I don't mean the whole 4* level 10 to 5* level 1 thing. I mean like with Faust, where there's a definite case for using it over its 5* equivalent, Gran Faust. What other items in this game are like that?
What items are better with less upgrades?
Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:52
Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:38
#2
Dread Venom Striker only gives an increase in damage. If you use it for trying to poison enemies, there's absolutely no need to upgrade.
Irontech Destroyer only gives an increase in damage. Irontech Bomb already has the 5* explosion radius. (There may be a greater chance to stun, too lazy to check)
If you keep 4* weapons around, you'll likely be able to use them in crafting for some future event if you're too lazy to make a new weapon for the new event weapon. (like how I used my first 4* weapon to make my Obsidian Edge) (May want to keep a couple 3* guns ready for the new guns coming out)
Winmillion has its damage split between the bullet and slash, so if you can't aim that bullet, you're doing less damage in T2.
iono...
not many of these...
Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:39
#3
Faust also deals less curse to you; I have yet to be cursed by a faust at +10 curse resistance. Gran faust at that same level of resistance is a different story. But Faust is different. Faust level 10 is better than gran faust level 10, unless you're into lockdown perhaps.
Level 10 has higher CTR and more damage; 4* -> 5* differs per weapon. Really, you should ask yourself: Is whatever buff I would get better than some damage and charge time reduction? If the answer is yes, upgrade. If not, don't.
Tue, 06/03/2014 - 23:43
#4
Neither self-curse nor charge time will matter to people who don't use GF's charge attack, and GF easily does more damage. Just saying...
If you can afford it, I suggest getting both.
Wed, 06/04/2014 - 00:47
#5
Yes, but acheron is generally a bit better than gran faust in terms of damage and pretty much everything else. The big argument for gran faust is that it has knock back, and down. Faust also has these things, but with the added benefit of a usable charge attack that deals the weakest status, curse.
Wed, 06/04/2014 - 03:59
#6
@Fehzor
Curse the weakest status? #sleep4life
Wed, 06/04/2014 - 06:36
#7
Curse wrecks a handful of enemies, but doesn't do much besides that. Normal enemies that don't spam shots or heals all over the place are very slowly effected and are generally better dealt with using other attacks. This makes it good for taking care of those few spammy enemies and not much else.
A curse haze bomb would be like a weaker version of ash of agni that somehow one shots turrets and menders, but does nothing to most undead. It would tick slower than ash of agni, and would require you to let the enemy attack repeatedly putting you in harms way. Failure to jump into harms way would result in no damage, pending on the mob. I'd put it on par with venom veiler, which also crushes menders and little else.
Sleep on the other hand is an improved version of freeze. It stops them for longer and it prevents them from attacking. It heals them, but it stops them in their tracks and lets you do whatever you'd like to them. Charge attacks with no drawbacks.
For a time, people considered shivermist buster to be the greatest defensive thing. You could go in and freeze things and then set up and kill them. This worked on shadow lairs, vanaduke, you name it. The biggest complaint however, was that it created a maze of enemies that could still attack, trapping the player and hindering the team. This is the big reason that shivermist buster isn't as OP as people thought it was- that it doesn't really change anything but their ability to move and can end up hurting more than helping. If you could put enemies to sleep, then it would remove that risk almost completely, as well as give you extra time or area to effect.
Thu, 06/05/2014 - 11:04
#8
Acheron is only better because it's broken. Acheron's normal swings SHOULD deal identical damage as Leviathan Blade to neutral enemies. And definitely less damage than a heavy sword like DA.
Sat, 06/07/2014 - 15:36
#9
Exactly. It being broken is a large part of why faust is better than gran faust. Cause at least it has some kind of good use.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 00:49
#10
Faust is only better than GF if you chargespam constantly. GF does more damage, period.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 02:08
#11
No period.
GF is only more powerful if you have enough Radiants and most people don't, really.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 02:38
#12
krak wut is a radeent
If you had Radiants, it would be more worthwhile to invest it into an Acheron, unless you play a ton of LD and find it much easier to aim with the Sealed Sword line.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 03:30
#13
I'd say Sealed Swords and Brandishes are pretty different. For example, I'd bring GF instead of Acheron in C42. Why? Crowd control. Knockdown and multihitting is worth gold there and trying to charge is kinda dangerous.
That said, Acheron can manage crowds just fine if you know how to use it (protip: disable auto target). But GF has its few niche uses.
Side note, Acheron should outdo Silent Nightblade earlier than level 7/8 since it has SS-level damage, while Silent Nightblade is equal to the other 4* Brandishes in terms of damage.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 04:54
#14
@Batabii
Yes, but acheron is generally a bit better than gran faust in terms of damage and pretty much everything else. The big argument for gran faust is that it has knock back, and down. Faust also has these things, but with the added benefit of a usable charge attack that deals the weakest status, curse.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 08:20
#15
"the weakest status, curse."
