Spiral Knights - Normal weapons general buff. Also, A change to the DR.

Normal weapons general buff. Also, A change to the DR.

23 replies [Last post]

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 04:32

Psychodestroyer

Seriously, I dragged out my Levi for the first time in Vog years, and it was apparent how underpowered it was.

Seriously, an awesome weapon it totally is. Regardless of it's power rating, it's still my favorite weapon in the whole of SK. Looks cool, is effective enough, and more tactical than my other spamcan Brandishes.

But it's lacking in raw power overall. Mechanics-wise, I totally prefer the Levi. High knockback, 360 range, and the classic three-hit combo. But even with a Neutral enemy, the Brandish line still surpasses it in terms of damage output.

Which is sad really, because most of the Normal damage weapons are awesome, but are frankly outclassed by their specialized counterparts.

Enough of my pining. I propose that all Normal-only weapons get a marginal damage buff. Plain and simple. It should be high enough to contend with the Brandish series on Neutral at least, while falling short enough to be behind specialized output so that it doesn't become more powerful than it should.

Because really, normal damage weapons are great weapons. Awesome mechanics and animations/design. But the fact that they're underpowered so badly is just sad, frankly.

My Levi's still awesome though. No amount of underpoweredness can take that away ;n;

As for the DR; I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that it's fairly OP. Spam it everywhere, and pwn.

Keeping in mind the purpose of the DR series, as specified by it's description, I propose the DR's damage output be lowered slightly, while slapping on a damage bonus medium against Gremlins.

Because really, it's an Anti-Gremlin bomb. No need for it to be overpowered against Slimes too; just Gremlins.

Thoughts?

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 04:52

Rabeet-Ahsan

I totally agree with the damage buff on all normal weapons.Lets all bring the normal damage weapons up.And the damage a Levi does to stationary so its pretty useful.
And the DR should have a dmg bonus vs gremlins as the description says "for use against gremlins".

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 05:25

Zaffy-Laffy

Zaffy is Laffy

/yes psychodestroyer

At least balanced it to approximately the same damage as a brandish. Just because a brandish has a split ele/normal damage, does not make it any more powerful when compared to a neutral damage weapon. A neutral weapon shall be truly neutral, such that it deals the same damage as any other weapons, but does not have type advantages nor disadvantages.

DR, powerful? Maybe. You can basically kill the Jelly King in 1 minute using a DR. The number of hits / area of effect is so great, adding that it's fuse length is shorter than a haze bomb, makes it (DEFINITELY MAKES IT) OP. An isolated case.

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 05:39

Verodius

I agree that Normal weapons

I agree that Normal weapons need a buff, but I think a nerf to the DR would be a little unwarranted given how it's the only decent Bomb we have (i.e. that can come close to the Blitz & Brandish leagues of damage)

It's already bad enough that the only decent bomb does Shadow Damage (i.e. the most useless damage), change it like you suggested and it'll essentially be Hunting Blade/Cautery Sword in bomb form.

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 20:49

Hexzyle

I propose... (these will stack)

A 10% damage buff to all normal damage weapons.

8% damage nerf to the entire autogun line's charge attack only

5% damage buff to any normal damage weapon with a specific family damage bonus

Mon, 01/07/2013 - 22:46

Nineball-Seraph

Where's the "shove this in OOO's face" button?

I absolutely LOVE my Winmillion, it's the sexiest sword I've ever owned! But the damage output is depressing. And I have all KINDS of UVs and boosts to make it better, spent 65K on getting an ASI med UV on it. But even when fully heated, it's so completely outclassed by any other weapon I have that it's just saddening. Using a sexy sword shouldn't make me sad. It should make me happy.

As a test, I took it to Blackstone Bridge, alongside my Silent nightblade, both of which were fully heated with a med damage bonus cause of my barbarous shield.

Winmillion did 118 from the actual slash, and 65 with the little energy bolt. 161 on the final slash.
That adds up to 183+183+226=592, counting both the slash and energy bolt.

Nightblade did 216 a slash to the neutral wheel-spewing turrets in FSC. And 309 on the final hit.
That's 216+216+309=741

That's a damage difference of 149 between two weapons of the same star level, or about a 25% more damage from the nightblade, relative to winmillion.

Now, vs a slag, the nightblade does 139, and 191.
139+139+191=469

Nightblade's doing 123 damage less here, or about 20% less damage, relative to winmillion.

Now, it's obviously lower when ineffective, but the difference in between the neutral damages is greater than the difference between the ineffective and neutral damages. In other words, as everyone in the forums has learned, carrying two specialized weapons will net you more neutral damage than a normal weapon, 25% more in the brandish/spur case. And suppose you brought your mix of brandish to an area where they were particularly good? You'd be doing LOADS more.

