Spiral Knights - Good enough for a pure gunner?

Good enough for a pure gunner?

43 replies [Last post]

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 02:38

Kuruga

Ok,so i make a gunner yesterday and i decide to go with this:
Please stat why you choose yes or no and if no state the gun that can replace the following.

Gun:
AP(argent peacemaker)-(yes/no).
Sentenza-(yes/no).
Blitz needle-(yes/no).
Storm Driver-(yes/no).

Gunning set.
Shadowsun Setson-(yes/no).
Shadowsun Slicker-(yes/no).

Trinket for gunning set:
Elite Quick draw module-(yes/no).
Elite trueshot module-(yes/no).

Bomb:
Shivermist buster-(yes/no).
Voltaic Tempest-(yes/no).
Electron Vortex-(yes/no).
Nitronome-(yes/no).

Bomber set.
Mad bomber mask-(yes/no).
Mad bomber suit-(yes/no)

Trinket for bomber set:
Elite bomb focus module-(yes/no).
Elite bomb module-(yes/no).

Shield:
Swiftstrike.

So any suggestion/recommendation is welcome. :)
And i feel like i lack of something.

Edit:Sorry,i know i forgot to add something. >.>"

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 02:44

Darkbrady

You've not listed shields,

You've not listed shields, which matter for gunner if you plan on using Swifty.
Also, for your bomber loadout you don't need a bomb focus mod; w/ +10 bombs you'll have max:max. Also might want to bring either a sidearm or a dps bomb w/ you, unless you plan on being full support or running a vortex build, in which case you'd want to replace shiver w/ VV and/or AoA.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 02:54

Kuruga

Edit;I know i forgot to add something very important.

Thanks for the reply x),sorry though i forgot to add my favourite bomb-nitronome.

So the gunner set up is ok enough?

About the replacing shivermist,why?
I like the freezing and it save me lot's of time and i rarely gonna use it on vana unless fsc zombie,trojan.

What i'm trying to be is a hybrid combination.
I want to dps using gun while i can support friends,guild mates or stranger with my bombs.
And yes player often kick me even on snarby run because i'm using a huge knockback bomb xD.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 03:15

Darkbrady

i said only to replace the

i said only to replace the shiver if you were planning on being a vortex-dps bomber. Shiver isn't conductive to Nirto or Vortexes, whereas VV/AoA are much more so.

The gunner setup is fine; consider a Swifty as a shield. altough, if you have access to OCH, the Seerus mask gives you +2/+1 bonuses instead of just +2, which increases your overall stats. This is especially useful for your blitz, which you'll want at vh/max CTR for optimal spamming.

Hybrid loadouts work fine as a gunner/bomber. Gun damage set and a couple of bomb CTR trinkies to max your bomb CTR; focus bombs on vortexes/hazes (so you won't need bomb damage) then you can focus your armour/shield on improving your guns so that they keep up in terms of asi/dmg.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 03:30

Flowchart

If you're using swiftstrike you don't need a quick draw module, you might want gun focus or if you can get that Perfect Mask of Seerus, another elite trueshot.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 05:16

Fradow

Opinion

Most have already been said, I'll emphasize a few points.

First, be careful to not have too much bonus of any kind : you can't go over Max. Read the wiki page for more informations.

You said only gunner in your introduction, but I'm going to assume you want both gunner and bomber. So here it is :

Gun:
AP(argent peacemaker) yes/no : yes if you use it as a side-arm while bomber, no as a main gun. Storm Driver is better as a main gun.
Sentenza yes/no : yes if you use it as a side-arm while bomber, no as a main gun. Get Umbra Driver for a main gun.
Blitz needle yes
Storm Driver yes

Gunning set.
Shadowsun Setson yes/no : no if you have access to OCH, get a Perfect Mask of Seerus instead. Yes if you don't have access to OCH
Shadowsun Slicker yes

Trinket for gunning set:
Elite Quick draw module yes/no : yes if you use double shadowsun, no if you get a Seerus : in that case take double trueshot
Elite trueshot module yes

Bomb:
Shivermist buster yes, but don't use it blindly. Shines in Vanaduke or with unexperienced friends, not with veterans.
Voltaic Tempest yes
Electron Vortex yes/no : shouldn't be a high priority. It's cool, but there are better things to do first. Situational
Nitronome yes/no : yes if you use it solo/with friends, no if you play with unprepaired party : in that case, take DBB instead, or something else for resistant target (DR if you have OCH, else haze or vortex)

To add : Ash of Agni makes a perfect combo with Voltaic Tempest outside of fire-resistant strata. Stagger Storm is great for LD and unexperienced friends.

Bomber set.
Mad bomber mask yes/no : depending on how experienced you are, you may want to take Volcanic demo for the fire resistant to be less squishy in FSC.
Mad bomber suit yes/no : same as mask. You can mix 1 Mad Bomber and 1 Volcanic for optimal results (allows you to cap everything for bomb with 2 trinkets)

Trinket for bomber set:
Elite bomb focus module no : 2 bomber parts + lvl 10 bombs = CTR : Max already. Unless you run with only one bomber part.
Elite bomb module yes/no : depends on what bombs you use. Haze and vortex bombs benefits very little from DMG.