That's a strange way to spell "strongest". And you literally just copypasted the same post from before.
And as far as radiants, that's not GF's fault, that's OOO. Just like acheron is currently op, many 5* weapons are crippled by inability to forge.
Sun, 06/08/2014 - 14:01
#17
@Batabii
The entire game is OOO's fault. The early crippling of 5* gear is also very real despite being OOO's fault, or even possibly temporary.
As for curse---
Curse wrecks a handful of enemies, but doesn't do much besides that. Normal enemies that don't spam shots or heals all over the place are very slowly effected and are generally better dealt with using other attacks. This makes it good for taking care of those few spammy enemies and not much else.
A curse haze bomb would be like a weaker version of ash of agni that somehow one shots turrets and menders, but does nothing to most undead. It would tick slower than ash of agni, and would require you to let the enemy attack repeatedly putting you in harms way. Failure to jump into harms way would result in no damage, pending on the mob. I'd put it on par with venom veiler, which also crushes menders and little else.
Mon, 06/09/2014 - 07:03
#18
I agree with Fehzor. Curse wrecks a handful of enemies, but doesn't do much besides that. Normal enemies that don't spam shots or heals all over the place are very slowly effected and are generally better dealt with using other attacks. This makes it good for taking care of those few spammy enemies and not much else.
A curse haze bomb would be like a weaker version of ash of agni that somehow one shots turrets and menders, but does nothing to most undead. It would tick slower than ash of agni, and would require you to let the enemy attack repeatedly putting you in harms way. Failure to jump into harms way would result in no damage, pending on the mob. I'd put it on par with venom veiler, which also crushes menders and little else.
Mon, 06/09/2014 - 07:10
#19
lol
Cautery sword, so you can choose not to waste your CR on this bad idea
Mon, 06/09/2014 - 08:58
#20
Curse deals MASSIVE damage to nearly ALL enemies except lumbers, devilites, trojans, gorgos, kats, phantoms, zombies, scarabs, and (most) bosses. If you're not attacking a Shadow-damaging monster, it's almost guaranteed to be more effective than shock or fire. There's a reason there isn't a Curse variant of the Haze bomb. It would be extremely overpowered. And many enemies attack whether you're standing still or not. Unless you're a dedicated gunner, you have to be near them to hit them anyway. In fact, curse is a fantastic way to clear out arenas and healers.
Mon, 06/09/2014 - 09:22
#21
Really? I threw a Curse Vial at a Scuttlebot once and tried to get it to kill itself. The curse wore off first.
Mon, 06/09/2014 - 11:32
#22
@Batabii
I'll go dig up Zeddy's damage numbers for you. Here is his statement about how it works, and his hard to read chart.
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/88615#comment-839955
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkB_kx1fvrxadEp4V1NyVWZ3b2R...
So lets see. On D28, gran faust should do 268 curse damage to enemies that are normal to the status. On the same depth, fire would do 89 damage per tick to similar enemies. These are both the "strong" status values.
However, fire guarantees you ticks one the enemy. How many ticks? Supposedly 5, since this is 'strong'. The entirety of fire guarantees you 5 * 89 = 445 damage. For curse to compete, it would have to tick around one and a half times perhaps? So around 2-3 enemy attacks.
Except the problem is that the game is a lot faster paced than this, and that when you're fighting 12 enemies in a room, letting all of them attack repeatedly is a wonderful way to find yourself in trouble. Basically, think of what I said above to you twice. Curse just kills the mender. That's basically what curse is. It kills menders and turrets, and doesn't do very much else. Think of a bunch of scuttlebots that are cursed. You have the option to egg them into attacking like 20 times, or to just crush them with your divine avenger charge and be done with it. That is what curse is.
Explain to me how curse isn't a relatively weak status. I've been trying to make it work, but it hasn't been going so well. A while ago, I argued that you could use curse like you're saying, and that it isn't a junky status. But then I built a loadout around inflicting curse, and was surprised to find out that it didn't work well at all. So please. Enlighten me as to what I am doing wrong.
Tue, 06/10/2014 - 10:45
#23
@batabii
DBB, DR, and Venom
@batabii
DBB, DR, and Venom veiler also clear out arenas with little trouble
Fri, 06/13/2014 - 23:55
#24
@everyone
No mention of FOV? I'm shocked. Free-ish 5* weapon with no craft cost? Just 40 tokens, or ask for a friggin vet to grind one out for 50kcr (a service I have provided).
wao
Sat, 06/14/2014 - 03:41
#25
Irontech Bomb's been mentioned before, but I'll add that Irontech Bomb has a shorter fuse time than its upgrade, Irontech Destroyer. It's not all that big a difference, but it's present.
