Spiral Knights - T3 Darkfang Thwacker Nerf

T3 Darkfang Thwacker Nerf

84 replies [Last post]

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 08:13

Skepticraven

*** Update Edit ***

This discussion is about the balancing of a Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack.
My current suggested nerfs: Reduce damage, Reduce attack speed, OR Make attack easier to identify. (More details in post #25)

Important posts
Description of the attack in detail (With timings): Post #38
Analysis of comparing Darkfang Thwackers to Mecha Knights: #26, #28, #43, #46.
Damage analysis posts:
►Darkfang Thwacker: #16, #19, #39, #74-78
►Lumber: #25
►Alpha Wolver: #25
►Volt Mecha Knight: #48
►Elite vs Normal Difficulty: #40
►Trojan: #59

Summary of Damage analysis:
The two (tied) highest damage dealing attacks are the Trojan charge (I call it shield bash) attack, and the Darkfang Thwacker Spin attack.
It is estimated that the non-status Mecha Knight's charge attack would be the same as these two.

*** End Edit: Showing old First Post Below***

For some reason something is not computing correctly for my armor or one attack from gremlin shieldmen is overpowered.
I've been doing OCH for a bit, and began noticing that the one attack where gremlins spin when you get close to them takes out a significant quantity of my health (dead in 3 hits). I actually took note of how much health it was taking off on me: 13 bars (Elite difficulty)[Edit: correction → ~9 pips]. Now if you watch the attack, it deals elemental damage only (green bars fly off me when hit, no red ones) [Edit: correction → norm+ele (norm ones are sometimes hidden)]. The 13 bar damage was delt to me while wearing a chaos set, which has a good amount of elemental resist. Does this mean that without that elemental defense, I could get 1-shot with 30 bars of health?

The attack should be nerfed. Either in attack speed (Good luck dodging it unless you were already running), damage quantity, or the application of damage reduction due to armor. Getting 1/3rd of my health taken out (with a good vitapod) from an attack that takes less than a second to occur with a damage type I am resistant to seems unreasonable.

I sometimes find these guys more lethal than devilites.
If you melee them, they use this attack more often. (Massive damage, throw you back, and possibly stun you).
If you range them, they often turn away and deflect with their shield or dash behind you and possibly use this swing attack.
If you bomb them, they often just smash you to pieces with the swing attack.

The only good methods of killing them are brandish charges (Archeon kills them nicely), Sentenza (because it sometimes pierces the shield), and Grand Faust (2nd swing knocks them down).

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 08:20

Thunderbog

hush draggies. i creep in.

I see no reason why should they be underpowered in the future.

Comfortably use yer shields that are good against these type of monsters, owlite shields, dark retribution, acheron, etc.

They're okay to handle, the swing attack acts as a charge attack in which ye should be aware of.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 10:01

Hexzyle

-1

I find Darkfang Thwackers one of the few remaining enemies that are actually enjoyable to fight. If you haven't figured out how to handle them yet, you shouldn't really be playing on Elite.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 10:19

Skepticraven

@Hexzyle

Lol, I shouldn't be playing on elite? I did note in the first post that Acherons and Sentenzas take them out nicely.

I'm just annoyed when they take away my free rev because 3 of them back to back to back spin hit me. They're fine to deal with usually, its just I don't find it reasonable to get 3-hit in less than 2 seconds when my armor resists their damage. For reference of the quantity of damage they are doing -> it is comparable to one swing from Vanaduke (minus chance to inflict fire), in a much faster attack.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 10:36

Khamsin

@OP

In swarms, yes, they can be cruel. Pairs of them are a joke though.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 11:04

Zeddy

"The 13 bar damage was delt to me while wearing a chaos set, which has a good amount of elemental resist. Does this mean that without that elemental defense, I could get 1-shot with 30 bars of health?"

You would take 16 bars of damage. Chaos' defence is not all that great.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:16

Hexzyle

completely forgot I already pressed the save button.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:13

Hexzyle

@Skepticraven

Your post proves that they're exceptional in melee, so don't melee them without caution then. (I always have my shield up when I'm close to them so I never git hit by spin attacks)
Bombing or Gunning them works excellently due to the way those two weapon classes work (kiting) and swords with long reaches like the Brandish, Avenger/Faust and Troika charges work amazingly. A well placed Leviathan charge can also keep them at arms length. You're only screwed against them if for some reason you have no non-elemental guns or bombs and are walking around inexperienced with a cutter or toothpick (which you shouldn't be doing if you're in Elite in the first place)

If you range them, they often turn away and deflect with their shield or dash behind you and possibly use this swing attack.

No. a Gremlin with a direct line of site will always face you, unless he's derping with his pathfinding in which case you can ignore him for more smarter enemies who actually know how to get to you. If you're gunning at a close enough range that a Gremlin can dash behind you, you should be using your sword in the first place.

