Spiral Knights - Bomb balance issues

Bomb balance issues

77 replies [Last post]

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 23:10

Nick

Developer

Please read:
This thread is here to collect useful balance issues relating to bombs. Posting balance issues requires a specific format outlined below. Posts detailing a balance issue not using the outlined format will be deleted. We want to keep this clean so that it's easy for us to parse.

Secondly, we want to get feedback from experienced players who believe they have an understanding of the item they are describing. Please do not post with knee-jerk reactions to using an item. Once you feel as though you have a grasp of the item and feel there is a balance issue, we welcome your feedback.

Please use the following format:

Bomb Name

Summary: A one sentence summary of the balance issue.

Followed by a detailed description. Try to be as specific as possible.

Example:

Ice Bomb

Summary: The ice bomb's effectiveness does not match the other bombs in its series.

The ice bomb's effectiveness is inferior to that of the fire and poison bomb. Testing all of them on various monsters, the ice bomb hardly ever seems to freeze monsters, while the fire bomb and poison bomb causes their respective status conditions regularly. Given that the bomb has such low damage, it's likely that it's chance of causing freeze should be higher.

Sun, 05/29/2011 - 23:26

Nick

Developer

One more thing: should you

One more thing: should you want to offer a counterpoint to an issue another player brings up, feel free to do so, discuss, etc. But for bringing up a new issue, we would appreciate the format outlined above. Thanks!

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:27

Fallout

Irontech/Irontech

Irontech/Irontech Destroyer

Summary: The bomb is incomparable to other Blast bombs.

Comparing the Irontech Series to ither blast bombs, it is quite terrible and ineffective. The slow walking speed, long fuse and relatively similar damage (comparing Master blast to Irontech) puts players off using it, and the only thing that a bombardier could use it for, is for the knockback. It cannot be used mid combat as mobs will surround the player before the fuse is finished. A mob can easily cover the distance from where it was flung to the player before another bomb is placed - resulting in death. Master blast bomb is easily the better option, with the shorter fuse, normal walking speed, and decent damage. The difference in damage on the Irontech vs. Master Blast is pretty much the same. Nitronome Vs. Irontech Destroyer is a similar story.
Overall this bomb can be improved by adding larger damage, or reducing the length of the fuse. This bomb series needs to be the 'Middle' bomb (medium fuse, walking speed, damage)

Rock Salt/Ionized Salt Bomb

Summary: Has a High+ dmg to Jelly while having piercing damage (which cancels out) then has normal damage which isn't effective or ineffective to any mobs.

Really having piercing damage and the High jelly bonus wasn't a good move as they cancel. There isn't a lot of use using this against jellies (especially as most jellies spawn in mobs, and shock on ionized?(rofl with quicksilvers)) and the normal damage doesn't quite make up for it. Comparing it Sun shards which has piercing elemental and fiend + (which absolutely wrecks fiends) it is the lesser. It was a good move as an attempt to balance it with the Shock thing. to make it balanced I suggest adding a small knock-back/knockdown (then stats wont have to change). You can't do to much to work around the jelly part (lore would be messed up), and personally i kind of like this bomb. I just here a lot of complaints, as well as i find it hard to use in some situations.

Big Angry Bomb.

Summary: Doesn't quite match Nitronome's standard (passes Irontechs easily). Small radius.

The damage, walking speed and fuse time is perfect, as well as the effects(scream), however It is felt that the radius is to small to be used over the Nitronome. It just doesn't meet the bombers(my) need for a high powered, big, angry, bomb. To fix it; increase the radius a bit or make the knock-back really awesome (knock-back on vannaduke?!?!?0.o). The bomb is verging on being the same as irontech destroyer.

Blast bombs
Just clearing this up (how it should be):

Nitro (smallest damage, shortest fuse, fastest walking speed) --> Irontech Destroyer (medium damage, medium fuse, average walking speed) --> Big angry (massive damage, longest fuse, slowest walking speed.)

It will just be hard to get the sweet spot for all of them, however base it all off the current Nitronome.

*~~~~~~*

Still to Write up:
-Gravidos (walking speed and radius are fairly low compared to other 4* bombs) Done ~ Jeburk
-Graviton Vortex (knock-back at end defeats the purpose) Done ~ Jeburk

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 02:56

Pawn

Venom Veiler

Summary: Venom Veiler poison is very weak and very short in duration.

The poison on the venom veiler is so weak that often times using simply makes the fight take longer than it would take had you skipped dropping the venom and dropped another bomb instead. This is even true vs fights with menders. It would go a long way to improving the usefulness of the bomb if the duration of the poison was lengthened. It would go a long way to improving the usefulness of the bomb if its poison status decreased opponents attack or defense power more significantly. And/Or (maybe my favorite) it would be much more useful if it had a larger damage radius on explosion. Perhaps you could even do something novel like give it a shard based attack in ADDITION to the poison cloud. :) This would make it uniquely positioned in the bomb family.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 02:58

Fallout

Demo sets?!?!

Also I'm going to assume this thread can be used for the relating armors so:

Volcanic Demo Set

Summary: unbalanced from armor to the helm.

The volcanic set is fine, apart from the helm having a medium CTR, compared to the armors low CTR.
There is essentially no reason to get the Volcanic demo suit over the helm unless you are using it as a 'set'. However, many players choose a Mad bomber suit with a Volcanic helm (the set looks quite sad visually though), instead of the volcanic suit and the mad bomber helm (which looks great as a set). So if it is intended to balance this purely based on visuals - please don't. Basically the only fix this needs is to make Volcanic Demo suit medium CTR, or give Volcanic Demo helm a low CTR (increase defensive stats to keep it balanced with the other sets).

Bombastic Demo Set

Summary: No one likes it - No charge time reduction only a low damage bonus, and visuals make it look to similar to lower tier demo gear.

