We should probably update the guides/what we tell people based on the high cost of heating 5* weapons
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 12:36
0. I just advised a 4* knight NOT to upgrade his khorovod to a sudaruska.
1. Sudaruska/Khorovod both require their charge attacks to be worthwhile. All bombs, the brandishes, catalyzers, leviathan blade, thorn blades etc. also require their charge attacks to compete with weapons that don't need CTR. Wait no, the brandishes just kill everything regardless of their heat. My bad.
2. The knight in question would be unable to run shadow lairs for money. Khorovod/Sudaruska+plate mail won't get him anywhere. This means that to upgrade his Sudaruska to 5*, the knight would have to pay the supply depot. In fact, quite a few knights are shockingly unable to run UFSC on elite mode daily to receive their fire crystals to make their first set of 5* gear. Buying the fire shards with the crowns that they've earned would take them quite a while, might not pan out well (if the another source of radiants is found), and prevents them from making gear that would help them more than heating their one 5* weapon.
3. Taking this on the whole, all 4* weapons with "usable" charge attacks are now better than their 5* counterparts.
4. Actually, as Zeddy points out, if you cannot get a weapon fully heated or at least heated to around level 7 or 8, it will simply be a downgrade from the superior 4* version in terms of damage. The only (real, real meaning that you want to improve your gear) reason to upgrade at that point would be some sort of a difference in functionality, e.g. another bounce on your alchemer.
I would like to see revisions made to the guides on the wiki, as well as Bopp's sword guide based on the fact that 4* knights upgrading to 5* will be unable to heat their weapons in a timely manner. We set the standards for pretty much anyone that speaks English and plays Spiral Knights, and I would say that this is a noteworthy change in the game.
Specifically, there needs to be an easily removable (as this balance could change) section that comes before the 5* descriptions of weapons etc. explaining to newer players why they can't have the "good gear" until they're able to beat UFSC, are using 5* weapon trinkets, or find enough time to farm 5* fire crystals. Chaos set would also remedy this, though most knights would have a hard time playing with chaos as their first set once they reached 5*, and would likely be better off not using charge attacks.
The other point to this is that when people come on here asking stuff about "which 5* gear is better", this should be first on your mind when you respond. "What should my 5* gear be?" should be answered with "Your 5* gear should be kept at 4* until you are prepared to heat it."
The "new" way to use weapons should go something like:
0. Craft weapons to 4*.
1. Build 5*/armors to support your 4* weapons.
2. Eventually find the resources to heat the weapons, focusing solely on the weapon you want to heat. Crafting other weapons is great, but since you can't heat them to 10, it just wastes crowns that could be spent on going to UFSC/buying from the supply depot. This should be done after they've made most of their arsenal, and have little else to do.
3. Once enough resources are farmed to heat the weapon up a good bit, craft the 5* and proceed as usual.
Thanks, Fehzor.
I don't think that I used any foul or even remotely questionable language in this post, but if I did I would like to first apologize and second ask for someone to tell me so that I can change it before my ability to post is removed.
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 15:32
#2
"I find it rather obvious. They made most 5* ones 4* to make sure that people can actually get the Obsidian items in time. What about after the event? I think it will stay like this for a while to make people use energy to buy Radiants they need oh so much for their new weapons."
I think you meant for me to find this blurb of text? I'd like to see/have a developer confirm any sort of logic like this, because to my knowledge "they" haven't said anything. This leads me to believe that it was either entirely intentional, or will become one of those buggy things the developers ignore all notion of eternally. Kind of like that wall bug, where every other weapon's attacks get stuck in walls due to the DA fix like 2 years ago..
If they were going to add in more shining crystals to promote the halloween update, I think they would have done something to prevent us from freaking out about it.
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 16:09
#3
@Fehzor
Fehzor !! Where have you been....
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 17:37
#4
I request for a mod to sticky this thread.
By the way, heat matters for more than just CTR. 5* weapons don't reach the damage of their 4* counterparts until level 8 or so.
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 17:45
#5
5* weapons don't reach the
5* weapons don't reach the damage of their 4* ones until level 8????????