If you bomb them, they often just smash you to pieces with the swing attack.

Well then you obviously don't know how to kite. Gremlins and Mecha Knights alike are hilariously easy to bomb. Just run and drop and they'll walk right into it. Their speed means they cluster together nicely blast after blast and the shield on their back makes it so that it's difficult to accidentally overkite them with knockback into yourself.

If you wanted a tutorial on how to fight them that badly, you should have gone to New Recruits.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:32

Wavara

"I find Darkfang Thwackers one of the few remaining enemies that are actually enjoyable to fight."

I completely agree, I love doing Decon zones just for that. Fun fact, I use a Blazebrand/DTB against them :B

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 12:45

Little-Juances

The spinning attack is static and has closer range, thus becoming easier to avoid than their throws and dashes.
The difference in power is justified if you put it this way. If it needs a nerf, it should be minimal.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 13:55

#10

Skepticraven

@Hexzyle

I won't even respond to your strategies of killing them because you are missing the point of this thread/discussion: I was discussing the damage they are dealing, NOT the strategy for killing them OR complaining about how I always die against them. I mentioned a couple strategies to kill them, which you hooked onto. I clarified in the response to your first post that I was discussing the damage they deal. Thank you for derailing it already. (sarcasm)

The damage they deal with this attack comparable with bosses, when they are a common monster. It seems unbalanced to get 3-hit by a monster that I am wearing armor that is resistant against its attacks. (Perhaps 2 or even 1-hit without all the hp boosts/resistant armor.)

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 14:14

#11

Nechrome

-1

There's a reason why Thwackers are classified as Elite enemies, you know.

But yeah. Like Zeddy implied, Chaos isn't that good of an armor if you want defense. It's a glass cannon set, so it's built to give you lots of attack bonuses while giving you little defense.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 14:53

#12

Skepticraven

@Lordofnecromancers

Unless the tooltip lies like the speed for GF, it has very slightly more armor ratings as other 4* normal+elemental armor. I don't consider that "little". I may have to run a test of this against other elemental armor, and possibly submit a bug report. I'm unfamiliar with the term "Elite enemies". Does that refer to T3 enemies? If so, why aren't the rest of them as powerful? Pending a T3 Lumber variant and bosses, I don't recall any monsters taking 1/3rd of my hp off that I was wearing resistant armor.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 14:59

#13

Nechrome

" it has very slightly more armor ratings as other 4* normal+elemental armor"

Yeah. Chaos is 5* :P So if it has just about the same armor ratings as 4*...

From what I remember, Elite enemies are enemies like Mecha Knights, Thwackers, and Greavers. There are some others, but I don't remember them. Basically the more heavy-hitting ones that are still considered normal enemies, I guess?

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 16:18

#14

Isekuube

Derp. :3

-1

Hex ninja'd me by like 8 hours. x3

And if any of the monsters in the Gremlin family were to be nerfed, it would be the Mortars or whatever.
Not a nerf, just maybe a change to their cowardice.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 16:40

#15

Arkate

If you want armor for OCH,

If you want armor for OCH, invest in something a little bit better. Because in OCH, almost all of the enemies except for the occasional turret are gremlins, so you'll really only be taking shadow weapons. Because all of the damage you'll be doing with those weapons will work through the entire mission, there is really not a reason to get Chaos for all the weapon damage bonuses. And OCH is considerably aggressive on Elite and Advanced, so if you're going to complain about poor defense, invest in better elemental armor like Grey Owlite or Nameless.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 17:24

#16

Skepticraven

Just tested, Arcane Sally got

Just tested, Arcane Sally got delt 9.25 bars of health damage by this attack (-22% with 43 total hp).

For reference in comparing the armor info between the two armor sets:
Arcane in the gear stats shows normal and elemental to the exact middle of N in elemental (8.25 lines approximately)
Chaos in the gear stats shows normal and elemental to the exact top of the first arc in M in elemental (7.5 lines approximately)
That .75 "lines" in the gear stats either accounts for a good 3.75 bars of health or the chaos set is displaying incorrectly. Comparing with percentages, its 10% more elemental resistance accounts for 40% reduction in damage.