Compared to all other demo lines this set is a "STAY AWAY FROM IT" set. It only has low damage bonus, no CTR (which most bombers want).
The art is just pale green and a blueish color - certainly not something expected as a 5star equip and looks like it is just fused and heavy demo mashed together. even the VERY unbalanced Chaos cloak+cowl can be favored over this set.
Basically this set needs to have High damage bonus on the suit and helm (lower ele + norm defence as well) OR have incredi-awesome art. <-- (I will never blame Boswick if that happens)

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:02

Pawn

Graviton

The graviton (and i'm assuming graviton vortex-i'll find out tomorrow) lacks visual impressiveness.

The graviton really finishes on a whimper as the shadow damage is dealt and the enemies are flung wide. However, there is really no visual explanation for why the enemies are knocked back! On second they are kinda spinning in a small, flat (2D) purple, whirling graphic then they fly out in all directions with no visual or audio clues to suggest why such a thing would happen. I strongly suggest putting some sort of shadow bomb explosion on the end. Also i think the whole attack animation needs reworked, needs a more inspired visual appeal. The 'vortex' it creates needs to look less flat. Visually it is just a very unstimulating bomb. The audio is not great either on it. When you drop a 5* venom, fire, ice, or blast bomb, someone new to the game is going to see it and say, 'hey what was that!!! wow!!'. Not so on the graviton.

P.S. Thanks for these threads :)

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:04

Pawn

Bomb Of Shocking

Bomb of shocking

There is no Bomb of shocking (with blast radius).

Basically that's it. I love the shock effect vs monsters, and there is really no elite shock options for bombers. As a bomber i don't like shard bombs personally. I like a bomb with a blast radius. I guess there was a new 1* shock bomb introduced, but it hardly fills the niche for a shock bomb for serious bombers. I would love to see it added right there in the hazebomb lines with venom/fire/poison.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:08

Pawn

@ fallout

Good point on the bombastic demo. Another option would be to swing it the other way and give it high ice/poison/something else defense (like volcanic has high fire) and then also include a Boss Battle themed around the new element. Basically now u need (or want) volcanic armor on account of FSC, something similar could happen with other resists.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:39

Fallout

^ thanks for Graviton+ vortex

^ thanks for Graviton+ vortex ill take it off my list.
Yeah i stayed away from venom- just didn't give a good impression of greatness in the preview but i didn't know why. (thanks for that)

also about the shock bomb > try static flash in t3 the resulting damage from the shock is awesome (at least last time i checked cold snap did 'bout the same 'crack' damage as freezy). I used my CTR medium firecracker in t2 sometimes and it is epic (radius limitations is arguable).

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:34

Shoebox

Summary: Bombs are too

Summary: Bombs are too slow.

Compared to the other weapons, bombs are very slow weapons.
They require calculation and tactical placement.

You have to account for the time you're frozen when placing a bomb near a monster.
And sometimes, by the time the bomb goes off, faster monsters you've kited will have rushed over the bomb or teleported about.
In a group, co-ordinating bombs gets even more difficult.

In the preview, you used to be able to drop bombs uncharged.
This put them into the adequate speed category, but made them quite overpowered when used to kite monsters.

So I suggest two possible solutions:

Increased Attack Speed effects bomb timer countdowns: This one is fairly simple. Bomb IAS does nothing. Making it do something, something which could be considered positive by some bombers could increase bomb utility without making them overpowered.
Make charging a second bomb destroy the first one: A less likely idea, but this one would involve allowing you to detonate bombs whenever you like. However, depending on the completion of the bomb countdown, you would get diminished returns on your bomb placement.
Example: If you detonate a bomb just as you place it, the explosion would be the size of your shield bubble and deal 50% less damage.

I think either of these changes would help further balance the weapon categories, making it a less clear cut choice which weapons to take out on a run through certain areas with you, without making any drastic changes to how weapons work as a whole like I have suggested in the past.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 03:33

#10

Fallout

Shoooooeeebooox stop thinking outside of yourself.

D= But i love bombs how they are. Nitronome is a great example of what bombing is about in SK. --> everything is good, apart from that i can't spam bombs as much as i could in the preview with mad bomber set + charge trinkets. (i.e. raise the CTR cap for bombs)

Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:34

#11

Eeks

Bombastic Demo Set Summary:

Bombastic Demo Set
Summary: The set is not good compared to Volcanic Demo or Bombastic Demo and has no practical use.

Bombastic Demo has really no advantages over any of the other sets. All the other sets have pros and cons but Bombastic is pretty much all cons. Not only is it visually unappealing, but the stats don't stack up with other sets. Upgrading from Heavy Demo to Bombastic loses all CTR bonuses which is the main reason people run bomber armor.

Damage increases really only apply to one bomb. While the haze series are very popular, they're mainly used to spread status and not damage with the elmental blast so I'm only going to continue this post discussing the nitronome or blast bomb. I'll bring in some numbers.

CTR Measurements from this thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/7545#comment-52072

Blast Bomb:
0 2.327s
2 2.002 (medium - bombastic)
3 1.801
4 1.668 (heavy demo)
5 1.485 (volc demo 25.8%)
6 1.352 (mad bomber 32.47%)

Damage measurements from this thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/7342#comment-50044

DEP BSE MED VHI MAX D16 095 108 121 --- D19 148 --- 186 --- D20 159 179 200 220 D21 169 191 213 235 D22 180 203 227 250 D24 193 219 --- 271 D25 195 222 --- 276 D26 198 226 --- 281 D27 200 229 --- 286 D28 203 216 262 291

From the damage UV thread we can conclude that the damage increase is approximately ~13% for +med which is what Bombastic provides. Now let's look at damage on D22:

Volcanic:
Ultra CTR: 1.485s
Damage: 180
DPS: 121.2

Mad Bomber:
Max CTR: 1.352s
Damage: 227
DPS: 167.90

Bombastic Demo:
Med CTR: 2.002s
Damage: 203
DPS: 101.4

Heavy Demo (just for laughs!)
Vhigh CTR: 1.668
Damage: 180
DPS: 107.91

----

Now the first two sets make sense. Volcanic Demo has average DPS but it has fire resist, more normal defense, and it still has a fast CTR to spread status with. Mad bomber does a TON of DPS but it has drawbacks of less normal defense and a ton of negative status. Heavy Demo gear is tried and true with less DPS than Volcanic and less defense overall but it is clearly the younger brother..