Shield:
Swiftstrike yes, but you will probably want to expand to have more defensive shields, unless you are a ninja dodging master.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 06:22

Lukehandkooler

*i said only to replace the

i said only to replace the shiver if you were planning on being a vortex-dps bomber. Shiver isn't conductive to Nirto or Vortexes, whereas VV/AoA are much more so.

What Darkbrady said. The swirling caused by the vortex creates chances for things like the Phonex/Owl from sentenza/AP and other's sword charges to hit the swirling monsters multiple times by swinging them thru the charge attack more than once. It also creates a wonderful environment for the RnG slotmachine alchemer charged shot.

~Luke

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 13:19

Atacii

...

Only use antiguas as a gunner if you really don't like alchemers.

Charge spamming is always better if you can manage it.

If I were to have only one gunning load out, it would be Nova/Umbra/Blitz + Mask/Shadowsun/Swiftstrike + Focus/Trueshot.

Focusing on ASI instead of CTR and swap shooting is still a good use of elemental/shadow weapons, and often safer than charge spamming, but you will miss the CTR in situations where you can effectively use the Blitz charge.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 17:47

Kuruga

Thanks all.

Thanks everyone for the input but

@Fradow,thank you so much :D,but question for you.
Isn't ap had more dps than a storm driver when both get damage bonus max?
@Luke,Thanks ^^).
@Atacii,i usually go for a faster dps weapon.
But why nova?o.O

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 18:57

Darkbrady

Isn't ap had more dps than a

Isn't ap had more dps than a storm driver when both get damage bonus max?

If you're unleashing just AP against a single storm driver w/o double-switching, then yes. Also assuming you shock never/rarely, as that factors for more than dps.
Double-switching or alch-switching, however, demolishes APs dps rates.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 23:26

#10

Atacii

...

Even ignoring charge attacks and swap shooting, AP only has higher dps when you assume no( or very few) ricochets land. Since you can always "clip" single targets, that's a pretty lousy assumption, no matter the situation.

And there's nothing wrong with nova. In fact, I think Storm is overrated for PVE. I don't use it unless I expect Kats. Nova does better damage, aoe or otherwise, and Hail offers superior crowd control.

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 23:44

#11

Darkbrady

Nova does better damage, aoe

Nova does better damage, aoe or otherwise, and Hail offers superior crowd control.

Just a few utterly random and unrelated facts:

A single shock tick negates that damage increase from Nova.
Shock will tick several times.
A single shock tick that hits a nearby enemy means that Storm just outdamaged Nova.
A single shock tick that stopped an enemy from landing a hit on you means that Storm just became more useful than Nova.
Ricochets can cause shock too, which increase the chance of landing the status, especially on charge attacks.
Even if no shocks are inflicted, 90% of enemies can be killed in the same number of shots from Nova and Storm.

Want me to talk about Magma?

Thu, 11/15/2012 - 23:57

#12

Fradow

Data analysis

Sorry, but those last assumptions are false. Yes, alchemers win on every possible way. I guess I should have included the link to the maths : http://forums.spiralknights.com/fr/node/68183 here it is. I compared to a Nova because other alchemers didn't had available data on the wiki and I don't have any personally.

If you just read the numbers, keep in mind I HEAVILY skewed the numbers toward AP to prove my point (I always skew toward the one which I think is worst).

To sum up the conclusions of the data while answering to your interrogations/facts :
- any alchemer have better dps than AP. Especially once you reach DB:max since AP loose the undead bonus (you can't go over max), and I did the comparison with AP having this edge (that's a big skew toward AP from a gunner point of view, normal for a swordsman/bomber point of view)
- yup, that is without doing any fancy thing like double-switching/ switching or shoot-pause, just unloading your clip. It has been proven long ago that with sufficient ASI, shoot-pause is actually detrimental to your dps. There is no data on switching I am aware of, I would love some, though it depends of player skill/lag and may be harder to accurately model
- yup, that's also assuming no ricochet land (skew toward AP again). Well, it also assumes AP don't get any double hit (possible when hitting in the middle of 2 enemies. Pretty situational though since enemies need a specific placement)

There was a study long ago of Fire vs Nova, but I don't remember the result exactly. I think the difference was minimal. Accurately modeling the damage of fire is hard because it may not be used at its full extent, especially in a full party. Shock is even worse to model.

P.S. : keep in mind that while the data is absolute, the choice is yours to make. AP is VERY easy to use, and that may well be a deciding factor. After all, that is the deciding factor for most swordsman to use it as a side-arm.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 00:33

#13

Darkbrady

I think the difference was

I think the difference was minimal.