This is looking more like a bug report on the armor info. I'll have to find some of the 4* stuff that is "slightly weaker" than chaos and see how much it gets delt before confirming this is the case.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 20:53

#17

Hexzyle

My discussion on strategies to fight them is not derailing the topic. You're discussing the balance of the Thwackers. (damage dealt counts as balance) Even if Lumbers did three times the amount of damage they do now, you wouldn't be complaining about that if they were also three times as slow. The enemy's weaknesses validates the enemy's strength. That's the basis of the laws of balance. If you put weight on one end, you also have weight on the other end that evens it out. I'm explaining the weight on the other end.
Elite enemies are enemies with a large array of attacks at their disposal, and are often far more quick-footed than their regular counterparts. They are almost on par with Brutes when it comes to combat prowess (Brutes tend to have a lot more health though)
Enemies that fall into the Elite category are Gremlin Thwackers, Mecha Knights, Greavers, Ice Cubes and Alpha Wolvers. Two of these have been nerfed already, in some form or another.
The Gremlin Thwacker and Mecha Knight special attacks I believe are on par with Brute damage, which is only a 50% boost ontop of their regular attacks. In addition, I'm fairly sure it deals a surmountable amount of normal damage, which is far easier to defend against than Lumbers, and since your Chaos Cloak lacks in both Normal defense and Elemental, is why you're being hit so hard.

Perhaps 2 or even 1-hit without all the hp boosts/resistant armor.

As Zeddy said, and Zeddy is far more aware of armor defenses than all of us, you would take 16 bars of damage. That means you'd die in three hits whether you're wearing Chaos or not.

it has very slightly more armor ratings as other 4* normal+elemental armor

Firstly, that statement is incorrect. Chaos cloak has less elemental defense than Miracle Cloak, its 4 star counterpart.
Secondly, it's a 5 star armor: why are you comparing it to 4*?
Thirdly, out of all 5* armors that defend against normal or elemental, it has the least amount of elemental defense andnormal defense.

Tue, 10/08/2013 - 22:28

#18

Revolucas

If you are using chaos set I

If you are using chaos set I suggest using Final Flourish charge attack on them instead. In fact I prefer to always use Final Flourish on gremlins since it kills them in 3 hits (solo) with max damage and is much faster then Acheron.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 06:16

#19

Skepticraven

More Damage Tests

@Hexzyle
Firstly, that statement is incorrect. Chaos cloak has less elemental defense than Miracle Cloak, its 4 star counterpart.

There are currently 4 elemental 4* armor types, it is stronger than 3 and weaker than 1. Showing that one is stronger is misleading. Notice I did not say "stronger than all 4* elemental".

Secondly, it's a 5 star armor: why are you comparing it to 4*?

Because it has been long established that it is not a super damage resisting armor. My point is that it still shows that it resists some, and is slightly better than 4* equipment.

Thirdly, out of all 5* armors that defend against normal or elemental, it has the least amount of elemental defense andnormal defense.

This point is superfluous.
[/@Hexzyle]

Now to add another small calculation:
The element bar goes slightly past the middle of the N (est. 8.5 lines : .25 higher than arcane sally), but the normal stays the same.
I decided instead of crafting some 4* equip to add in the sprite element high boost. With 25 bars of health, this attack delt 9.5 bars of health damage (44% to 6%, 25 bars total).

Why does a simple increase of Element High reduce 27% of the damage?
Or even better, IF Zeddy is correct in his calculation, why does one element resist high change 18.75% damage resistance to 40.6% damage resistance?
Yes, it is an element attack. Yes, it is the addition of a "high resist". But why does 90% of the armor resist about 20% and the last 10% of the armor add on another 20%?

*Edit: To confirm Zeddy's approximation: Using the free gear (lowest norm/ele gear I have) it delt 15.75 bars of damage, so 16 is a good estimate without any normal resist at all.
Additionally, Sally set with the element high perk yields 8.75 bars of damage (.5 less than without the perk).
Wearing chaos and using the perk adds 20% additional reduction.
Wearing arcane sally and using the perk adds 3.125% additional reduction.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 06:43

#20

Thunder-The-Bright

zeddy's damage is always correct. she (she, right?) has a damage table of all resistances and attacks.
99% of the games are about kill or getting killed. in this case, don't get hit, especially not with chaos.
don't focus on bars, they are perfectly useless when calculating proportions.
what tactic do you use to kill them? in swarms like in deconstruction zones, it's better retreat while shooting sentenza. it kills them quite nicely.
<4, just grab you GF and get swinging. be sure to hit them all or to shield right after the first swing. if someone begins attacking, dash away, you'll get out of their attack distance.

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 08:41

#21

Skepticraven

@Thunder-The-Bright

Why should I not focus on bars when calculating proportions? How else am I supposed to calculate the damage resistance without looking at how much damage I take (back calculated from the % indicator rounded to the visual portions of bars on health)?

I clearly stated in my first post that their damage was too high for the type of the attack. (Wiki lists it as "instantaneous", while there is approximately half a second delay between beginning of animation to hitting)
It has now been established that this attack deals 16 damage to unarmored, yet the majority of people (thanks to Hexzyle's derailing) are discussing attacking styles.

