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Guardian Playstlye Guide and suggestions

12 replies [Last post]
Tue, 07/15/2014 - 09:15
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare

Let’s face it Guardians are the least played "class" in the game. Why is that?

Lack of item choices is one reason. In fact Izola is the Class vendor with the fewest recipes.

Lack of damage may be another.

Of course the largest factor is that new knights have few examples.

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I have decided to make a post about general guardian strategy and how you as the other "classes" can support your supporter.

Guardians are slow tanky players, they can hold down chokepoints, corner monsters easy and if need be unleash fairly powerful attacks.

As a guardian your task is to keep your allies safe, draw the agro of enemies by placing a magnus shot or a troika charge into their ranks get them to chase you, your teammates can use this time to prepare charge attacks or sneak by enemies. Gunners can help with this tactic and the guardian can support by creating distance with heavy sword swings.

If you can try to get the enemies to crowd around the entrance to a room while you hold them back with your sword and shield, this will allow your team to prep safely. Bombers can be great here by placing Shock/Fire/Poison haze bombs or Blast type bombs and Dark retribution to capitalize on the amassed enemies.

Guardians can quickly throw enemies into corners and hold them there, in this situation a good sword charge can prove devastating.

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Final choices for guardian defense are:

Volcanic set with excellent elemental and fire/stun resist makes for a decent FSC armor if you can get past the med attack speed decrease. Suggested UVs are Fire Normal and Elemental resist. (Shock resist makes this set more viable for Red Roarmulus)

Ironmight set with excellent Pierce and stun resist makes for a good RJP armor if you can get past the med attack speed decrease.
Suggested UVs are Normal and Elemental resist. (Any UV that resists your least favorite status does well)

Ancient Plate set provides massive normal damage resist with stun plus a nice helping of HP, this makes for a decent armor for low to mid tier tanking, provided you can handle the movement and attack speed decrease.
Suggested UVs are any MAX damage resist (provided you can get two of the same) and well as any status that bugs you.

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Final choices for Guardian offence are:

Callahan is a good, fast 2 shot pierce gun with a stun status. This is currently the favored gun. For UVs consider fiend and beast damage boost as well as ASI, if you are feeling brave or want to put in a hard first hit CTR would be good too.

The Iron Slug is an OK normal damage gun. It has a good flinch rate but this fades in large parties. For UVs consider Slime and construct so you will have a guardian gun to cover what the Callahan can't. The other UV choices should be ASI or CTR for the same reasons as the Callahan.

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The Sudaruska is a fun sword to play with, it has good knockback, and normal damage output. The charge attack is good for opening fights, devastating narrow corridors, and shutting down turrets. With the reliable charge knockback you are safe to use it at any angle.

The Triglav is somewhat different than the Suda, just enough to warrant a slightly different play style. Since it can inflict freeze on the combo end it is safer not to attack the enemy head on, rather, attack at enough of an angle so that they aren't frozen and aimed at you. The charge can be used like the Suda but keep in mind the little rule about frozen enemies.

UVs for these two should definitely have ASI to counter the armor’s decrease followed by a damage boost against a slow monster family and perhaps CTR.

Divine avenger is a normal/elemental sword with a slightly faster swing than the Troika lines. Its charge attack is very different, your character takes a step back, and swings; this swing releases 3 phantom blades that fly out in a cone shape knocking back enemies and dealing good damage. If this charge is released with you back to the wall the phantom blades will break on the wall and only your swing will do damage.

Gran Faust is a normal/shadow sword that swings as fast as the DA (the speed bar lies). Its charge attack is much like the DA but instead it releases one, the charge attack also has a chance to curse the user. This charge suffers the same flaw as the DA’s. The combo end also has the curse chance but it is rather low.

For these swords ASI is priority, while the DA gains more from CTR the GF does not due to the self-curse chance. The UVs for DA should be construct or undead boost with ASI and CTR. GF should have gremlin and slime coupled with ASI.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 09:30
#1
Bopp's picture
Bopp
comments

It's great to see people advocating thoughtfully for unusual play styles.

Considering adding more about shields. Guardians can shield-bump enemies away. A guardian can shield while his teammate fires a gun from within the shield.

Although it gets a lot of hate due to unskilled use, Polaris/Supernova is really effective at shaping crowds, both for offense and defense. Consider integrating this tool into your guardian scheme.

Doesn't a lot of the AI in this game cause the monster to aggro on the knight who's inflicting the most damage? What does that do to your idea of a guardian drawing aggro? Does your theory work in practice?

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 10:30
#2
Glacies's picture
Glacies

Actually, I think the Aggro is based on number of hits, not damage at least in a general sense. Since the Haze Bomb inflicts non-damage ticks onto a target, the enemy will always primarily focus on them unless Player B is able to inflict a lot more hits on the target.

Though I could be wrong.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 11:43
#3
Drischa's picture
Drischa

@Glacies
I'm pretty ceartain that Vanaduke never aggros to me when I've using shivermist, even if there's only one other person blitzing and they spend a while killing zombies. It could well be something like damage/hits, we should test it!
Ash of Agni would be the best aggro-drawing haze, due to it's damage output.
Voltaic Tempest would probably be second best due to the slightly smaller damage, however it would also nearly lock monsters in place (but still allowing them to be moved via shield bumps/hits)
Shivermist buster almost removes the need for aggro as everything is frozen in place.

But that's enough about those.

I'd say that guardian gear is simply a bit redundant in this game. The plate mail defence is good, but unless you're using a weapon that does not benefit from attack speed (bombs, some charge attack-focused weapons) then you're better off with something else. The weapons are simply low damage.

