Spiral Knights - Graviton Vortex buff (discuss)

Graviton Vortex buff (discuss)

31 replies [Last post]

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 13:45

Chaolin-Drake

I been thinking lately that I think the Graviton Vortex needs a buff, I know it cool and all but it's out class by Electron Vortex the I think it need something like give it stun. Right now I think there like the old shard bombs ones useful and one not so useful, so lets compare the Graviton & Electron Vortex with the old shard bombs.

The Graviton Vortex I think is like the Old Ionized Salt Bomb it was hardly used because of the Normal and Piercing but it had a Damage bonus vs slime high but slime are resisted to piercing yes it does shock but it doesn't help it from it lack of power, the shock makes up for it in lockdown but shock alone helps not as much as the next bomb I'm going to talk about.

Electron Vortex I think is like the Radiant Sun Shards it's more useful then it's weaker cousin It had that Elemental and Piercing that makes it useful in more places like FSC, Lockdown, etc: And that Fiend Damage bonus high will help you deal with fiends better, and the Stun is not as useful as shock but still useful, It is even more better then Ionized Salt Bomb in lockdown, Sun Shards was a bombers best friend until the Shard bomb update making the Ionized Salt Bomb & Radiant Sun Shards balance each other but there not what they used to be now.

So giving Graviton Vortex stun will balance it out with the Electron Vortex I think the stun will be best for it and make since because the Graviton Vortex make enemies spin around and stun is also mean making someone dizzy in some cases so adding both will make scene don't you thing? It will be like spinning around in one of those rotated chairs

What do you think? Give it Stun? or Keep it the way it is? or you have something better? (discuss)

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 14:00

Aureate

wat.

Both bombs have the same charge time and charging movement penalties. (I definitely seem to recall that ISB had a longer charging time than the RSS, for some peculiar reason.)
Vortices are designed as utility weapons. They suck. Their first purpose is not damage. They are designed to set up enemies so that other weapons can then do lots of damage to them. They are support-focused bombs. (The old shards were damage-oriented only.)

Old RSS did not have stun. That is solely a feature of new RSS.
The reason old ISB was a considerably poorer choice was because a) its damage bonus was against a family that it was already at a damage type disadvantage against, and b) its charge time compared to its cousin RSS.

Let's look at the two vortices:
- We have the Graviton, which does shadow damage, and used to be the only option with regards to vacuum bombs. It sucks stuff, up to Trojans at its 5* version. It does shadow damage. The only caveat is that it flings enemies outwards after the duration expires, but there are ways of getting round that - shock and freeze infliction, for example.
- Then we have the Electron, which does elemental damage, and has a shock status. This makes it a somewhat better version than Graviton, but not especially so, and it takes more effort to acquire the recipes (non-tradeable Krogmo recipes, 300 coins to get all three). It is somewhat less likely to fling enemies than the Graviton, but the difference is reasonable given the extra effort put in to acquire them. Graviton is not made redundant by the existence of Electron.

The situation is nothing alike.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 14:03

Father-Frost

@ Chaolin-The-Chao

It has more damage then the EV already.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 14:06

Luguiru

As a dusty, old fashioned, constantly belching Graviton user I would rather it have the knockback removed from the blast than a boring damage buff. Electron can keep the knockback since shock does more than stop them from being thrown after the blast but is not guaranteed to be inflicted.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 14:09

Chaolin-Drake

@Father-Frost

I check the wiki of the two bombs and you are rights the Graviton already had a damage buff I will change the topic a bit. :P

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 14:16

Chaolin-Drake

@Luguiru

I found out it had a damage buff a long time ago thanks for Father-Frost telling me, The knockback can be annoy with that bomb it should like you said remove the knockback but that will ruin what the vortex is all about. maybe weaken the knockback?

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 15:22

Arctifice

How about increasing the

How about increasing the suction radius of the Graviton Vortex?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 05:49

Putkinen

Increasing the radius or duration are options. It'd be nice if the vortex itself was what did the damage, not some random explosion. I'd kinda like to see the bomb effect the player too though.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 17:21

Addisond

Is english your first language? You've got some grammar issues there...