Only Zeddy (to state the unarmored damage) and Little-Juances (stating opinion on why they think its balanced) have stayed on topic.
*********************
This topic is about the balancing of a Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack, not strategies for killing them or the chaos armor that I use to fight them. Everyone, PLEASE, back on topic.
*********************

Insightful things that could support of oppose my suggestion: Other attack damages and how they compare (including attack speed).

Wed, 10/09/2013 - 08:56

#22

Hexzyle

As I mentioned before, the ease of countering an enemy is perfectly relevant to a discussion over balance. If Gun Puppies were glass cannons and flinched over everything, would you complain if their rate of fire was doubled?
I already specified the qualifications of an Elite enemy, which you COMPLETELY ignored in favor of arguing the one short part of my post talking about chaos ("...or the chaos armor that I use to fight them": hypocritical statement)
I have no problem with people ignoring segments of my arguments. (I do it too when I can't think up a good response to someone) But to label enemy statistics as "not relevant to balancing discussion" is just stupid.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 02:20

#23

Thunderbog

"This topic is about the balancing of a Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack, not strategies for killing them or the chaos armor that I use to fight them. Everyone, PLEASE, back on topic."

We're trying to help ye. They really are not a good threat if ye ask me. Have ye not fought the mortar gremlins?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 03:37

#24

Dagunner

Please no more nerfs

There have been more than enough nerfs to enemies. Just learn how to fight them.

hint: Many types of Sword charges work very well

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 08:56

#25

Skepticraven

Other Damages for Comparison

I decided to do some other armor calculations on T3 elite areas, since the prestige missions allow it easily. I wore a Lvl 1 Mining helmet and a lvl 7 Spiral Brigandine giving me a grand total of almost no armor (just below the 2nd line under the Gear Stats menu).
D25 nature of the beast I encountered Lumbers and Alpha Wolvers (both of the fire variety)
The lumber did 19.5 bars of health damage on me and caused a stun (apparently got lucky with the fire).
Alpha wolvers got 2 attacks on me, both dealing 13.5 bars of health damage and causing fire.
With my previous damage analysis, the Darkfang Thwackers delt 15.75 bars of damage with this armor. Additionally, the 9.87 bars of damage for the normal swing in this armor.

Lumber seems balanced because its movement is super slow, really high hp, attack is heavily delayed (~1.5s) and very predictable.
Alpha wolver seems balanced, or underpowered. It is very agile and can jump around wherever, but still has a fairly high delay on its attack (about 1 sec before unleashing the triple attack in the straight line). The balancing may come into play with its area damage boost, which seems mostly untested here on the forums/wiki.
By comparison, Thwackers can jump around (not as well as alpha wolvers) and have their 3 types of attacks. The normal strike is delayed about the same as the alhpa wolver (~1s). The range attack, I haven't been lucky enough to measure it, since they rarely use it. The spin attack is almost an instant attack (~0.5s delay) that deals fairly high damage. A monster with a fairly versatile attack strategy has one fairly unpredictable attack that deals fairly high damage.

Perhaps as an alternative suggestion; instead make the current attack easier to identify. An elegant way (although not an easy coding way) would be to make their axe glow before doing the attack itself - signifying that its next attack is going to be the powerful swing.
**********Modifying my initial suggested "nerf possibility" list to: Reduce damage, Reduce attack speed, OR Make attack easier to identify.

@Dagunner
hint: Many types of Sword charges work very well

Guess why I use chaos? CTR MAX on everything lvl 10. Now back on topic PLEASE!

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 10:20

#26

Hexzyle

By comparison, Thwackers can

By comparison, Thwackers can jump around (not as well as alpha wolvers) and have their 3 types of attacks. The normal strike is delayed about the same as the alhpa wolver (~1s). The range attack, I haven't been lucky enough to measure it, since they rarely use it. The spin attack is almost an instant attack (~0.5s delay) that deals fairly high damage. A monster with a fairly versatile attack strategy has one fairly unpredictable attack that deals fairly high damage.

You forgot about Mecha Knights. Let's compare regular combat:

Pro Gremlin

Gremlin's spin attack strikes with very little warning whatsoever

Balanced

Mecha Knights have a reactive shield, which activates infront of them upon projectile detection, instead of Gremlin's passive rear shield which doesn't really get in the way unless they're running away or derping about. Gremlins have the ability to dodge upon projectile detection, but it doesn't block all damage
Mecha Knight's spin attack deals the same damage as the Gremlin's spin attack
Mecha Knight's regular attack is performed at the same frequency as Gremlin's regular attack, and deals the same damage
Gremlins can have an erratic movement which slows their approach, but makes them difficult to hit when close. Mecha Knights always move quickly and directly towards their target

