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Economics and the Guild Hall

9 replies [Last post]
Sat, 11/17/2012 - 12:12
Octavianrb's picture
Octavianrb

I know this has been discussed in other topics, but I thought I would give an economists perspective, and provide some practical solutions to what I see as simple, but potent issues.

First, The entire Guild Hall is a textbook example of the tragedy of the commons. The Tragedy of the commons means that when you give free access to a common resources, people have incentive to contribute little, use much, and the resource is exhausted quickly. The result is small short term gains for many, but huge long term losses for all. This problem is evident in the Mist well, treasury, and storage.

The Mist Well: The mist well has huge potential that it's not reaching. Energy drives the spiral economy in every way. The mist well has potential to not only create gains for all players, but also be the central binding unit of the guild hall rather than the mostly useless accessory it currently is. The solution to the tragedy of the Commons is simple: regulation. There have been many suggestions on how to regulate the well, but let me offer a few original suggestions.

First, allow guild masters to set the regulations, and grant other ranks the ability to regulate if they choose. Regulations of the well need to be a bit more than simply opening or closing the well, however, because this would potentially open the door for those that regulate the well to exploit their controls too much. I suggest implementing a smart well that keeps a tab for all players that contribute. Then, those who have the ability to regulate the well can choose what percentage of CE contributed by a player that player is able to withdraw.
For example, a regulator might choose that players are able to withdraw
50%
100%
120%
150%
Of what they contribute. So if the limit is set at 100%, a player that contributes 500 CE can withdraw 500 mist. at 120% a player that contributes 500 Ce can withdraw the full 600 mist. If the guild so chooses, then there should also be a free access option in which players can withdraw whatever they need regardless of how little they have contributed (the current setting).

Because I believe that sharing is caring, another option that could build off this idea of a smart well that keeps track of each players contributions is the ability to put others on your mist well tab, like you can with elevators. Lets say I contribute 500 CE to the well and withdrawals are regulated at 120%. I am allowed to withdraw 600 mist then. If I want to help a noob out who hasn't contributed anything, I can put him on my mist well tab and he can then withdraw the needed mist from my available 600.

A third and simple idea to help players keep track of what they have available to withdraw in the well is a mist well energy bar, like the current mist energy bar or CE counter. This bar would only be visible when in the guild hall. You could also have a open access record of everyones mist well tab in the central hud. That way, if I'm a poor little nub that needs help, I can look at the public tab, see that John Doe has 10,000 mist in the well, and ask if he can put me on his tab, which he could then do remotely by sending some sort of invitation or using a chat command like /tab.

The final idea, which I am apprehensive about because it could create classes within the guild, and therefore divide rather than unite it, is introducing wells that only certain ranks have access to. A veterans well, an officers, well, a members well, etc. Since I really believe that the mist well can be the center of guild activity and promote greater cooperation, maybe it would be a good idea to play around with the animations a bit. Maybe have one large well that can be accessed by all members in the center of the guild hall, and smaller wells in individual rooms that can only be accessed by GM's or veterans.

The Treasury: The treasury is a simple fix. Allow gms, or whatever rank GM's allow, to control who can buy things with treasury money, and, like the well, regulate how much they can spend based on what they contribute. Also allow GM's to put a lock, or floor, on spending. If, for example I always want to have 100k in the treasury because that's my upkeep, I can put a floor at 100k so that no one can buy anything that puts the treasury below that level.

Guild Storage: Right now there is little incentive to put anything other than materials in guild storage. My first suggestion is to allow GM's to regulate who can withdraw what. Simple solution to the free rider problem.

My next idea is a bit more creative and will take some toying with to figure out. To incentivize members to contribute high level weapons and armor to the storage, allow members to bind equipment to the guild. Here's how it would work.

Lets say I have a leviathan Blade. Since it's a terrible sword, I decide I don't need it and want to contribute it to the guild. Rather than putting it in and having someone run away with it forever, I can choose to bind it to the guild. Items that are bound to the guild can then be rented from storage by members for a certain amount of time, number of floors, or combination of both. We don't want this to completely undermine the incentive to craft, and therefore purchase CE though, so renting would cost a certain amount of energy. OOO's would have to do some math on their end to figure out what would be an acceptable fee to rent an item so that it doesn't undermine the economy, but this could potentially transform what is currently nothing more than material storage, into a full guild armory.

This may even create further incentive to craft. People may want to do more crafting than they would otherwise so that they can contribute weapons to the armory. It can also be a selling point on weapons. If I rent a weapons from the armory and really like it, I may decide to craft one for myself. More crafting=more CE purchases=a healthier economy for everyone.