Upgrading Heavy into Bombastic though actually leaves you doing LESS damage per second than the 4* set (what?). Not only that but all your other bombs also charge slower as well so it isn't just worse at damage but it is worse for spreading status making the set just laughable in regards to utility.

Proposed changes
* Lower normal defense and give it more elemental defense so it is the opposite of Volcanic. (basically flip the defenses) So now Volcanic has more normal, Mad has low on both, and Bombastic has high ele and low normal. This is more for variety than any practical purpose.
* Give Bombastic demo both CTR and DMG bonuses. It doesn't really make sense to take CTR low away from these pieces when they had them since 2*. Increase DMG bonus on the helm to medium. (Helm: MED dmg, LOW ctr, Suit: LOW dmg, LOW ctr)
* Update visuals to make suit look unique

Result:
NEW Bombastic Demo:
Vhigh CTR: 1.668
High DMG: 216
DPS: 129

Right in the middle of the two sets. You give up fire resist and normal def but get more DPS but slower CTR for status. It's basically Mad Bomber light for those too cowardly to don the negative status helm and suit.

Volcanic Demo
Pros: Good normal defense, fire resist, fast CTR for spreading status, average DPS
Cons: Not fastest CTR, no damage bonuses, lower ele def

Mad Bomber
Pros: max CTR for keeping multiple status rings up, highest DPS
Cons: Low normal and ele defense, negative status resists

Bombastic Demo
Pros: Good elemental defense, average CTR for spreading status, above average DPS
Cons: Low normal defense, slower CTR than other sets

BTW: I feel the Volcanic/Mad Bomber sets are balanced as is. I run both sets and a mix of both sets (Full Volc, Full Mad, Volc Helm/Mad Suit) I think balancing the Bombastic out would make the bomber set the most balanced armor alchemy lines in the game as far as mix and matching goes.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 06:14

#12

Eeks

@Jeburk regarding Venom

@Jeburk regarding Venom Veiler:
I agree with you that the debuff doesn't do enough. The bomb isn't viable at all solo and it pales in comparison to the Shivermist and Ash of Agni. From what I've tested in Tier 3, the debuff adds about 6% damage but depending on the weapon attacking enemies, the Ash of Agni's ticks deal way more damage.

Stopping menders from healing units is helpful but the Shivermist freezing a mender and sniping him out when he can't dodge attacks is much more effective which is a bit ironic since that is one of poison's main purposes (neutralizing healers). On top of that, from my tests in Tier 3, I was unable to kill a lumber while statusing him with a 4* venom bomb while hitting him with the elemental+ blast bomb in between while 2 menders were healing him. Either ground heal is bugged or poison is really bad but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I agree that the duration should be lengthened to give the bomb more combo potential and use while running solo (as of now if you use VV then switch weapons you barely have enough time to take advantage of poison). I initially made it to deal with healers in T3 solo but its ineffectiveness made me drop it from my lineup completely.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 06:24

#13

Eeks

Graviton Bomb Summary: Bomb

Graviton Bomb
Summary: Bomb is not very useful as a damage bomb or a crowd control bomb.
Disclaimer: I have not used the Graviton Vortex, however, it is my understanding that the bomb behaves similarly.

Being the only shadow dealing bomb means the Graviton has a lot to live up to but it falls short of all of my expectations. As a damage bomb it is average. It pales in comparison to fire ticks or the raw speed of something like a nitronome. As a crowd control bomb it is great until the short duration ends and enemies are violently spread in all directions. The purpose of crowd control is control and the Graviton lacks that. The shivermist is predictable; enemies are frozen until they are hit or thawed out. The Blast bomb series is also predictable; enemies are pushed perpendicular to the bomb explosion. The Graviton bomb is fun but it is too chaotic and dangerous to use. Some adjustments I would like to see is a lengthened vortex to allow for combos with other weapons/team play and an adjusted finale to the bomb.

The big issue with balance here will be that if enemies are just funneled out of the graviton slowly it can create a situation where the Graviton is overpowered (just keep sucking them into the next vortex). Instead maybe the bomb could be directional and spit enemies out in the direction the knight was facing when he dropped it or something else. Either way the current set-up for the bomb makes it almost unusable in T3 because enemies can fly out and just wreck teammates (lol)

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 10:17

#14

Oppenheimer

I think the idea is to lay

I think the idea is to lay the problems out in our initial post with a detailed, straight-forward and professional manner, similar to a Bug Report, about specific game imbalance between the current weaponry. THEN we can discuss our thoughts on suggestions, be it for improvements in combat or aesthetic appeal :P Keep the official reports clear of personal opinion! :D

That said, I totally agree about the Blast bomb alternates, Graviton, and Venom Veiler. There's almost no point to taking any other blast bomb except the Nitronome; the Graviton's apparent purpose is done better by the Shivermist, as well as having any strength undercut by its flaws; and the Venom Veiler needs a longer duration poison.

Seeing as the VV is already situational enough in requiring live healers, and it's damage is practically nothing, it's not a bomb that lends itself to being spammed. If the poison duration were increased, we could drop it, poison them, then go about our business killing them. The bomb remains situational enough that we don't use it all the time, and carrying one still fills a precious slot, but it is a useful and effective bomb when we do.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 14:03

#15

Fallout

Basically everything buggy has been layed out, thats why we are commenting? so we are doing it right. I r a goodest bombar guy - i r nowing of stuff.
Awesome work on the suits eek! yeah V demo is balanced - it's just the helm and armor are two different things....>.< (why'd i get the suit? WHY?)

also i think this thread is done? most of the worst balances are clear.... unless someone wants to elaborate a point.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 15:10

#16

Oppenheimer

I think the only thing is

I think the only thing is that there aren't enough bombs to comment on. Once we mentally strip out the bombs that perform poorly, or are just not interesting, there really are only 3 bombs left: Nitronome, Ash of Agni, and Shivermist. We've no diversity.

@Fallout And I wasn't trying to implicate you didn't know your stuff. I KNOW you do. Just in the presentation. :D

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 15:06

#17

culture

Legacy Username

Deconstructor/Heavy Deconstructor

Summary: Bomb doesn't live up to its intended purpose.