Pro Mecha Knight

Mecha Knights move faster than Darkfang Thwackers
Mecha Knight's regular attack can be used while moving at full speed, while Gremlins must stop to swing.
Mecha Knight's regular attack strikes twice with very little warning whatsoever
80% of Mecha Knights inflict status with their regular and charge attack. In addition, Mecha Knight's frequently used charge attack creates projectiles that deal damage, while Gremlin's infrequently thrown projectiles do not.
Mecha Knight projectiles are frequently released and deal both damage and inflict status. Gremlin projectiles are infrequently thrown and only deal stun

So why aren't you complaining for a Mecha Knight nerf?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 11:04

#27

Zeddy

By the way, gremlin thwackers count as elite enemies, which is why you wont' find them in regular clockworks and such. That means they are intended to be balanced with the like of greavers and mecha knights.

Lumbers and alpha wolvers are 'brute' class enemies (as named by Hexzyle), intended more to tank damage and catch you off-guard rather than being serious threats on their own.

@Thunder-The-Bright

"zeddy's damage is always correct"

Whoa there, now! I have no clue how correct that 16 bar damage number is. It was an approximation from adding Chaos' defence in Lockdown to the 13 bar figure.

@The topic in question
I think it's weird for the spin attack to deal pure elemental damage, but I guess this was on elite? It probably is usually split normal/elemental, so your defences should be able to bring the total down to below 8 bars perhaps if you're using something defensive like gray feather on advanced difficulty.

Also consider using Venom Veiler. It will nearly halve the damage output from gremlins as they're fairly weak to poison.

@Hexzyle
Are you sure about ice cubes being elite enemies? I've seen them in regular freeze/slime clockwork passages.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 11:18

#28

Skepticraven

@Hexzyle

You missed a couple things that makes the Darkfang Thwackers seem weaker.

►Darkfang Thwackers have a dash that can be used offensively (not provoked by range attacks).
►Darkfang Thwacker's attacks move themselves forward during the strike.
►Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack actually does slightly move them towards the player attacking them. It is approximately half the distance traveled by one of their normal attacks.
►Darkfang Thwackers can choose mid normal attack to either do one swing or two swings.
►Darkfang Thwackers have a run and heal strategy at low health, while Mecha Knights are of fight-to-death mentality.
►Mecha Knights take approximately 1.5s to charge their powerful attack, while Darkfang Thwackers can do their powerful attack in (approximately) 1/3rd the time.
►Mecha Knights have a infrequent "shock self" attack which can deal shock status and injures itself.
►Mecha Knights have a reactive shield WITH a timed cooldown, making it approximately equivalent to the Darkfang's shield. The fact that they also cannot move when its in use is a significant disadvantage.

This changes a couple notes on the "Pro Mecha Knight" list you made.
#1 is voided due to the Darkfang Thwacker's dash.
#2 is voided due to both of their normal attacks moving themselves forward.
#3 is valid. I don't consider it overpowered or unbalanced because it is a normal attack that doesn't nearly deal as much as the power attack (30-40% less damage).
#4 and #5 You are comparing part of a Mecha Knight's charge attack with the Darkfang Thwacker's range attack.
#4 Stun is a status that all of Darkfang Thwacker attacks can deal. It is now a very weak status ever since the dash update BUT still a status that has the potential to cripple a fighting knight.

Oh wait, that leaves only #3 fully there. Now according to the modified list of unbalanced comparative attacks, clarified by me, a Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack is just as op as a Mecha Knight's normal attack. One does 30-40% more damage.

I don't have a good method of reliably timing attacks to give anything more than estimated values, but if you really want to discuss this comparison further, it will be much more persuasive IF you actually have concrete measured times. Now that I'm watching the timing more closely, Darkfang's normal attack seems closer to 0.75s than my 1s previous estimate.
Also, I picked the Wolver Apha because the only mentions of "elite" enemies that I could find was a thread by you listing them among them and they were convenient to test today.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 11:27

#29

Skepticraven

@Zeddy

I think it's weird for the spin attack to deal pure elemental damage, but I guess this was on elite?

With the first observation, it was only the green bars flying off. However, on future attacks it has been both. It seems that if more than a certain amount fly off, not all can be seen (perhaps they fall visually hidden by another bar, or the total number is capped). With my Arcane Sally test, there were clearly both red and green, but more green.

Also, all my tests have been on elite (Thwackers were on first depth of OCH, labeled as ???, others as labeled). No one has yet given data (in this thread) to say that my number are that far off due to the equivalent depth being higher than stratum 6.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 12:46

#30

Zeddy

T3 OCH goes from depth 24 to depth 28, just like FSC.

