Spiral Knights - Auto Target: let's separate facts from fiction!

Auto Target: let's separate facts from fiction!

78 replies [Last post]

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 03:22

Krakob

Arguing about the effects of AT tends to end in flamewars and lots of claims without proof. I'd like that all to end by proving various things and thus, I shall do my best to gather such proof, explain why it's proof, and put it in a list further down this post.

If you would like me to add something to the list, please post here. Explain what you believe and why one should believe it. Please don't argue about the use of AT here as it would just turn the topic into a flamewar. Keep it scientific and mature.

Seeking recording partners!
I need help recording some things in different perspectives, like so called ghost hits and whatnot. Some things don't even require two perspectives, two people in LD. If you wanna help me out, please post here. Do note that if you're going to help me record stuff, I need you to be able to record in a moderately high resolution, preferably without any lag. You also have to be able to send me footage through Dropbox, Skype, or whatever you might prefer so that I can compile proof with many perspectives into one video.

Proven true

AT corrects your aim by max 45 degrees for swords, 22.5 degrees for guns.

http://youtu.be/s6r5un5DmVU

AT does not work with guns while moving yet does work with swords while moving.

http://youtu.be/btObS7tXS4c

Opening the chat prompt used to disable AT.

http://youtu.be/zwsCFd0L6cQ

This bug has been fixed!

AT is server side.

http://youtu.be/TMKHC0dlF30

Your client gets input from you.
Your client says to the server that it is going to attack. It also tells the client that it's using auto target.
Your client applies auto target and starts animation.
The server hears what your client says and applies auto target and then tells all clients where you aimed.
Your client hears that and corrects itself after what the server said, causing jumps and lock ons to appear in your client.

AT range varies from weapon to weapon

http://youtu.be/_l1z_O-yGBg

this topic

Proven false

AT increases your range.

http://youtu.be/SQhU4hVxBAg

AT takes the arc of your sword or radius of your bullet into account.

http://youtu.be/rzM_AHSfeCo

AT attacks ignore invinciframes.

http://youtu.be/z8V1iSzSyOg

AT targets cloaked recons.

http://youtu.be/tq9YwgSmqqw

AT makes you lock on to targets and follow them if they are moving.

http://youtu.be/TMKHC0dlF30

Untested

AT activates when a target is Death Marked.

Rihzome

Is this true? I find that often when I'm playing LD, and I death Mark my opponent, the large red targeting reticle will appear over the closest marked target. Whether this is simply the same visual effect of AT, or an activation remains to be seen.

AT makes the server correct itself to what your client shows.

AT can make you aim at friendly NPCs.

AT aims ahead taking into account projectile speed.

I remember when I first started using guns, I thought maybe I should try AT, so I used it vs Wolvers and things that were running. When they were moving perpendicular to my shot (strafing, etc) I had no luck landing any hits with Callahan. After that, I had always assumed that AT was absolutely useless for moving targets when using guns. Of course, I only watched the animation on my side, so if the graphic lies and trails behind your target but it gets hit anyway, then (gasp) it might mean that AT actually aims ahead, server side O_o

Thu, 12/05/2013 - 03:12

Xtweeterx

And we couldn't do this years

And we couldn't do this years ago... WHY!?

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 03:25

Midnight-Dj

@Krabob

Good luck on your recording! :D And GLORIOUS TO JEMP - *Midnight was taken away by a group of 21 assassins before he could perform the Jempire salute*-

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 03:55

Reto-Da-Liz

AT is for who wants the game easy, even with stable net, OP comp and single digit ping.
Probability: 100%
Proof: do we really need proof?

(This does not go to people with 200+ ping)

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 03:59

Theirillusion

The time it takes for a target to move out of range is longer than the time between two fast swings
Probability: Very likely.
Proof: Will you add this to your videos?

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 04:13

Krakob

@Tweeter
We could have but we didn't because the interest in studying the mechanics of the game is rather low and of the ones who do study it, not all share their results to gain the upper hand in PvP and to make money on people's lack of knowledge. I'm referring primarily to the defence UV market.

@Reto
No.

@Theirillusion
I'm not entirely sure how that relates to AT as it's an indirect result of it if anything, possible to achieve with good aim. It also depends on other factors, like MSI, ASI, and weapon of choice. Could you explain more in depth if it relates directly to AT?