That's really the point I'm making. People get caught up in the "15% more damage omgah!" thing and immediately assume the pure damage guns are "stronger", but the base damage is too low and fast-paced for that percentage to make any real difference when compared against the statuses that cause damage and balance it, not to mention the practical effects of interrupting/damaging status spread across the field. I'd never recommend Nova to anyone as I cannot see it being worth it. The only reason to go for Umbra is because it's a Shadow type, and even then I'd happily trade off that "extra damage" for a status effect instead.

shoot-pause is actually detrimental to your dps
Should try that out at some point; I never really ran with only the one alchemer to really try that out one way or the other. Although curious to see how this'd affect LD~

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 01:12

#14

Kuruga

I see now. x)

Ah,i see so alchemer had way better damage than ap.
@Fradow,aha xD thank for fixing it.So alchemer line need pratice to use correctly?x) I kinda hate the two hit shot..and when talking about the speed an ap had way faster reloading and fire rate while an alchemer is quite slow even with ASI max which i currently had it on my armor.
@Atacii,so supernova is the only normal gun that i should get instead of blaster path?
@Darkbrady,hm..from your explanation so umbra had better dps than a sen?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 01:21

#15

Darkbrady

Umbra vs Sent is the exact

Umbra vs Sent is the exact same discussion as AP vs [Nova/Alch]. That is to say, Umbra wins.

Also, Supernova isn't a preferable normal gun. Polaris deals shock and more damage than it's normal counterpart, even against neutral enemies, so there's virtually no reason to get it unless you plan on using it against wolvers or gremlins; keeping in mind that that type of gun is highly suited against such things~

The blaster lines are actually pretty good to get, for gunner or otherwise, and probably one of the better "normal" type guns to be getting.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 01:37

#16

Atacii

...

/sigh

A single shock tick almost negates the damage increase on nova only if the player has no damage bonus. Which is ridiculous, but let's go with that anyways.

The proc rate on storm is around 20%, which means that shock has to tick about five times to match nova's damage. Expecting shock to tick that many times requires that...

...the shock did not occur on the killing blow.

...the shocked enemy is directly next to one or more enemies, as shock only ticks 2~4 times.

...you do not kill the shocked enemy for the full 4~7 seconds it takes for shock to potentially reach five ticks.

...your teammates do not kill the shocked enemy for the full 4~7 seconds it takes for shock to potentially reach five ticks.

...the enemy isn't already shocked. After all, who spams voltedge charge attacks or polaris?

The proc rate and duration of shock numbers could be more accurate, but I don't think it's off by enough to invalidate my point. And with damage max, shock needs to tick seven or eight times to surpass the damage of nova.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 01:38

#17

Fradow

Status vs Damage

I myself prefer the Nova Driver. A few considerations on why :
- I don't want Hail Driver. The freeze doesn't do any direct damage and I don't like freeze in most places in the first place. If I need reliable freeze, I'll take a Shiver, thanks.
- Firotech doesn't "work" in FSC, which is going to be a big part of my playtime
- Stormy is ok ... Actually it's in my plans to make one for alch-switching and perhaps PvP but ....
- I don't like random chances. Sometimes it isn't going to proc, sometime it is going to proc twice, sometimes it is going to proc only just before I kill the mob .... screw that, I prefer to have one solid less shot in a few situations.

For the shoot-pause thing, I'm too lazy to find the original thread with maths. There was an ASI threeshold above which yes, you shouldn't shoot-pause.

Last but not least, yes Kuruga, the alchemer line requires some practice to use :
- you don't want to get caught in the reloading animation when you have to shield/dodge
- you'll probably have to master alch-switching or shoot pause (this one is in fact used to don't get caught in the reloading animation in the first place)
- each bullet contributes a lot in the dps. You shouldn't miss any (or at least very few).
- ricochet are hard to get in reliably, you'll especially want to try to learn how to place inside ricochet (which means the ricochet is done inside the original target, which doubles the damage : easier on bigger targets)
- don't forget the charge, which is very good!

P.S. : the question is not for me, but I'd not get any normal gun. The supernova is, in my opinion, outclassed by Polaris. On the other hand, the blaster line have a unique feature that can make it useful. Also, in every case you can replace "Nova" by "Umbra" and "AP" by "Sentenza". Those guns are the same save the different damage type.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 02:00

#18

Darkbrady

The proc rate on storm is

The proc rate on storm is around 20%, which means that shock has to tick about five times to match nova's damage. Expecting shock to tick that many times requires that...

That's assuming that the shock only ticks once. Since shock ticks 2~5 times and it has a 1/5 chance of procing, that actually balances off fairly nicely; shock them once, then the ticks can cover your lost damage for the next few shots!

You're right about it being less meaningful if the shock procs later, but that doesn't change the key point:

Even if no shocks are inflicted, 90% of enemies can be killed in the same number of shots from Nova and Storm.

The damage difference just isn't enough to...matter. Even without the shock ever landing, you won't notice any difference in your kill/run speed.

However, introduce even a damage-free shock into the equation and the results would affect your gameplay; you'd be safer, enemies would attack less, they'd spasm onto each other, etc. The fact that the ticks cancel out the Novas damage only serves to make the Stormy the superior choice, especially when you go to LD and realise you need an alchemer.