This is a problem with WHB and CIV too. Slightly increasing specialized damage doesn't make up for lowered damage against everything. These monster-specific weapons could be really useful, but the current mechanism for doing so isn't the way.

I think we need a different damage mechanism - specifically something that would do perhaps double damage to the intended target and maybe 40% damage to everything else. As an example, if a Master Blast Bomb 4* did 182 at Depth 24 then a Heavy Deconstructor 4* should do approximately 364 damage to Constructs and 73 damage to everything else. Now Lumbers can go down in 3 bomb blasts instead of the 6. The damage would then be on-par with using a DA's swing against Constructs at that depth.

With this kind of damage adjustment bringing a Heavy Deconstructor along suddenly makes sense but only for specific levels or strata. Also, as intended, it isn't something you'd use on all monsters.

Right now there is no reason to stray from the generalized solution (a la Nitronome) because the specialized weapons are underwhelming for their purposes.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 15:03

#18

Pawn

Re: Venom Veiler

Another suggestion would be for VV to have a specialized poison that weakens mobs defense specifically to bomb damage. So that in a large fight it was beneficial for bombers to drop the VV and then use other bombs. I really like the idea of the Bomber dropping/stacking Dots and combo bomb damage. Much more interesting than running circles using 1 bomb.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 15:05

#19

Pawn

@ culture

I was just about to post something very similar!

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 15:08

#20

Pawn

EMP bomb

Deconstructer/EMP bomb

A bomb that disables Constructs for X amount of time--> deconstructor needs 5* bomb path...especially consider the 4* is probably subpar to 4* blast bomb--at the very least we can surmise that a 5* deconstructor would still be inferior to 5* blast bomb, based on empirical evidence.

Maybe split the tech path from heavy deconstructor to 2 5* bombs. A damage based one vs constructs and an EMP that disables constructs for a certain amount of time.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 15:16

#21

culture

Legacy Username

Tagging onto the VV discussion...

Poison might be bugged for the floor healing circle? I tried pushing poisoned enemies into a floor healing circle expecting them to take damage but they seemed to keep healing. Not sure though.

Poison would be more useful if it blocked the poisoned creature from healing others. So a poisoned mender couldn't heal other monsters until the effect wore off, or make healing circles, or revive someone, or turn on a dome shield thingy. Then I'd consider using VV more often :D

Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:34

#22

Eeks

@Jeburk re:deconstructor: I

@Jeburk re:deconstructor:
I forgot all about the deconstructor bomb. Ironically the name is exactly what bombers desperately need, basically a bomb to deal with gun puppies, but like the VV it doesn't live up to its name. As of now the only answer for gun puppies is to carry a sword or participate in the slowest, most tedious battle ever. Perhaps the answer would be to make a 5* deconstructor with a fuse slightly longer than nitronome but split its damage into 3 seperate and simultaneous attacks which would cancel turret charge attacks. I don't know how balanced this would be but it is a solution that would work within the current system.

@ohgodmyhead:
>I think the only thing is that there aren't enough bombs to comment on.

This is really true. Bombs are still missing curse, shock, stun, sleep status (I doubt any of these will ever happen for balance reasons lol) and good elemental (haze doesn't really count), shadow, pierce (5* please?) bombs. It's pretty sad that my shadow bomb is a nitronome w/ UV dmg to slimes, my elemental bomb is a nitronome w/ UV dmg to undead, and my pierce bomb is a nitronome UV dmg to beast.

Graviton is bad at dealing main damage since its DPS is incredibly low and is more of a crowd control bomb that is really bad at its job. Haze bombs are status effect bombs and not really damage bombs so they're more useful for their status to undead and construct rather than dealing elemental damage to them (although I do use it for this!) I can't really comment on sun shards since I have never used it.

I honestly wouldn't mind just seeing some cookie cutter blast bombs that dealt different damage but if you wanted to get creative then we could brainstorm that direction too although this probably isn't the thread for it. Damage bombs that AREN'T push would be welcome too since some people are bad at using nitronome for crowd control since it requires more strategy than just plopping them on the ground anywhere you want.

For now though, the answer to pure bombers looking to actually deal damage is to use a sword.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 19:50

#23

Npasq

Legacy Username

@culture If a Mender tries to

@culture

If a Mender tries to heal an enemy that is Poisoned, the Mender will take damage, not the thing that the Mender tries to heal.

Curse (on a Mender or Butterfly) and Poison (on the things that Menders and Butterflies target) are the BEST, EASIEST, and dare I say most delightfully satisfying, ways to kill Healers.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 20:29

#24

Patito

and another thing

All these suggestions are good, but a meta-suggestion, or a plea really... I know this isn't in the format you requested, apologies.

Right now the shivermist buster, ash of agni and nitronome are really great things. They make me really happy to be a bomber. I feel quite useful to my peers in a group and quite capable on my own, and the game play is diverse and rewarding in both those situations. In balancing bombs, I would really love to see the other bombs brought to a level that would tempt me away from these bombs and not these bombs brought down to a level that I might start using the others.

Also, if what Npasq says about poison and menders is true, poison doesn't really make sense at all.

Mon, 05/30/2011 - 23:01

#25

Fallout

Well, i actually prefer Heavy

Well, i actually prefer Heavy decon over master blast.... i don't think it needs balancing, but i guess it does need some balance in the lore side of things. but ive noticed a slight debuf with the decon, as last preview i could take gunpuppies down with 2 bombs, and lumbers with 4..... it is no longer the case, but the radius has been improved since then.

but...this thread is kinda slipping away from its original purpose. lol.

Tue, 05/31/2011 - 05:11

#26

Bigindian

@jeburk excelent point, I

@jeburk excelent point, I have a graviton and now I noticed the animation looks like a GIF

if the animation is improved to look cooler I'll love that bomb a lot more

Tue, 05/31/2011 - 06:53

#27

Kaybol

Legacy Username

@Shoebox: bombs are too slow - indeed!