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 04:37

Shidara

@Reto-Da-Liz

Personally, I find that the benefit of Auto Target from a capable Knight's perspective to be situational at best. If you are using combos then it's either a great help against enemies like Wolvers, Devilites, and others small-but-agile mobs, or a pain in the neck (or rather, skull) against enemies like Lumbers where you want to slip to their sides to avoid getting pummeled. Single swipes don't really make a difference because landing the first hit is the easiest part - maintaining accuracy in a combo is what you'd want to use it for. It can also screw you up when fighting groups of enemies as it will attempt to lock you on to a single enemy, which could drive your attacks away from the rest of the pack. Not particularly beneficial.

Auto Target is a tool, not a God-mode toggle. Yes, it makes the game "easier" if you like, but only when used correctly. Like using Valkyrie in Fiend-levels, and using Dragon Scale in Compound 42. If you swap the two however, you'll soon find that the tools you picked out aren't that useful anymore. Auto Target works the same way.

---

Anyway, good luck with your endeavors, Krakob. It's about time somebody stepped up to combat the nonsense PvPers spout.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 04:49

Dragneel-Wiki

ermagherd, Shidara-San is back.

@Rita-Da-Lisa:

I agree. Like, imagine if Vokky uses AT. :(

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 05:00

Whimsicality

Complaining about Auto Target every match of Lockdown makes you more likable.
Probability: Highly improbable
Proof: "do we really need proof?"

Auto Target makes you do a complete 180 turn and kill your opponent.
Probability: Impossible
Proof: Auto Target just doesn't work that way. It's more likely your latency that shows you behind your opponent, but the server has you in front of them, leading to you getting hit. This would require a few recordings from multiple parties to prove it to some incredibly stubborn people.

Auto Target is good for guns.
Probability: Highly Improbable
Proof: Auto Target only works while standing still. If you see a gunner standing completely still and "snapping" to certain directions while firing single bullets, chances are it's Auto Target. They're going to miss more shots than if they turned off Auto Target if their intended target has half a brain and can move. Any gunner worth their salt is well aware that mobility is your best tool, and that Auto Target doesn't help one bit, but once again, many stubborn people believe otherwise.

Auto Target isn't something to always rely on.
Probability: Probable
Proof: If you are playing PVE, Auto Target makes a few things more difficult than it's worth. A group of slimes together is better disposed of via a Gran Faust Swing or Acheron charge without auto target. You're highly likely to only hit one, and then get counterattacked by the rest. If you are playing PvP and you rely on Auto Target for everything, chances are you're going to get outpredicted and outplayed at some point if you don't change it up. Would require a simple recording to show those "AA lagger unknown noobs" (my god, that "insult" is just so stupid) who's boss.

I can talk as if opinion is fact, too.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 05:33

Dragneel-Wiki

"Auto Target is good for guns.
Probability: Highly Improbable
Proof: Auto Target only works while standing still. If you see a gunner standing completely still and "snapping" to certain directions while firing single bullets, chances are it's Auto Target. They're going to miss more shots than if they turned off Auto Target if their intended target has half a brain and can move. Any gunner worth their salt is well aware that mobility is your best tool, and that Auto Target doesn't help one bit, but once again, many stubborn people believe otherwise."

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. I use AT most of the time, and while gunning, I find it easier to land bullets with it. Well ofcourse, there is no proof I can provide, but you can take it as an experience of a veteran in-game. Again, it might be my high latency that makes me feel like that, so, go on.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 05:47

#10

Ainogommon

@-@

AT with gun...I want to shot a Lumber but It let me shot at mender *Derp*

Especially when there's any Mecha kit, npc knight with proto sword It let me aim at them instead of an ENEMY!

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 05:58

#11

Krakob

@Shidara
Thanks! I do wonder if people even understand that AT is available outside of LD, as well. There's a reason I put this thread in General Discussion and not The Coliseum...

@Whimsicality
Please troll in the appropriate forum section.

For your second point, that will be proven by the first point on the OP list. Although you're just being silly, your second point does remind me about AT in motion. I'll add that, thanks.

Edit: added it.

@Gvdtok
Hm, I hadn't heard that before. AT makes you aim at friendly NPCs, you say. I'll have to give that a look.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 07:02

#12

Canine-Vladmir

What weapons are you planning on using?

