Oh hay, this thread again.

"We don't need to add an upgrade to the winmillion. It needs a buff. The thing is meant as a utility weapon so ending it at 4 stars is logical for it, just like having it deal normal damage. What it needs is a buff. Increase the range and speed of the projectiles is really all it needs to do its job better. At most it could get stun and a 5% damage increase. No more then that."

You and I both know "it's a utility weapon, it shouldn't get a 5*" is an excuse, and a bad one.

Should the Vortex and Mist bombs have no 5* because they're utility weapons? No.

Besides, the point of having a gear system like Spiral Knights is so you have more means to an end, as opposed to one superior means.

The dragon is dissapoint.

I honestly feel like we get more of this stuff than dual wielding nowadays. Not sure why. Maybe because dual wielding has been handled by the devs. They have an opinion and although it might not be too much fun (Fehzor's idea, for one, would be great), it's logical and would work well.

"The urge to slap someone never seems to leave me..."
You're nice.
...Go slap a pillow, imagine it's me.

"Draycos I feel like I already explained to you why it is a utility weapon"
I kinda remember posting in a thread like this one but I completely forgot what points were made.

"I'll use this as a chance to make a copy pasta for your rather bad counter argument as I'm sure I will encounter it again."
Hold off on that til we find who's wrong. No assumptions, that's cheating.

Skipping ahead here for another less important point so this post looks nicer: "And never call a vortex bomb a utility, It's a damn offensive crowd control."
I called it a "utility weapon" because it's used for its utility. If I wanted to blast things outright, I'd use a Nitronome. Vortex bombs are popular because they offer utility that nothing else does by pulling mobs to one location. The blast at the end is icing on the cake: just because a weapon has great utility doesn't mean it can't have some damage too. It is "offensive crowd control", which is utility. If you mean to suggest "utility weapons" are weapons that can only be useful for their utility, and that they should exist at all... please think about that. Mist bombs are okay, though, because like the Vortexes, they offer something that can't be mimicked.

"The reason why Winmillion is a utility weapon is because it's meant to be used by pure swordsmen to provide them with a ranged tool for hitting switches,... ...The reason why the winmillion ends at 4 stars is to keep it from out classing other normal swords like the Leviathan Blade ,the Cutter line, Sudaruska line and that it provides a utility that no other sword has. If it had a 5 star you would only see a slight boost in user numbers but it would still be used notably more then the other normal swords."

This! This right here. This makes me sad.

Think about this one. There is no reason to take a Winmillion over a gun. Winmillion bolts deal less than a Master Blaster at the same level, and if you land both the normal attack and the bolt on the same swing, it still does less than an Ascended Calibur. Yeah, it's a sword-gun so it should be a little behind either of those. That sounds nice on paper, but fundamentally, there's no point in using it. You could be much more effective by taking a sword and a gun separately. The only thing Winmillion has going for it right now is that it saves a weapon slot, but even that's shadowed since you can carry more than just two weapons... It might do something that few swords can (charge attacks!), but it doesn't match up to a gun.

It shouldn't end at 4* because it'd "outclass other swords". That's exactly the mindset I'm against. Weapons should be superior to eachother in their own ways so they're unique ways to play, another means to an end. That being said... you're kinda overblowing the "utility" a Winmillion presents. Like I keep saying, you could just take a regular gun and do better. Vortex bombs have way more utility, so should they become massively subpar to other choices?

Oh, and I had no idea where to fit this point in, so let me just throw it down here. You have better choices for switch-hitting among swords than a Winmillion that also aren't a Wrench Wand. Avenger/Faust/BTB, those all have charge attacks that shoot projectiles that travel over pits. Those same projectiles are also better than the Winmillion's bolts in the sense that they're actually meaningful in combat.

Wow, I tried to keep this relatively in order and it all blew up everywhere anyway. Lame.

I strongly support the idea of giving the winmillion a 5* upgrade. There is no reason to keep it stuck a 4*, "utility weapon" or not.

if vortex was all about pulling enemies in one place, then the explosion would be counterproductive. in fact, it's not. it's the mean to kill enemies with vortex. besides everything you say, vortex is the most safe bomb for bombers.
to me, a weapon is utility when you don't kill directly with an effect of that bomb, or with the bomb itself. that leaves practically only the 3 mist bombs mentioned before, without using the initial blast.
as for winmillion, it's either bad balancing or intentional. if it's bad balancing, my suggestion is up there. if it's intentional, we could ask nick "WHY NICK WHY" until answers. but that's not likely to happen.

if it's used as an utility weapon does not mean it is. you can spam polaris scattering things around instead of crowd control, for example. again, people rely on the last blast on the vortex for damage, and the people who don't know that they must strike before it or their strategy would be ruined.
and people use vortex for visibility. you could do the same with supernova, but the explosion would make you blind (no reference at other things that make you blind. I mean that the explosions are white and big. oh, crap, not again.). all you need is a wall or a corner.
and I changed my mind. shard bombs are the safest bombs. if you use them right, you wouldn't see enemies attacking.
now, why are we discussing this here?

Again, I said that Vortexes are valuable for their utility, NOT that they're useless damage-wise. I can still use a Venom Veiler against poison-themed Undead for its weak initial blast, or I could use a rocket hammer's dash to attack things instead of repositioning myself with it.

The reason the Vortexes are so unique with their crowd control is that they're much more consistent and predictable than other weapons with AoE knockback. They're used more than pulsars in team play for more than just visibility reasons.

@Waffleconecake There's a difference between a weapon that has outstanding utility [Vortexes- some of the best CC in the game with lower base damage but much higher potential] and a weapon that is only useful for its utility [yes, I hate Shivermist Buster, but mechanically they're unique enough to be viable equips]. That's what I'm against, here, that second type. Winmillion shouldn't fall into that category because it doesn't have anything special going for it in the first place, unlike Mist Bombs.

Oh? I shouldn't have called it a utility weapon? Maybe you guys should have specified that utility weapon means "pure utility" and not "utility heavy". Hmm.