Hail, I agree, is pretty much a LD gun. Its use in CW is pretty limited to when you need something specific frozen, and when you're panicking and dying and need to run away from something. Freeze helps as a saving status, but does little to serve your overall dps. However, as stated above w/ the shots per kill thing, I don't see Hail as actually being a worse choice for kills, and will even occasionally serve to interrupt your target while you shoot it.

Magma being unpopular I get from a strictly FSC perspective, as you might as well just be using storm/hail there since the fire has no benefit outside the damage, however outside of FSC, Magma is just a total beast. Damage is crazy; on T3, Fire is capable of doing about half as much damage as the alchemer itself!

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 13:43

#19

Mohandar

muahaha.

I laugh in ze general direction of any gunner who thinks AP/Sent can out-DPS alchemers. They are fun, easy to use guns, but completely lacking in raw power. That said, the former argument is more than reason enough for you to go craft a set, so I would not belittle your decision to use them.

Strictly charge spamming alchemers is less effective than switch-shooting, but one should never limit oneself to a single option. Alchemers can be switch-fired AND charged, and you should take full advantage of that. Charge up to OHKO a turret, and transition seamlessly into switch-gunning to mop up those scuttles. Switch-gun to decimate a crowd of jellies, and then charge up to get a OHKO on a turret in the next wave of enemies. If you don't use both, you're not using your Alchemer to its full potential.

I run Storm/Magma/Umbra, picking whichever two are most appropriate for the situation, followed by a support bomb (usually Venom Veiler or Ash of Agni). I'm hoping to add Nova and Hail to the lineup, but am still looking for a good UV. In PvE, CTR tends to be more helpful, as it lets you used the devastating charged shot more easily. In PvE, ASI is king. Work toward the UVs appropriate to your preferred goal. Like Brady, my preference is Magma Driver in PvE because the Moderate fire makes it effective even against enemies like Wolvers, because they do not resist the fire damage. If you switch-gun, the proc rate on the status alchemers is extremely high. Basically, when I run Storm/Magma in a neutral Undead/Construct level, most enemies will be shocked and on fire if they are still alive after a barrage.

The only time gunning may be a disadvantage is when partying with swordies against Mechaknights; that is why I try to keep a bomb on hand. At this point I can safely say I probably out-DPS many swordies, but it is more fun when the party works together as a team. Guns are also less effective against Wolvers and Devilites; these enemies are especially hard for novice gunners because there are not easy to use weapons. However, as your skill level goes up you will find that even these can be taken down with ease using Blitz or Callahan.

The offensively oriented gunner will want full Shadowsun, Swiftstrike Buckler and a gun damage trinket, with the remaining trinket slot reserved for a gun ASI, CTR or even bomb CTR trinket as the occasion demands. Your primary armament will be alchemers, with Callahan and/or Blitz as a backup.
A more defensive approach would be to get one piece of Shadowsun, and the complementary pieces of the Justifier and Nameless set. This gives you defensive coverage against all damage types, and a good mix of offensive bonuses. As with the previous loadout, get a damage module and fill the second slot as necessary. Swiftstrike is still the shield of choice, but if you cannot get by on its defense, you can sub in a level-appropriate shield like Skelly or Grey Owl. Personally, the ASI high provides more defense through mobility than any defensive shield.
If you don't want to switch-gun, sub in Antigua-line guns or just use the pause-shoot method. Emptying your clip is discouraged, as it prevents you from shielding (more importantly, shield-bumping) while your reload.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 14:52

#20

Atacii

...

When I included "nova" in my suggested loadout, I was referring to Nova Driver, not Supernova. Supernova should be one of the last guns you craft, if you craft one at all. The only good reason to make one is for Heart of Ice, but it is certainly not required for it.

My points concerning Storm Driver were mostly ignored, so I'll drop it.

I'm curious if anyone who's contributed to this thread actually owns a Hail Driver. And if not, and you're merely considering how effective the weapon is "on paper", why is it that thaw damage has been ignored? We have assumed the other statuses are allowed to take their full effect, why should freeze be any different? And if we take into account actual experience with the weapon, then doesn't Hail help line up more effective, consecutive charge attacks?

Strictly charge spamming alchemers is less effective than switch-shooting [...]

Um, charge spamming might be more dangerous, but with sufficient CTR I hardly think it less effective. How much CTR did you have?

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 15:05

#21

Fradow

Freeze is not effective :/

To answer to Atacii about why we mostly don't like Hail Driver :

- thaw damage is ignored because you'd have to let the mob unscathered to take effect. That's a big restriction, and will probably never happen in a party. Your own ricochets may well break the freeze too. Unless they are tons of mobs, if you wait for the freeze to finish, you are effectively gimping yourself. Other status don't have that drawbacks and will take effect whatever happens. The only "risk" is that another source is already there and it can't take effect, but it's not that frequent.

- as for the consecutive charge attacks, I don't imagine experienced gunners to have trouble lining up charge attacks in the first place. I don't use alchemers that often myself, but my friends who do almost never miss a charge, unless I knockback mobs a lot (even when I do they often land the charges ...)