Is this for both PvE and PvP?
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 17:48
#6
response
It's good to see you back.
Thank you for indexing your points from 0. This makes it easier for me to access my RAM.
I am trying to figure out what to do about the difficulty of heating 5-star weapons, in my sword guide and forum posts. Perhaps the drought of 5-star fire crystals is a temporary phenomenon. There are sporadic reports of drop rates increasing again. I'd like to see how things shake out. But I do agree with your argument so far. Our guides will not remain relevant and useful if they stick to a pre-Forge worldview.
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 18:31
#7
@Zeddy
Good idea, I'll update the OP to reflect on the damage aspect of things.
@Bopp
Really? People have found drop rates increasing again? As in... it isn't going on, or do you mean rumors about OOO doing this/that?
Tue, 10/29/2013 - 19:23
#8
@Offense-Armor
There's no difference in raw weapon damage for PvE and PvP.
And it depends a bit. At level 1, depth 23, a 5* weapon will lack 25% of its full damage. The gain is exponential, which means the first 5 levels will barely do anything and then the next 5 will count for a lot more.
Coelydragon has some test results on heat and damage here.
Wed, 10/30/2013 - 09:05
#9
Fehzor
I haven't had to pay attention to drop rates myself. So I know about them only through forum posters, which of course aren't reliable.
There is also a "conspiracy theory" that many 5-star fire crystal drops were converted into 4-star drops, so that people can heat their 4-star gear and craft Obsidian weapons before the Apocrea event ends. The idea is that perhaps 5-star drops will return to normal after the event. Due to such rumors, I don't plan to make any major changes to my guide until after the event finishes and the long-term trend is clear.
Wed, 10/30/2013 - 09:30
#10
@Bopp
Yes, I wrote about that a while ago. You can find my thoughts on it here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/92085#comment-819080
Wed, 10/30/2013 - 14:46
#11
I honestly doubt that the developers would change the drop rates for an event, but I suppose this can wait, even if just a bit.
Wed, 10/30/2013 - 17:31
#12
@above
I agree. OOO hasn't done anything like that in the past.
I'm not sure what to think at this moment. They can't just eschew 5* crystals, that'd be crazy..
I'll be extremely happy if it is just for the event, believe me. But at the moment, I doubt that.
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 17:26
#13
So, it's November 2nd. How about we give it until next Wednesday at around Noon, before we dispel the entirely unconfirmed theory with no hard evidence regarding the radiant fire crystals and start thinking about updating the guides? Or perhaps we should do it before then, whenever the Apocrea mission is gone?
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 17:30
#14
November 6th sounds alright. I'd wait until the 13th just to be sure, though.
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 17:45
#15
Wolfe-knight applauds
I am fine with waiting until the 13th, I have said a few times the radiant drought is something to do with the apocrea event. If it isnt fixed by then I will most likely join the hoards of players with my pitchfork.
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 17:46
#16
Why the 13th? Wouldn't they the developers change the rates back before then?
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 17:49
#17
@Fehzor
Do I have to say..
DA charge?
Locker room bug?
AT requiring toggle?
No. I think Nov 13 2015 sounds accurate.
Sat, 11/02/2013 - 17:52
#18
Wolfe-knight applauds
@Krakob
sound legit, though I think DA charge will take more time.
I only said the 13th to have a max time to wait, minimum I am guessing is the 4th. After the 13th there is no hope for my cause. I said it has been linked with apocrea since the start and if it makes it to the 13th I might as well be a liar.
Mon, 11/04/2013 - 16:00
#19
Actually yes, explain all of those and why they correlate to the 13th.
Those are the reason that we'd be doing this. The developers often take between half a year to indefinitely to fix things; entire generations of players will have played the game and left by then.
-----------
So... nothing so far, eh?
Tue, 11/05/2013 - 05:05
#20
I was mostly referring to how those bugs have been around since forever, so this might take a while. If we're lucky, they'll fix it tomorrow and if not, it's very possible that they do the 13th this month. 2015 was a joke.