@Curse debate
People compare Gran Faust and Acheron a lot, but I'll tell you Gran Faust's real competitor: Glacius.
Like Fehzor presented earlier, curse damage is identical to freeze damage. With that in mind, let's compare:
Gran Faust
Combo damage (D24): 311 + 404
Combos per minute: 29
DPS: 345
Charge time: Literally the slowest charge time available in the game. No other existing weapon charges this slowly.
Charge damage (D24): 611 + (1-5) * 188 (assuming some multihits.)
Status: Curse, 240 damage about 1/3-1/2 of the time an enemy attacks. To make this happen, you need to put yourself in harm's way and cannot concentrate on other enemies.
Glacius
Combo damage (D24): 270 + 270 + 356
Combos per minute: 31
DPS: 462
Charge time: The shortest charge time available in the game outside of Catalyzer.
Charge damage: 547 + (1-5) * 166 (depending on amount of freezes.)
Status: Freeze, 240 damage after 7 seconds. During these 7 seconds, you can freeze or generally deal with other enemies.
Sat, 06/14/2014 - 18:47
#26
+1 Zeddy.
Sat, 06/14/2014 - 23:53
#27
I was thinking more of just the status as a whole rather than in the case of just gran faust/faust... because faust is a perfectly usable weapon for dealing curse out. But thank you anyway. Ice as a whole is probably a much better comparison, considering that it simplifies the whole thing down to whether you can safely make a crowd of enemies attack you several times within the time ice wears off and you re-inflict it.
Hashtag curse discussion.
Tue, 06/17/2014 - 08:42
#28
Box
+1 Zeddy, you're the man.
This reminds me of the very first thread I made on these forums saying that GF was broken (But it's hard to tell what is not broken honestly)
It is good to see that about 3 years later everything is still the same... but well, guess I'll have to wiat 5-6 more years when OOO maybe (Big maybe) decides to fix dem itenz.
Hopefully the Gunner update works as a little bandaid over the balance problems. *Crosses fingers*
Sun, 06/29/2014 - 23:48
#29
Hmm
I think Faust is better than GF as faust deals pretty good dmg at lvl 8-10.For GF to equal that dmg you need to get it to lvl 5-8 which could take alot of farming for rads...But if you play LD its best to make DA other than GF as DA has more PvE uses.
I prefer Voltedge over Combuster and Glacius.Who uses Comb for Vanaduck?Its fully fire themed thus Voltedge is better!But if you dont like LD then go for glacius.
And for guns Storm Driver Blitz and Novadriver can get you through Vanaduck!
Mon, 06/30/2014 - 03:01
#30
"Who uses Comb for Vanaduck?Its fully fire themed thus Voltedge is better!But if you dont like LD then go for glacius."
People use Combuster in Vanaduke because, of the three elemental Brandishes, Combuster has the most damage and the best crowd control.
Combuster easily beats Voltedge in Vanaduke, however there are times when you can set up things for Voltedge to do massive amounts of damage, making it easily the strongest elemental sword in the game. But without anything being set up Combuster is just straight-up better.
Glacius is just kinda there to be there. Powerful, but there's really no need to get it other than completion purposes as long as the other two Brandishes are the way they are.
Also, I'm saying this as a pure Voltedge user. #shock4life
Mon, 06/30/2014 - 07:29
#31
Combuster is over rated. I mean, sure, it makes them "ride the wave", but that only works if there is like one or two of them. Glacius is safer to use, and can do more damage safely to a few enemies if they get caught in it, and voltedge is much better for crowd control due to the shock. The only reason to use combuster in fire levels is if you need it to deal high single target damage to weak mobs.
Mon, 06/30/2014 - 16:58
#32
Glacius is safer to use
That's situational. Do you want people to randomly be spamming Glacius charges while you're fighting Slags?
Voltedge is much better for crowd control due to the shock
Combuster is better for small clusters of enemies, while Voltedge is better for larger groups. But if I have larger groups I use Sudaruska anyhow.
There are very few cases but here's the list from my understanding:
Swords:
*Sealed Sword has a chance of a random status aside from Sleep and Curse.
*Faust has a much higher charge time than Gran Faust, easily making it better than the upgrade.
Handguns:
*Antigua: Currently the only Handgun with Piercing attached that is able to freely move around while shooting. Some people prefer this over the much more overpowered choice of the Autogun line.
Bombs:
*Firecracker, Cold Snap, and Static Flash are the only Bombs with an insanely low fuse time and the ability to inflict Moderate Status. The only other bombs that inflict Moderate Status are the Shocking Salt Bomb and Scintillating Sun Shards; which both have somewhat longer fuse-times and invincitinks.