I don't have a Levi to do similar tests with, but I'd imagine it to be a very similar scenario. Spur lines obivously have lower damage numbers, due to being faster swords, but the speed difference doesn't feel noticeable enough to warrant the damage difference.

And did I ever mention that Brandishes have STATUSES, JUST IN CASE THEY WEREN'T OP ENOUGH? Stop and think. The damage difference between them is.. passable, if going on the damage alone. But throw statuses into the mix, along with the sheer usefulness of the charge attacks, and you really couldn't find a feasable reason to use a Spur over a Brandish.

Except that spurs are sexy swords and FEEL good to use.
I propose a higher buff than 10%, if all the normal weapons follow this pattern. More like 16 or 18.

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 01:13

Rage-Pillows

Winmillion needs a lift

I wholeheartedly agree with Nineball-Seraph. The Winmillion stops at a four star alchemy path and its damage output is sincerely weaker than the other weapons in comparison. I felt very letdown at its evolved state. I can't recommend using it in any situation, aside from showing off.

My second sword is the Sealed Sword. This was when I realized how ridiculous its power is. The three star weapon is outshining my four star weapon and it's not even level 10. Then I go crafting into an Avenger and saw something in the training hall. My Winmillion's charged attack is more vulnerable and weaker than my Avenger's single attack.

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 14:07

Grittle

8% damage nerf to the entire

8% damage nerf to the entire autogun line's charge attack only

AHEM, you mean Blitz only and not the Toxic blitz and Pepperbox too, do you?

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 14:32

Pawsmack

@OP/Psychodestroyer

+1 to buffing normal damage type weapons.

But on the other hand... Dark Retribution already got nerfed. :/ Not to mention the fact that Dark Retribution gets ANOTHER nerf when being used in Tier 2 or Tier 1. ._. There aren't many Gremlins or Slimes in Tier 3 unless you're in the Arcade or 8-2 missions/7-1 missions.

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 14:52

Psychodestroyer

DR got nerfed because it's OP. DR is still somewhat OP, but this change fits it's description more and makes it more 'appropriate'.

Also there's a 1* and 3* version of it. Or was it 2* and 3*? I forget. It'll be OP enough in lower tiers anyway, considering most 5* gear is.

W/e the case, the DR is still a bit stronger than I think it should be. I took down a Trojan with it. Granted, it was the only thing left on the field and I was circling it for about a minute, spamming these bombs in a triangle pattern to exploit it's weak point.

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 17:05

#10

Waffleconecake

I agree +1

I too feel normal weapons are weak, hell, I at times often argue with my self before starting a level whether or not to use my dark thorn blade or ascended caliber because the dark is so much stronger in most moments.

Tue, 01/08/2013 - 19:37

#11

Kimahsonite

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/70050

I already made a thread to suggest a 20% damage buff to normal weapons but it got shot down at (probably because I'm not a frequent forum-goer). Although a 15% damage buff would do as well. I also support the Dark Retribution losing a bit of damage so that it gains a damage boost against gremlins. I've seen it in action in RJP and it's extremely overpowered, even after they nerfed it two days after it got released. And it's meant to be an anti-gremlin bomb anyway.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 04:44

#12

Hexzyle

@Grittle

AHEM, you mean Blitz only and not the Toxic blitz and Pepperbox too, do you?

Nope. I meant an 8% nerf to the charge attack of all three lines. They're all ridiculously powerful, even if poison is a little underpowered. Maybe increase poison's defense debuff by 40-60%.
And I said the nerf would stack with the 10% normal damage buff of the Pepperbox, so the total would be:

No change on Blitz's and Plague's normal attack
10% buff to Pepperbox's normal attack
2% buff to Pepperbox's charge attack
8% nerf to Blitz's and Plague's charge attack

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:32

#13

Luguiru

Bonk.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 14:38

#14

Chaosengineer

Honestly, trying to damage

Honestly, trying to damage gremlins with a DR is really infuriating. Knockers' shields make them ridiculously difficult to hit, menders, knockers and scorchers move around too much and too randomly to do very effective damage against them, demos drop ridiculous lagbombs everywhere when you damage them repeatedly...

DR just has sort of a terrible mechanic for killing gremlins, and i think it'd be better if it were balanced for its function against enemies you can actually hit with it. (Slime, construct, and undead, i would think.)