From what I seen and done the Final Flourish has the most obvious AT trail. Especially after the 1st swing.
The Gran Faust/Divine Avenger has the 180 degree move. It's been accomplished by me and I'm always surprised. "Whoa! Did I just do that?" nope.
The Leviathan/Brandishes are hard to see if they have AT disabled or not.
The might Thor Hammer after the 2nd swing has that super military grade missile locking surprise. I would like to see footage of someone swinging the Hammer through its entirely Through a group of players and seeing what happens after the 2nd swing.
---
Then again, I prefer to turn on AA when I get low connections. (1 bar or 2 bars) So I'm not sure if its just the netcode from my end that is making me see this stuff. Anyway, to avoid dumb confrontations in LD, I recently crafted a Voltaic Tempest and have found LD to be more fun as a Recon/Bomber. Just Capping.
---
Fun things to do as a Bomber and seem like a troll/boss
http://oi44.tinypic.com/2czd9h1.jpg
http://oi43.tinypic.com/2epr2ad.jpg

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 07:22

#13

Skepticraven

@Krakob

I've seen the friendly NPC targeting at the entrance to the core. It was noticed with a recon ranger NPC while using a rocket hammer. I have a feeling its only moving NPCs (easiest test may be the battle sprite missions).

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 07:31

#14

Krakob

After doing some things that I thought would be very basic proofs, I've now discovered something not taken note of before.
Weapons have various AT ranges, at least guns. AP's AT range is one tile greater than the AT range of Blitz. I'll test this more in a bit.

@Canine
FF, WRH. It doesn't really matter.

@Skepticraven
Good idea, thanks for the tip!

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 08:29

#15

Ainogommon

@krakob

try The Great Escape mission(8-2) at last depth.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 08:46

#16

Krakob

That would work just as well. I might as well try with as many NPCs as possible. Recon Rangers, Mecha Knights, rescued Knights, that guy with a Blitz Needle.

In other news, I've made videos that I'll upload and link to now.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 08:50

#17

Reto-Da-Liz

Aimbots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYGlWjIKoY4

Tue, 02/04/2014 - 16:21

#18

Tenkii

I wish you the best of results!

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 09:17

#19

Krakob

@Reto
Please keep trolling to the appropriate forum section, thanks.

@Seiran
That could also work. If I do the intended test with Zeddy, I'll ask him to bring one of his Magnuses.
I'll add your claim to the main post and have it tested when I can. How do you suggest I do it? I'm thinking it could be done vs an Howlitzer head with one recording and two players. Since the Howlitzer heads move pretty fast, you shouldn't be able to hit them if you aim spot on with say, an Alchemer.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 09:49

#20

Aiden-Curry-Puff

LOL that obligatory video.

+1, and I'll volunteer as man power if needed. That seems unlikely though since I haven't been able to get screen recording working so I can't think of any useful services I could offer.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 09:54

#21

Fangel

Adding to the lock on NPCs

Bring a hammer with you for the Great Escape mission and do the dash through your group of knights. With auto-target on, you will sort of rubber band through them and end up not where you would be normally.

Tue, 02/04/2014 - 16:22

#22

Tenkii

Yeah, maybe AT hammer will do something interesting.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 10:22

#23

Feyi-Feyi

I'd like to participate in this thread.
But seeing how every thread where I tried to be sensible about AT went to hell I'm not gonna make the effort.

Proof: 100% success rate in the past.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 12:27

#24

Theirillusion

@Krakob

AT brandish noobs have their targets stuck more or less since the first hit results in 2 more following.

And yes, it is possible in theory to do it without AT, so is winning the lottery.

How to test: Ask your closest AT brandish noob with max ASI, have them face you while you wear MSI and while you don't.
Try not to get hit 2 times more after the first hit. tada.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 12:33

#25

Dean-Zane

Nuff said

Jeez.. I took off my AT about a year ago and I can at least say... I have better skills without AT.

'Nuff said

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 12:34

#26

Krakob

@Aiden
Good, I'll keep that in mind.

@Fangel
That doesn't prove if the stickiness is server side or just client side, though. You can't tell the two sides apart with just one client.

@Seiran
That was what I suggested but with well, a REALLY fast mob.

@Feyi
That's a shame. Just don't contribute to the decay you predict, k?

@Theirillusion
I can no longer take you seriously. Please troll in the appropriate forum section.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 12:33

#27

Bluebladez

"The time it takes for a target to move out of range is longer than the time between two fast swings"
Invinciframes. That's all I've got to say.