I agree with your post. To me personally bombing was a lot of fun until I saw what Gremlin Demos can do. Sure, bombers would be overpowered if they could throw bombs, or drop multiple bombs at the same time, but it sure feels like something's missing.

When going to place a bomb, you don't get more safety than when you're charging up a sword or gun. I have recently crafted an Avenger and a Faust and as a result my Fiery Atomizer has just become unimpressive. Even in the Jelly Palace I don't use it anymore. Fair enough, the Sealed Swords are supposed to be impressive weapons in comparison to most others, yet it feels like something's missing on bombs.

A bomber spamming out one bomb after the other (as per the start of the preview) is overpowered as you pointed out, although it is currently quite possible to do so if you start charging one bomb straight after the other. But in the meantime you're more vulnerable than when using a sword or gun.

I would like to be able to place a bomb without charging it.

Put a limit on the number of concurrent bombs you can place. Uncharged bombs may be nerfed versions of what they are now, or even have different effects from what they have now. Hey, swords and guns work that way! Depending on how far uncharged bombs get nerfed, the limit on concurrent bombs can be 1, 2 or 3. Charge time on bombs could be increased, depending on the other changes.

I think the fact that bombs always need to be charged also is what makes shard bombs unpopular among bombers and all-rounders alike.

P.S. The incredibly long animation when you tap the attack button while wielding a bomb is annoying and too punishing as well. Does anyone else feel this way?

Tue, 05/31/2011 - 09:08

#28

Patito

@kaybol

all of the haze bomb lines are lackluster UNTIL 5*... then they are pretty amazing. This is actually a good point... the difference between a fiery atomizer and an ash of agni is ludicrous compared to other 4* to 5* transitions (freezing atomizer and shivermist is the same). Perhaps a small bump to the atomizers radius to make that transition a little less spectacular is in order.

Thu, 06/02/2011 - 15:15

#29

Syor

Legacy Username

Ionized Salt Bomb Line

Ionized Salt Bomb

Summary: 4* charges slower than 3*

I had a test with a my guild mate, with the result of having my maximum charge time reduction 4* ionized salt bomb charging as fast as a low charge time reduction 3* rock salt bomb and from looking at certain video and my experience with using the Ionized Salt Bomb, I can greatly feel the difference in charge time as compared to it's companion, the colorful Radiant Sun Shard <3

I also do agree with fallout that having extra slime damage defeats the purpose of having a piercing type + projectiles type bomb, resulting in a whooping damage of less than 75 in tier 3 in addition to it's slow speed when compared to the silversix line or it's companion, radiant sun shard. hence, there should be an increase in damage per projectile shots as single shot does not deal as much area of effect damage as a blast radius and a fix on the charge time.

Thu, 06/02/2011 - 15:08

#30

parvus

Legacy Username

Big Angry Bomb: An

Big Angry Bomb:
An interesting and fun bomb to use (love the sound effects and angry face!)
However as Fallout indicated, the blast radius is somewhat lacklustre. ctr, decreased mvmnt speed are understandable though.

Sat, 06/04/2011 - 03:16

#31

phandaria

Legacy Username

Blast animation

Blast Bomb - Nitronome series

Summary : Nitronome blast always caused slight delay

The bomb animation (nitronome series) always caused slight delay and proved to be inconvenience in playing, especially with bomb spamming. (May apply to other kind of bombs with big blast animation. Haze bomb series is perfectly fine though)
If possible, create some options for lower specs computer to run smoothly by minimizing big animation, but the animation must still show the area of effect.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 17:35

#32

actinium

Legacy Username

Graviton Bomb It can't hit

Graviton Bomb

It can't hit gremlins in t3

Because gremlins in t3 have the shield on their backs only the ones that are facing the center of the vortex when it goes off get hurt, which is maybe a third in a big group and never if it's a single gremlin. As gremlins are one of the shadow weak monsters this bomb is only really useful for slimes.

I mostly just wanted to point that out since no one else has, but I second most of the other complaints. It's not as good a control bomb because there's no safe way to approach a vortex full of constantly shifting monsters and the blast can fling them around dangerously, even more so then a blast bomb because you can't control the direction of the pushback based on placement. If you do try to take advantage of the clustered enemies with a sword or other bomb attack it will often knock them out of the vortex and negate the admittedly lackluster explosion damage. I don't want to bog this down with some page long description of an idea that belongs in the suggestions section but maybe if it didn't explode at all and just ticked a little shadow damage over it's duration then faded out, i think that would be super.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 20:31

#33

Icee

Poison bombs

Toxic Atomizer

Summary: Toxic Atomizer's poison doesn't last nearly long enough to be useful.

Others have brought this up for the Venom Veiler, but I haven't used the 5* version yet, so I can only speak for the 4* version. The poison effect wears off so quickly that it is impossible to make meaningful use of. I don't particularly care if the poison is changed to better weaken enemies, as long as they stay poisoned for more than 5 seconds.

Example: A party member of mine poisoned the Jelly King with the Toxic Atomizer right before he started spinning and by the time he was done spinning the poison had worn off. Similarly, poisoning gremlins with this bomb in a deconstruction zone didn't leave enough time to kill just one of the three menders before the poison wore off.

Wed, 06/08/2011 - 20:44

#34

Icee

Shivermist and Oilers

Freezing Vaporizers/Atomizer/Shivermist

Summary: When using Shivermist in a Flamelash Arena: Slimey Showdown, frozen oilers were not extinguished.

Other players explained to me that this is because Shivermist doesn't put out the oiler ooze, so the ooze keeps burning, recatching the frozen oilers (without unfreezing them), allowing them to heal, and essentially rendering lit oilers nearly invincible. With that in mind, burning oil splotches should be extinguished by freeze bombs just as the oilers are, so laying down a freezing mist can give players a fighting chance in an arena full of red rovers and oilers. To balance out the new power given to freeze bombs, the initial tick of the bomb on a burning oiler should merely extinguish it, not freeze it. To freeze a burning oiler, one would first put out its flame, then expose it to the freezing mist a second time.

Similarly, Fiery Vaporizer bombs should ignite that oily ooze (if they don't already), not just the oilers themselves.

