Suche

Log in to post on the forums

I can design a better anti-gremlin bomb with my face tied behind my back!

104 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy

Index:

Anti-Family Weapons

Making existing weapons grow more interesting at each crafting level

Unrelated

All ideas have been bounced off, and some even suggested by Krakob. Thanks, Krakob! Also thanks to Luguiru, whose boundless enthusiasm for balancing stuff and quirky brand of humour inspires me. Every bit of your nitpick is appreciated!

Anti-gremlin bomb

This is the description for Dark Retribution: "The perfected version of the shadowy bomb that Warmaster Seerus engineered with the sole purpose of eliminating other gremlins that stood in his way. It is thought to have been reserved for use against other members of the Crimson Order."

With the sole purpose. Seerus made this bomb specifically to kill Gremlins with, so why do I feel like I'd rather be using it on skeletons? Here are some things that will kill gremlins faster than DR:

-The anti-slime bomb Ionized Salt Bomb
-Dark Briar Barrage
-Graviton Vortex, and very possibly Electron Vortex
-Nitronome, Big Angry Bomb and Irontech
-Callahan
-Probably vases
-Ash of Agni

When designing an anti-something weapon it's not enough to simply slap "Shadow damage" or "Very High versus Fiends" on it and call it a day. You have to make sure the very nature of the weapon is efficient against the monster family for which the weapon was intended. During the course of this topic I will design an anti-family sword, gun and bomb for each family, making for at least 18 weapons. Some will be original, others modifications of existing ones. We'll start with the anti-gremlin bomb.

Gremlins are agile little turds, with relatively small hitboxes compared to for example slimes, undead or wolvers. They are frequently shielded and the gremlins healers are able heal and revive eachother. Gremlins will often run away when low on health. Due to their erratic movement, and anti-gremlin bomb has to meet these criteria:

-Cover a large area so that hitting a gremlin is not based on luck and obscure kiting, also useful for revealing gremlin recons
-Be conducive to hitting gremlins when their shield is facing in the right direction. This either means being instant or persistent. The first option is not viable for bombs.
-Just knock gremlins down so we don't have to worry about movement and shielding shenanigans.

Dark Retribution fills the second criteria, but due to not meeting the first one it doesn't help much. Dark Briar Barrage meets the first and third criteria and therefore fills the role better. We could just make DBB have shadow damage and be done for the day. In fact, I think it should be shadow/piercing. Snarbolax has a shadow/piercing.. theme to it. Some Snarby gear has shadow, other has piercing. All of it should be shadow/piercing both to make it fit thematically and to diversify gear choices more. Split damage is probably not going to make a return though, so here's the next best thing:

Magnetic Wave
** Magnetic Wave (Since Dark Reprisal was ** this shall be also even though I don't understand the reasoning behind it)
*** Magnetic Wave MkII
***** Magnetic Tsunami
Shadow damage, base damage is around 55 on depth 25.

The Magnetic Field is a device that emits a field of pure, non-knockback, non-interrupting damage over time. The charge time, range, fuse time and duration is identical to haze bombs of equivalent level. The observant reader will notice that this is just an Ash of Agni that only works while the enemy is within the boundaries of the bomb. Indeed so! The potential damage is higher, however, since one can stack several bombs over eachother. Gremlins can run around all they want, but haze bombs are able to cover a very large area. If spread out correctly, there should always be at least one bomb hitting them around the shields due to a bomb emitting from either side of them, as well.

Edited for clarity: The effect would not be a permanent field, but rather with a delay between them looking very much like that of Grim Totem's. The rate of fire would match the ticks from fire damage.

Crazy bonus idea of the day
Some of these weapons I'll post have some wacky oddball ideas attached to them. This is the least wacky out of them all.

Basically, to make it more anti-gremlin, it should have a unique property that's only useful against gremlins. If a Mortafire drops its gear within the range of a Magnetic Wave, the gear will be sucked onto the bomb where it will remain for the bomb's duration. The Mortafire will be unable to pick the gear up until the bomb expires, although knights can. It can be made wackier yet by having Mortafires automatically drop their gear within its range.

Only one piece of Mortafire gear may be held up per bomb.

Mortafires are not difficult, but rather frustrating and time-wasting to fight. The intention of this mechanic is to speed the process up.

Next up: Anti-beast sword.

Bild des Benutzers Juances
Juances

Good enough against monsters. But constant damage wont work on LD.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Agni + Retribution

It would be overpowered because it combines the features of two bombs which already exist. The effects of Vaporizers is deflected if the target has a shield facing the epicenter so a damagable point is not linkable to the epicenter, in your mechanic it affects the whole area regardless. DRetribution has about 46 base/neutral damage around D25 per hit, yours has 55 in the same scenario. The "crazy" part would make rocketeers/Mortafires unnecessarily easy and detracts from Graviton.

Before you try to make a weapon to counter the easiest family remember we have Flourishes.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Well

@Juances

Then it's a good thing we're not fighting gremlins in Lockdown!

@Luguiru

The bomb would emit damage from the epicenter just like any other. The reason it can be used to get around shields is that with enough CTR, 2-3 of them can be out at the same time. I set the base damage from looking up Ash of Agni's fire damage and the idea is that the ticks would be no faster than that. DR on the other hand has a pretty hefty rate of fire. Ash of Agni and Magnetic Wave would have separate purposes in that MW would be more active while AoA's effect lingers outside the range and after the duration of its haze.

I've edited the original post to reflect this.

I'll get to the anti-gremlin sword later. :] Edit: Oh right talking about beasts. I have a reason for not appointing flourish to this task.

Bild des Benutzers Addisond
Addisond
:o

I'm gonna have to check back on this day to day. First one seems kinda simplistic, but it fits the bill nicely.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-family weapons thread II: Anti-family harder

The Anti-beast sword

The first thing on your mind now is probably "Why make an anti-beast sword? Flourish is perfect for everything!" There are a couple of reasons. First of all, piercing weapons need more variety. There is only one piercing sword, negligible variations excluded, of course. Meanwhile, there are at least four distinct elemental swords. Piercing weapons is also an area in which heavy swords are completely lacking.

Plus, spears are cool.

Beasts are not difficult to fight, but they appear in large groups and teleport around like dogs without Y-chromosomes. The Flourish is vastly overqualified for killing beasts, speed-wise, and as such I think an anti-beast sword should trade speed for coverage and damage in order to kill beasts with more efficiency.

Before presenting the new idea, let's have a look at the current anti-beast sword.

Pitiful. Normal damage! High bonus against beasts, sure, but if you were to gear up in full skolver and equip a Barbarous Thorn Shield that bonus would go to waste. Meanwhile, Dread Venom Striker would output the same damage and also poison the beasts. What kind of anti-beast variant of a sword is outperformed in its own territory by the very sword from which it sprung off?

Easily solved, however! See how the sword is freaking covered with spikes? It should inflict normal/piercing damage. Swords are in the area where split normal/special is actually stronger than pure special, so that would give it an edge over Flourish right there. The movement pattern when using the cutter is as such that you constantly move around the battlefield, subtly but surely avoiding the simple beast attacks, making it ideal for fighting a pack of wolvers.

It's a spear
*** Hunting Spear
**** Hunting Javelin
***** Whale Hunting Harpoon (replace whale with equivalent SK universe creature)
Piercing damage, base damage is identical to Gran Faust and Divine Avenger (241, 338, 545 and 119 on the first hit, second hit, charge attack and charge projectile).

At 3*, this is just a big stick with a piercing blade at the end. The charge attack is a strong stab that inflicts about twice the damage of the regular stab. The line has a two-hit combo similar to the Troika and Sealed Swords, with the second swipe replaced by a stab. One uses the swing to knock back surrounding mobs so that they're clear when using the followup stabbing attack. This stab send the user forward about a tile and a half while the reach of the attack itself is a full three tiles. Width is sacrificed in lieu of length with this heavy sword.

The 4* Hunting Javelin has a rope attached to its end. After charging, the user throws the javelin a set distance (somewhere in the area of 6 tiles). While traveling, the Javelin acts like the charge projectiles from the sealed sword upgrades, with the exception of it traveling much faster in general, and the speed decreasing at the end rather than increasing. It'll land after this set distance hurt enemies for charge damage in a 1-tile radius around the landing point. After this, the spear is pulled back via the rope attached on its back. The spear will once again act as a charge projectile on its way back to the user. The result should be higher damage to targets at the front at the expense of being vulnerable during the charge animation.

The 5* is identical, but it's a giant, metal harpoon and stronger. There's a chain instead of a rope as well. The charge attack for both the Javelin and Harpoon is uninterruptible, mostly for aesthetic purposes.

Wacky bonus idea of the day! (Now with 20% less wacky!)
I'm imaging the spear used to get the enemy's attention. The large are of coverage and damage should make sure of this. But what does a spear-wielder do when confronted with an alpha wolver about to charge into his face? Run?

Hell naw. The followup stab with the spear-line will be the only attack in the game capable of interrupting alpha wolver attacks. Before you're going to suggest anything to the effect this being overpowered somehow, consider that beasts are the weapon's only practical purpose. What else will you use a heavy piercing sword for? Devilites? Greavers? It could maybe see use on Trojans.