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:06

#15

Psychodestroyer

Thwackers are simple. Treat them like the others. Don't walk in circles around them. Plant it at their feet, walk off, plant another ask you go. The key is to kite them all into your blasts, and stay out of the way.

Thwackers are stupid enough to follow you. Demo's just need bombspam, considering it's hard to get close. Scorchers are slow and stay still a lot, so a round spam pattern works too. Menders you can corner fairly easily, considering they stay still a lot while in action, and run away excessively when not. Drag them to a corner and spam away.

Knockers are just simple. No excess defense, so just spam for coverage and wait for them to drop.

Key point: Don't worry about how much damage you're doing to them. With all their turning and w/e, they leave themselves exposed a lot. If nothing else, get the to follow you and leave DRs in your wake. The sheer spamability of the bomb makes up for it's low-hit rate, where it occurs. They'll all die soon enough.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:24

#16

Chaosengineer

But, why should i do that,

But, why should i do that, when i have a DBB which seems to do the job so much better?

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:39

#17

Zeddy

@Chaosengineer

I used to think this too, but with a little practice it's actually a very powerful weapon against gremlins.

-For thwackers, you need to bait them so they end up at the edges of the DR and face inwards, where you'll be standing. This is fairly easy to do by baiting their attacks. Remember that DR's orbs have their attack come from the center, not the side they're swirling.

-Most other gremlins don't have shields. Just spam DR and run around between them. They'll die.

-Menders need to be chased into the DR like chickens. Once their shields are up, they'll die instantly from you stacking DRs to break it.

-It's the best damage bomb against mortafires. Spread it around them kind of like you would with a haze bomb and they'll die fairly easily. I can't kill mortas as well with guns or swords.

It takes a bit of practice, but a DR is pretty much the best weapon you could bring for most of OCH.

Edit:
In lower floors, such as stratum 6 and danger rooms, the DBB will no longer knock gremlins over. This leaves DBB with exactly the same shieldy and herdy problems DR has, but with lower damage. DR is able to kill gremlins quite fast with correct use. Menders are only very dodgy if they have nothing to heal, in which case it's not crucial to kill them in the first place.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:36

#18

Psychodestroyer

Idk. Because DBB is a single-fire piercing bomb whereas DR is a multi-hit Shadow bomb. The latter being more useful in terms of type because Gremlins are usually accompanied by constructs, and because multi-hitting means that you can kite a whole crown into a blast and not rely on just the immediate blast range.

Everyone has their preference, I'm just saying why the DR isn't useless. Single-fire misses, it misses. DR misses on the initial blast, there's still a load more strikes that could hit.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:42

#19

Arkate

There's a reason why normal weps already got a buff...

They used to be seriously underpowered, but in a couple month old update, they buffed all normal damage weps. The reason why normal dmg weapons aren't as high damage as the specialized ones is BECAUSE they aren't specialized. If I used my silent nightblade on some shadow-type enemies, they won't do as much damage as a master cobalt, but they will do more damage to jellys. Also, the other way that normal dmg weapons get a balance is because they all have a really good knockback, and the Levi is one of the few 3 hit 5 star swords in the game. I don't see a reason for a damage buff.

Wed, 01/09/2013 - 15:50

#20

Psychodestroyer

"The reason why normal dmg weapons aren't as high damage as the specialized ones is BECAUSE they aren't specialized."

I'll refrain from being aggressive, but that was not my point. A Nightblade-line sword, last I recall, does more damage to a NEUTRAL enemy than the Calibur line does with a weapon of the same grade.

OBVIOUSLY Specialized damage will do more. I'm not stupid. But Normal damage, at least in the Levi's case, is TOO underpowered. Brandishes and Caliburs can be compared because they have more or less the same mechanics. In terms of raw output, the Brandishes come out on top. Not many people find knockback or a 360 attack very desirable, considering that can all be remedied with raw attack power.

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 11:25

#21

Myphenox

/you make me proud

/you make me proud physcodestroyer. there are many swords that have fallen behind todays SK.

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 14:50

#22

Xenonguard

Hermmm

The only problem with a universal damage boost is that they'll just be overused in Lockdown, where all damage is technically neutral (besides defense on armours). The DR buff is definitely needed, possibly along with a small actual damage reduction.

Thu, 01/10/2013 - 19:53

#23

Dragonuity

Normal damage weapons have

Normal damage weapons have been sitting unused in my inventory ever since i got all 3 kinds of specialized damage weapons. They should be able to have a critical hit chance, sort of like-
good chance of fire- but instead- good chance of critical hit
The critical hit should be a 125% attack which can be highlighted in RED damage.
Is this a good idea?

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Normal weapons general buff. Also, A change to the DR.