Thu, 06/09/2011 - 15:13

#35

Zargulis

Legacy Username

Graviton Vortex

Graviton Vortex

Summary: Graviton is extremely dangerous to use, deals little damage, and has a small radius.

The idea for Graviton is totally awesome. I love massing a bunch of monsters and swinging madly at them. However, it is inferior to most other bombs for a few reasons:

1. Greatly reduced movement speed. Since you move so slowly with the bomb, it's very difficult to charge up without being hit.
2. The damage dealt by the bomb is negligible.
3. The bomb radius is small. To catch more than 1 or 2 monsters at a time in the vortex, they all have to be chasing you, which again is very dangerous with the reduced movement speed.
4. Monsters locked in the vortex can still attack normally. If the vortex is so strong as to suck monsters in and keep them there, should the monsters really be able to move or attack while inside it?
5. As mentioned earlier by actinium, the vortex does not work on T3 gremlins. A shield should not protect a monster from gravity!

I disagree with some of the earlier posters who say Graviton is a (bad) crowd control bomb. I feel that crowd control, as a game mechanic, is to immobilize/slow/stun/etc - i.e. keep enemies away from players. Graviton, on the other hand, is meant to bring enemies together so more can be attacked at the same time.

Thu, 06/09/2011 - 16:04

#36

Oppenheimer

I think most of us call it a

I think most of us call it a bad crowd control bomb BECAUSE of all the bad you just listed. :P And I agree the Graviton Vortex radius is kinda small, and the explosive part smaller. I once tried to Grav chain several monsters, using a follow-up Graviton to pull them out of the initial Grav right as it went off, the combat equivalent of Nitronome chaining. Despite being a very risky maneuver, by all appearances the only damage the bombs did was the initial damage of each bomb (minimal) and the damage of the last one in the chain. I was kinda annoyed, cuz i thought I'd finally found a use for the bloody thing.

Thu, 06/09/2011 - 18:17

#37

CrashFu

Legacy Username

I'd just like to state that

I'd just like to state that I've employed Graviton Bombs to great success. Why, just today I survived a T2 challenge room full of gremlins and wolvers solo, with only a couple pieces of health, no pickups, and nothing but a heat-level-3 cutter and a Graviton Bomb at my disposal.

It sounds like the problems you guys are having with them is that you're trying to sword or bomb attack the trapped monsters. ... ... :I No. Don't do that, guys, it just isn't worth it. Not only do you get yourself attacked by the monsters when you get close enough to do that, and not have enough time to plant other bombs before it goes off, but you're liable to just push them out of the blast radius in the attempt and then what's the point? You'd be better off just freezing them if all you wanted was to get a single sword attack in (and freeze probably gives you more time to set up bombs, too)

I recommend Graviton and then either GUNS or VIALS. The very tight proximity that graviton squishes them into means that a single vial can affect more monsters than it ever could on its own (and I've managed to kill entire groups of monsters with a single shock vial because of this) while Guns are a great compliment to it because you get to stand out of counter-attack range while the monsters are also unable to chase after you. In particular, my favorite guns to use with it are from the Autogun family. You can get in a double shot against the monsters before they are blasted free so you don't usually have to worry about getting attacked while reloading, and due to their swirling around, usually gets spread out amongst a few of them, and if you use a Pepperbox then you might set two or three of them on fire.

About the only sword I would bother even trying to use on Graviton'd monsters might be something from the Fireburst Brandish series if you had a good CTR on it. Maybe. If you could manage to send an explosion into the group of monsters and put strong fire on half a dozen of them at once, that might make the combo worth doing.

Oh, and for those of you having difficulty snaring the monsters up in the gravity well in the first place; I try and set the bomb right when something is about to attack me, so that it jumps straight into the vortex. THen I simply stand on the opposite side of it from the remaining monsters and they all wander right in there. Might be more difficult if the monsters are all paying more attention to other people than to you, of course.

Fri, 06/10/2011 - 02:12

#38

BiggestLoser

Legacy Username

Nitronome

Summary: Nitronome isn't good against jellys anymore.

I used the Nitronome very often, it was my first bomb. Most of the times i heard complaints from people, who can't see anything because of my bomb. The only good situation was, when jellys spawned. However, now the jellys have spikes and the explosions get neutralized(for whatever reason???!!), when i get hit, which is pretty common at spiky jellys.

Sat, 06/11/2011 - 18:29

#39

actinium

Legacy Username

@crashfu you could clear that

@crashfu you could clear that same challenge room with any blast bomb faster and just as safely, such an anecdotal argument could work for a proto-gun just as well as a graviton.
I disagree that guns or vials make the graviton as good as it could/should be, no gun but the iron slug which is the worst 5* weapon in the game has real splash and alchemer bounces can't penetrate the monster cluster they mostly just bounce right back away so there's no difference to shooting a grav'd monster or just shooting any monster right away. Autoguns don't actually splash they just spray shots and while you can make every shot land if you get close enough the damage spread out between many monsters like that is still sub standard to just doing blast bomb spam or swords and the movement delay can make you bait for anything throwing out a surprise range attack (gremlin axe throw, new jelly spikes) that you can't see charging because the attack aura animation is hidden in the middle of the monster cluster. Also dodge and burrow movements triggered by ranged attacks get monsters out of the vortex before it goes off anyway. As for vials (or pepperbox fire) that is a cool trick but you used a weapon slot and a vial to apply a status ailment you could have just applied with another bomb, barring sleep and curse perhaps but i don't think reliably using 2 kinds of vials better is a good use for a weapon slot.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 21:50

#40

Pawn

@graviton

Enemies in a graviton should not be able to attack. It would still be an underpowered bomb even if this was the case. Anyhow, they are in a vortex, spinning in a circle (sorta) they shouldn't be able to attack. And even if they can, it should come out in a RANDOM direction.

Graviton is okay, but not good. I mean, if it was a free weapon and didn't take up a slot, then sure. Anyhow, i love my graviton just cause i like being different, but it really isn't very good.