You might suggest it's unnecessary since beasts are easy anyway in which case I don't really care. I'm a man with a mission and that mission is designing anti-family weapons even for families where it isn't even remotely needed. Plus, it's a short-sighted way to think. Beasts should be buffed in some manner other than cheaty teleportation to make them somewhat worthy opponents again. And when they are, we'll have just the weapon to fight them with.

Next up: Anti-fiend gun.

Bild des Benutzers Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

How the hell do you tie your face behind your back?
Also, your Hunting Javelin sounds fun. I'd like to try that one out sometime...

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti Family Weapons III: Return of Anti-Family Weapons

@Aureate: I use duct tape, but you could pull it off with rope.

The anti-fiend gun

I've seen a lot of topics suggesting a piercing damage Antigua upgrade. People were complaining about the piercing/shadow variety of it, so they probably don't want to use it for wolvers. One must assume the piercing antigua-upgrades would be used for fiends. I don't think it'd cut the mustard. You could use it, but I think the amount of time Antigua leaves you slowed down and low interruption power would make for a pretty subpar anti-fiend gun. Keep in mind, I've never actually used Antigua or any of its upgrades, although I've seen it used much by my friends.

An anti-fiend gun should:
-Have some interruption capability, to stop Greavers
-Have fast bullets, perhaps even not activate dodging in the same manner Callahan does in order to hit dodging Devilites
-Interfere as little as possible with mobility, to defend against incoming hails of Devilite furniture
-Be able to inflict lots of damage during a small window, so that killing Trojans can be done in a reasonable amount of time
-Be available in 2* format. Gunners do not have any 2* piercing options.

Of the current piercing guns, Antigua fills criteria 2 and arguably 3. Blitz and Plague meets criteria 1 and 4. Callahan meets 1 and 2, We need something in between that can meet all of these criteria.

It's a piercing Blaster
** Staker
*** Super Staker
**** Master Staker
***** Conviction
Piercing damage, base damage of 108 at depth 25, the charge projectiles do the same.

It's a gun. It's gun that shoots swords. The Staker is similar in form and function to Blaster. A stake can be seen poking out of the barrel, and the Conviction has an attachment underneath that looks like it might be able to shoot grenades or something but actually does nothing.

The biggest differences between Staker and Blaster is
a) The knockback has been traded out in exchange for not triggering dodge-happy monsters' dodging.
b) The charge is different. Where Blaster fires one large projectile with enormous knockback, Staker fires a volley of five stakes spread over the same spread as the Thorn Blade Charge. Range, speed and damage of the projectiles is unaltered from the regular shots. The projectiles do more damage than Thorn Blade's, but there are less of them and Staker does not have a swipe attack that deals 500 damage joining in on the fun. This allows the user to spread out damage on a group of enemies or deal high damage at close range to a Trojan. Nowhere near as powerful, but the Staker wins out in versatility.

The Staker does not come with a wacky idea, unless you count dodge-cancelling as wacky when it's more like a required feature for a piercing gun.

Next up: An underused gun receives a make-over as I split a branch of from it to become an anti-construct gun.

Bild des Benutzers Krakob
Krakob
Well said, Zeddy! These ideas

Well said, Zeddy! These ideas are great, I'll say. We've already discussed many of these in private and we are sure to continue later so I won't comment much but there's just one thing...
I came up with the Magnetic Wave, I'm gonna go American all over the place and sue you. Or just thank you for posting it on the forums.

...

I'll go with the latter.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Hold your liquids

Weapon concepts should be original, not combine benefits of other guns for something which trumps them so no one would want the old ones anymore. Base the weapon on itself, not being better than its neighbors.

"-Have some interruption capability, to stop Greavers
-Have fast bullets, perhaps even not activate dodging in the same manner Callahan does in order to hit dodging Devilites
-Interfere as little as possible with mobility, to defend against incoming hails of Devilite furniture
-Be able to inflict lots of damage during a small window, so that killing Trojans can be done in a reasonable amount of time
-Be available in 2* format. Gunners do not have any 2* piercing options.

  • Valiance (does anyone else know this?)
  • Valiance (does anyone know this either?)
  • Kind of Valiance (just a little push in knockback, unlike trigger happy Pulsars)
  • Blitz (Valiance also has pretty good damage, but Blitz would be better for raw damage and is often used against Trojans very well)
  • Okay

Have you tried Valiance? I am not being sarcastic or spiteful here, it works well as a utility gun. It may not have the inflated damage of Blitz but it works pretty well. It has pure normal damage so it can be used against practically anything. I heard from people who have never seen it before that Valiance is horrible, but when I made my own as a primary bomber I find it incredibly useful.

"We need something in between that can meet all of these criteria"

Again, the variation of those guns is to make you want to craft multiple of them to be more versatile. Some weapons have advantages in places, disadvantages in other places; it makes them balanced against each other, though not everything is perfect. Blitz has a lot of damage. Callahan/Magnuses have not enough damage.

"The biggest differences between Staker and Blaster is
a) The knockback has been traded out in exchange for not triggering dodge-happy monsters' dodging.
b) The charge is different. Where Blaster fires one large projectile with enormous knockback, Staker fires a volley of five stakes spread over the same spread as the Thorn Blade Charge. Range, speed and damage of the projectiles is unaltered from the regular shots. The projectiles do more damage than Thorn Blade's, but there are less of them and Staker does not have a swipe attack that deals 500 damage joining in on the fun. This allows the user to spread out damage on a group of enemies or deal high damage at close range to a Trojan. Nowhere near as powerful, but the Staker wins out in versatility."

Except the point of Valiance is to have a versatile gun.

Valiance fires fast enough to hit before they dodge. Callahan/Magnus lines do this as well.

" The charge is different. Where Blaster fires one large projectile with enormous knockback, Staker fires a volley of five stakes spread over the same spread as the Thorn Blade Charge"

Basically, Autogun. With more area coverage. Imitating a sword. Are you aware a bomb was recently changed because it was "not bomb-like"?

"I'm gonna go American all over the place and sue you"

Doing it right.

If anything is your original ideas and Zeddy is stealing them feel free to speak up. It may not matter or be relevant to anyone else but I base some of my respect for others based on their suggestions if they make any. If the idea is from someone else and they are not mentioned as a contributor it makes the person who stole the idea look conniving.

Bild des Benutzers El-Odio
El-Odio
Me gusta

I like your ideas but let me throw in another one or two "wacky" ideas for your harpoon:
- "Reeling in": Instead of just pulling it back you actually pull whatever you "caught" back to you and into close-range.
- "Reeling yoursel in": This I think sounds like fun - you don't pull the harpoon back, but yoursel in. Maybe even follow up with a weak swipe, just for the fun of it?

Also, to me a good anti-fiend gun is not just a "nice addition", it's a necessity. Right now Devilites are, in my eyes, the worst enemys to fight.

Bild des Benutzers Addisond
Addisond
Respone to anti beast sword

This has less coverage than a toothpick, unless you make the hitbox extra-wide. This is morbidly OP in order to be stronger than a toothpick, which has the best combo in the game, a fast swing, and strong damage. I would probably use this for everything but jellies and constructs, unless it is so morbidly slow that I can't hit faster than a thwacker.

Bild des Benutzers Addisond
Addisond
response do devilite gun and lug's response

Yeah, this works well. Not much to be said..

as for lug -
Without knockback, the valiance is a moot point. Antiguas are far better, as they offer typed damage. Except for fiends and beasts (duh). This gun trades out damage for speed and non-dodging, when he says that it has to inflict a lot of damage fast, he means it needs a charge attack suitable for trojans. The point is that this gun works well for devilites and not much else. The charge is different but is not the most important difference. As for suing him, I doubt it was intentionally stolen. And if it is, it doesn't matter. The suggestions forum is supposed to be about good ideas, not who created them.

Bild des Benutzers Krakob
Krakob
T'was a joke, gentlemen!

Addisond, Lugiuru, that was a joke. Zeddy and I are close companions. We explore the clockworks together most days of the week and often criticize the game we hate to love and love to hate, love to love and hate to hate. Lately, we've discussed weapon design a lot. When stumbling upon the bomb Dark Retribution, I came up with the idea of a pure damage haze bomb at a slow rate of fire. I'm glad Zeddy took my idea, refined it and posted it on the forums.

Additionally, in response to Addisond's response to the anti beast sword...
The wolvers are fast, dodgy, and offensive creatures. They tend to pile up due to their AI always acting the same which results in all but the first attacks of a toothpick being worthless compared to the first one. Besides, look at the weapons. They're rapiers if I'm not mistaken. First of all, rapiers are made to thrust, not to slash. You won't be thrusting any wolvers, you'll be slashing them. Second of all, swords were designed to fight men, not beasts. Third of all, I'm pretty sure rapiers in particular were designed to fight other sword wielders.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
@Luguiru

Firstly, in regards to Krakob, I've discussed pretty much everything with him. It's been helpful, and I'll put up credits to him in the first post. You'll be put there too. : D

As for original concepts: Some will be, but just about all of them will take base in existing weapons at some level. It makes it a bit easier to balance.