Those are my thoughts, let me know what you think. Now hopefully OOO's reads some of these ideas and gets some good ideas!

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 14:55
#1
Severage's picture
Severage
...

Skipping the Mist Well idea.

If I understand it correctly, the Treasure already only allows Officers+ to purchase things? In most guilds, becoming an officer takes a little while. I'm not sure why any Officer would blatantly waste money in his Guild without contributing.

But having a floor would still not be a bad idea.

For the Guild Storage idea, I has it.

I don't really like the idea of being able to rent 5* items, no matter the CE cost. If a new player joins and rents some 5* items, he gets real nice and easy full clearance across the whole game. He could even borrow some CE from a friend, get T3 clearance, and leech FSC runs and end up making money. That's why in my Armory suggestion it is only used for testing.

~Sev

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 15:31
#2
Octavianrb's picture
Octavianrb
Yes I've read most of the

Yes I've read most of the posts on regulating mist wells. Most of them are too simplistic and would not properly utilize the wells capabilities. Retrieval limits based on guild rank is not a very good idea in my opinion because it discourages lower ranking members from using/contributing. Your rank in the guild has nothing to do with your mist/CE usage. Therefore, it makes much more sense to tie mist retrieval to contributions. Those that contribute more, receive more, regardless of rank. I think most people are on the right track with mist well regulation, but I've seen too many flaws in what I've read so far and that's why I posted my idea.

And yes, you would think that officers wouldn't waste money, but that's simply not how groups of people behave. Again, it just goes back to the tragedy of the commons.

Good point on the armory though. Its easy to fix the clearance problem though: the weapons required for clearance must be bound to you, rather than your guild. I'm not sure I like the idea of brand new players running around with 5* gear either though, even if it doesn't grant them clearance. Perhaps, we could limit the level of equipment you can rent to you prestige ranking? You must be a vanguard to rent 5* gear?

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 18:34
#3
Severage's picture
Severage
@Octavian:

I made the assumption 2* players wouldn't be GMs and recruits wouldn't be 5* players. Maybe not 100% accurate, but I don't see that as a radical assumption.

I do like your idea though - especially with the mist well tabs. It's a bit more dynamic and well-regulated.

I'm not sure I like the idea of people using 5* weapons that they didn't craft regardless to be completely honest. Sounds too easy for some 1337 players to get some newbies with full Cobalt (Whatever the 5* is called) right out of missions and create a KoA grinding guild out of recruits in minutes.

Of course, that would all depend on the price of renting the item, and whether or not they can perpetually rent out the same item. Furthermore, it would depend on how long the rental lasts based on how much it costs.

"And yes, you would think that officers wouldn't waste money, but that's simply not how groups of people behave. Again, it just goes back to the tragedy of the commons."

Well, what I mean is, they wouldn't because it's not in their best interest. Unless in whichever guild they're in is super easy to get Officer rank for whatever reason, they'd get kicked afterward, or get subpoenaed to pay the amount of crowns they wasted with the repercussion of being kicked if they didn't.

~Sev

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 20:34
#4
Octavianrb's picture
Octavianrb
That's true, you raise

That's true, you raise another good point about the armory. Maybe even just limit it to the training hall for testing of weapons? But then I wouldn't have much motivation to craft a 5* weapon just for a training hall...

As far as being irresponsible with treasury funds, I wish it always worked like that, and I'm sure it does often, but I think many people that play this game just don't understand the most basic principles of public finances. This is in large part because there are so many young players. I'm not saying have mandatory controls on the treasury, just give GM's the option.

On a somewhat related note, the central hub and guild record needs a big overhaul so that information is much more easily accessible. This would be especially necessary if you implemented something like a tab on the mist well or formal dues from guild members.

The basic point of all these thoughts is this: the guild hall update is great, but it needs regulations in almost every arena. The best way to do it is not by setting rigid regulations that are universally applicable to all guilds, but by giving guild masters tools to regulate their guild how they see fit. That way guilds can create their own atmosphere and use what works for them. That way all guilds can be more prosperous, diverse, and generally enjoyable.

Sat, 11/17/2012 - 22:08
#5
Tokinjen's picture
Tokinjen
My suggestion for the renting

My suggestion for the renting armory...

How about having an option to have a storage in the guild training hall and anyone who puts items into that storage people can test them there. You can't take them out of the guild hall if you're renting them, but you can still sort of get a feel of them. Then it puts a unique use into the guild training hall.