Sun, 06/12/2011 - 21:53

#41

Pawn

All bombs

@Biggest loser: "However, now the jellys have spikes and the explosions get neutralized(for whatever reason???!!), when i get hit, which is pretty common at spiky jellys."

I have noticed this too. It started recently too, it didn't used to do that. But sure as hell, now all the time i set down bombs and then they just...never go off. Just another slight against us...at this rate we'll be gunslingers soon :(

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 04:02

#42

Kaybol

Legacy Username

>> ... explosions get

>> ... explosions get neutralized (...) when i get hit ...

> I have noticed this too. It started recently too, it didn't used to do that.

Oh, it's worked like this for at least since the release. I've bug reported it a long time ago already, if you get hit while setting a bomb down, your charge timer gets set back but you still see the animation of the bomb fuse. And then it duds.

The new jellies are just another reason for me to switch from bombs to swords. If I'm gonna get hit anyway, I better be able to hit them back. I really want bombs without the charge time...

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 08:44

#43

Eeks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmQxMvxDlIo#t=18s

Here is a video of a bomb dud. It's kind of ridiculous that jelly cubes can't have their spike attack canceled. In fact, they can still continue their spike attack AFTER you kill them (and even if you push them away their spikes will come up in the same spot) but if anything touches you while you're doing your bomb drop animation, your attack becomes a dud. LMAO

Mon, 06/13/2011 - 09:11

#44

Eeks

Dark Briar Barrage Summary:

Dark Briar Barrage
Summary: Long fuse is unnecessary. Not the best weapon for what it is made for.

This kind of falls into the venom veiler category. When you think of a piercing bomb the first thing that comes to mind is probably a devilite, greaver, wolver destroyer. The flourish series murders fiends and wolvers compared to other swords so it only makes sense that the DBB is the best tool to take down fiends and wolvers, right? Not so fast.

Fuse Comparison (Nitronome vs DBB)
The fuse on the DBB is almost a full second longer than the Nitronome. BAB and Irontech have longer fuses but they also have more knockback. This seems like a balance decision to make setting up a BAB/Irontech chain more difficult than nitronome. Keep in mind that as long as the charge time is the same, once you start a chain the bombs will be exploding at the same interval. Because the DBB has no knockback and is purely a damage bomb and not a crowd control bomb like the Nitronome, it has to be used differently.

The lack of DBB knockback means that dropping a DBB usually leaves you vulnerable to attack. As a result, DBB usage involves more shield canceling and shielding in general. Because of this, the fuse time arbitrarily punishes effective use of the DBB as it "resets" the chain. For a bomb that purely deals damage, it seems strange to limit its maximum DPS. Most fiends have vicious attacks and charging the bomb already leaves you very vulnerable but to have to wait almost a full second to deliver your payload seems overly punishing considering a sword's charge allows you to deal DPS immediately.

The longer fuse also makes it difficult to time out attack cancels on enemies, which again leaves you very vulnerable.

Greaver Clears w/ Rigadoon, Nitronome, DBB - Back to the topic of not the right bomb for the job despite the giving off the impression that it should be, the main problems with the DBB as far as I've seen is that the nitronome's faster fuse and knockback makes it better for almost everything that the DBB is strong against. YES, you can kill greavers with the DBB (see above video) but it requires you being an absolute ninja. The nitronome's faster fuse means you have to shield less and allows you to better time an attack cancel and on top of that the knockback buys you another half second to drop a 2nd bomb and repeat.l YES you can kill devilites with the DBB but it also requires too much finesse for a bomb that specializes in pierce damage. Again, the slow fuse on the DBB means attack canceling is a lot trickier and it leaves you open to too many ranged attacks.

With greavers, having a faster fuse would allow you to attack cancel better and give you a better chance at surviving. With devilites, having a faster fuse would allow you to attack cancel more reliably and let you play the more defensive style that suits the DBB while not being punished for canceling your bomb chain.

I'm not sure if a faster fuse will make the DBB the best bomb for fiends but it'd definitely make it better than it is now IMO.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 03:24

#45

Pawn

@ eeks

I agree very much with your assessment of the DBB.

I will say the following points make me absolutely love the DBB:
1. I've found with 2 bombers a DBB+nitro worked much more effectively than Nitro+Nitro. The damage stacks, instead of chains because DBB doesn't know mobs out of nitro.
2. DBB has the odd benefit of absolutely obliterating gremlins t1-3. Go figure. I've cleared many t3 danger rooms with only the DBB.
3. The absence of knockback but solid damage vs most mobs makes the bomb function very much like a 70% (or so) strength Nitro w/out knockback. While this perhaps sounds bad, it adds dps nicely with sword usuers (kinda similar to point #1). It's still difficult to see through, but your teammates know where the mobs are, and where they will be.
4. No knockback means it can be used in arenas without worry of slinging mobs around to attack your teammates.
5. It has a very high amount of knockdown, which can sometimes be better than knockback.
6. Very good vs Kats.

Now that i've said all that, i now want to point at that not a single line there addressed your concerns (with the exception of 5 situationally being effective for bomb chaining).

In fact, i think FAR AND AWAY it's biggest strength is that it just manhandles gremlin packs so well...this is kinda a problem. Why is the DBB more effective and useful versus gremlins/kats than it is vs beasts/devilties/greavers? And have you noticed a silkwing can take about 4-6 shots from it? Lol, suboptimal vs beast/fiend but better vs gremlins than shadow bomb...*facepalm*

I think another easy solution would be to simply make it hit harder on mobs weak to pierce.

Long story short--IMO an absolutely fantastic bomb, but for none of the reasons it's supposed to, only for reasons that largely (i assume) are not working as intended. It's silly that i would pick an undead/gremlin UV over a fiend/best UV on it 10 times out of 10.