You're kind of making my point for me in regards to the anti-fiend gun! Valiance fills all the criteria for it, which is why I chose it as the base. Callahan doesn't just shoot so fast that the enemies don't have time to dodge; it literally stops them from dodging at all. You can observe this in surrounding enemies who won't hop around like madmen when you fire it (more than usual). I'll honestly admit I've only observed the blasters, not tried them. Does it carry the same dodge-stopping property?

Callahan, I use plenty. It's my go-to weapon when I'm expecting devilites, but I read a lot of people around here who have trouble using Callahan for them. The piercing Valiance would be for these people. It's balanced because, while being incredibly useful towards its intended target (fiends), and also pretty alright against beasts, the Valiance would be desired over Conviction on neutral targets due to the Valiance' knockback and on resistant targets for obvious reasons.

Actually, I can't really see any point of complaints from you whatsoever. You're agreeing that Valiance is an excellent anti-fiend gun and that a gunner wanting to be efficient versus them would do well with a piercing version. You're... stating? You're stating that the charge attack is kind of similar to autogun. Where the autogun charge would do a total of over 1700 damage, the Conviction would do something like 540. It's a considerable jump over Blaster's 280-ish, but only at point blank range, whereas Blaster can do this damage at a longer distance than usual and has a much increased knockback. Is all that worth 160 damage total? I suppose the spread-stakes could be nerfed a little bit, but I feel like a charge should be more powerful than just shooting up your 3-shot clip. With 5 shots of equal damage, it would be 66% more. I guess it's the kind of thing one could balance by increasing the charge time or something. The charge shoots bullets, which is a what a gun does in regards to the dreaded RSS nerf.

Overall, I don't think a piercing Valiance would make the Valiance itself obsolete any more than Polaris makes Supernova or Blitz Needle makes Pepperbox. They totally do, yes, but that's kind of an inherent problem with the game which I am not setting out to fix.

I'm here to make anti-family weapons.

@Addisond

That's kind of a problem with toothpicks, really. There's a half-founded rumour going around that the initial attack will see a range nerf soon.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons IV: A New Hope

"Hey whoa there", I hear you say. "A gun? Against constructs? We have million zillion elemental guns already!" That may be true, and I'm not filling a very large anti-construct gun shaped hole here, but I'm filling one nevertheless. Polaris will stop turrets in their tracks and when used right will push those enemies away but maybe you want to kill things... faster? Some constructs carry a load of health on them and you may want something stronger. Antigua is a DPS gun, but it won't stop turrets and if you want to constantly fire it you'll have trouble dodging all the bullets coming your way. There's alchemers, though! Alchemers work. Like haze bombs and brandishes, I believe Alchemers are intended as a general purpose support weapon, but at the moment they sort of just one-hit-kill enemies and inflict huge damage on groups. Maybe internal ricochets will be fixed someday? Maybe Alchemers get replaced by, I dunno, potion guns that shoot bird poop-shaped globs that give little reward for an absurd amount of risk. Who knows!

An anti-construct gun should have the following properties:
-Excel against crowds, such as mecha knights chasing you in an arena
-Be able to interrupt turrets
-Allow for mobility while dishing out damage as mecha knights are fast and puppy shots plentiful

It's a poorly disguised post on how to fix Catalyzer
** Catalyzer
*** Freezing Catalyzer
**** Biting Catalyzer
***** Crystalizer

Elemental damage, wiki is pretty incomplete on it and I'm too lazy to go to depth 25 and check it out for myself but base damage values are identical to Biohazard.

Directly inspired by this post, so thanks to Dagunner and Quotefanboy! There's also a couple of threads on how to make Catalyzer stand equal to to the Pulsar, so also thanks to Jester-Gtr and Gametrekker. I also checked out Luguiru's thread literally just now to see if he had any Catalyzer-balancing suggestions, and noticed there was an index-entry for a freezing Catalyzer that doesn't link to anything yet.

Using a Catalyzer requires a lot of setup. With the regular shots doing no knockback, and the charge attacks not doing anything at all before you blow them up, you need a lot of herding to set up multiple charges. The payoff for setting up multiple charges versus just one is that the enemies will usually be more gathered in the end and thus you should be able to kill a crowd more efficiently. The problem with this is that since you'll be shooting the charges at a crowd, they're very likely to land on different targets. It sometimes look like charges chain eachother, but that's actually just your regular attack hitting two enemies at the same time.

Charges should chain eachother. I also think that a charge should be able to activate other charges a bit further than its damage radius; maybe a tile or so. That's mostly it. With elemental damage and charging working as one really should expect it to, the Freezing Catalyzer should be pretty ideal against constructs or many varieties.

Wacky suggestion of the day

Freezing Catalyzer would not explode; it would implode. The distinction may seem pointless at first: Let's say you have an orbiting charge currently at an enemy's 3 o'clock. With an explosion, the enemy would fly to his 9 o'clock. With an implosion, he'd fly to his 3 o'clock instead. Nothing seems different. But wait! What if he's surrounded by other enemies? With an explosion, all the surrounding enemies would be spread to all winds, but with an implosion they'd all be gathered up ready to take more pummeling.

This is a bit too powerful, I'll have to agree. The intent behind my suggestion is not to have a gun that replaces Vortex bombs, but rather that the explosion of Catalyzer can turn quite lethal if you're using it, say, at a group of mecha knights chasing you in an arena. Especially if you have a lot of charges going and therefore a very limited ability to control the directions things fly in. So let's have an implosion, but a fairly weak one. Enemies would flinch towards the implotions by about half a tile or so. A split second of breathing room.

The suggestion might make more sense on the Toxic Catalyzer. After all, this one already freezes enemies. That's pretty safe already! Have you tried opening your freezer, closing it and then opening it again? If your freezer is an old piece of junk like mine is, your freezer will now be incredibly hard to open! Freezing lowers pressure, and as such it makes sense for a freezing Catalyzer to pull rather than push.

Wackier suggestion of the day

You didn't get one last time, so you're getting two now! A problem with the Biohazard is that half of one of the enemy types it's supposed to be effective against are countering that charge too well. It has problems with shields in a way other weapons do not. Hit a Darkfang Thwacker in the shield with an expanded Polaris shot and you'll push him away. Hit him with a Catalyzer charge and the charge will simply plink away harmlessly.

"Okay", you might say, "then just don't hit the shield!" That's easier said than done, considering how slowly these bullets travel, but what's worse is that even if you get the charge in on a weak spot, it can still be shielded when you blow it up. That's twice you have to hit with the charge! Hardly impossible, but it's too much effort for the payoff. While you're leading slow shots into Thwackers and then timing your next shot so that the orbit is in front of him before detonating, some guy with a Callahan would've just juggled him to death.

The problem runs deeper. Sometimes a shield is not just a shield. Gremlins healer shields are MEANT to be attacked. They'll break faster if you whack away at them, but with Catalyzer, your primary attack isn't even available.

The suggestion is something I mentioned in a different post. Make charges stick regardless of whether the enemy was shielded or not. Now I only have to hit the enemy once with the charge, and it's more related to timing than positioning. It would essentially flip the Catalyzer's weakness to shields into a strength against shields. Maybe even too much?

Here's what one would theoretically be able to do with the Catalyzers if they could stick to shields:
-Load charges onto a mecha knight. The knight would shield like an idiot until you're ready to detonate. If implemented along with the implosion idea earlier, the mecha knight would also fly backwards instead of straight into your face when you do this. This is mostly what made me think of implosions, actually! I don't find this particularily unbalanced as mecha knights don't come alone most of the time and they have no right to take an annoying amount of time if they do.

The same could be done with Trojans.

-Load charges into a large group of gremlin Thwackers without worrying that the charges will simply disappear. Nothing overpowered about this.

-Stack charges on a gremlin healer within a shield. When the shield dissipates, unleash instant death. Unique advantage over other weapon. Personally I find it needed.

-Stack charges onto Roarmulus Twins while waiting for them to get exposed. Right now catalyzers really suck against enemies with exposed weak points only some of the time for much of the same reasons bombs do. The difference is that while bombs can be planted anywhere at any time, you can't plant Catalyzer charges until the enemy exposes themselves.

Yes, this would allow you to take down the twins is in the minimum of 5 exposings very easily, but you know what? That was always pretty easy! Just bring a Calibur or a Pepperbox or something and everyone whack away. Most of the time in this fight is spent waiting for one twin to get in the middle lane the other not to have broken timing so that the missiles always cancel eachother anyway.

-Do the same with Battle Pods. Since Battle Pod shields can't, as far as I'm aware, be broken by means other than waiting and the shields are usually up for painfully long times, this is the only area where Catalyzers would now have an enormous advantage over other weapons.

Honestly, though, who gives a crap about Battle Pods? I don't.

-Break Spiked Wheel launchers from the front. Most (all?) guns are already capable of doing this, with the sole exception of that first room in Blackstone Bridge where there are three wheel launchers spread to the sides and you have to move the six statues onto the six buttons. This is just one room. It's early on and it's not like it's any difficult.

-Stack charges onto Snarbolax while waiting for him to get over to the stun bell.

THIS one I'll give can be overpowered. It would become the Blitz Needle of Snarby runs.

Reasonable suggestion of the day

Maybe charges can just explode at reduced knockback and damage if it hits a wall or shield?