Tue, 11/05/2013 - 06:47
#21
still deciding
I'm still deciding what to do. I might just add a section "Heating" to talk about this issue. The alternative seems heavy-handed: Discuss all of the 4-star swords, in addition to the 5-star swords. Suddenly sworders have only Ash Tail armor, and many abilities change from +2 to +1. Or I could go into more detail, about how heating armor is not as important as heating weapons to get CTR.
The first step in writing a good guide is deciding what to say and what not to say. Then you have to figure out a good way to explain the important stuff. Then you decide that some less important stuff can be easily included, and some important stuff can be excluded. It takes a long time to refine a good guide, to explain the most important concepts efficiently. (Then Three Rings alters drop rates and you have to rewrite.)
Thu, 11/21/2013 - 13:26
#22
Most of the balance between 4* items is the same as it is for 5* items, and most armors can be upgraded to 5* and kept at level 1 due to the nature of their offensive buff... So my thought is to make a heating section and put it onto the top of every guide.
This section would be called something like "The Heating Dilemna" and would have the following information:
0. At level one, 5* weapons have much less damage than their 4* counterparts, and lack charge time reduction bonuses.
1. Due to the rarity of radiant fire crystals, it is adviseable not to craft any of the following 5* items until you are able to heat them. (list)
2. These fire crystals can be found at Depth 28 (directly before the core) or in shadow lairs- you will need to be at your best to harvest them.
3. However, the balance and use of these items remains the same at 4*.
4. Armor buffs are mostly offensive, and are not effected by heat.
The list of items would be up for discussion. For swords, it'd probably be something like:
Sudaruska
Triglav
Combuster
Glacius
Voltedge
Acheron
Dread Venom Striker
Wilde Hunting Blade
Gran Faust
Divine Avenger (unless you have 5* sword ctr trinkets/chaos?)
Final Flourish
Daring Rigadoon
Flaming Flamberg
Barbarous Thorn Blade
Leviathan Blade
Cold Iron Vanquisher
The only sword that would always be better than its 4* counterpart at level 1 would be the obsidian edge, as it gains poison. Unless you've got a bunch of sword CTR stuff, in which case DA's charge would put it above avenger. Though that is arguable. Maybe take DA off the list, as it could be seen as better... though which would you rather have? DA's charge at no CTR, or avenger's at +2 CTR?
----- UPDATE -----
I guess really this should be done after the end of the Arcade Reconstruction/Gunner Update. But if it gets to that point, I feel this will be 100% necessary.
Fri, 11/22/2013 - 08:36
#23
yes, waiting
It does seem that the 5-star fire crystal drought is intentional and ongoing. So we'll have to do something. Instead of a single "Heat" section that mentions various specific swords, I might add a "Heat" subsection to each section of my guide --- e.g. elemental swords. Doing this succinctly will be a challenge.
The Acheron imbalance is throwing off the entire "damage type is the primary consideration" idea, maybe forcing a complete rewrite of my guide. I intend to wait for the gunner update, or possibly even the new rank missions. Those are opportunities for Three Rings to balance damage numbers a bit (optimistic, I know), or to reveal why they have been so imbalanced.
Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:01
#24
It's a Concrete Jungle out there
I've heard before that OCH drops a fair amount of Rads on Tier 3. Haven't tested it myself yet, though...
Fri, 11/22/2013 - 11:46
#25
Come to think of it, isn't Seerus' throne room with all the boxes at depth 29? That's sure to give a lot of radiants.
Edit:
Did a 4-man run. Two of us got 9 radiants, the other two got 12.
Fri, 11/22/2013 - 16:32
#26
From that limited data-pool, 11 radiants per run means around 40 runs to heat a single item. Even if you were just unlucky and got 1/2 the number of drops, that's still 20 runs through OCH for a single item. Try again.
Fri, 11/22/2013 - 16:59
#27
UFSC gives the most at 60-70
UFSC gives the most at 60-70 per run. That's 7 runs for a single item. 7 SL runs.
Fri, 11/22/2013 - 18:04
#28
Seven SL runs for a single item, you say? I'm bored. So...
Let's do some math for this, then. Note, these are all rough estimations, but the concept remains the same.