- the freeze can hinder kiting, since mobs movement because less predictable (you can't know for sure if shots are going to freeze or not, and that cause a big difference in movements). Not really sure about that point, but it has been Bopp argument a long time ago.

- freeze is frowned upon by veterans because of its several drawbacks : some changes of mobs movement pattern (especially zombies and kats, which won't move anymore) and the inability to shield bump or knockback a mob.

- if you want some reliable source of freeze, take a Shiver in the first place.

As for the charge spamming, the Lancer Knightz data http://wiki.spiralknights.com/Lancer_Knightz_%28Guild%29/Handguns should have enough to make some educated guess about its effectiveness. I am too tired to do it today, perhaps tomorrow.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 16:16

#22

Darkbrady

@Atacii:My bad, I thought i

@Atacii:
My bad, I thought i was clear that I do own and use a Hail. I find its use to be very different on the field than it is on paper.
I wanted Stormy first because I saw the Freeze as being a mostly useless status; it's nice for an enemy to be frozen briefly and interrupt them from chasing/attacking, but not really worth losing out on the extra damage/shock/etc. To this end, I kept Hail for last.
However, even in CW, there are some situations where it'd handy. Sometimes you find something that just needs frozen; Hail is a fairly reliable method of doing so, and can even freeze multiple targets. Obv a Shiver out-does this, but you don't always have a bomb to hand. I also found that Hail is ideal for freezing Trojans when you have few other options, since you can hit them with ricochets while their shield is facing you.

But shy of that, Hail is really a pvp gun more than for CW. The freeze is an absolute godmode there; by far the most useful gun. Shock can help interrupt, but virtually nobody is immune to Mod.Freeze and being frozen often results in the death of the target, or at the very least, guarantees your safety for an escape or to wait for backup. Shocked targets can still escape/chase/kill; frozen targets can't do much of anything.

Um, charge spamming might be more dangerous, but with sufficient CTR I hardly think it less effective. How much CTR did you have?

This is something I've debated with myself over too. I have max CTR on all my guns, with my Seerus mask, and can easily have max ASI as well if I wish, with a combination of Gunner armour, Swifty etc, so have tested both.
I honestly find them situational or down to preference, as I can't decide which is faster or more effective. I'd need to do some solid studies to give a more conclusive answer, but for now:
Switching into crowds can be devastating if you target the middle/back enemies to spread that ricochet. It also seems far better for single target enemies. In crowds, the charge can just destroy groups and seems more capable of creating statuses, although restricts you to a single status, whereas switching can have the crowd shocked, frozen and/or on fire.

Personally, I tend to unleash charges when I'm more restricted for space and can sit in a corner blasting away, whereas any availability to move/kite/circle targets seems more natural for switching. I don't like switching while standing still, as the bullets don't do much to interrupt/KB targets, whereas the charge can stop a crowd in its tracks.

This, ofc, is my opinion of the two options.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 17:13

#23

Kuruga

@Mohandar,keep laughing at a

@Mohandar,keep laughing at a newbie gunner x).It just that as i said i prefer speed over damage.
@Atachii,next time make it clear ok x) you mess thing up lol i craft a radiant pulsar. >.>"

And keep it up guys :P,wonderful information.Help me a lot in building a gunner.

Fri, 11/16/2012 - 17:21

#24

Darkbrady

as i said i prefer speed over

as i said i prefer speed over damage.

Thanks to alch-switching, gunners actually get the ability to have their highest dps (ignoring Blitz charge spamming) come directly from the fastest form of attacking. Lucky gunners, eh? You don't need to pick speed or damage; you just get both!

Mon, 12/31/2012 - 23:37

#25

Fradow

Maths

Edited on 01/01/2013 thanks to Atacii pointing out there are 2 ricochets for each shot, not only one. Adding that as the ideal case, leaving "best case" as it is (because I'm lazy).

So charge vs normal shots, here are the maths on the dps. I decided I couldn't leave that subject alone.

First due to Lancer Knights missing data, I'm going to consider you have a CTR : V.H and ASI : Med, which are both a +2 on your armor/trinket (weapons get a CTR : Med by being level 10, it's only fair to have it free of charge) No bonus damage, since those are the numbers of the wiki. I am going to take Nova driver (no pesky status damage to include), numbers should be about the same for the other alchemers. Here is the data :
- 35 clips per minute. Each clip gets 2 bullets
- 21 charges per minute
- 220 damage per normal bullet
- 431 damage for the charge
- normal worst case is one bullet, best case is 2 bullets, ideal case is 3 bullets
- charge worst case is the charge only, best case is charge + 4 bullets, I'm going to also include, the middle, 2 bullets. Ideal case is charge + 12 bullets