Next up is an anti-undead bomb.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Doing it right

Now that someone finally put it together we can have nice things.

An element branch of Catalyzer with the same amount of damage as Biohazard line, but in element, and with freeze instead of poison. No need to change the amount of damage, both have support statuses. As with Biohazard, the freeze branch would be able to freeze from both the normal bullets and detonated mines, meaning you could freeze it with the basic shots, slap a few mines on them, detonate, and the mines could freeze them again. How embarrassing. Since Catalyzer mines may be detonated by allies who are also using a Catalyzer (of any star rating and branch), this could be used in junction with Biohazard line to keep enemies trapped in icy death while taking more damage while dealing less damage while not being able to heal while exploding. Teamwork plus laser tag toys equals homicide. For the freeze branch its status rate would have to be lower than Biohazard line because of how high its rates are (4/3, highest possible is 4/4; see table-list-thing below).

    Rate/Chance to inflict
  1. Slight
  2. Fair
  3. Moderate
  4. Good
    Degree of affliction
  1. Weak
  2. Minor
  3. Moderate
  4. Strong

Reverse knockback is weird. Then again, I squeeze faces with my feet.

The part for buffing the Catalyzer mechanic is not new but definitely necessary, though to an extent; only on shields regular enemy shields. On shielded enemies such as Trojans they would only be damaged by mine explosions which impact their vulnerable area. This would mean more reliance on skill. That means no bosses during invincible states. However, that does not mean the mines should not be usable when bosses are in their vulnerable stages, though with the current mechanic the mines expire after only twenty seconds. There is also a limit on how many mines can be set at a time, I believe the limit is six or eight. Maybe it was seven. I usually detonate when around six are stacked anyway.

With Catalyzer mines their detonation technically can be chained if everything that you tagged is somewhat close enough so that if you detonate one mine its explosion touches another mine, which detonates that one, which explodes onto another one to detonate that one, and so on. Forever.

I can take freeze Catalyzer off my list of stuff to do now and add this thread under new weapons. Very gudd. Elmer Fudd.

Bild des Benutzers Artistbma
Artistbma
I find this thread very

I find this thread very entertaining.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons V: Electric Boogaloo

@Luguiru

Your approval is much appreciated and honestly made my day! Lowering the rate seems like a good idea, but not too much. The freezing is pretty much its selling point. 3/3?

If Catalyzer really has a hardcoded limit for amount of active charges at a time, just plain old removing the time limit on them seems like it'd somewhat solve the boss problem.

I was unsure about whether or not Catalyzer chaining was already in place. The proximity required for it at the moment seems to be a bit on the strict side, so I thought that every time it happened it was just because I'd managed to make a regular shot touch two enemies at once. This is why I suggested that the chaining-range should be a bit larger than the explosion itself.

@Artistbma

I'm pleased that you find my ramblings entertaining!

Anti-Undead Bomb

Let's get right onto business! For a bomb that works well against all manner of undead, it should carry the following properties:
1: Zombies are easily kitable. A bomb efficient against them should focus more on damage than blast radius, knockback and interruption.
2: Cats are jerks. A bomb efficient against them should be conducive towards hitting them, either via range or other means.
3: Crusaders are somewhat easily herdable, but need to be neutralized quickly. That means either killing them fast or controlling them somehow.
4: Pretty much the same thing with Deadnaughts.
5: Howlitzers are sometimes behind chest-high walls, and as such a bomb that cannot reach over them is worthless.
N/A: Bombies can be killed by touching them and then running away. No weapon anywhere needs any properties geared towards defeating them.

Let's have a look see at our options. Out of our current elemental bombs:

-The old Radiant Sun Shards satisfied all of these criteria. They dealt high damage at close range, satisfying criteria 1, 3 and 4. Due to the far reach of the shards I could position myself so that a cat was pretty sure to hit at least one shard while charging at me. If I was really skilled about it, making a cat land on top of the shard bomb was not impossible.

-Haze bombs satisfy the criteria to a reasonable degree. Only Ash of Agni and Voltaic Tempest would be able to kill the Howlitzers behind the chest-high walls at all, and it would be slow.

I must add that Stagger Storm is amazing against all members of the undead family. Especially when used on Crusaders you leave them unable to attack you whatsoever. Its low damage is an advantage in this regard, because it allows a bomber to hold the attention of many crusaders for a long time while other party members kill other, non-respawning targets without being hounded by these religious fanboys. Fanatics. I meant to say fanatics. As for the stun bug, it will not take effect as long as you continously reapply stun by constantly spamming Stagger Storm. Stagger Storm must be used actively, rather than as an added effect to be applied every third bomb charge as is the case with other haze bombs. I can assure you the payoff is worth it.

A thousand thanks to Tsubasa-No-Me for teaching me this!

-The new Crystal Bomb arguably satisfies criteria 1. I will be lenient and say that it does. It gets an automatic fail at criteria 5, but I'll admit that one is a bit specialized. I have not tried hitting cats with this thing yet, and it's not something I intend to anytime soon. The old RSS satisfied it due to being fast and having a long reach, whereas the new shards bombs are slow and hardly covers more area than a proto bomb or the blast from a haze bomb. This thing is mostly effective towards tightly gathered, highly numbered, slow-moving mobs. Cats are exactly none of these. I'm going to be lenient and assume that Deadnaughts could be herded into being hit with all three shards at a reasonable consistency, but there's no way this thing will work on a Crusader.

Overall, could be worse, could be much better. I'd rather use Stagger Storm and would much, much rather use Radiant Sun Shards.

It's a poorly disguised post complaining about Shard Bombs

Six variants on a single bomb mechanic. All of them copy-pasted through all star levels and all damage types. Out of all the failings with the new shard bombs I think having six stonking identical lines is the most atrocious one. Haze bombs have an excuse; statuses are wildly different from eachother and since applying them is all haze bombs do they can get away with it. The only differences between the shard bombs is which enemies they deal more and less damage to; that's boring!

Let's make the shard bombs behave differently. Switch a fuse time here, change the pattern formation there. Conceptually, after all, nothing should be wrong with shard bombs. You've got 8 explosions at the same time all dealing nearly 100 damage. It's a lot! It's a lot more than Brandish' 5 explosions, if you overlook that Brandish also has a swing that does like 500 damage. Would you rather use Deadly Crystal Bomb or a Combuster, though? Or Deadly Dark Matter Bomb over Acheron? Fehzor doesn't think so, and I don't know of anyone else who do.

First of all, fix the dumb and broken things with Shard Bombs

-There is a hardcode limit on Shard Bombs that makes it so you can't hit an enemy with more than three shards from the same bomb. This is impossible to do anyway on smaller enemies, and as such it was made exclusively so that Shard Bombs cannot scale to do more damage on larger enemies while doing less damage on smaller ones, which, before the bomb was actually released, I thought would be its one redeeming factor.

The limit is poorly implemented and currently enemies are able to gain total immunity towards Shard Bombs if you manage to chain up enough shards on them at once. The immunity will not wear off until you break off your own combo. That's right, we're being punished for skillful play. I posted a bug report topic on the matter, but only the crickets cared.

It's atrocious! Out of all the problems with the new Shard Bombs, this is the second or third least excusable one. Remove it at once. Nothing would be overpowered about it compared to guns and swords which can do the exact same thing but easier and on smaller targets.

-Disappearing shards into walls. OOO knew about this and they still released the bombs before fixing it. They also added stun to three weapons at the same time even though stun is still broken.

What the fudge, man? Fix it.

-Shards should be capable of landing on the other side of chest-high walls.

-I will adress other issues, such as blast range and fuse time individually.

It's a Brandish Bomb

** Crystal Bomb
*** Cross Crystals
**** Chrono Cross Crystals
***** Crusader Crystals

Elemental, 95 base damage on depth 25.

The current crystal bomb line would get changed to this, unless OOO wants to add even more shard bomb lines. Essentially, this is just the blast network bomb. You place it, and it explodes outwards in four directions. The 2* bomb has just the one explosion in the middle, 3* has an extra crystal stack up a tile away in each of the cardinal directions which detonate after a while similar to the current shard bombs. It could even have the painfully long detonation time of the secondary shards our current variety has. At 4*, the extra shards have their fuse times lowered so that it works kind of like a 2* Brandish firing in each direction (that's the Chrono part of the name). At 5*, another crystal is added at the end of each line. These extra crystals explode a bit after the secondary ones, making the effect as if a 3* brandish had been fired in four directions at once.

Damage per crystal should start fairly high and increase at a low rate due to the extra shards adding a lot of total damage. Damage might even decrease somewhat during the jump from 2* to 3*, and perhaps even not change at all during the jump from 4* to 5*.

For those not paying attention, that ends us up with 9 shards. One in the middle in the beginning, and then an extra two in each cardinal direction. Total damage is only slightly decreased from the current Crystal Bomb (Bomb Blast jumps from 70 to 95 at the expense of range), but the overall usefulness of the bomb should be increased much more. Regular mobs can be three-hitted in a consistently replicated manner by planting the bomb in cardinal adjacency not unlike the old RSS. All it took was repositioning the shards and changing fuse times. Let's look at my earlier checklist.