I have confirmed this much by looking at Nitro's damage numbers.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 16:15

#31

Revolucas

It's balanced. You have a

It's balanced. You have a perception problem because you are playing on Elite and wearing Chaos armor.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 16:51

#32

Skepticraven

@Revolucas

Post #21 "This topic is about the balancing of a Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack, not strategies for killing them or the chaos armor that I use to fight them. Everyone, PLEASE, back on topic."

Post #31 "It's balanced. You have a perception problem because you are playing on Elite and wearing Chaos armor."

Thanks for reading /sarcasm.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 17:27

#33

Battlegrinder

@Skepticraven

Discussing the need to nerf a monster without discussing the tactics you use to beat it is pointless. If I was running around trying to kill wolvers with a WRH or Polaris, would that be grounds for nerfing them?

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 17:37

#34

Arkate

Battlegrinder has a fair

Battlegrinder has a fair point; glass cannon sets like Chaos are not built to withstand high damage. They are built to provide bonuses to all types of playstyles, while sacrificing lots of defense for this. I would understand if you complained about elemental damage while wearing a nameless set with a grey owlite shield or a grey owlite set with the shield and they did boatloads of damage. But wearing super-offensive armor with very low defense is no grounds for nerfing an enemy.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 17:46

#35

Zeddy

It should be mentioned that the defence a full Gray Feather set provides over Chaos does not even amount to a full pip. It wouldn't actually save you much more than Chaos against the gremlin spin.

At the moment, you mostly just get defensive sets because they provide resistances to two statuses and 27 extra defence matters a lot for low-damaging stuff like bullets.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 17:47

#36

Arkate

Wat. OOO. Fix this.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 18:42

#37

Revolucas

I'm on topic. You are

I'm on topic. You are discussing damage and how a certain attack is over powered. Damage is doubled from enemies on Elite and tactics most certainly matters when discussing if a certain monster ability is too powerful. YOU even mention the weapons and tactics you use to kill them. Not only can you mitigate damage in this game, you can dodge and shield. An easily avoidable attack from a Twacker that deals 16 bars of health on Elite is not overpowered. Most of the popular weapons to deal with gremlins knock them down in 2 hits. If you are over extending, getting too close and not interrupting them then the issue is you, not their damage.

"Elite difficulty features an exceptional challenge for fearless players who have mastered combat. Monsters and traps are very deadly." -- Spiral Knights disclaimer for Elite difficulty

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 21:01

#38

Skepticraven

Sigh

@Battlegrinder #33
If you really insist, please tell me your tactics to dodge a spin attack. Keep in mind the average reaction time for humans is 0.2s and the attack is dealing damage around 0.5s (I should really time this).

@Arkate #34
Did you even glance at my post #19 before reposting what you said in post #15?

As for the timing on the attack, I feel looking at a video is the best option. Also, this video has a player getting hit by one. I'll do a quick timer analysis of the videos and edit this post to have them - To avoid future guestimates. Also in the first video there are plenty of Mehca Knights to time as well.

*Edit #1
I measured 18 frames from when the thwacker raised its axes until when a player was began flinching (before damage was applied to health, but after the attack was acknowledged to hit). There were another 2 frames before the damage was applied. The video was playing at 25 fps, so the attack takes 0.7s from start to beginning.
Now for some other measurements for the reaction that must be done for this attack: It takes 10 frames for the knight to travel one square (measurement average in the first 5 seconds when they are walking vertical in second video). The spin attack allows the Thwacker to move ahead the diagonal of a square (1.4) in the process of this attack (second video at time 3m50s). I don't think there is a good way to measure the attack area of this swing.

Now for the interesting comparison. In the 20 frames it begins the attack, it will move a total of 1.4 squares towards you. Moving at 10 frames per square, you would move a maximum of 2 squares. This means if it only begins its attack when it could hit you, you need to be moving 70% of the time the attack is going on, or for about 0.49s. That leaves you 0.21s time for reacting to the attack itself. This is 0.01s more than average human reaction times. If you are not already moving as it begins the attack, it is very unlikely to avoid it, leaving you to activate a shield or dash in the 0.5s of time you have to react.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 19:24

#39

Its-Some-Secret

That's strange

Fought the darkfang thwacker on elite in an arena in Floor 25

Only did 9 Bars with full Ashtail and mighty defender
Sprite perk only increased health

As we know
Ashtail is normal/pierce

and Chaos
is normal/elemental

and thwackers deal elemental

yet you get 13 and I get 9

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS WORLD???

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 20:06

#40

Skepticraven

@Revolucas

Elite difficulty response.

I started doing some analysis on the different difficulties after reading that, specifically on the difficulty of normal. Interestingly enough, The first attack done by them (normal) delt 9.87 bars of damage (exactly the same on elite with this noob armor). It got really interesting when my health approached 10% though. When it got here, I took another 2 hits before I died (10% to 2% to 0%).
Interestingly I did get the throw attack this time, dealing 4.2 bars of damage. Also, the first attack and the second attack do not deal the same damage. On normal, the first swing deals 9.87 and the second 8.4. This is consistent damage when I am above 25% health. The damage is significantly reduced for any reductions below 25% (<5 bars of hp). (I did get one spin attack that brought me to 10% that delt 10.5 bars damage, but this is in the observed damage reduction zone).