Tue, 06/14/2011 - 07:04

#46

Eeks

@jeburk: Just to clarify some

@jeburk:
Just to clarify some points, from my testing the DBB does the same damage that the nitronome does to neutral targets so giving it an additional dmg bonus may or may not be the best idea (I'll never oppose a damage increase on any bomb though!!) I think you bring up some good points though. If we're going to compare the DBB to the Nitronome (which seems like the most natural comparison to me):

DBB is better at killing:

Gremlins - No knockback makes it a lot safer to deploy. (especially since it is easy to hit gremlins in the back w/ the nitronome and send them flying towards you in T3) Same damage unless you have a UV nitronome.
Kat Ghosts - This is personal preference but DBB does the same damage as nitronome but the lack of knockback means that kat ghost groups are likely to stay clumped together making avoiding their attacks easier and more intuitive.
Silk Wing - No knockback makes it easier to snipe these out of a group.
Alpha Wolver - No knockback + pierce dmg makes this an easier bomb to use. This is basically the opposite of how DBB/Nitronome vs Greaver. You have to be a ninja to kill Alpha Wolvers w/ Nitronome and you have to be a Ninja to kill Greavers w/ DBB.

DBB is worse at killing:

Constructs, Slimes - Strong to pierce damage
Greavers - No knockback doesn't buy you any time to set a 3rd bomb (not 2nd because you can put two down before the first explodes by quite a bit) leaves you way too vulnerable to attack. Long fuse makes attack cancel difficult.
Slags - Personal preference but it does the same damage but no extra knockback protection.
Trojans - This is very slight but since the DBB's fuse is longer it leaves you more vulnerable for frontal attack while you wait for the bomb to explode.

Little improvement:

Wolvers - DBB is slightly better due to pierce damage but wolvers are easy to kill with both weapons so it is kind of a wash. NOTE: The DBB is actually worse than the nitronome against T3 wolvers in scenarios where there are multiple mob types due to the long fuse time. If you have to move to avoid other attacks the wolvers are constantly warping to you and will often warp out of the blast radius before the bomb can explode.
Devillites - I kind of want to put this in a completely neutral section but after extensive use with both nitro and DBB, the DBB is clearly the better bomb because of the pierce damage (at least in Stratum 5 where I've done most of my testing)... IF you manage to get a chain started. Again, the long fuse really hurts this bomb against devilites. If you drop and shield you have to wait almost a full second before it explodes so attack canceling them is TOUGH. The knockback on nitronome buys you a little extra time too. The lack of knockback on devilites is actually perfect in this scenario but the fuse hurts when setting up.

Half the things the DBB is good at is only due to the fact that it is a no knockback bomb and it behaves exactly as you'd expect a no knockback bomb to behave. (I.e. better for team play since it is less disruptive) The fuse and lack of knockback is brutal against devilites and greavers though. I think the combination of the two is what hurts the most since not only is it hard to time an attack cancel out, but you're left doubly vulnerable since you can't attack cancel AND there is no knockback which would buy you additional time.

Another possible suggestion is maybe a chance at minor stun (it is the ghost of snarby after all and what better way to haunt than to bring along the beast bell that killed you! heh) to buy you a little more time but I'm not sure how OP this would be. Honestly, I think a fuse adjustment is all it needs (or at least I'd like to see what a fuse adjustment would be like before I make additional assessments)

edit: I forgot to mention that I have been using the DBB almost exclusively with mad bomber so the balance discussion is using max CTR. I didn't really like it before it hit level 10 but that could be a combination of CTR and damage so who knows.

Sat, 06/18/2011 - 23:34

#47

SlyJohnny

Legacy Username

Freezing

Freezing Vaporiser/Atomizer/Shivermist Buster

Summary: This bomb is overpowered and doesn't need skill to aim.

The ice haze it leaves behind means you can paralyse large numbers of mobs even if you miss, as they'll still blunder in and get frozen very, very quickly. You don't get damage, but your second bomb planted behind them will certainly get them for elemental damage. It's awesome, but it kicks the ass of the poor Venom Veiler, and most bombers prefer it to Ash of Agni, too. The time the ice haze lingers for should be reduced.

Sun, 06/19/2011 - 16:28

#48

Patito

respectfully disagree

@ slyjohnny

I agree that the shivermist is very powerful. Over powered? I'm not so sure. When you are solo, weapon dancing between the shivermist and another damage dealing weapon takes both time and (depending on the mob, sometimes a lot of) skill. I agree if you are facing down one mob it can be amusing to continuously place a SMB behind him. It becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly though that there are far more efficient ways to kill a mob.

Now, if you were going to make a case for the SMB being OP, I think you'd probably start with a discussion of group play. There is a reason groups are so grateful when a skilled SMB player joins the party. But the fact is that this means the bomber is sacrificing damage for team work... and in a game where party play ends up being a lot of folks scrambling to hit the mob faster than the other guy... well, it's really refreshing to actually support your group.

In short, when I think of 'OP' I think of something that trivializes play to the exclusion of everything else. The shivermist buster actually enhances and encourages interesting combat interaction... in fact it requires another player or another type of weapon to be effective.

I totally agree the VV is under powered, though.

Tue, 06/21/2011 - 07:13

#49

Waluigix

Legacy Username

venom veiler

i'm a tri sword user running acheron dark thorn blade and divine avenger, but one of my teammates decided to bring a toxic atomizer along for a run. and it does do a defense debuff when they are poisoned idk if it does a damage debuff as well but i was finding that i was hitting harder when they were poisoned.on the first jelly king floor when there are two lumbers towards the end at about depth 15 i'd hit 167 on my first swing and on the one that was poisoned i'd hit 188 on my first swing. now i know thats only 21 damage difference but sometimes thats enough to kill them before they can kill a teammate. i do plan on running a venom veiler on my pure bomber though(will it be my first bomb? no but i do plan on using it end-game)

Sat, 07/02/2011 - 01:20

#50

Pupu

Legacy Username

Big Angry Bomb.

Summary: Useless for DPS compared to Nitronome

I made this bomb expecting to be the most damaging and hard to use of the bombs, which would balance it's problems with lots of damage. Turns out it's quite the opposite, the bomb is slow to set, slow to blow up, has a small radius, deals about x1.5 of Nitro's damage, but pushes enemies so far away that dealing damage to them consistently with this bomb is impossible. Nitronome is better in every possible way. I have made Briar Barrage my dps bomb, given how BAB fails to fill this role.

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Bomb balance issues