I'm talking about vanaduke, almirian crusaders, and deadnauts, mostly. When inspected, these monsters are "undead" or "fiend", but when you've got a damage bonus against their family... Nope.
It should be changed for three major reasons:
0. Lying to the player is bad game design
1. It feels incredibly buggy, like they should but aren't taking the extra damage
2. It hurts balance, when damage vs monster doesn't actually work
1. Like Akuryo said, they are actually neutral to shadow AND piercing
2. They are way smaller than jelly cubes but still do a significant of damage
3. They have about the same defence as jelly cubes even though the green minis have really low defence
4. they are unaffected by Dark Retribution's orbiting orbs but the green minis ARE affected.
5. When you charge a weapon (Brandish line, 4*/5* antigua line etc.) the charge sometimes just stop. E.g. the exploding bullets from the antigua line just explode there when it is supposed to go through monsters and knock them back (same with 4*/5*sealed sword line, brandish explosions also just stop etc.)
There could be more but the most annoying thing is probably number 5
Something that actually makes sense: they have lower health than jelly cubes.
they take the yellow damage from an obs edge slash though ... and yes, the little purple snots can be quite annoying, i once died because i left sk while in RJP with a mini jelly and after like 9 sec, came back, dead as i was reviving with emergency rev
yes, they sometimes take some yellow damage but that does not mean they are weak to the damage type (the weird thing is, if your damage is medium, it is blue, medium high, it is yellow but when it is very high, it turns blue again)
Putting Vanaduke into Undead / Fiend catagory makes next to no sense. He is weak against piercing. Yep. He is strong against Shadow... Yep. He deals ELEMENTAL. Wait. What? Yep. Even Darkfire deals Elemental damage.
I don't see any problem with having some monsters not follow the general rules. It makes the player have to use different tactics for that particular monster, which adds variety to the game. Bosses and rare monsters (ones that are not seen randomly spawning in the arcade, like Royal Mini Jellies or Almirian Crusaders) are unique for a reason, so just having the same method of killing them the same as every other monster in the game would be uneventful and lacking in imagination. It's for these reason why i say not having them in the monster family when family bonus damage is calculated, or having them deal/resist damage of a different type or the same type but in a different way from all other monsters in the family is actually a good design choice. As long as it only pertains to rare monsters, not ones that spawn everywhere like Jelly Cubes or Zombies.
yes i do agree that a little out-of-the-box element is important but it's very unorganized. say you get a new monster that deal shadow, strong against elemental, and weak against shadow, where'd you classify it? should we just dump all the unclassified future monsters into existing monster families that seem most appropriate or put them in the No Type classification? or rather do we have to create a new family of monster to have it fit the description and have a little guild (family) of its own?
(ive opened up a thread about another 12 possible monster families if you havent noticed)
@Rihzome
If the game tells me he is a fiend, then he should take extra damage from things that fiends take extra damage from.
More specifically- "Damage vs Fiend"
If OOO wants to make a fiend that deals elemental damage, then they should change the definition of what a "fiend" is, or provide some explanation of why the boss is labeled "fiend" but isn't doing shadow damage. But no matter what, they shouldn't just be like "YUP. FIEND. RIGHT THERE." and then not reward the player for bringing damage vs fiend to the fight.
Yes, they could just reclassify Vanaduke as whatever else he could possibly be. Make him his own family. But it would be better to let damage vs fiends effect him, for balancing reasons. One of them is that if I go with say, chaos over divine veil, I get damage bonus med rather than damage vs fiends med. Removing the offensive buff from divine veil for the fight makes it far far worse than chaos.
@Masterreeve
Then the game should make that out to be their special ability, rather than telling you that they'll be effected by your damage bonus, and then not being so.
Another concern is that it works exactly against what you're saying. If I know that the big bads of Legion of Almire won't be effected by my damage bonuses, I'm going to use weapon damage against them. This is a problem because there are many of these monsters that don't take damage from damage vs them, and so I use my weapon bonuses every single time.
Rather, it would be nice to say- "Wow, deadshot would be great here!" And then have it actually work on a level that it claims to be great for. Isn't that what you want? Unique ways of dealing with levels?