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 20:08

#41

Skepticraven

@Its-Some-Secret

Which attack? That seems consistent if it was the normal first swing attack and NOT the spin attack. It seems very interesting if it was the spin attack.

Thu, 10/10/2013 - 20:46

#42

Its-Some-Secret

@Skepticrave

Both attacks

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 03:54

#43

Hexzyle

@Zeddy
I just assumed they were because they're a bit like Jelly Cubes but with more abilities. Their regular attacks also deals 125% of the damage that regular cubes do (although I haven't tested them when melted)

@Skepticraven

You missed a couple things that makes the Darkfang Thwackers seem weaker.

►Darkfang Thwackers have a dash that can be used offensively (not provoked by range attacks).

It's never used offensively. As I mentioned before, it's random and erratic, which is counterbalanced by Mecha Knight's aggressiveness and frontal immunity. Anyway, the majority of the time it's used in a backwards or sidewards direction, and it inflicts them with a long recovery just like the freeze-up with the Mecha shield.

►Darkfang Thwacker's attacks move themselves forward during the strike.
►Darkfang Thwackers can choose mid normal attack to either do one swing or two swings.

The attack movement is counterbalanced by their long freeze time for the attack. Can they change their swing direction mid-prep? I can't remember. The Gremlin's second swing, like Mecha Knight attacks, barely is an issue unless you're engaged in melee combat. Gremlins can cover knockback distance between the first and second swing with their long dash distance, but Mecha Knights rival this with relentlessness moving in your direction whether they're attacking or not. In direct combat, Mecha Knights can be predictably parried with a high knockback sword such as a Troika/Sealed Sword, but likewise, Gremlins are far more vunerable to knockdown.

►Darkfang Thwacker's spin attack actually does slightly move them towards the player attacking them. It is approximately half the distance traveled by one of their normal attacks.

I wasn't aware of this.

►Darkfang Thwackers have a run and heal strategy at low health, while Mecha Knights are of fight-to-death mentality.

That's still pretty balanced. Darkfangs are clusmy with their pathfinding to a corner to heal, as well as their pathfinding back into the fray. In addition, they can only heal once, and only heal enough to survive one or two additional attacks. Many a time they derp up so bad they just stand in the corner or even after they heal, they do not attack again.

►Mecha Knights take approximately 1.5s to charge their powerful attack, while Darkfang Thwackers can do their powerful attack in (approximately) 1/3rd the time.

I already mentioned this point. The Mecha Knight equivalant is that Darkfangs take approximately 1 second to charge each of their regular attacks, while Mecha Knights can unleash both within a second.

►Mecha Knights have a infrequent "shock self" attack which can deal shock status and injures itself.

The shock animation is part of the Mecha Knight's behaviour. Its team variable is "Monster-Inflicted" so it does not deal any damage to the Mecha Knight itself nor nearby monsters. Any nearby knights however will take damage and have a chance to recieve shock (although this never happens since people aren't that inclined to stand right next to Mecha Knights for the aforementioned reason :P)

►Mecha Knights have a reactive shield WITH a timed cooldown, making it approximately equivalent to the Darkfang's shield. The fact that they also cannot move when its in use is a significant disadvantage.

I already mentioned this point.

#1 is voided due to the Darkfang Thwacker's dash.
No it isn't. The Darkfang's dash is never used as an offensive technique. It is a random move with a random location, and isn't incorporated into the Gremlin's offensive AI. (although it would be awesome if it was) The dash, even when used while under fire, does not allow the Gremlin to dodge direct hits, it only makes it more difficult to land successive hits (but not impossible like the Mecha Knight's, and the Mecha Knight's shield blocks the first shot regardless of whether it was dead on or not)

#4 and #5 You are comparing part of a Mecha Knight's charge attack with the Darkfang Thwacker's range attack.

The Mecha Knight's charge attack (The 1 less frequently used of its 2 offensive abilities) is used the same frequency as the Thwacker's Spin attack and Throw attack combined. (The 2 less frequently used of its 4 offensive abilities) It is perfectly relevant.

#4 Stun is a status that all of Darkfang Thwacker attacks can deal. It is now a very weak status ever since the dash update BUT still a status that has the potential to cripple a fighting knight.

