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Black Kat Farming May 2014: BK & Spookat appearance rates, and Book of Dark Ritual drop rate 😸 Cheshireccat's Classes

14 Antworten [Letzter Beitrag]
Mi, 05/14/2014 - 11:45
#6251
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Bopp
very nice

A detailed, objective study is just what we've needed. Your methodology seems solid. You report your number of data and the resulting confidence interval. Your study provides dependable information that will really help players.

One question: How many books did you find in this study? I don't see where you've said.

Mi, 05/14/2014 - 12:19
#6252
Kyvriz
Some plots of binomial

Some plots of binomial distribution using the best estimate of the parameter (book drop chance) and varying BK encounters may be more helpful. We need to understand that we are part of the distribution, so weird things do happen (getting book drop on first BK encounter, not getting a book after few hundred BK encounter.)

Example: Using book drop chance = 1% and no. of black kat encounter (n=298)

http://keisan.casio.com/keisan/lib/virtual/tmp/5483484773.png

x Binomial distribution
0 0.05003662287
1 0.1506153
2 0.22592293
3 0.2251623
4 0.1677345
5 0.0996241
6 0.0491412
7 0.02070596
8 0.007607871
9 0.002476187
10 7.228465E-4
11 1.9116602E-4
12 4.6182363E-5

1st column: no. of book obtained after killing 298 BKs
2nd column: the corresponding probability.

Why pick n=298? Because P(298,n>=1) ~= 0.95. We are 95% you will get at least one book after killing 298 black kats.

Take away message: Statistics are incredibly useful to understand any large scale phenomena, but you are only one of the data point making up the distribution. stop complaining when things dont work in your favor, because by principle there has to be those really unlucky and lucky ones such that the distribution holds.

Mi, 05/14/2014 - 13:15
#6253
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Cheshireccat
@Bopp & Kyvriz

@Bopp
Apologies, I did note the book rate in the spreadsheet but not in the OP. Two Books were found from the 199 drop chances on which I based my calculations.
Thanks for the compliments!

@Kyvriz
If I could get (or once I have) a few hundred more data points I think a plot like that would be a great idea. With BKs being as rare as they are, if we assume a 1% Book Drop Rate I think I would need over 3000 BKs to narrow the error to 0.5%... which would be a *huge* margin considering a probability of 1%.
Even getting 500 or so data points would be helpful but I farmed like mad just to get the 199... feel like helping out next time? ;)
I agree with your take away. Even with all the data in the world these are only projected outcomes over a population. There will always be the outliers who get a Book on their first, or no Book at all after 400 (sorry Glacies!).

@Everyone
For a clear formula & explanation for calculating the odds of "if the probability is 1% and I repeat this X times..." I direct your attention to Bopp's post here: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/87756#comment-910385
Still, it must be mentioned that this applies to whole populations and not just you. You could be one of those outliers we keep hearing about. ;)

--Cheshireccat

Mi, 05/14/2014 - 14:02
#6254
Kyvriz
additional info and fun

Using the best estimate of book drop chance, you can also get to simulate the process and obtain (basically) the same distribution as given in my earlier post:

Put this in R and you will see the same distribution, which comes purely from computer simulation of the book drop process:

n_length = 10000 #sample size = 10000
n_trial = 298 #for each sample, try killing BK 298 times.
v_1 <- vector(length=n_length)

for (i in 1:n_length)
{
for (j in 1:n_trial)
{
if (runif(1) <= 0.01) #generating a random number on [0,1]. A book is found when the number is less than or equals to 0.01
v_1[i] = v_1[i] + 1
}
}

hist(v_1, freq=F, breaks=40)

The distribution on n (no. of BK encounter) for first success (getting a book) to occur is given by geometric distribution / exponential distribution(continuous version of geometric distribution):

Do this in R to simulate the process and get the distribution:
n_length = 10000
v_1 <- vector(length=n_length)

for (i in 1:n_length)
{
n_success = 0
n_tilsuccess = 0
while (n_success == 0)
{
n_tilsuccess = n_tilsuccess + 1
if (runif(1) <= 0.01)
n_success = 1
}
v_1[i] <- n_tilsuccess
}

hist(v_1, freq=F, xlim=c(0,298))

message: statistics are real.

Mi, 05/14/2014 - 15:56
#6255
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Ultimaximus
Expand upon this?

"When a Black Kat was found some members of each party would use the "go solo" trick for an extra token drop and Book chance."

Can you explain this? I thought that going solo on a rare mob would prevent them from dropping anything. Do the Black Kats function differently? I'm surprised that this works, especially given that players could no longer invite others to a spawned Black Kat and receive drops.

Mi, 05/14/2014 - 16:41
#6256
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Quartic-Forums
@Ultimaximus

Here.

Do, 09/18/2014 - 13:27
#6257
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Cheshireccat
I'm just gonna leave this here...

Bumping this back up because many will find it useful.

Also, you should really click on both of these links and +1 the threads.

--Cheshireccat

Do, 09/18/2014 - 19:47
#6258
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Skepticraven
↓

I hear you like pudding, Cheshireccat.

Sa, 09/20/2014 - 12:27
#6259
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Fehzor

In another thread you mentioned-

1. You must kill 1000 BKs to get (on average) one book.

This contradicts what you've said here-

the average Book drop rate is between 0.30% and 1.71%

What gives?

So, 09/21/2014 - 16:14
#6260
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Shidara
I wonder if the difficulty

I wonder if the difficulty level (i.e. Normal / Advanced / Elite) has any bearing on the drop ratio. It would be nice to have data on this as well, or something to confirm or disprove its bearing or lack thereof.

So, 09/21/2014 - 16:58
#6261
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Retrofit
@Shidara

During the last event, it was speculated that Elite difficulty would increase one's odds of finding a book, since running on Elite generally improves loot payouts.

However, Spiral-Spy has mentioned in his most recent blog post that: "Mission difficulty and party size does not have an effect on the chance for encounters [with black kats] or the droprates [of books]."

That said, we don't know how exactly Spiral-Spy gets some of his information, or how reliable it is, so we kind of just have to take him at his word.

Mo, 09/22/2014 - 08:11
#6262
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Cheshireccat
@Fehzor

Heh. Sorry. There was an error on my cocktail napkin math.
Corrected it in the other thread.

Di, 09/23/2014 - 03:50
#6263
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Thelerinator
Going solo strategy

So I just read up on the going solo strategy, but that thread hasn't been edited since last Kataclysm in May, so does anyone know if it still works, I wouldn't mind the increased chance of getting a book?

Also, anyone have reliable sources confirming if difficulty changes chances?

Di, 09/23/2014 - 13:35
#6264
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Flawedknight
:(

"Note: This does not mean that you cannot get a Book outside of this range. I know players who have not received a Book with 400 chances, and someone who received a Book on his second chance. My data is for the average Book drop rate."

This may be me :(

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