1: 300-450 damage in a replicatable manner against zombies. Nothing near overpowered. It's really just par for the course if this bomb wants to be more useful than Nitronome and DBB, especially considering that it has a radius of a mere 3 tiles.
2: Due to the line of explosions having a somewhat persistant nature, there's leniency in the timing for baiting cats into the bomb.
3: I think it would be fairly easy to keep Crusaders pushed back with this pattern
4: Deadnaughts are large. It would be fun and somewhat challenging to hit them with the diagonals of the bomb for 5 crystals doing damage to them at once.
5: Brandish charges stop at walls, and as such it would be fair for walls to eat this bomb's shards as well. It's not the biggest loss.

Wacky suggestion of the day

You got three wacky suggestions last time! Is there "Wacky suggestion dispenser" written on my forehead or something?

Next up is Anti-Slime sword. It'll be wacky.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
I would rather have the old shard bombs

Seriously.
The old shard bombs.
They did it right.
Everyone* wants them back.
They could change only RSun/Scintillating line back, lower the shard range if they have to. Technically they do not have to.

* Shard haters are afraid of competition. Wimps.

Bild des Benutzers Artistbma
Artistbma
Another interesting

Another interesting suggestion by Zeddy. I'll be keeping a close eye on these.

Bild des Benutzers Krakob
Krakob
Responses to stuff.

@Zeddy
You mention Crusaders and Deadnaughts in your post. I say no, really, NO. Crusaders and Deadnaughts are scenario enemies who appear only in a single mission. Unless these are implemented into other places (i.e. graveyards, undead stratums, more missions, etc.) I don't think they're very important.

Yup, shards are borked. Can we hope for some fixin' during Wednesday? I hope but if I know OOO, we're getting items which colour your farts. 50k CR to change.

@Luiguru
I agree a bit. As a pal of Zeddy the Awesome Bomber, I realised the awesomeness in RSS. The thing is, although the change was executed horribly, Nick had a valid point. The shard weapons weren't really bombs. In my opinion, they should either fix them up or replace them with something new which works.

@Everyone
What would really fix the RSS would be to either fix the stun bug or remove the stun for the moment/replace it. Also, remove that stupid hardcoded hit limit for all shard bombs. It messes them up big time. I have no experience with either version of these bombs but I do understand the situation. I don't have much to say however. Feels like most has been said.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons VI: 6 Fast 6 Furious

@Luguiru

I agree a thousand percent! Was hoping I made that fairly clear by showing that RSS was already the perfect anti-undead bomb. Bring it back in, dip it in pure elemental damage and scrape off that icky piercing damage nobody were using, subtly nerf the shards' range, put in the hardcoded triple-hit limit if they feel they have to do that.

I would find that acceptable.

@Krakob

You mention Crusaders and Deadnaughts in your post. I say no, really, NO. Crusaders and Deadnaughts are scenario enemies who appear only in a single mission.

Not so! Deadnaughts and Slag Guards are basically the same thing, so you will also encounter them when fighting Vanaduke. A pattern useful against Deadnaughts will also be of assistance against Trojans, a common enemy found amongst undead.

Crusaders act very similarily to Phantoms. They are also only found in a single scenario, but let's not kid anyone; there are only three places where one fights undead worth talking about.

Anti-Slime Sword

Slimes are easy! An anti-slime sword should:

-Absolutely not inflict fire or shock, making it unusable against Oilers and Quicksilver. Fire is half-debatable, in that it's useful against Ice Cubes but honestly I'd rather have it not be unusable against Oilers.

-Do a bunch of damage to a crowd.

-Do a bunch of knockback to a crowd.

-Do a bunch of damage to a single target, like a turret or the Royal Jelly.

There are two shadow swords and they both do all of these, but there's an elemental sword which has caught my attention in regards to that last point.

Wacky suggestion of the day

This whole weapon is out of whack.

It's the Fang of Vog, but now we lol at it because we fear

***** Fang of Vog
***** Swarm Sword

Normal/Shadow damage, 173, 258 and 440 base damage on the first, third and charge hits. Identical to the Fang, in other words.

Good chance of causing strong Poison
Good chance of causing strong Stun
Chance of receiving Poison
Chance of receiving Stun

Whaaaaaaaat? Two statuses on a single weapon? Why does it upgrade from a 5* sword? What's going on here? Are you off your rocker, Zeddy?
Yes, yes I am. First of all, I plan to get into how one acquires some of these weapons in a later section, but for this particular one I feel it's a crucial point of balance, so I shall address it at once:

Swarm Sword will be crafted at a Sanctuary Alchemy machine where its ingredients include a Maiden's Tear and a level 10 Fang of Vog. I felt this merited it to an improvement over Fov, such as upping its damage and/or speed to match the Calibur, but then it'd feel downright unfair to leave the charge attack that much better than Calibur's so I didn't. Instead, I figured we should pack a differently-flavoured punch into the charge attack which is the sword's point.

I put Poison on the sword because that's desirable for killing the Royal Jelly ASAP, undoubtedly the sword's primary (only) purpose. The stun was put on so as to emulate the behaviour of corruption. Working together they form a deadly coctail which might very well kill the user as effectively as the old Fire did. Immunizing yourself to the sword is harder as well, but the payout should be somewhat worth it.

The sword will look identical to the ones carried by Void Thwackers and enemate corruption squares instead of fire.

Suggestions by Luguiru:
Just poison, the sword (has a chance of?) doing piercing damage to the user when the charge is used.

Next up will be anti-construct bomb... AND MORE!?!?!?!????

Bild des Benutzers Krakob
Krakob
Good idea!

That's one sword you've suggested. As a fan of the sadly horrible FoV, I like it very much. No direct damage is very desirable and it makes one good support thing something uh pancakes. I also like your crafting idea, it's unique and very awesome. It's a bit ironic that you craft something from the Swarm in the Sanctuary though.

I'd get it 'cause FoV is suicide. Sure, that's also dangerous but not if you have awesome teammates like Zeddy with his Electron Vortex. +173 to you because I have the authority to give more than +1.

Protip: make the text "There are two shadow swords and they both do all of these" bold. I barely noticed it at first and thought you meant the Swarm Sword would be the slime killer. Also, I think Swarm Blade might be a better name... How about Heart of the Swarm? =P

Edit to your reply to my e-
I mean uh... Reply to your edit I didn't notice because I started writing this post before you edited.
You've got that right, can't say much. But which three places are you referring to? I can count to pota- Legion of Almire and Firestorm Citadel... Shadow Lair Gloaming Wildwoods?

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Seems a bit overcomplicated

How about just a Calibur branch with pure shadow damage and some poison?

With reduced base damage, of course. A little less than Vanquisher line.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
@Luguiru

From eyeballing that stats on Fang of Vog and Leviathan, Fang would just outshine it. We already have Acheron doing the exact same dam- Make that higher damage than what Levi is doing on its regular attacks. What would you get a shadow-damage Levi for? The charge? Fang of Vog is better there, and it's not like Acheron has a bad one, either.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Fang may do more damage

But Calibur does not hurt the user for using it.

The reason self inflicting status works with Fang is because its status is fire, which hurts you. Poison and stun do not inflict damage themselves.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Posion and stun may not do damage

But it leaves you very, very vulnerable. You're also not likely to hit upon a set which protects against both stun and poison, meaning one would have to go to extreme lengths in order to use the sword optimally.

I'm open to suggestions on changing the concept in place, but I feel like straight up making it a weak shadow-calibur is taking it too far. Maybe lowering the base damage somewhat, removing stun infliction but keeping stun receiving, keeping the chance of receiving fire or just straight up have a chance of receiving damage.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Considering how jellies work

Using the charge attack could inflict some pierce damage on the user. It could still have sizable damage and inflict poison on both basic and charge attacks, but having fire and/or stun would be excessive. All it needs is poison.

Jellies tend to be apathetic towards statuses, they only care about killing us. They also tend to be very blunt and predictable. Like Iops.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti Family Weapons VII: Advent Children

@Luguiru

Sounds fair. It would make more sense for the damage to be shadow, and would also increase the risk of using it seeing as you'd never use the sword on enemies dealing shadow. Too much?

@Krakob

FSC, Gloaming Wildwoods and graveyards. LoA is a graveyard.

Anti-Construct Bomb

The ideal construct bomb carries similar properties to our ideal construct gun:
-Excel against crowds, such as mecha knights chasing you in an arena.
-Be able to interrupt turrets. In the case of bombs, it's a bonus if the radius is as such that you could hit two turrets with it at the same time in typical two turret-situations, such as the third room of arenas or certain rooms in Royal Jelly Palace.
-Allow for mobility while dishing out damage as mecha knights are fast and puppy shots plentiful. That means bombs slowing you down such as Big Angry and Electron Vortex are out for this purpose.
-Crowd control is crucial. I'd bring a Voltaic Tempest or Stagger Storm over a theoretical elemental/neutral Dark Briar Barrage for most construct situations.

I have most of the ideas presented in this thread thought out far in advance. There are four arguably overpowered concepts I had thought up specifically for dealing with the four main bosses. The shadow-damage Fang of Vog in the last post was one of them, and most likely the least over-the-top of them. The concept in this one is the one I feel personally is the most exploitable and overpowered of them all. I kind of like it, though! Is there any way we can strike a balance between having this feature present on the bomb without nerfing it to uselessness? Let's try!