It's a situational thing. Just like how Shock, Fire, and Freeze can be horrible in certain situations. (although poison is laughable)

Even if we agree that all your points are correct and we've cancelled eachothers arguments out, we've only really proven that Gremlins are on par with Mecha Knights. Something which despite what I've said against your arguments here, I actually believe. Mechas can be fierce in combat, and Gremlins are elusive. Both require either a full-on defensive or offensive strategy to beat. Overcoming Mechas with offense simply requires a power threshold, while Gremlins require good timing. Overcoming with a defensive playstyle for Mechas requires a bit more skill and tactics, while Gremlins simply requires a ranged approach.

Y'know how I said Darkfangs are one of the few enemies I find enjoyable to fight? Mecha Knights are the other. Overtimers are too, identifying whether they're going to use their fast-tracking, shield-breaking melee attack or their slow-moving dodgable ranged attack is quite fun.

The Alpha wolver apparently is a brute, I think either because Nick said so, or because its health is on par with a Lumber. They're one of the nerfed enemies though, they used to have a nasty tracking bite. (as did all wolvers) Do a UGW run, and you'll see how fearsome the Alpha Wolvers were before they were nerfed.

@Zeddy
At the moment, you mostly just get defensive sets because they provide resistances to two statuses and 27 extra defence matters a lot for low-damaging stuff like bullets.

Yep. Hence why Jelly, Magic/Owlite, and Skelly lines have a high pure defense compared to their normal defense, as opposed to other armors of the same defensive rating like Ironmight/Azure, Breaker/Heater, and Almirian.

@Skepticraven
It got really interesting when my health approached 10% though. When it got here, I took another 2 hits before I died (10% to 2% to 0%). ... The damage is significantly reduced for any reductions below 25% (<5 bars of hp). (I did get one spin attack that brought me to 10% that delt 10.5 bars damage, but this is in the observed damage reduction zone).

http://hexzyle.tumblr.com/post/56854310960/hexs-lab-last-stand-strategy-ftw

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 05:02

#44

Zeddy

@Hexzyle

Considering Ice Cubes have a major weakness to every status except stun and freeze, and that fire renders them pretty much benign, the extra power is probably just to make up for that.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 05:52

#45

Midnight-Dj

I don't get it, Gremlin thwaker is the 'Jack of all trade' enemy when you think about it. They have good melee attack, a ranged attack that stunts (allows it to close distance with the knight.) Fairly dodgy, but not as evasive at devilite, it has shield defence but not as fortified as trolljans. It has an ultimate attack, not as powerful as the ones of a mecha knight(status inflicting). It self-heals, but not alot like the toxoil when they walks over shadow fire. It is a balanced enemy, and only a balanced player can beat him, over relying on any weapon against the thwaker is a mistake.

So I don't see why they need to be nerfed.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 07:54

#46

Skepticraven

@Hexzyle

[Referring to the dash being used offensively]
It's never used offensively. As I mentioned before, it's random and erratic, which is counterbalanced by Mecha Knight's aggressiveness and frontal immunity. Anyway, the majority of the time it's used in a backwards or sidewards direction, and it inflicts them with a long recovery just like the freeze-up with the Mecha shield.

Its used about as common as their range attack. One key note in the animation difference is that defensively it gets 3 "sweat beads" that appear over its head. Offensively, it does not. Take a look at the first video I referenced at t=11m10s. The top left Thwacker dashes down into an attack (which in some cases I have observed the spin attack). I'm surprised you were unaware of 2 aspects (offensive dash and the step-spin) of these Thwackers, given the quality of information you have already provided.

Also, sorry that I haven't read everything on the forums (if you mentioned that research here) and your personal tumbler account feed. I found something interesting while doing damage analysis and presented it.

Fri, 10/11/2013 - 08:20

#47

Battlegrinder

@Skepticraven

Tactic to dodge spin attack: Use the Dash ability. Though given that I use a blackhawk, I'm usually not in range of most gremlin attacks.

Sat, 10/12/2013 - 08:52

#48

Skepticraven

Additional Damage Comparisons

(Edit due to #49: Volt) Mecka Knight Damage (wearing my junk armor, D24 Ghosts prestige, elite difficulty)
8.4 bars damage for their normal (first) swing attack.
12.6 bars damage for their charge attack.
The (Volt) Mecha Knight deals about 20% less damage than the Thwacker.

Sat, 10/12/2013 - 01:28

#49

Hexzyle

Hmm. Perhaps that's intentional by the developers since Mecha Knights frequently are imbued with status? It's a general rule of this game to have status dealing enemies/weapons to do 20% less damage than their counterpart.
GitM, that's Volt Knights right? Perhaps non-status Knights do the same damage.

Sat, 10/12/2013 - 08:55

#50

Skepticraven

@Hexzyle

I still think comparison vs the status Knight is valid, considering all Thwackers do have the chance for stun. (Also edited previous post to further clarify that they are the volt knights)

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