"AT aims ahead taking into account projectile speed."
I'm almost sure it doesn't. I'll need somebody to test this on.

"AT makes you lock on to targets and follow them if they are moving."
so... you walk towards them and follow them for eternity? I have no idea what you're trying to say.

"AT can make you aim at friendly NPCs"
1.when you're facing a friendly NPC, there is a small box that looks like autotarget that "locks on" to the npc. That is not autotarget, as it appears even when AT is off.
2. the NPC chat prompt range is wider than the AT range
3. it doesn't lock onto friendly mecha knights

"AT makes the server correct itself to what your client shows"
no

"AT is server side"
interesting. Improbable but possible.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 12:37

#28

Krakob

@Bluebladez

I'm not sure what you mean by invinciframes. Please present proof regarding that statement instead.

Yes, we're working on testing stuff. Test it instead of going to a thread about testing and say someone needs to test it.

It's with the attacks, most notably of toothpicks and hammers.

Please present video proof.

Please explain why you believe it's improbable.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 13:12

#29

Skepticraven

@Server side speculation

I find it more likely that it is client side.
And someone with a bad connection may be able to assist with this one.
During a disconnect, the client runs normally but the server does not respond. If someone can have auto target enabled in that timeframe while they are disconnecting - it would be a perfect test.
Read: Test during a server reboot for determining client vs server stuff.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 13:38

#30

Krakob

@Skepticraven

That's a very good idea but it would be hard to time and you would get only one shot at it. One could test by manually disconnecting. It's not hard to disable your connection.

Edit: Recorded footage of attacking against friendly knights but nothing. Gonna have to try with Mechas and Recons before I post a video, though.

Tue, 02/04/2014 - 16:24

#31

Tenkii

Client and serverside can be tested if you use two different people and record at the same time.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 13:40

#32

Krakob

@Seiran

Mobile guns allow you to turn without AT. What's meant with lock on is that you go straight at them and change direction when you otherwise can't. This only happens with AT but it's not confirmed if this happens only on your client as a display error or if it happens on the server, in which case AT is server side.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 13:55

#33

Tenkii

oh.

hm... I figured that your character's facing direction was all that mattered, so the mobile-gun-turning and weapon-turning should follow the same rules.

What case is "otherwise can't" in changing facing direction? You can change attack direction between attack inputs. But if you mean something like making hammer dash curve..? Probably not - unless that exception mentioned above actually happens where your client sees you starting a dash in one direction but the server sees you doing it in a different one.

Well, if it helps you in your testing, you'll know the server saw something different if you pull damage when your client shows you something that shouldn't have (or vice versa).

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 13:57

#34

Xtweeterx

Do I DARE think about what Feller, Ezho, Contri, and other LDers might think of this?

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 14:01

#35

Krakob

@Seiran
Yeah. Curving various dashes and movements. WRH dash, toothpick combo finisher. It even happens with Brandishes and Sealed Swords sometimes.

@Tweeter
Feller is forum banned.
I couldn't care less about what Ezho might think.
I believe Contri will understand that this is plain research and not a presentation of opinions.
I'm not trying to push any claims about AT here, I'm just attempting to gather facts.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 14:31

#36

Misty-Wellington

AT is for who wants the game easy, even with stable net, OP comp and single digit ping.

___

I can smell your delicious tears of anguish from here.

Also AT doesn't necessarily mean the game's easy, in PvE can actually mess you up.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 14:38

#37

Traevelliath

@Invinciframes:
After you take some damage, you do have a temporary invulnerability for a few frames. Same applies when you revive. If you want proof they exist, just get hit by two different enemies at the same time. You should only take 1 hit worth of damage. Same also applies to floor hazards. You will take damage almost immediately on contact with the hazard, but there is a noticeable delay before you take your second tick of damage. Also, if you've been consistently with SK for a decently long time, there was a patch a while ago that accidentally made said frames go away. Blitz Needles were able to insta-gib 4 or more players with a single charge shot from offscreen, and Cutters tore through guardians like a Fang of Vog through butter.