@ Akuryo
I'd have to agree that if the monster deals/resists different sets of damage than the current monsters than they should be classified as a new monster type. I wouldn't mind putting in a few extra monster families into the game, as long as all 12 are not added at once (maybe make an event for 1~2 new families every few months or so).
@ Fehzor
Then yea, it should be changed to some kind of special ability. Not saying that the game is right the way they did it, but I would like some of the monsters to be unique from the rest of the family. Possibly have the monsters clearly listed as "Resistant to Monster Family Bonuses" on the wiki or something having it resist only a percentage of the damage instead of all of it, and make that resistance void when being death marked (I remember seeing a new weapon thread a while back that suggested adding a sword that deals a weakened form of death mark, this could apply to that as well).
You know, if they did do it, it'd be cool if they made a "drone" family for shankles and whisps. This drone family could then be made to include the almirian crusaders, if that's what they're for.
Though almirian crusaders come across as being undead to me. I still think its kinda game breaking though, for monster family bonuses to just do nothing half the time while chaos and snarbolax etc. work 100% of the time. Really if they resist the damage buff from their family, other damages shouldn't work on them either, and then it'd be a thing.
more classes bring more "dmg against [monster]" UVs which lower the chances of getting asi/ctr but hey, those things would make it even more valuable. plus if we had more monster families, we could mix them up in their themes (ex: beasts and flora which youd need a dragon set to counter or any ele x pierce armor) which would create more levels. heck why not add a certain gate that for each level, would be a random level from any theme (and maybe themes can not be consecutively the same)?
Some monsters do deal out-of-family damage; Quicksilvers' Supercharge attacks, for example, deal Elemental damage (and Shock). Vanaduke being a boss, and thus a unique enemy, is another good argument for an Elemental-damaging Fiend.
However, if they label him a Fiend, Vanaduke should take extra damage from Damage Bonus: Fiend. Otherwise, they should label him "Boss" or "Untyped".
You know, I don't ever remember OOO every saying Vanaduke was a fiend. Players just call him that since he deals shadow (sometimes) and is semi-weak to piercing. Even the wiki doesn't strictly classify him as a fiend. All the bosses are in a class of thier own, Vana is just the only one with uniqe damage/weaknesses
Back when the label on the health bar on enemies was first introduced, Vanaduke's used to say 'fiend'. It hasn't done that in a very long time.
I still think they should slap a family on Vanaduke. Maybe gremlin, just for the laughs.
So it doesn't call him a "fiend" any more?
That would be better then, though I do think that giving him a family of monsters to come from would be preferred to not.
@Arkuyo
More monster families? Wouldn't you rather OOO make more enemies for the existing monster families? I mean, beast family only has 3 members. Wolvers, Chromas and the tiny rabbit enemies.
yeah, beasts need more love, but it's an idea worth mentioning
Of course if new monster families were ever to be added, there would first need to be new monsters for the existing families. We still need a giant for every family, and more support and ranged classes. But I would like to see more families eventually.
I don't get what is so hard about making new mobs with new names... When I was a kid I had 2 friends that we made our own dungeon&dragon (with sheets) enemies, character and whatnot...
Pokemon did it so many times, IDK why OOO have problem doing it...
"no kobold/troll/gnoll/elf" well okay times to pull random mobs name out of my... head
Mudscrawn (a demonic fiend)
Klappaw (a punching robot)
Hyrwan (a beast flying mob)
That took me litterally 3 minutes to come up with... IDK what's so hard about making new mobs, OOO art team seems okay at resizing and cropping existing content...
Why isn't there a giant devilish (Snarbolax size) that shoots building on your head?
I agree with Fehzor about balance though...
yep, in RJP, mini jellies take normal from sentenza
one of the reasons that sk is limited because of the limits set on itself (duh). i mean that for example, you want to make a boss but it doesnt belong to any monster class like Vana so you dump him in the most logical class (undead). also, you want more weapon variation like maces/flails/whips/scyhtes but the only classifications are sword/handgun/bomb so it most likely will fall on sword even if it's not (exhibit A: WMRH). they should either make more classes or make other labels/classes more broad to cover other stuff