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Warp-Master brings teamwork back from the Graveyard

11 replies [Last post]
Sat, 08/03/2013 - 10:38
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master

In case you haven't noticed, there's not much reason to do anything other than solo now.

  • Health revives are gone, so you can't do anything to support your allies beyond just hitting the things that are hitting them.
  • You can't drop vials and capsules, so you can't heal your friends or give them your stuff before you leave.
  • Loot is instanced, so the whole party is forced to travel on the same path or spend a bunch of time running around in empty rooms to get everything.

That last one is extra annoying; before instancing, one of the most important benefits of partying up was the ability to divide and conquer to clear "hit these switches to open the big door" sections more quickly. You can't do that now, and there's no real way to help your friends in an interesting way, so why bother? A four-player party is now effectively a solo party with double monster HP and 3 NPC knights. More than that, this change betrays Spiral Knights' essential purpose. Nick, if you're reading this (and I hope you do), go ahead and click on that "About" button at the top of the screen and look toward the right edge of your browser window. Go on, I'll wait. ... Back yet? Notice the words "Co-operative Exploration" on the list of features? That's what Spiral Knights is supposed to be about. And you're killing it.

Much like the Forge, the change to instanced loot was most likely intended to stop people joining FSC parties and such and sitting down, only moving forward to activate party buttons once all opposition has been cleared, a phenomenon I have dubbed "alt-dragging". Also much like the Forge, it derails the game for everyone, including law-abiding knights who actually work for their gear.

Here's my simple solution for alt-dragging: don't give loot to knights who aren't active or are running multiple instances of the game on the same PC. It's worked spectacularly for TF2, after all. I'm torn on whether to pause loot acquisition for inactive knights or strip them of their earnings for that floor; feedback on this would be especially welcome. We can keep the new system's one benefit (no drama over randomly-distributed materials) by making materials and rarities picked up by one player count for all players in the party.

As for the new revive system and no item dropping, I'm baffled. I guess removing health revives was to avoid revival being too cheap with Sparks of Life dropping every 5 treasure boxes on Elite, but I can't interpret removing vial dropping as anything but a middle finger toward cooperation. Not much to say here, just reduce the drop rate for Sparks, bring back health revives,, remove the emergency revive since it was apparently intended to fill the role of health reviving, and make vials and capsules droppable again.

Not bothering with a TL;DR this time since this post turned out so short.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 11:08
#1
Hexzyle's picture
Hexzyle

Don't you know? Teamwork is more trouble than it's worth now since you can't help your party members in any meaningful way beyond hacking at monsters that they also happen to be hacking at. You can't even split up effectively now that loot is instanced.
-Round-Shinigami

On the contrary, I pay far more attention to my party's wellbeing with Seraphynx than I ever did before the update. If someone starts dipping below half health I'll look for the next opportunity to use Heart Attack. If a teammate is in critical condition and has already burnt their emergency revive, I'll stick by them and throw up a bubble if things get hairy.
-Orbwanter

To your method of preventing alts, alts can be run on multiple computers or VMs. Additionally, now you have to define what counts as "doing something". Players can simply put a rock on an arrow key, or program an auto-clicker to swing the sword.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 11:25
#2
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
@Hexzyle

"Don't you know? Teamwork is more trouble than it's worth now since you can't help your party members in any meaningful way beyond hacking at monsters that they also happen to be hacking at. You can't even split up effectively now that loot is instanced.
-Round-Shinigami

On the contrary, I pay far more attention to my party's wellbeing with Seraphynx than I ever did before the update. If someone starts dipping below half health I'll look for the next opportunity to use Heart Attack. If a teammate is in critical condition and has already burnt their emergency revive, I'll stick by them and throw up a bubble if things get hairy.
-Orbwanter"

Haha, I actually posted that first bit. As for the second bit, that's new functionality. This thread is about restoring old functionality that should never have been removed.

