endgame they'd be able to carry you through the difficulties.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 17:42

#43

Derpules

Okay, let's set aside issue 2 for the moment.

I'm an FoV fan myself, and there's an argument to be made that even if it's just a charge vehicle, that's good enough. Fine. (I personally think every weapon should be balanced such that you can use *only* the charge or *only* the normals and still have it be worthwhile, but I know that's contentious.)

But let's tackle issue 1. Why do you say a "free" weapon should necessarily be worse (at least in the sense of being not the best)? What would be wrong with a "free" weapon being one of the best in the game? I think this has not been explicitly argued and supported.

@Addisond: "It would be fine to have players forced to get one weapon alongside another, as with OCH"

Eh? If you get OCH, you can just get a friend to drag you through T3 and get the WRH for free. That sword could certainly replace all other ele swords--why aren't you complaining about it?

"just handing people free, top-of-the-line equipment isn't fair to anyone who bought their gear"

It's an item you get for defeating the final boss of the game multiple times. It's hardly a handout.

Let's remember that what's routine for us (i.e. active hardcore players) is actually a long and epic struggle for the majority of players.

Plus, those players who bought their ele swords? They'd get the FoV too.

"it also screws with the economic system and game progression"

Please elaborate.

"The restrictions of only carrying two swords aren't THAT troublesome - a shadow sword will work well for all t2 bosses and with a toothpick beside it you can hit everything at least decently well."

Giving up the most relevant bonus against one of the two T2 boss runs, not to mention FSC, is a hell of an inconvenience in my books.

Note: inconvenience. No one claimed it was an impossible obstacle.

Mon, 10/29/2012 - 22:20

#44

Tsubasa-No-Me

"Think Troika lines; big risk, big damage....but bigger!"
Yeah, Um.... The normal attacks are useless, But the Risk in using a Troika Charge far outweighs the Reward. If you really wanna make the Troika lines be a Charge only sword, that charge needs to be fixed, and buffed. If not, Fix that Darn "No stun on normal 2nd swing" and make that SLOWEST SPEED IN THE GAME worth while.

Troikas just don't have it right now.

And as to "Fang of Vog: Longest sword reach. Combuster: Normal sword reach. (as with Caliburs, Brandishes, etc.)"

Erm, You are wrong, I'm afraid. I just tested in the Training hall, and no, they have the same range, from every angle. I can post a Video if you want, but that is not true. Sorry.

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 02:18

#45

Xxpapaya

*sing song voice* The papaya simply comments =)

I actually agree with the suggestion. To be honest I'm pretty sure my Blazebrand (its 4* for those of you who are kinda new) could easily rival the FoV when it comes to things like usefulness in battle, maybe even damage. And the be honest, when logic is applied (which doesn't really exist in video games :P ) I think swinging a sword made out of bone (according to the description, the FoV is made of the fang of Vog, well, the name really gives it away XD) would be much easier than swinging a sword made out of various metals and has a bunch of mechanics............

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 04:30

#46

Darkbrady

@Derpules: You've got me

@Derpules:
You've got me hitting a word-choice wall here, I'm not xactly sure how to explain it; I just generally take it for red that a games best weaponss are almost exclusively "not free" by any means, especially so in MMOs, where your time and effort is the currency for competitive weapons.

@Tsubasa:
I only meant it as an analogy to get the point across. Although I do feel the Suda charge is absolutely badass, although I usually use it after I've dropped down a vortex or shiver~

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 21:52

#47

Qwez

@Tsubasa - My tests I did on FoV vs other swords

Testing regimen No.1:

Procedure:

Stand with back to the left wall in the top right sector of ATH that has the lone crawler bot
Set attack angle to "East"
Do 2 attack combos to hit the crawler bot
Repeat the first 3 steps
Repeat with other swords* in place of FoV

Data:

Fang of Vog: 100% hit rate on the lone crawler bot
Other swords: Occasional hit on the lone crawler bot

Testing regimen No.2: (This test is to check a slightly* further distance with FoV vs other swords*)

Procedure:

Stand slightly* past the same left wall in the top right sector of ATH that has the lone crawler bot
Set attack angle to "East"
Do 2 attack combos with FoV
Repeat multiple times at as close as possible of a location until results are satisfactory
Repeat with other swords* in place of FoV

Data:

Fang of Vog: nearly 100% hit rate
Other swords: nearly 0% hit rate

Account for deviation in location:

Fang of Vog: 100% hit rate
Other swords: 0% hit rate

*Definition of "slightly": within 1 block distance
*Assumption: OOO is too lazy to differentiate hit range between 5* brandishes, levi, cautery sword, silent nightblade, proto sword
-Details on "Other swords" tests: I completed cautery sword, silent nightblade, proto sword, brandish, shockburst brandish; Friend completed levi
-Minimum trials done per sword per regimen: 3 (for the weaker swords)

Conclusion: I did not document my tests as I went along, so my data is not as precise as it could be. However, my data had such clear contrast, that my lack of documentation of data does not matter. I did many tests, and I really do feel that FoV has greater range. FoV has longer range than all other swords with similarly looking attack combo pattern.

Note: I noticed a negligible or no difference in attack range with the first strike [between other swords and FoV].
Note: FoV range is most noticeable on the 3rd strike.

===If you feel my tests are inaccurately done (because they kinda are), you are welcome to do them yourselves===
(I hope someone is happy I tried to use some tag stuff ._.)

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 22:15

#48

Severage

...

I mostly agree with the OP.

Not sure if I'd like the FoV to be another DVS/WHB, but it certainly is not as good as the Combuster overall.

The FoV's only advantage is how it kills the Slag Guardians on Vanaduke, since they can both be lit on fire (which happens a lot in FoV charges) and are weak to elemental.

But in the rest of FSC the Combuster is easily better, doing easier AoE damage over long distances, and it's not useless on Slag Guardians in the slightest either.

In contrast, the FoV is a "free" 5* item, which imo, is why all the Almirian free gear is lackluster. It doesn't contribute to the ordinary 1500 CE necessary to make a 5* item. 13 runs, on average, is what it takes to get it. That's a few, but you're not really "losing" money to get it, except the 10K (I think it's 10K) you could have vendor'd it for.

It's highly likely it was OOO's intention to make it weaker than comparable 5* elemental weapons.

~Sev

Tue, 10/30/2012 - 22:31

#49

Darkbrady

except the 10K (I think it's

except the 10K (I think it's 10K)

30k for 5* items, 10k is for 4*~

Wed, 10/31/2012 - 07:54

#50

Derpules

@Qwez

Okay, if you're right, there is a difference in range. But how much? 1/2 a block? 1/3 of a block? 1/10? Your data does not actually tell us whether the advantage is at all meaningful.

Also, earlier you claimed FoV had "the longest sword reach", not merely a longer sword reach. Did you compare it to Flourishes or two-swing swords? Doesn't sound like it.

@Darkbrady: Heh, 13 runs (by Severage's calculation) sounds like a fair bit of time and effort to me.

And I'd like to reiterate my point that FoV can only be attained *instead of*--rather than *in addition to*--other weapons if you really plan ahead, have assistance, and put yourself through considerable inconvenience along the way. It would be a complement, not a replacement, so its being free is not a problem from a balance perspective.

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Fang of Vog - Useless and weak