Granted each run you do, you pay 450 CE to split the cost of the key. Let us assume 1 CE = 80 CR. That would mean your share for a key costs 36,000 crowns. In Elite UFSC, you net roughly 20,000 cr, and a Maiden's tear. Maiden's Tear sells for roughly 14,000 crowns as of the time of this post. Let's assume you find someone to sell it for 15,000 cr via Auction House. You get 13,500 cr, in addition to the 20,000 from the run. So, you get roughly 60 Radiants, with 33,500 crowns. You only lose 2,500 cr, but you profit much more, as the value of 50 Radiants would cost you 56,000 cr. So, all in all, the value of doing a Shadow Lair run is 69,500 crowns, netting you a gain of +33,500 crowns in value. Let's assume you use 5 Sparks of Life. 20 CE per Spark = 1600 cr, so that means you spent 8,000, cutting into your profit to make it 25,500 crowns.
Meaning if you do 7 Shadow Lair runs (and do not consume a single Spark, but I can't even pull that off), you will profit in value of 234,500 crowns, as opposed to buying the Radiants straight up. If you consume 5 sparks per run, your profit is still 157,500 crowns in value. A worthy investment if you have the patience for it and are sick of standard FSC.
The biggest problem, however, is finding a group to run with. Sigh.
Sat, 11/23/2013 - 11:10
#29
My concern isn't my ability to heat my items, but the ability of 4* knights to heat their items... I just can't see most 4* knights logging on to farm UFSC.
Sat, 11/23/2013 - 12:00
#30
Yeah, aren't the shadow lairs
Yeah, aren't the shadow lairs supposed to be for 5* players wanting to do a harder challenge and to get the special armors (Snarby, etc.)?
Sun, 11/24/2013 - 20:57
#31
So, the gunner update has been moved back to January. Does this change things? I'd say so, provided that there isn't an "arcade reconstruction part II" right around the corner. And a question- if I write a section of some sort here, will someone who is probably Bopp be able to copy+paste it to the wiki? We can all discuss what goes into it first, of course.
Sun, 11/24/2013 - 20:58
#32
I don't mind posting on the Wiki for you. Couldn't you jut use your original account though?
EDIT: That secret edit.
Sun, 11/24/2013 - 21:09
#33
Steam is my original account... but that's beside the point.
Sun, 11/24/2013 - 21:45
#34
drafting text here is fine
The Wiki Editors forum is a better place, but sure --- draft the text here, and we can all comment on it.
Wed, 01/08/2014 - 23:47
#35
People really need to know
People really need to know how awful this is. It is horribly counterintuitive especially for people just reaching the 5* certification mission that most 5* weapons will be this bad with no way to heat them in a decent amount of time without spending cash.
Level 8 is still pretty bad for a lot of 5* weapons. Elemental brandishes still don't match the damage on swings but can make out a bit better on the charge assuming all projectiles connect or you hit more enemies. If the punching bags were deep in strata 6, it would probably fare a bit better but at the expense of the other strata.
vs elemental weak enemies - Tier 3 (depth 23) punching bag
1st/2nd, 3rd, charge, charge projectiles
blazebrand level 10 (no bonus)
252 337 517 154
blazebrand level 10 (max bonus)
363 462 685 213
combuster level 1 (no bonus)
187 235 391 112
combuster level 1 (max bonus)
261 340 529 141 (I think I saw 157 too so not sure on this)
combuster level 5 (no bonus)
206 261 428 124
combuster level 5 (max bonus)
293 374 575 172
combuster level 6 (no bonus)
212 276 448 130
combuster level 6 (max bonus)
312 393 600 181
combuster level 7 (no bonus)
227 293 468 137
combuster level 7 (max bonus)
328 411 625 190
combuster level 8 (no bonus)
238 311 489 143
combuster level 8 (max bonus)
344 429 650 199
combuster level 9 (no bonus)
251 328 512 151
combuster level 9 (max bonus)
362 450 678 209
combuster level 10 (no bonus)
265 345 535 159
combuster level 10 (max bonus)
380 471 707 220
More data just to show how horrible it is when comparing the 5*'s strength vs the 4*'s neutral. I think silent nightblade currently has the same base damage as blazebrand (,with different split types, so they should have the same damage to neutral targets). The level 10 blazebrand/silent nightblade would be better against neutral targets than a level 6 combuster is against elemental weak targets on normal strikes, which is just sad.