Wacky suggestion of the day: This bomb

** Blast Bomb
*** Deconstructor
**** Heavy Deconstructor
***** Scrambler

Elemental, base damage is identical to that of Heavy Deconstructor with the exception that damage goes slightly upwards in Stratum 6 rather than down. Deconstructor and Heavy Deconstructor are also changed to be elemental. The line in general also has construct damage bonus bumped up to Very High, just like shard bombs.

Good chance of inflicting moderate Target Override. <--- This is the possibly overpowered part.

All properties of the bomb remain identical to Heavy Deconstructor. So for most intents and purposes it carries the same effectiveness as a 4* bomb up until the moment it's used on constructs.

Target Override is a status every enemy except constructs are completely immune to. When affected, the enemy's attention is directed solely and completely towards the player who planted the bomb, and all other players are effectively invisible to them. It lasts for about 5 to 7 seconds, leaving the player little else to do if they hope to consistently keep the enemy's attention.

Roarmulus would not be immune to Target Override either, and one could use this bomb to decide the next lane they would fire at. This could be painfully limited (the status would have to be inflicted during their exposed phase), or lolserifically simple (bomb would be able to target override even an invincible Roarmulus).

Subtle suggestion of the day
***** Gigaton Deconstructor

An elemental Nitronome with somewhat less base damage and a Very High versus constructs.

Next up will be the anti-beast gun. It'll be ridiculous.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons VIII: Jason Takes Manhattan

Anti-Beast Gun

Once again we revisit a family but with a different weapon. Our requirements are similar to last time:

-Beasts are not difficult to avoid, focus should be on damage over handling
-Firerate is not important, but the bullet itself must be fast and the payload heavy to minimize frustration over wolver teleporting.

Once again we do not wish for a piercing antigua for this purpose. With fiends it would expose us too much, with beasts it would have too little bang per buck. Usually you only get one shot in at wolvers before they poof away, so let's make that shot count.

Let's have a look at Callahan. It seems to meet the requirements, but I think we could use even more power to deal with beasts. My experience with Callahan in the field was managing to kill maybe two wolvers while my friend with a thorn blade rounded up the rest of the wave.

I get the impression Wolvers teleport away from Blitz Needles, too. It does a lot of damage, but while the problem isn't that you're exposed while using it, the damage is spread over a lot of time. So here's an awkward in-between thing:

It's a one-shot pony

*** Magnus
**** Mega Magnus
***** Poacher

Piercing, 240 base damage, charge does 520

Charge deals Beast Bell

I'm sure you're seeing that damage and going "What the liquids is this?" (Yes, you, Luguiru), and before you jump at my throat here let me explain the drawback: There is only one shot in the barrel. That means you are forced to reload every time you fire the gun. No shield-canceling, no short-stopping, no revolving. Fire that son of a gun and then go through the painful, vulnerable reload process like a man! The reload may or may not be about 15% longer.

In exchange you're doing a lot of damage per shot and deal a marginally higher DPS. This is only fair considering that noone in their right mind would use this thing against devilites over Callahan. Staker for fiends, Poacher for beasts, Callahan for something that works against both.

The observant ones among you might be wondering about the charge (or already have it figured out). Well, I guess it's once again time for...

Wacky suggestion of the day!

Ever wanted to just pick up one of those beast bells in Gloaming Wildwoods? Now, for the low, low price of 1400 energy, a bunch of crowns and various assorted materials you can! Poacher will require at least 10 seconds to reload, perhaps even after max CTR is applied. For those in the know-how, this is nearly 50% longer than the painfully slow old Ionized Salt Bomb. While charging, just like with other Magnus guns, you move like you've got a log on its way out and you're trying to squeeze it out while walking. For ten seconds!

When fired, you get an oversized, golden bullet which acts like a beast bell was rung at the point of impact. That means every regular beast within the radius gets stunned, and the smaller ones get knocked down. The point of this is to use it on Snarbolax, replacing a tedious element of randomness from the battle with a tedious charge that is a sure thing, but takes a lot of time and leaves the user vulnerable. Whether the bullet should stun, then hit; or hit, then stun is up for debate; with the distinction being whether or not Snarbolax takes damage from the stunning shot.

-Next up is the anti-undead gun. It'll be ridiculous and full of liquids.

Bild des Benutzers Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

Target Override? A Taunt-type status?
This... this is epic.
But like you said, I think the status should only be inflictable whilst the Twins are vulnerable. Otherwise the fight will be even more trivial than it currently is. 2 x Scrambler + 2 x Divine Avenger combo = superfast RT bosskills. Other than that, it is a sexy sexy weapon and would be useful in co-op gameplay: Have a friend distract the mobs whilst you slip behind and launch a DA charge in the posterior - wait, that sounds wrong.

The Poacher looks as if its base damage should be marginally higher, since 240 damage seems pretty low for a 1-hit rifle, especially given the reload time. I'd appreciate the ability to do Snarbolax fights faster, but this seems like a specialised UGWW weapon. I'm not sure whether the Stun afflicted by Beast Bells prolongs the duration of the status if the beast is already afflicted, since lobbing Stun vials seems to have no visible effect even when the beast is meant to be vulnerable. The drawbacks don't really seem to be balanced by the benefits, given how specialised it is.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Humpty dumpty

You're probably right on a lot of those things!

I'm a bit unsure about the Poacher damage. OOO seems to think that putting a lot of damage in one bullet necessitates lowering the firerate so that overall DPS is much lower. If you look at most gun charge attacks, you can see this trend; Magnus charges in particular. Still, I wanted this gun to have just a bit more DPS in exchange for safety and immediate bang, and I think those values should achieve that.

For all I know Luguiru will waltz in here and tell me the gun is horribly overpowered.

Bild des Benutzers Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

fff I just typed out a massive walloftext
and then I refreshed and realised I refreshed and had to do it all again
One minute, please.

Edit: And now my house is flooded with burnt toast smell.

Oh well. What I was about to say: The issue I have is that it seems overspecialised, even for normal specialist weapons. Stun isn't really a fatal status, and often it turns out to be counterproductive. Wolvers are not generally the kind of monsters you want to have stunned; that privilege goes to the Undead family with its Almirian Crusaders, Deadnaughts and Kats, all of which are considerably less dangerous if kept stunned. (Let's ignore the whole 'extra hit' shenanigans for the time being.) Basically the gun is a specialised anti-Snarbolax gun, which is not all that useful given that the only people who will actually have access to it will be rich. Therefore, it's fairly safe to say that it will be saved for UGWW.
Now if the Stun affected monsters other than just beasts, it might be fair to say that it could be used effectively as a mass-stun gun, or a flashbang grenade for disorienting your enemies in a given area. That would be rather more useful... but I'm not sure whether it would be considered bomb-like. x.x

Bild des Benutzers Knightoffury
Knightoffury
Question

How do you tie your face behind your back O_o?

Bild des Benutzers Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

@Knightoffury: I asked that question. To quote Zeddy, "I use duct tape, but you could pull it off with rope."

Bild des Benutzers Knightoffury
Knightoffury
ty

oh ok thank you

Bild des Benutzers Djokson
Djokson
I'd KILL(wolvers) to get the

I'd KILL(wolvers) to get the Poacher into the game, it sounds like such a silly and fun thing to use! The damage just might be a bit too low though.

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
What the li-

Oh, I see you beat me to it.

Alright.

Poacher looks fine, actually. Maybe have Callahan to work that way instead of a specialized Iron Slug. Callahan already has stun, just change its clip from two to one and bump up the damage per hit; but lower its damage from 240 on the basic shot to around 220. The charge is fine.

The funky part is derp. Stick to possible weapon mechanics, not making it ridiculous.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons IX: I'm Running Out of Subtitles

@Everyone regarding Poacher

The Poacher looks as if its base damage should be marginally higher

The damage just might be a bit too low though.

but lower its damage from 240 on the basic shot to around 220.

I knew this would happen. Sounds like I hit a balance, to me!

Anti-Undead Gun

Let's look at- oh screw it:
-Autoguns are perfect for undead.
-Yes, even spookats.

Undead are slow, easily baited and eat up tons of damage, so you want an autogun. I know you're thinking "Oh okay, it's an elemental autogun, big whoop. I'll check back tomorrow", but give me a chance to elaborate here.

It's a holy water cannon
** Autogun
*** Rain Gun
**** Storm Gun
***** Silver Lining

Elemental, about 60 base damage. Charge does about 200.
Very High against Undead
Fair chance to inflict moderate Divine Fire

You may want to point out that the base damage should be lower than Volcanic Pepperbox for various reasons, but I assure you there is a very good reason I didn't. I'll get to that in a second. It handles exactly like an elemental Pepperbox (not a needle shot, this is crucial!) in terms of speed and interruption. Knockback should be about the same, but I'd have to use the pepperbox to know if its regular attack has reliable knockback for survival.

Wacky suggestion of the day

Divine Fire works just like regular fire with a few differences:
-Only undead can catch Divine Fire.
-That means it cannot spread to players or other enemies.
-Fire-themed undead can catch Divine Fire.
-It's blue!