With that, let's calculate all those 5 cases, all the end numbers are damage per minute :
- normal worst case is 35 * 220 * 2 = 15400
- normal best case is 35 * 220 * 2 * 2 = 30800. No surprise there
- normal ideal case is 35 * 220 * 2 * 3 = 46200.
- charge worst case is 431 * 21 = 9051. Doesn't look very good for the charge
- charge middle case is 431 * 21 + 220 * 2 * 21 = 18291. Hum, that's look very close to normal worst case
- charge best case is 431 * 21 + 220 * 4 * 21 = 27531. Not that far from normal best case.
- chase ideal case is 431 * 21 + 220 * 12 * 21 = 64491. Wow, that's through the roof.
- I'm also going to include charge + one bullet : 431 * 21 + 220 * 1 * 21 = 13671

To sum it up : if you are not going to succeed placing at least about 1,5 bullet from the charge, you are better off using the normal shots, dps-wise, even if you miss every ricochet. If you can place all the ricochets for both, the normal still win by 12%. But if each ricochets can land 2 times, the charge is the absolute best. I'd advise using it against big crowds, when you are almost sure everything will land.

Well, that's only theorical dps-wise. For real usage, you may want to consider all the above comments. Alch-switching is especially going to make a huge gap between charge and normal shots.

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 02:29

#26

Darkbrady

Good work there, Fradow~ It

Good work there, Fradow~

It is tricky to consider though, as the on-paper data is far from the practical applications of the very messy alchemers.

1/ I understand and agree with your choice of Nova for this test, but in the CW folk will often use the status ones which will certainly change overall dps and efficiency
2/ The charge attacks have a nice, wide ricochet spread that lets you nail an entire group via just charge bashing the middle, whereas shooting the middle with regular shots won't achieve as much, with only one, less reliable ricochet
3/ Relying on internal ricochets is ...well, unreliable
4/ Contrary to /3, a charge that lands all internal ricochets can easily just OHKO enemies where regular shots will take time
5/ Regular shots can miss or be dodged and reduce the overall dps, whereas charges tend to be less "spammy" and are thus aimed with more care

Ofc, I'm just pointing out some practical notes, just for the point that sometimes a situation encourages charges as a more practical option over the higher dps or vice versa. However, thank-you for taking the time to do that; I wasn't aware of just how extreme the difference seems to be. Doing this on runs I wouldn't have honestly noticed such a large gap in killtimes, and I alch-switch instead of just shooting regularly, so I clearly need to pay more attention!

The next thing to check out would be the alch-switching numbers. Once I can get back on, I'll try to a couple of tests and see how many alch-switched bullets can be fired in any given minute; this should keep close to in-game damage values considering there's no reload time to consider and, unlike swords, these can literally be fired endlessly in the CW w/o needing to stop, move, re-aim or be slowed by combos or shield cancelling.

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 02:58

#27

Fradow

Theoric is theoric

Hum Darkbrady, I specifically address that in my conclusion, I don't pretend it to be an accurate representation of practical uses.

1) I would bet that the damage part would be the same, minus a certain percent. Unfortunately the wiki don't have the data I use (last floor of T3 on weak target). The status is way too messy for me to even try to represent it. I'm not going to try to gather stats about it and model it.
2) yup, I addressed 6 use cases. Refers to the one that best represents your situation and draw your conclusion
3) I agree with that. But you can have ricochets on other mobs. Again, refers to the cases that represents your situation.
4) same as before. I agree with that. Charge is easy to make internal ricochets on big targets. Less on small ones, which represents the huge majority of mobs you are going to spend time against.
5) I decided against mixing in a percent of successful shots. It depends too much on the person. I find alchemers shot to be few enough for the gunner to take care of every shot, but that's personal opinion.

And yes, I did that to have some practical results to base your opinion on!

I'll try to gather alch-switching with a guildie or two when I have the occasion. Unfortunately I am not skilled enough with alchemers to do the testing myself. I'd be happy to compare the results. To be able to compare with the above maths, it would be great if you could test with ASI Med, though any other ASI is also appreciated. Data on alch-switching is lacking, as it is something recent it seems, never heard of it before my pause.

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 03:16

#28

Darkbrady

Och aye, don't get me wrong I

Och aye, don't get me wrong I wasn't trying to invalidate or disagree with you; you did as much as could be reasonably asked for an on-paper test; I just wanted to throw out the variables for the sake of full disclosure on the discussion is all, especially for any players lurking that may or may not know all the details or to-be gunners who aren't experienced with alchemers. Just trying to be thorough~ :)

(With 5/, I would agree that for your table you should assume every hit lands, I just wanted to point out that the faster you attack the more likely you are to start missing some bullets here and there. With alch-switching especially, you're firing so rapidly that you won't be able to prevent some bullets from just missing, or firing some shots off after an enemy died before you can re-aim to the next targets. Ofc, I also play around sometimes by just firing at walls and letting the ricochets nail the baddies, so I can be lazy and not need to aim :3 )

Anyhoo!

Thanks to Swifty and Seerus I can get a combination of gear that allows me every level of ASI to test alch-switching on. I won't be able to get back on until tomorrow but will clock up some tests and see what rough numbers I can come up with, and let you know. I can say that, from experience, the alch-switching is devastating in CW areas that are crowded, such as heavily mobbed areas of FSC; the ricochets and statuspread is absolutely chaotic!