vs neutral - Tier 3 (depth 23) punching bag
1st/2nd, 3rd, charge, charge projectiles
silent nightblade level 10 (no bonus)
185 276 455 110
silent nightblade level 10 (max bonus)
301 400 623 152
Sat, 12/07/2013 - 21:27
#36
great, but
Thanks for gathering these data. :)
But what does "based on silent nightblade" mean? Does it mean that you measured Silent Nightblade? If so, then please just say that. (If you want to add an editorial prediction, such as "Blazebrand is probably the same", then go ahead. But it's important to be clear about what is observed and what is inferred. People may be referring to your data two years from now.)
Sat, 12/07/2013 - 22:18
#37
I editing my post to try and
I editing my post to try and clarify the last bit of data. I probably still haven't worded it that well since I am about to go to bed.
Sun, 12/08/2013 - 02:50
#38
Keeping the 4* gear is a good
Keeping the 4* gear is a good idea, but there is a huge problem with that. HALL OF HEROES, you need to get the 5* gear to continue it, yes the game forces you to downgrade. I know that OOO will probably fix this when they release the next arcade patch, but that will probably take an other 6 months until we finally get that, something also tells me that OOO wants us to work very hard for our radiants. One thing still annoys me, they can do little updates like the gobble snipe box, but they can't fix a simple thing like that or some animations that only take like 1 minute to fix(Yes, i know how to fix the animations, but we don't have a animation editor...)
Sun, 12/08/2013 - 06:19
#39
Oh, my poor bombs...
Bombers definitely get the worst of this radiant drought, since 5* bombs really are a lot better--although I don't know how bombs scale up in damage, if it's like other 4* weapons. However, since CTR instead of damage is more of the problem with mist and vortex bombs, using a sprite bomb CTR perk in addition to the same gear used to get CTR max before the pet update should work.
Sun, 12/08/2013 - 10:04
#40
The game forcing you to downgrade to 5* is a problem, yes. But keep in mind that your armor probably needs an upgrade anyway- if you're using vog etc. then you'll benefit largely from crafting up a level. For this reason, I'd have to say that upgrading to 5* shouldn't be such an issue... the weapon that you upgrade could also be a less effected one, or you could make something goofy for kicks like iron slug, as that'd be worthless regardless of how you heated it. I have no idea about the workings of shields, but upgrading to heater shield would be an optimal path to 5*.
Sun, 12/08/2013 - 17:20
#41
The problem with weapons
The problem with weapons being downgraded is that you will be having a party carrying you if you use your "upgraded" weapon or go much more slowly solo until you get the item heated up. Without spending cash, you currently need to farm for a whole lot of hours for radiants or money to buy them just to get them to the effectiveness of the 4* weapon.
From what I read, lower levels didn't add much to damage and level 7-8 to get the item to previous or better damage. I went to FSC with a the level 5 combuster after doing several RJP runs to heat it. I figured it would be slightly worse but okay dps. It seemed horrible to me, and people wondered why my dps was so bad. They couldn't believe I had any damage bonus let alone ultra. I felt terrible.
"Upgraded" weapons shouldn't need to be heated in lower levels, suffered through shoddy dps in higher levels, or force you to use a weapon slot upgrade just to be merely as good as 4*. It didn't make sense with the old heating system, and it is so much worse with the new one. Running RJP (where no radiants drop) to get the weapon to level 8 which is still arguably worse than the 4* weapon is not good gameplay.
Three Rings should make 5* weapons an upgrade or on par at level 1 or 2 so that people can feel good about getting them. Armor doesn't really have this issue since most gain status resists and/or bonuses. Barbarous thorn shield gets a damage bonus. Crest of Almire gains fire and shock resistance. I am unsure how well other shields fare from 4* to 5*. I doubt it is much difference to be worth upgrading shields that don't gain bonuses unless you can fully heat them. 5* shields and armor are certainly viable even at level 1 unlike weapons.