I'm undecided on whether or not Divine Fire should be able to stack up with regular Fire. The point is moot for the most played undead-themed level anyway. What I am sure of is that Divine Fire should still break free frozen enemies.

The wackiest suggestion of the day

The Rain Gun line's charge attack is both the reason you would get the gun and also the reason why you would never touch the gun with a ten-foot pole and bring Needle Shot instead.

It's a water ball splash.

Go on, chew on that for a moment.

Alright, so here are the effects and ramifications of putting a water ball splash in a weapon. Keep in mind, this is just the splash from when a water ball hits something, not a water ball in itself! That carries with it both advantages and disadvantages:

-First off, you can extinguish teammates. You would not be able to extinguish yourself. (Maybe this should be possible by standing next to a wall and firing into it?)

-Secondly, you can extinguish fire tiles, fire balls and Vana's mask.

-This would let you skip Charred Court, which I don't know why you'd want to do unless you have an elevator pass, and even then. It might be a slightly bigger problem in Darkfire FSC, which I have yet to observe or play. Nothing that couldn't be straightened out by putting some keys and gates there.

-Since it's just a splash, tricks involving throwing a water ball across lengths would not be able to be performed.

The water splash would not be able to put out Divine Fire on undead, but it would be able to inflict it. Damage of the water-splash is otherwise negligible.

That puts an end to the super-wacky weapon mechanics quadrology. Unique statuses and ridiculous charge times will be kept to a minimum from this point out. There is wackiness yet to come, though!

-Next up is the anti-fiend bomb.

Bild des Benutzers Aureate
Aureate
Processing Thoughts of You Always

wat
the gun inflicts fire
and puts out fire
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS

D8

Bild des Benutzers Luguiru
Luguiru
Element Autogun a family bonus and fire

Though the (weird) fire is pushing it a little.

Autogun plus pure element damage plus big family bonus against those zombies and what not. No fire necessary. No weird squirt gun toy shenanigans. All you need is to have the neutral base damage on this branch be around 80-90% of VPepperbox without the family bonus and around 120% with.

"Elemental, about 60 base damage. Charge does about 200."

What are these numbers based on? S6 neutral target or against undead? As neutral damage it would be very close to Blitz line (62 per basic bullet, 121 per charged bullet; neutral target) on the basic attack and close when more effective (116 per basic bullet, 215 per charged bullet; against vulnerable target).

Since we are dealing with an Autogun we need to get our number straight. Below is only neutral damage on floor 29

    • VPepper:
    • 46 (per bullet, basic)
    • 79 (per bullet, charge)
    • Slight chance of moderate fire (2/3)
    • Charge bullets are 1.717 times basic bullet damage
    • Plague:
    • 46 (per bullet, basic)
    • 78 (per bullet, charge)
    • Slight chance of strong poison (2/4)
    • Charge bullets are 1.696 times basic bullet damage
    • Blitz:
    • 62 (per bullet, basic)
    • 121 (per bullet, charge)
    • Charge bullets are 1.952 times basic bullet damage

Seeing as Blitz has high damage rates and is not meant to be rivaled, take the Pepperbox and Plague rates and average them. They are about the same. Now take that same number and take 10% from it:

46 [basic] * 0.9 = 41.4 ~ 41

79 [charge] * 0.9 = 71.1 ~ 71

Now apply the +28% that would apply from the family bonus (+4 undead, +1 = +7% damage, +28%):

41.4 * 1.28 = 52.992 ~ 53 [basic]

71.1 * 1.28 = 91.008 ~ 91 [charge]

Check if it supersedes Blitz. No? Then we keep going, apply the specialized damage effect (appears to be ~1.77 times neutral damage for Autogun mechanic; specialized damage rates are not consistent though tend to vary between 1.4 and 1.8, we will use 1.6 as the multiplier):

52.992 * 1.6 = 84.7872 ~ 85 [basic]

91.008 * 1.6 = 145.6128 ~ 146 [charge]

This is around neutral damage for Blitz line after accounting for the family bonus and specialized damage against a vulnerable target. Blitz is not viable to base damage rates on because it has very high damage output. I should add it to my balance list over there.

Status rates are based on this:

    Rate/Chance to inflict
  1. Slight
  2. Fair
  3. Moderate
  4. Good
    Degree of affliction
  1. Weak
  2. Minor
  3. Moderate
  4. Strong

When using a #/# rate. For example, 3/4 does not mean the status inflicts three out of four times; it means moderate chance to inflict strong.

Bild des Benutzers Autofire
Autofire
Woah woah woah

You sir, are wrong on that! Before I go reading further, let me tell you

Pitiful. Normal damage! High bonus against beasts, sure, but if you were to gear up in full skolver and equip a Barbarous Thorn Shield that bonus would go to waste. Meanwhile, Dread Venom Striker would output the same damage and also poison the beasts. What kind of anti-beast variant of a sword is outperformed in its own territory by the very sword from which it sprung off?

is wrong! It's a crap sword in some cases, but you ever heard of poison monsters with poison imunity? If I were to chose ONE sword(and possible one weapon) for Snarby SL, it would be the WHB. Why? Cause it is normal! Normal works against all the little construct freaks there perfectly well.

Anyway, reading on...

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
@Luguiru

Seeing as my suggested weapon would not have the standard autogun charge attack, which is nearly twice as strong as the regular attack per bullet, it would need a fairly strong regular attack to make up for it.

The 200 for the charge attack would be just a single hit. It could be scaled down to the damage I've observed water balls actually do: a mere 8.

If one were to not have the water ball there at all, your numbers would work too.

All damage numbers I post assume neutral targets on depth 25. I've been neglecting to mention so lately.

@Autofire
That sounds like a very specialized reason to craft a weapon. A normal/piercing WHB would probably do you alright against the, what, five lumbers in shadow lair GWW?

Bild des Benutzers Oatmonster
Oatmonster
Lick

I think the Scrambler should be called the "Darkfang Bomb," just saying.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons X: Command Mission

And that was a wrap for specific anti-boss weapons. Seerus wasn't included because his own bomb already works on him pretty nicely. Seerus and maybe scorchers are unique in that the existing anti-gremlin bomb is actually fairly effective on them.

Anti-Fiend Bomb

Let's have a look at properties required to be effective against all fiends for a bomb:
-The bomb must detonate quickly to interrupt greavers.
-The bomb should detonate slowly so that Trojans can have their backs baited into them. It should deal high damage within a small area to deal with them.
-The bomb should be able to cover a lot of ground at the same time to hit devilites. It could deal low damage, but over a large area so that it can deal with many devilites at once.

Whoa there, those points seem to contradict eachother, don't they? How can a bomb explode both quickly and slowly? How can a bomb both do large damage in a small area and low damage over a large area? (If you just thought "Hey wait a minute, I know the answer to that last one!", you win my sympathies. I miss her too. :[ )

Let's have a look at our current options.

-Dark Briar Barrage can be used against greavers with a little bit of kiting, blocking, circling and elbow grease. If it detonated just a tad quicker it'd pretty much be perfect for devilites and greavers. As it stands, it's merely very, very good against them. It works nicely on trojans in terms of fuse time, but it would be nice to damage them faster.

-The old Radiant Sun Shards was perfect for greavers. It didn't detonate slowly, bu you could use it like one would a sword or a blitz needle to take them out quickly. Because it covered a lot of ground, (one could even say it created a large area of damage!) devilites could be dispatched with relative safety. Even if you didn't hit them most of the time, you'd keep them dodging rather than throwing spears after you. With proper kiting, one could kill devilites with relative ease.

Once again, old Radiant Sun Shards proves to be perfect against the enemies for which it was designed.

-New Radiant Sun Shards... The initial blast takes the same time to explode as a Dark Briar Barrage, but covers only a fraction of the area, making it much, much worse against greavers. It's possible to bait a trojan into the shard-ring so that his back will be hit no matter which direction he faces, but it takes careful calculation of his dashing-distance as the bomb cannot be planted close the trojan himself without shards disappearing. When I discovered this, my thought process went something like this:

"Okay, so if I place this bomb here at the exact time using this exact distance, I can have this Trojan come at me from the right angle, avoiding all the ter-" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT? I'm a bomber! I shouldn't have to be worrying about angles and distances! That's why all our bombs have circles around them freeing us and lockdown enemies from the difficult task of thinking about bomb placement and its effect!

Technically, nRSS has a higher DPS than Dark Briar Barrage, but since you have to pause between bombing to re-bait the trojan, using DBB, Nitronome or even Dark Retribution is faster. Stun bug does nothing to help in this regard.'

nRSS performs adequately on devilites, but stun bug means you'll be dodging double pitchforks.

It's a lagsplotion!
** Splinter Bomb
*** Sun Chains
**** Radiant Sun Chains
***** Flower Power

Piercing, 70 for the blast, 81 for the shards
-Very High versus Fiends.
-Fair chance of causing moderate Stun.
(Nothing has been changed)

Yes, I'm keeping stun. I cannot design a weapon based on compensating for bugs. Obviously I think it'd be atrocious to keep the stun there as long as the bug is present, but ultimately there's nothing wrong with stun being there.