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 12:18

#29

Fradow

Thanks Bohhty <3

I grabbed an experienced alchemer guildie, thanks Bohhty, and runned the tests with him.

The results are :
- about 35 clips per minute for normal shots, which is in line with Lancer knights data
- about the same for shoot-pause, perhaps a little less, which is in line with previous test I heard of
- about 88 bullets per minute using the alchemer switching trick, compared to the 70 of the other methods.

That's about 25% increase. To take again the previous case to have a good reference, here are the numbers :
- alchemer switching worst case is 88 * 220 = 19360
- alchemer switching best case is 88 * 220 * 2 = 38720

So, alchemer switching is better than charge with 2 bullets hitting, if you only get the principal bullet hitting. Otherwise, it obliterates everything else.

To give a comparison, Blitz have a 34320 damage per minute with CTR : vh against normal targets. (Obviously, on weak targets Blitz obliterates everything)

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 02:22

#30

Kuruga

How to perform alchemer

How to perform alchemer switching?
Shoot once then switch to another?

Btw any comment on biohazard?

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 02:38

#31

Fradow

Don't get Biohazard

Yes that's it, it's not really complicated, but you need at least 2 alchemers.

Biohazard is not very good, and not worth getting apart from the fun of using it.

Both Umbra and Sentenza are easier to use, and Umbra will probably have about or better dps (didn't make calculation, but the sheer slow bullets of Biohazard will make you miss so many bullets it's not worth getting anyway).

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 11:50

#32

Forum-Brady

it's not really

it's not really complicated,

Not complicated, but it is a timing game. You have to get into a good rhythm to use them effectively; you don't want to switch to slowly or there's no point doing it, but if you try to switch too fast you might wind up hitting the fire button before the switch animation finishes and wind up just firing a second bullet, starting the reload animation and killing the process. It gets especially tricky if your ASI changes often, as ASI greatly affects how efficiently you can alch-switch.

but you need at least 2 alchemers.

You can double-switch with a single alch (scroll down, then back up) but this is harder than alch-switching, as it requires you to switch very fast for it to be worth doing and, as above, switching too fast comes easily, in which case you might unload the full clip or attack with your other weapon. This is never recommended as it is harder and poses absolutely no benefit over alch-switching other than to save the need for two alchemers (in your loadout).

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 12:17

#33

Mohandar

Fradow: Thank you for

Fradow: Thank you for numerically confirming what I have suspected all along! If I have time I'll send you my switching stats as well.

A note on single-switching- you can actually do it with Callahan to great effect. I will try to post some numbers, but you can significantly improve the Callahan's rate of fire that way. It can also be done with Blitz, but the normal attack is so weak it is not really worth it.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 12:24

#34

Fradow

Yes, I can see how this can

Yes, I can see how this can be a timing problem. The gunner I based my recording on had that problem with high ASI, especially since he had to chain for periods of up to a minute (that's long). Then I made him switch to lower ASI, and the problem more or less disappear.

For the double switch, aren't you loosing a lot in switching time ?

Edit : yes Mohandar, thanks! Try to use the same ASI as stated before (Med) to make comparison easier. If you gather for more ASI values, all the better!

Edit 2 : Not sure we all agree on the vocabulary, is single switch when you switch between 2 alchemers and double switch when you switch to another weapon then back to the alchemer or the either way around?

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 12:46

#35

Forum-Brady

Alch-switching/single-switchi

Alch-switching/single-switching is when you shoot-switch-shoot-switch-shoot... (2 guns)
Double-switching is when you shoot-switch-switch back-shoot-switch-switch back... (1 gun)

Double-switching with alchs can be done at very similar speeds to alch switching. I believe you are a small amount slower but that, again, depends highly on ASI and your personal ability to switch without screwing it up.

I can get back on game now, so will jump into a lobby and throw up some tests.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 13:12

#36

Forum-Brady

These numbers are rough as I

These numbers are rough as I did them as a "safe" pace. I could have switched ever so slightly faster, but risked 2-shotting, and figured an accurate, reliable representation would be preferable over an optimum speed test that has a screwup halfway through.
These tests are done to 60 seconds on the clock, in the mission lobby. Presume lower numbers for active CW runs with aiming, monsters, shields etc.

mas ASI alch-switching: 100 shots
max ASI double-switching: 70 shots
[Note: small screwups were involved in this. Nothing that would have lengthily affected the test, but it was hard to avoid as doing this for a minute was physically exhausting, so I believe 80 is possible albeit challenging]

med ASI alch-switching: 70~80 shots
[Note: I'm too used to VH+ ASI and was going a bit too fast, so screwed up once or twice near the end]
med ASI double-switching: 70 shots

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 13:32

#37

Fradow

Maybe you could use a smaller

Maybe you could use a smaller timeframe to have less screw-ups (restart if there is a screw-up) ? I actually did the tests over 30 seconds and multiplied by 2, since a full minute is just way too long.