As for the idea, I'd be fine with some sort of buff. Removing the knockback'd be really, really helpful. Then I'd also like to see some sort of damage buff or status to make up for the shock on the electron vortex.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 17:31

Klipik

+1 to Lug and Arctifice. Chao, you say the knockback is what the vortex is all about... I thought it was all about suction?

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 18:00

#10

Luguiru

Knockback is what Blast line does best in terms of bombs and Graviton used to be part of its alchemy tree where the 3* Blast upgraded to 4* Graviton.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 18:14

#11

Klipik

Oh.

¬.¬

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 19:04

#12

Chaolin-Drake

@Luguiru

Wait vortex used to be part of the blast bomb group did not know that, of course I was never around to witness it at that time makes me curious how did the vortex line got removed from the blast bombs alchemy tree? tell me more please :O

@Everyone any more suggestions about what to do with the Graviton Vortex?

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 19:47

#13

Luguiru

I forget if Nick and friends ever gave a reason or whether it was even an official update, but it happened a while ago. Graviton has pretty much always been ignored by most since it lacks the damage of everything short of Vaporizers, which even then could be used for damage with a competent bomber using it, but unlike the even older separation of the Vaporizer branches and taking out the 1* which was once a common starting point in the alchemy tree was unnoticed by almost everyone. I think it happened around when missions came out, maybe a month or two earlier. I logged in one day and fondled my recipes list like the normal person I am and noticed making a 4* Graviton suddenly had this new recipe called Graviton Charge, which I found out was just a dumb model change of the already existing Graviton.

It was probably part of the Blast tree originally to have the whole tree be the knockback family of bombs, Graviton being the weird cousin that pulls stuff in before throwing them everywhere. But now that Graviton is its own line it may as well have that obnoxious-vomit-everything-everywhere effect removed so it can focus on suction, which has always been the main advantage for the weapon. I think the change was to make an already ignored weapon be more noticeable since its lowest craftable point is higher, making people think it has more value, tricking them into spending CE which someone had to pass dollars over the table to get for a weapon most are too incompetent to even understand.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 20:17

#14

Chaolin-Drake

@Luguiru

Thank you for sharing some of the history of spiral knights that I don't know about by telling me about the Graviton Vortex being part of the blast bomb in the past. Ok time to go back on the topic about what to do to the Graviton Vortex, :)

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 20:33

#15

Klipik

I think we have already said

Increase suction range and remove explosion after "vortex" is finished.

Mon, 04/08/2013 - 21:36

#16

Hexzyle

@Klipik

One or the other, but not both, would be fantastic.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 04:17

#17

Zeddy

@Luguiru

How about instead of a boring damage buff, we give it an interesting damage buff?

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:26

#18

Luguiru

If we have to give it some weird damaging effect I would rather see it suck health from healers trapped in its suction and transfer it to non-healers, then the blast will very likely knock out any Mender whose health was transferred to ten Thwackers and Mechas. It would have a unique effect and be amazing against healers instead of another dumb damage-vomiting knucklenoggin.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 08:55

#19

Aureate

or we could just be lazy and give it Poison

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 09:13

#20

Addisond

Uh. Remove health proportionate to the health of the monsters trapped? I always kinda felt like the point of the grav bombs was to trap a lot of monsters at once, not grab some high-health ones and do insane damage.

Tue, 04/09/2013 - 17:43

#21

Quotefanboy

I know this isn't a very justifying retort, but...

The way I use Graviton / Electron makes them very, very, potent weapons. The problem is that you need max CTR to perform the action.

If you charge the bomb up, then walk just far enough while recharging another bomb, and set it down quick enough you will chain suction. I've destroyed Tier 3 arena fights and the like by just keeping nearly every enemy within the suction, and right when the explosion goes off the other one is going off so they take the explosion, but don't get pushed outward. Instead, they get sucked into the next bomb.