"To your method of preventing alts, alts can be run on multiple computers or VMs. Additionally, now you have to define what counts as "doing something". Players can simply put a rock on an arrow key, or program an auto-clicker to swing the sword."

I'm not familiar with what telemetry data the game server gathers, so I didn't give any suggestions for how to define an active player. It could be as simple as "If a player has not dealt damage to a monster, taken damage, or triggered an event in X period of time, flag that player as inactive."

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 11:31
#3
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
You haven't dubbed anything,

You haven't dubbed anything, the term has been in use for quite awhile. And you didn't really specify what you wanted to change with this system. Something like giving us back the shared loot pickup and dropping consumables, right?

For the consumables, it was to stop the players from dragging pills and the sort behind a gate to use during a tough fight. Imagine the lulz with 6 stun vials on everyone.

Will be back later to finish my thoughts on this, going out for lunch.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 11:51
#4
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
@Demonicsothe

Oops. I said something like it and other people used it, and I didn't see it anywhere else, so I assumed I invented it. Remember, I'm very new to these forums. And yes, I am suggesting that loot pickups become shared and non-instanced again.

Thanks for pointing out that exploit regarding the consumables, I never even thought about that. That's why feedback is important for suggestions like this.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 11:52
#5
Juances's picture
Juances

"A four-player party is now effectively a solo party with double monster HP and 3 NPC knights."

Almost there. Double HP on enemies, but 4 players = 4 times more power. So it should be better than solo.
The party gets more bonuses than the monsters.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 12:04
#6
Thunder-The-Bright's picture
Thunder-The-Bright

Loot is instanced, so the whole party is forced to travel on the same path or spend a bunch of time running around in empty rooms to get everything.

nope.
if you want all the loot in cradle is yes. but you can say "screw loot" and go on your way. elevators are free, so it's all profit.
I would like to say more but right now my talk makes no sense. no, I'm not drunk, I'm in this state normally.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 13:34
#7
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
Back from lunch

So in essence, the anti-idle technique you wish to implement is some sort of detection system that would kick knights if they don't satisfy a set amount of requirements. I can see how it would work for tf2, but not sk. There are times when one has to take a break or go do some real life stuff while diving, and groups generally would wait.

And what if they're waiting for the elevator to change?

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 14:39
#8
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
@Demonicsothe

Hmm. If you have a better idea for an anti-idle system that would let you get "all the loot in cradle" (shared pickups) without enabling altdragging I'm all ears. (Not being snarky here, BTW, I'm very interested in any ideas you may have.) I just came up with the example I gave off the top of my head. I wanted to give a basic concept for Three Rings to refine however they wanted, not act like I knew more about the game than the people who made it.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 14:59
#9
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
I feel like the current

I feel like the current system, for its purpose, works well. Alt dragging is at a disadvantage, requiring the player to run the knight every time a gate is passed. And if they had fallen, it requires a revive. Disregarding the energy change, which instanced loot is a result of, current system is fine.

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 15:25
#10
Warp-Master's picture
Warp-Master
Bleh. I don't disagree that

Bleh. I don't disagree that the current system does its job. However, it affects legit players who could split up on maps like FSC and Deconstruction Zone and still get everything before who can't now. That is what I call a Very Bad Thing.

Besides, IMO not having health revives is a major roadblock to teamwork too. Worse than that, it had no reason to be removed, other than exploiting people who burn through Sparks constantly. (And that doesn't even work as an excuse because if you are terrible at the game and relying on health revives you're going to be leeching off your party members and they're liable to leave you for dead, meaning that you'd need to burn through Sparks anyway.)

Sat, 08/03/2013 - 15:31
#11
Demonicsothe's picture
Demonicsothe
By current system, I meant the instanced loot

I do wish the old revive system would come back. Even if the revive has terrible hp conversion, such as half your health to transfer 25% over, it would bring team play back. Keep the sparks as the last resort revive, remove emergency revive. Then ramp up the ce cost of SoL

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