Anyhow, the penalty from double-switching seems high. 70 bullets per minute is about what you get by either emptying your clip or shoot-pause. It doesn't really seems worth the mental strain of properly doing it. Especially if you still have that at Max ASI, it's probably less than shoot-pause!

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 13:49

#38

Forum-Brady

Few things that factor in: 1/

Few things that factor in:

1/ I put that as a floor; I'm certain I could have got a higher figure; taking a smaller timeframe may aid this.
2/ It's easier to trigger a reload, I find, by shoot-pausing than it is by switching. This is especially crucial in LD when you want fire rate to be constant and don't want to have to "pause".
3/ I have said earlier that this method is generally not recommended, but it does have uses here and there.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 17:00

#39

Poopsie

....

Just fyi, charge on alchemer still have the biggest raw dps aside from that silly blitz needle. When your aim is good, ricochet could hit multiple of times or even without a single bullet missing. You could one-charge kill two zombies near each other (though let's just assume it's slim chance) but you never instantly kill monster with switching method. However, you could one-charge kill two zombies with blitz needle much more easier but I just love how the nova driver charge animation is shorter. What I usually do... charge spam when I see mobs. then I try to switch-method alchemer to finish up leftovers.
I would love to add friends to you guys in game so I can debate more if you guys don't mind. I usually use nova driver though I am not really good at it.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 17:12

#40

Forum-Brady

Onehitting a target is

Onehitting a target is possible, but with dps as a question it comes down to whether or not you could have already killed that target before you even finsihed charging.

In solo parties, it's entirely possible to kill targets before you've finished/unleashed a charge.

In group parties, you may be able to onehit that target, but then the question comes down to whether you'd have done more overall dps to the group than you would have before you'd managed to charge/unleash several charge shots.

Obv ASI vs CTR is a factor in this equation, but even assuming they're equal, alch-switching is just...very OP.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 19:07

#41

Mohandar

Maintaining switch-fire for

Maintaining switch-fire for long periods is very hard, especially at lower ASI values. I've listed runs at Max, VHigh and Medium ASI in 15-second bursts, with the calculated shots-per-minute in parentheses. Note that as long as we are considering theoretical values, the parenthesized values are indeed what would be theoretically achievable if one had perfect fine motor skills and lag/latency. However, in practice no one would be able to pull off a perfect 15+ second burst while in Clockworks (considering lag, dodging, etc), nor would you need or want to. One thing I noticed from this data is that while ASI has a modest effect on my maximum ability to output shots, the reliability of switching goes way up.

Max ASI: ~147 shots per minute (extrapolated average)
35/15 (140)
36/15 (144)
34/15 (136)
42/15 (168)
40/15 (160)
35/15 (140)
36/15 (144)

ASI VHigh ~135 shots per minute (extrapolated average)
38/15 (152)
30/15 (120)
33/15 (132)
31/15 (124)
35/15 (140)
36/15 (144)
34/15 (136)

ASI Medium ~120 shots per minute (extrapolated average)
30/15 (120)
29/15 (116
31/15 (124)
30/15 (120)

Of course, this doesn't take into account how people set up their controls- I have a hard time single-switching, for example. If these numbers seem high to you, send me a tell in-game and I'll demonstrate. :)

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 19:54

#42

Forum-Brady

Maintaining switch-fire for

Maintaining switch-fire for long periods is very hard, especially at lower ASI values.

Don't you mean especially at higher ASI? Lower ASI forces you to slow down, therefore is less exhausting. Higher ASI gets tiring very quickly. Unless you mean maintaining without screw-ups, which I agree I do find easier at higher ASI due to muscle memory and habit.

Getting over 100 shots does seem high to me, since I had trouble breaking 100 with max, however physical weariness does become a factor, especially at that speed, so I guess I could believe that the game would accept shots being fired that fast, although doing so (especially for a prolonged time) would be hard, considering that that would be on the very, very edge of triggering a reload; you'd need to be switching as fast as possible without firing even quarter of a second too soon lest you trigger it, which, for a human, I view as being far too risky to reasonably accept to be worth trying/doing, especially in LD situations where reloads get you killed.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 20:26

#43

Mohandar

I like to swap-shoot as fast

I like to swap-shoot as fast as possible; for every recorded 15-second run listed, there were probably half a dozen false starts. I'm sure it would be impossible for me to sustain that rate of fire for more than 30 seconds tops, if even; however, I listed those numbers as a theoretical maximum. I find high ASI much easier to work with, as it allows me to push the boundary of how fast I can switch (at lower ASI, going too fast makes me squeeze off the second shot).

Typically, I use this rate of fire in short 5-10 second bursts to clear out threats like turrets, and then drop down to a less tiring rate to mop up stragglers like scuttles. Most monsters wouldn't last that long against direct hits anyway, hence my willingness to push the limits. Likewise, in Clockworks levels random lag tends to throw a wrench in sustained firing. Another possibility is that some of the shots I counted may not be registering on the server, so I would love if you want to help count for me.

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