Mon, 12/09/2013 - 09:24
#42
I like my poker. Don't judge me.
Wow. I probably shouldn't have crafted my Levi.
But it's a good thing to know that I should go for my Vog set first! :D
Thanks Fehzor! (And everyone else!)
Sun, 12/08/2013 - 18:52
#43
So... In a way we are forced to use offensive armor to do good damage. Looking at this is just sad. The state of this game right now.... So you can' choose the armor you want
pretty much... This is terrible. First of all, the lag is terrible so people can't survive Shadow lairs. Second of all, where are they gonna farm for money? RJP gives too little. And they would be useless in FSC. Then third of all, they are not going to find a willing team let alone one that is skilled enough. The Radiant drought is tearing the game apart. If it isn't fixed then we are really messed up and we wil lose a lot of players. Please OOO give us a sign you are fixing this or start fixing it. Now.
Sun, 12/08/2013 - 19:02
#44
---
Maybe they're just trying to maximize profits before... you know...
I hope that's not true and I have my doubts, but the thought keeps returning to me.
Sun, 12/22/2013 - 18:10
#45
5* level 9 elemental
5* level 9 elemental brandishes still do slightly less base damage than max level 4* elemental brandishes. (My above post has the stats.)
Sun, 12/22/2013 - 21:29
#46
^At D23.
Once you get to
^At D23.
Once you get to D28, big difference is made.
Mon, 12/23/2013 - 09:43
#47
Most people do more than just
Most people do more than just run the KoA mission. It will have a 9th level 5* elemental brandish will have lowered base damage for the majority of floors. It is a horrible game mechanic that the scaling and leveling works this way.
Pay Three Rings $9.95 for 3500 energy per 5* weapon to do less damage than the 4* version. Pay them $19.95 to do more. Get seven 5* items max level for the low price of $99.95. Welcome new Spiral Knights players.
Edit:
Orbs are great and allow players to get new gear easier. It allows new players to get farther into the game before reaching what would be considered a paywall. The problem is that the 5* weapon "upgrade" is a deceitful downgrade. It feels like Three Rings is screwing you over due to it being much worse with no realistic way for new knights to even get back to the damage of 4* weapons without paying real money or grinding forever with or without that crappy weapon.
Lots of new players will find out too late how bad it is, and the in game gear check forces you to "upgrade" a weapon in order to continue missions. If the weapons were considered on par or close to it at first level, then it would not be bad. Helms, armor, and shields don't have this issue and you don't hear much complaining about them. You'd still have people complain about it being more expensive to pay with energy, but people wouldn't feel cheated. Three Rings's horrible weapon leveling breeds hatred when it should make inspire you to upgrade and watch it get better than the 4* at every level.
Mon, 12/23/2013 - 10:53
#48
Hear, hear! An update that
Hear, hear! An update that that changed this weird leveling/higher star items with less power thing would be great--as long as it came with radiants.
Wed, 01/08/2014 - 12:07
#49
done
I've added a little heating/upgrading advice to my sword guide. Nothing big or surprising.
Thu, 01/09/2014 - 00:12
#50
Bopp, I think level 5 is way too low
Bopp, I think level 5 is way too low as a general sword upgrade level. I would recommend at least level 8 or 9 unless it really gains something extra like Acheron damage or more projectiles like the brandish lines and divine avenger. I got data at all FSC depths for blitz damage and depth 23 punching bag. It seems to also have the same leveling pattern as the elemental brandishes. It will be in my next few posts.
I edited my previous post anymore to show combuster level 10 damage vs the tier 23 punching bag. Level 10 blitz data from FSC will probably be posted tomorrow.
P.S. I really hate taking this data and it shows in my shoddy work. I almost didn't record it due to the data possibly changing in the gunner update.
Welcome back, Fehzor! We've missed you. The people around are driving me nuts!
I'd like you to take this into consideration. Do note that I will indeed have to post that link so many times I'm going to, as you once suggested Bopp should, link to where I last used the link rather than link to the actual post I intend to show.