So what's with the renaming? It's to emphasize that this is a chain-bomb. What is a chain-bomb, you might ask? It works like this:

-Initial fuse time is lowered to old RSS time so that the shards are scattered almost immediately.
-Shard fuse time is nearly doubled, to allow for at least five clusters of shards to be out at the same time.
-The idea is to place the bombs so that they are daisy-chained together. When one explodes, all the other chain bombs it touches also does so. You might recognize this as the bomb-equivalent of a catalyzer (which was the gun equivalent of a bomb).
-Obviously this will not work with a hard-coded hit-limit! Have it removed!

Let's look back at our checklist:
-With the short initial fuse, hitting greavers shouldn't be too much work. That's all we need.
-By stacking a lot of Sun Chains on top of eachother, a lot of damage is accumulated when it finally detonates, possibly one-hitting Trojans if you manage to bait them into it. This is at it should be.
-If spread out, the explosion will cover a lot of area with a fairly nice payoff. The biggest problem is that you're stuck dodging devilite hail while waiting for the bombs to go off. I would have to try the mechanic out in practice to know if it'd be worth it over just bringing DBB.

It's now kind of the inverse of current Sun Shards, which is pretty good against devilites but rubbish against all other manners of fiends. (Including Maulos, who is immune to Sun Shards due to the shards stopping short of him. Fix this, please?)

Next up will be the anti-gremlin sword.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons cranked up to 11

Anti-Gremlin Sword

First off, let's have a look at requirements for a sword dealing with gremlins:
-Flourish is pretty much perfect. If only it had shadow damage!

Well, that was brief. My initial thought was that we should just put shadow damage on the Thorn Blade line. DARK Thorn Blade, people? It wouldn't really make sense without piercing/shadow and I guess OOO hates split special damage so that won't really happen.

It's a laser sword

* Prototype Shade Saber
*** Stable Shade Saber
***** Overlord Shade Saber (Where Overlord can be replaced by an appropriate gremlin rank)

Shadow; 190, 240, and 450 damage on the basic attacks and charge.

Yes, it's just a shadow-damage flourish. It'll look light saberish (See the extremely subtle thing I did there? Man, I should quit my day job.) I'm imagining the blade is either red or purple and you get lasery, wooshy sound effects when swinging it around. Yes, one of my later posts will be an elemental counter-part to this sword, except that it will behave exactly nothing like this one.

Wacky idea of the day!

So what about this puppy's charge attack? I'm thinking we get Sega's pants sued off: it's a force choke! Here's how it works:

-The player holds his sword-arm out, indicating that the pull happens due to a mechanism within the weapon.
-One (1) enemy in the player's front gets pulled in front of the player. It will only work on a single target, and stationary targets are unaffected.
-Range of the pull is about 3 tiles. Somewhat further than a regular toothpick swipe, and certainly no wider.
-The enemy is kept in front of the player for about a second. During this time, they are unable to move but may turn and attack at will.
-The player does a powerful, vertical slice which deals the charge attack damage. The attack deals knockback comparable to CIV. Even though only one enemy may be pulled, any amount of enemies caught within the narrow range of the slice will be hit.

So what do we get? Compared to other swords' charge attacks the damage is pretty mediocre, and you leave yourself exposed to the enemy for a full second. In exchange you get a sure-fire hit in at a pretty good range. Safety traded for range, whaaaaaaaat? Best used on enemies already engaged in an attack and thus unable to take advantage of their one second of free hits, or gremlins running away from you.

Next up is the anti-slime gun!

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons XII - Simon's Quest

Anti-Slime Gun

Good day, class. Today's lecture will be on guns that can kill slimes with efficency. If you recall, these were the properties I described for an anti-slime sword:
-Absolutely not inflict fire or shock, making it unusable against Oilers and Quicksilver. Fire is half-debatable, in that it's useful against Ice Cubes but honestly I'd rather have it not be unusable against Oilers.

-Do a bunch of damage to a crowd.

-Do a bunch of knockback to a crowd.

-Do a bunch of damage to a single target, like a turret or the Royal Jelly.

I will now blatantly contradict two of those properties with this gun!

It's the flaming Polaris everyone's been crying about

** Pulsar
*** Fusing Pulsar
**** Blazing Pulsar
***** Consumer

Shadow, base damage is 84 for basic attack and 108 for expanded shots. Charge also remains at 248.
Moderate chance of causing moderate Fire. Polaris gets nerfed to the same.

Inspired by this post, which is hardly the only one of its kind. Catalyzer gets an elemental counterpart so Pulsar gets a shadow one. Similarily to Freezing Catalyzer, the selling feature on this once again be reverse knockback.

You are permitted to exclaim obsceneties now.

Here's the thing: This is a damage-oriented crowd control gun. The fire is for doing damage. The reverse knockback is for selfless crowd control. What do I mean by that? Polaris is a selfish crowd control gun. You spam that junk, enemies go flying away. You're in the clear. Your teammates may or may not be surrounded by shocked enemies that are too clumped together to shield-bump away. Nice job, hero.

Consumer will be selfless. People using Consumer will be Our Lord and Saviour, turning the other cheek and giving vision to blind kids. Those who learn to use the gun can pull a crowd off from their teammates, still interrupt turrets with ease, gather up enemies and do a lot of damage, pull foes into bomb blast radii, work together with a Polaris wielder to keep an enemy completely in place, and so many other things! Those who do not learn to use it properly... will burn.

The way I imagine this gun being used, primarily, is a technique I just invented called "orbiting". You pop a couple of expanded shots on the enemy. Now you run towards them, turn around and pull them right back again. When performed correctly, the user and the enemy would orbit around eachother like beautiful twin stars. Much like our metaphorical stars, the enemy would also be on fire and eventually explode.

Let's have a look at our checklist:
-It inflicts fire. DO NOT bring this gun to C42. I added fire to the gun for thematic consistency. Poison would be prefered, but Biohazard alreay has that among the Roarmulus guns. Plus, like I said, the fire is debatable. Would I bring this gun to Ice Queen? Yes. Yes I would.

-It will do a bunch of damage to a crowd.

-It does reverse knockback to a crowd. Technically, that's a big no on the checklist. Let's replace this point with "crowd control".

-Not the best at single-target damage, but not the worst. You will not have troubles fighting Polyps. Can be used to pull minis away from Royal Jelly, rather than pushing them into her.

Next up is the anti-construct sword.

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Anti-Family Weapons XIII: Versus

Anti-Construct Sword

An ideal anti-construct sword carries properties that look somewhat like this:
-Damage is more important than range, as constructs are generally slow.
-To deal with mechas, the sword should either be quick or deal much knockback.
-Constructs have a lot of bullets. The sword should be quick so the user can still fight while under bullet hell. That means no knockback, then!

What happened to the crowd control and turret interruption I jabbed about in the other construct weapons? Well, I had an idea.

It's a laser sword

* Prototype Laser Sword
*** Stable Laser Sword
***** Counselor Laser Sword (Where counselor is an appropriate gremlin rank.)

Elemental, damage values are 90 (high), 50 (low) and 80 (charge projectiles).

The idea behind this and the Shade Sabre is that they will be obtained from a raid at a gremlin compound similar to Crimson Hammer. There are plenty of Crimson Order members left, after all. You'd fight two of them; one would use Shade Saber and the other Laser Sword. They'd drop a component used to make these swords and you'd obtain two or three of them to use for crafting either. These same gremlins could be the ones making the previously mentioned anti-gremlin bomb and the upcoming anti-gremlin gun, both gained from just completing the mission.

Shade Sabre takes its pattern from flourish, but flourish isn't very desirable against constructs, even disregarding damage type. You use flourish for tricky enemies with low health, hence its popularity in Lockdown. For easily managed, durable enemies you go for something like a cutter. Hence why nobody cares about cutter in Lockdown. (That and there's a horribly game-breaking bug where knights have invincibility frames in Lockdown which was fixed for a week and then broken again.)

So this is an elemental cutter. See you tomorrow, when I'll talk about an-

Oh right.

Wacky suggestion of the day

I mentioned earlier I had an idea in regards to using this weapon against puppies and mecha knights. This is that idea!

It's the mecha knight shield. After the charge is released, the user holds his sword forward in a similar motion to the Shade Sabre. A beehive-patterned energy shield (as seen on for example the breaker shields) forms in front of the player. This only protects the player's front, just like with mecha knights. The duration of the shielding is somewhere between one or two seconds, but the shield is otherwise unbreakable.

If stuck, the shield will emit a projectile back to the damage source that does approximately 80 damage, regardless of actual damage dealt by the source. Enemies running into the shield are bumped away slightly. The shield's application is primarily to run up in the face of a gun puppy, block his bullets and return fire. Let's have a look at our checklist:

-Holy crap on a stick it's an unbreakable reflection shield! That is awesome!

Checks out to me!

Next up will be pretend to be the anti-undead sword but actually be something else.

Bild des Benutzers Thunderbog
Thunderbog
uh

Why not Supernova with Fire status addon?

Bild des Benutzers Zeddy
Zeddy
Clarify, kindly

Do you mean to just slap fire onto the existing Supernova or to make another neutral branch that has fire on it?

I have many reasons, including that it's thematically consistent with the elemental, freezing, slightly negative knockbacky catalyzer, and that dag nabbit, I want a gravity gun.