The way I see it, most things in this game are pretty powerful if everyone in the aprty is using the same style. If everyone is using brandishes, everything dies really fast. If everyone is using sudaruskas, the enemies are always on the other side of the room. If everyone is using catalyzers, everything explodes. If everyone is using haze bombs, you can sit back and laugh while the monsters are completely incapitated and slowly melt to death.
The issue is that everyone uses brandishes - this makes some other weapons pointless. Why should I tag an enemy with my Biohazard when someone else is just going to Acheron its face off less than a second after?
If it was the other way round: Why should I bother hitting an enemy with my Acheron when it's about to explode from the 3 Biohazard tags people put on as soon as it spawned? It could work either way, but it doesn't.

I dunno. I think that the non-pvp guardian shields should get some big buff but also a heavy nerf at the same time. Giving them ASD/MSD but giving them omega shell health and letting them protect teammates within the dome (this does not currently work, much to my annoyance). Or even giving them some damage reduction when the shield is down - I'm pretty sure that ironmight plate would block some normal damage if you put it between you and a monster!

/rambling

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 12:12
#4
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
Support classes in any game

Support classes in any game are often neglected due to the fact that most people prefer to do as much damage as possible in a short amount of time, unless their utility is made to be extremely useful (plz watch link to see point) or even necessary to a point.

Bombs used to be a purely support/mediocre damage weapon but with the advent of Compounds they have become more useful than ever, building a level in which a guardian can shine however will truly be a feat.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 15:36
#5
Poopsie's picture
Poopsie
...

Haze/Vapor Bombs is the best way to attract all monsters, magnus / sudaruska is too slow. While your teammate could immediately take the agro back, but they have much smaller range compared to haze bomb, that you still agro the majority of monsters. So they could chip in, killing monster one by one while majority monsters are chasing you.

@Glacies
Not exactly number of hits, but non-damage parts (status effects) have their own value. Though the value is mostly smaller compared to pure number damage. The simple example would be your shield against zombie's breath. Zombie's breath does no damage, but without proper status effect resist, it depletes your shield hp.

@Drachronos
Hence, your shivermist is just get "out-damaged" by your teammate. You can test by asking the player who did the highest damage to cloak or dash (de-agro vana), then surely vana will come after you... if the rest of the party is not doing more significant than you.

@Holy-Nightmare
I think you just lack of bombing experience. They are not mediocre, bombing team-mates could efficiently kills almost anything. in my opinion... the best and fastest to proceed fiend arena (especially 12 greavers last wave) is by bombing.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 15:38
#6
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Poopsie you know my name but not me....

Bombs were not my first weapon line at all, in fact I began as the typical gunner with sword hybrid, and while I don't have a huge mass of bombs in my inventory (16swords/18guns/16bombs) I have gotten the hang of predicting enemy knockback with blast bombs, chaining vortexes for maximum holding time, evasion during shard and DR chains, and timing the placement of hazes.

My argument for/against bombs was not that they don't have a place or time but that when it comes to 1v1 PVE DPS they often don't stack up to the safe usability of guns or the fast damage of swords. I love soloing arenas and compounds with bombs (I even seek out compounds with party finder to help out).

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 15:54
#7
Krakob's picture
Krakob

I recall something similar being discussed some while ago, which is why I'm not really interested in participating in the discussion.

In fact, here is the link: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/82114

I do think this is an interesting style, anyway. Most people are just too boring.

Tue, 07/15/2014 - 19:48
#8
Kathrine-Dragon's picture
Kathrine-Dragon

Quite frankly there are two classes: high dps and fun. For you to say that a guardian's role is to hold down choke points, corner monsters, and unleash powerful attacks it means you give someone chaos, supernova, and acheron. Fairly self-explanatory. This makes the guardian a high-dps class, falling into the same class as the striker (hard-hitting, fast offensive) and recon (single-target, massive damage). But that's in the letter of the class and not the spirit of the class.

So what is in the spirit of the class? Slow, "heavy" damage. Blast bombs, Suda, GF/DA, etc., all which are very fun. There's also my preferred style, the fast, light weapons like antiguas, cutters, and the ASI max winmillion I am very proud of.

Back to the point, I appreciate the effort you put into this. It sums up the slow-styled fun class very well. However, I disagree. To play the slow style, it is best to max out damage and neglect all speed boosts. The goal of a "guardian", as you put it, is to smack your opponent hard and slow, (I was going to write an advantage this style has over others but that's only stun. Oh well, that's in the spirit of the fun class)...

Err... GL HF whacking things around.

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 04:38
#9
Total-Bagel
Agreeing with Krakob

I agree with Krakob being a Guard isnt as fun or interesting as having Wolver Set or Chaos Sets.
Spamming Voltedge(which is my personal favourite) is 10 times as effective.
If you are trying to solo vana being a guard with calla and sud/DA is veryyyyy slow and boring.
The most depressing thing is the Attack speed decrease of the armours.

Mon, 07/21/2014 - 22:28
#10
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

A wonderful reference for the next time I feel like letting my team down with ridiculous antics.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 04:48
#11
Krakob's picture
Krakob

I agree with Krakob being a Guard isnt as fun or interesting as having Wolver Set or Chaos Sets.
Then you misinterpreted my post.

Tue, 07/22/2014 - 17:53
#12
Golfdinger's picture
Golfdinger
10/10 guide had me cringing

10/10 guide had me cringing with both hands on face

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