(this is dancinjen btw. I'm using my alt to post on the forums from work)

Edit:

Unless my guild absolutely wants a mistwell I probably won't get one. They are good in theory, but I don't want people to abuse them. I would like to think that I wouldn't get people in the guild who would, but you never know. I don't know if there is a log on who uses it, like puts in and takes out. But there should be a log on it. I think a log on it would eliminate a lot of the problems. Make it go into the normal report for the guild reports. That way you know who is taking and donating.

I don't like that veterans can get into design mode and move things. I know they can't publish but I don't like that they can move things. maybe there should be an option that can be put in there to return to published mode or something. Maybe i'm missing something. But i've had some veterans move stuff and I have to remember how it was and move it all back.

Some new short keys for design mode would be good too. like pressing c for chair... or something like that. :D

Second edit because i'm goofy:

That last paragraph of what octavian said. YES. I want options on what rank gets what. I know there are guilds who don't have active gm's but there are even more guilds who do have active gms and I would like many options to be gm only. Like message of the day... making guild hall public or not... things like that.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 00:54
#6
Severage's picture
Severage
...

"How about having an option to have a storage in the guild training hall and anyone who puts items into that storage people can test them there. You can't take them out of the guild hall if you're renting them, but you can still sort of get a feel of them. Then it puts a unique use into the guild training hall."

I believe you just paraphrase-quoted my thread, lol.

As for design mode, you can demote Veterans who screw with stuff. Other than that, it goes back to Octavian's quote "The best way to do it is not by setting rigid regulations that are universally applicable to all guilds, but by giving guild masters tools to regulate their guild how they see fit.

Hotkeys for design mode are probably unnecessary...I'd think it'd just get confusing. They may be useful I guess, but not essential anyway.

~Sev

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 01:30
#7
Tokinjen's picture
Tokinjen
Lol. Some of these posts are

Lol. Some of these posts are so long I'm just skimming a bit of them. But yeah I really like the renting for testing purposes in the guild training hall idea. Right now I really don't see any benefit to having a guild training hall. Make something super cool with it that will make it worth spending money on other than another status symbol to have in the guild.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 02:15
#8
Uniquevariant's picture
Uniquevariant
GM Regulations (ideas forthwith)

GMs Should be able to set the following:

What clearance a knight needs to access various levels of the guildhall.
Example:
Guild A. I lighthearted group of screw-offs who play the game for the pure merriment of it, and want no restrictions. All members of the guild are given clearance to all levels of the guildhall.

Guild B. A giant, well-organized guild with clear demarcation of requirements for every level of its ranking system. They have the guild hall set up with barracks for new recruits on the first floor, lounges for the members on the 2nd floor, veteran's quarters complete with mist wells on the 3rd floor, officer's chambers on the 4th, and GM suites on the 5th. The GM of this guild decide that you those corresponding ranks have access to those floors (obviously, each rank has free reign of any floor below their access as well). This will prevent recruits from ignoring the recruit barracks and running around all crazy like in the GM's suites, jumping in and out of their bed. Also, zone chats could be exclusive to each rank tier, where superiors could read any zone chat below them, but not vice-versa. In this way, the GM's and officers could meet in a 4th floor war room and openly discuss guild matters, without sharing their thoughts with the entire guild. (much like officer chat).

RANK SPECIFIC DOORS:
You should be able to buy two types of doors. Rank Specific Doors, and Knight specific Doors.
Rank specific doors would work well for open guilds that still wish to have some areas that are off limits. Say Guild A from the previous example wishes to have a war room for officers and GMs only, but other than that one room they want all 5 levels to be open to everyone. Then put officer + ranked doors on a room, and viola, you have a confidential place to discuss high-end guild matters.
--This would also serve to allow for all levels to be open, but still have the specific rooms for specific ranks, thus making higher ranks worthy of the prestige granted to them :)

Knight specific doors: This would be to put a door on "your room" that only you and people you choose can open. (you could have a preferred list that worked like the ignore list, but the opposite. So you could pick to share your room with only that special someone, or other close friends.)

Thats it for now.

Sun, 11/18/2012 - 02:30
#9
Octavianrb's picture
Octavianrb
@ Severage Building on your

@ Severage

Building on your idea of renting items just for the guild/training hall, perhaps that could be another function of the mist well? gms/officers/whoever can use it, rather than their own mist/CE to craft communal items that would be bound to the guild and kept within the hall. That way everyone can easily share the cost.

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