The only thing that needs testing is if the second hit comes before the invincibility frames wear off. I haven't played Lockdown in an eternity, but the last time I did so, I remember the second swings of my swords *sometimes* not doing damage, while the first and third would do just fine damage. I don't remember ever having this problem with my DA though, albeit I didn't have that much ASI as a Recon Swordsman.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 14:38

#38

Thunder-The-Bright

gods ain't gonna help you, son.

misty, please don't. no flame in this thread.
and btw, how does AT work when there are multiple enemies that you can lock on? which one is targeted first?
I would really like to help but right now I'm taking a break from anything that it isn't school and sonic adventure.

Tue, 02/04/2014 - 16:24

#39

Tenkii

@tweeter/others
No. This is strictly for facts. AT is simply a tool that some people decide to use. The point of this thread, as far as I'm concerned, is mapping out how it really works.

Tue, 02/04/2014 - 16:25

#40

Tenkii

oops double post

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 15:07

#41

Xtweeterx

@OP

Um... Both your hyperlinks are broked. Maybe look at them and fix them please?

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 17:05

#42

Theirillusion

Krakob, just because I use the word noob it doesn't mean I'm not serious. Please don't do that.

My theory will only prove that getting 40k damage in LD with auto target is like stealing babies from a candy.
Because there is nothing the target can do to avoid getting killed on an instant.

@people who mentioned invincible frames
Of course I know about invincible frames, you can swing once, boost, then swing again with both swings doing damage. Timing... or more like waiting, not even hard. I believe double weapon switches also make it possible to do damage right after a hit.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 17:54

#43

Whimsicality

I'm curious, does this happen to anyone else?

Assume Auto Target is set to default. If I press the Enter key, Auto Target turns itself off until the Auto Target toggle key is pressed again. It seems to be a bug for the time being, as I don't recall this being present a while back.

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 17:57

#44

Arkate

Auto Target.

Should stay in the game. WHY? BECAUSE SPIRAL KNIGHTS, IS A FRICKIN DUNGEON CRAWLER!!! I SAY THIS ALL THE TIME!!! IT WAS NOT BUILT TO BE SOME UNBALANCED, BORING, TIMESINK OF A PVP GAME!!!

Tue, 12/03/2013 - 23:55

#45

Xtweeterx

Oh really, AArkate, WhimsicAAltiy, and KrAAkob? (I'm so sorry. I just had to get these puns out. Please don't take it offensively!"

Wed, 12/04/2013 - 03:14

#46

Arilys

I think I've had a few Blitz charges missing the intended target completely in White Collar Captives because of the NPC knights. Not completely sure though. I'll keep an eye out for that mission, test that out and hopefully post a video. If I remember, I'll also try it when Scared to Death comes around, maybe I'll try it with as many guns as I have to see if it's universal or if AT only discriminates some of the guns.

... Assuming Starbound doesn't whisk me away from Cradle so hard that I'll get Stockholm syndrome and forget about SK for a few days.

@Arkate
That.... that's not the point of this thread... Calm your Caps.

Wed, 12/04/2013 - 05:35

#47

Reto-Da-Liz

@misty: no tears of anguish, just sighs for those who need an aimbot even with a clear advantage.
And fyi, i know how to play LD even with 2 bars, with a crappy mouse, on a macbook air and no AT. Cheers.

Wed, 12/04/2013 - 06:43

#48

Bleyken

@Illu stealing candies from a baby isn't easy....

Wed, 12/04/2013 - 07:54

#49

Whimsicality

Sure it is. It's the reaction from the parents that isn't so easy to deal with.

But, this isn't what this topic is all about, is it? Instead of looking at it subjectively as a matter of "it's sad" or "skill-less", let's get back on track to the concrete

Does Auto Target disable when hitting Enter?
Probability: Highly Probable
Proof: Any action that brings up the chat prompt disables Auto Target until you hit the Toggle Auto Target key.
How to recreate: Tested on punching bags and shuffle bots. Assuming Auto Target is enabled by default, any button press that brings up the chat prompt disables Auto Target. Not just Enter. Assuming controls are set to default, this means /, R, and Enter will bring up the chat prompt, and disable Auto Target.

This is a rather interesting little bug. But I'm quite fond of it, really. It gives me a way to disable AT on the fly when I forget to untick the option of it.

Wed, 12/04/2013 - 08:00

#50

Skayeth

If that disables AT, I should have used it a long time ago....

Whim, if that disables AT, I could have used that button a looonnggg time ago. -_-
我要死了。。。

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Auto Target: let's separate facts from fiction!