It's relatively safe.

I think what I'd like for the graviton vortex is a more powerful suction, but not a bigger radius (although that would be cool too.)

The problem with the graviton sometimes is that they get juggled around inside of the spiral, sometimes really messing up with the enemies hitboxes when they swing. See Alpha wolvers for the best example.

Another thing is some enemies like trojan charges and Fiend-dashing and sometimes even a skeleton jump if it's timed right. They can jump out of the bomb.

I would like it where when they get sucked in it's like there is no moving. They are locked in, none of that spazzing stuff, and no way of escaping.

The lack of pushback for the damage explosion would also be nice.

Mon, 07/22/2013 - 21:45

#22

Ender

Status effects

I like Aureate's idea of giving it poison. I'd also maybe go with curse.

For Grems and Slimes, I usually prefer dark retribution with maybe another status bomb (I usually go with 1 sword, 1 gun, 2 bombs in my loadout, 1 sword, 3 bombs in arena). DR, with max ctr, you can stack at least two, and though it has no suction, it doesn't take much to lure mobs into it.

If you gave GV a status effect, I'd find more reason to use it over DR, at least sometimes. Right now I just use GV in JK for fun.

Mon, 07/22/2013 - 21:55

#23

Coelydragon

Ignoring that it's a necro, since it's a good topic

Quite frankly, just extending the suction duration is good because it's basically a "hold still while I blitz/brandish charge/nitro/DA charge you" utility weapon.

Mon, 07/22/2013 - 22:28

#24

Vincey

EXtend the suction or status effect

The problem is, when you factor in slow walking speed, charge time, fuse and radius, the utility and damage of GV falls away compared to anything else. Is it CC? Is it damage? I'd favour removing the knockback and turning it into something with much more CC value (maybe adding poison too)

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 02:26

#25

Thunder-The-Bright

argh

I guess I'll double this post.
the fact that everyone uses it as an utility weapon doesn't make it an utility weapon. some people count on the explosion to actually kill enemies. it's offensive crowd control like nitrome and polaris. well, ish.
so, I would either buff damage or suction radius.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 03:32

#26

Coelydragon

@Thunder-the-bright

So? Some people use mist bombs offensively rather than as utility. Does that mean they should get a damage/radius boost too? If anything, the strength of the status (which currently isn't needed) because the status is its strong point. Same with vortex. Its strong point is the suction, and thus it should be buffed if anything. The after blast is there because it's a bomb and therefore needs an explosion.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 07:08

#27

Waffleconecake

ideas

I consider it a offensive CC. I honestly just think we should either
A: make it produce a stun or poison cloud in the center of the vortex, as if I was stuck in a gravitational vortex I would be a bit stunned. OO maybe it could form a cloud based on the level! curse for candle stick keeps, fire for fire levels, stun for normal clock work! why?Because you are condensing the air from the level into the small mist ring so the air of the level effects the mist cloud :D
or
B: Increase the suction radius and blast radius.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 10:27

#28

Thunder-The-Bright

erm, coley, I didn't say buff the mist bombs (I didn't say what to buff either, but it's kinda obvious).
also, bombs need an explosion, DR.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 10:44

#29

Canine-Vladmir

Im with Luguiru on this one

It would be more useful for the Graviton Vortex (shadow varient) to have no knock-back at all whatsoever.
So the mobs can stay grouped up. Sucks to being sucking in baddies just so they can be released backed into the wild in a random way.

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 13:35

#30

Coelydragon

@Thunder-the-bright

I know. My point is that if you're going to buff something, buff it's strong and unique points. And DR has an initial explosion so...

Tue, 07/23/2013 - 13:39

#31

Terra-Necro

Just increase the damage

Just increase the damage output for the bomb. Shadow has no status added, so the only extra thing would be damage. Increasing the radius of the bomb would be op.

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Graviton Vortex buff (discuss)