Spiral Knights - A NEW DESCRIPTION FOR THE WILD BUSTER + your ultimate guide on the Torto Guns

A NEW DESCRIPTION FOR THE WILD BUSTER + your ultimate guide on the Torto Guns

20 replies [Last post]

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:05

Tqs-Remx

Wild Buster:
"A handgun alchemized from a hardened tortodrone shell. While wielding it, you can feel the disappointment and regret of torto gun crafting within you just waiting to be unleashed."

I didn't expect a gun to be released before the gunner update, however I did expect a failure of a gun the moment I saw it the first time.

Unfortunately, curiosity got the better of me and I shelled out quite a lot of resources to try out the new torto gun. The following 3 lines summarises my impression of the new gun.

It doesn't act like a proper sword.
It doesn't act like a proper bomb.
It doesn't act like a proper gun.

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Torto Gun mechanics overlook
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Let's have a quick look at the unique mechanics of these new guns:
- User dashes forward when attacking
- User dashes backwards when initiating a charge attack
- 2 stage normal attack pattern:
==> punching a mob with the gun will deal damage
==> projectile created from the punch will deal damage
- Artillery-like charge attack

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Utility of Torto Guns: Pros and Cons (in PvE)
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Okay, so let's analyse the utility of the torto guns through its pros and cons. I'm a realist, so let's start with the cons followed by the pros.

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Cons:
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- Severely below average projectile range for normal attacks
The conventional gun's utility is to provide damage over large distances, so that mobs are not able to counterattack, essentially allowing the user to kite enemies. Since the torto gun has reduced projectile range, it tries to act like a sword, just without the damage output of the conventional swords. Furthermore, kitting is impractical with such a short projectile range.

- Pseudo random AoE targeting on charge attacks
The charge attacks of all conventional guns have a predictable and reliable charge attack pattern. The torto gun fails as a gun and as a bomb imitator as every charged shot is unpredictable and unreliable for damage and crowd control. Hell, even conventional bombs have better reliability and predictability than the torto guns.

- T3 wolvers will dodge projectiles even at point blank range
T3 wolvers will teleport as the gun produces a projectile. Since the torto gun's overall damage output for normal attacks is split into 2 stages, it essentially 1/2 the potential dps of the gun.

- Torto gun is an inefficient weapon for quick switching usage compared to alchemers, blasters and pulsars
Quick switching with this gun is horrible, even the magnus guns can quick switch more fluidly than this joke of a gun.

- Charge attacks suffers from invinci-ticks
Oh yeah, invinci-ticks are back, who knows why OOO have to put them on this gun. But either way, this reduces the potential dps of the charge attack.

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Pros:
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- No movement speed penalty when reloading or charging
It is a nice advantage, but it will be short lived, as it is rumored (open to speculation, may not be true by the time of the actual update) that the gunner update will allow all guns to have no movement speed penalty when reloading or charging.

- Charge attack creates physical obstacles for mobs that deals additional damage when mobs touch the shards
You might think that, by chance, you may be able to trap a mob and deal infinite damage until the shards disappear. However, invinci-ticks are here to spoil that fun for you by nullifying damage and reward you with a 'tink tink tink tink tink' sound for your efforts.

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Misc. analysis of the Torto Guns
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Here's some food for thought:
One of the reason for why the old RSS experienced a rework was because, for a bomb, it had 'gun' like features ie. the ability to snipe mobs across gaps.

Now that the torto guns (with sword and bomb like features) exist, can bombers get the old RSS back? (SPOILER ALERT: it won't happen) Or must OOO rework the torto gun mechanics in a year's time?

Here's some words of advice:
Since the piercing torto gun are on the autogun alchemy line, you might as well get blitz if you're in need of a piercing gun. (Or the elemental/shadow needlers that are rumored (open to speculation, may not be true by the time of the actual update) to be introduced in the gunner update some time in the future)

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PvP Utility of the Torto Guns
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So the new gun doesn't stand well in PvE compared to the conventional guns. Well what about in PvP then?

Since each normal attack deals all its potential damage in 2 stages, each stage is effected by lag - it is improbable for someone to get it by both stages of the normal attack unless the user has low ping and the target has high ping. Furthermore, invinci-frames would kick in for the target (assuming both user and target had equal latency) when they get hit with the punch (of the gun) and thereby nullifying the damage of the following projectiles. 1/2 of the overall potential damage would be lost because of this PvP mechanic.

Since the new guns has shorter normal attack range than conventional guns, the user must attack at close range. At close range, you might as well use a sword as it outdps the torto gun and has a faster attack animation. The charge attack may be good for area denial, but the charge and set up time (even with max CTR as there is a set, unchangeable delay on initiating the charge attack to potential damage being dealt) is too long and the duration of the charge shards is too short to be effective in the short run.

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Final Personal Thoughts >> (Please take my personal opinion of 2 sentences with a grain of salt if you disagree)
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The hype surrounding this gun disguises the uselessness of the torto guns. Looks epic, but doesn't function on par with conventional guns.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:59

Skepticraven

↓

Looks epic, but I don't know any good strategies to use it yet.

Fixed it.
Normal and charge shot has interrupt similar to the ferrous mollusk and callyhand.
Charge shot recovery is laughably faster than blitz, with an inherent dodge from the release of the shards.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:05

Fehzor

Don't you think its a bit early to be saying things like this?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:30

Terrifying-Pancake

Its not too early unless he

Its not too early unless he doesnt have the gun.

What I'd like to know is if the 2 stages actually splits the dmg or if they actually do decent damage with each hit.

Also, OP, you are technically incorrect on the switching aspect. It is faster that a magnus, because it has 2 attacks. You are forgetting the punch.

Tortogun: Fist > projectile >switch > fist > projectile and so on.
mMagnus: Shoot > switch > shoot and so on.

Following these guidelines for switching, the rate at which the tortogun ATTACKS is faster.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 01:16

Tqs-Remx

@Skepticraven

Yes it's true that normal and charge shot has interrupt similar to callahan. With that logic, I'd rather use callahan for the range advantage and the reliable and predictable charge shot attack pattern, both things the torto guns don't have. Yes, callahan attacks stop the user from moving, but so does the torto guns, they stop movement and then force you to move in a user determined direction with a predetermined distance.

As to charge recovery comparison to blitz, there is no issue of charge recovery for blitz charge as it practically destroys 99% of enemies that does not resist piercing, you can recover as long as you like once your enemies turned into dust. If you are worried about getting counterattacked by other mobs, you can always stand a bit further back away from the mobs and fire your blitz.

Also, with the "inherent dodge", the distance covered is only ~60% of a normal dash. Furthermore, mobs can target on your location after your charge attack. You're not invincible during the charge attack knockback, you can take damage from mob attacks while you're spinning past them, you can't spin past active traps or any other environmental hazards.

Look Skep, I said that in my final thought that the gun looks epic, but it doesn't function on par with conventional guns. CONVENTIONAL GUNS. This guide was a comparison between the torto guns and the guns we are so use to.

I never said that there wasn't any strategies behind it, I merely analyse the mechanics behind it.
Please don't change my words to suit your way of thinking.

Also, why do you only comment on the last line of my post? Why do you not comment on the mechanics of the gun (PvE and PvP)? Is it because you agree with me, but can't accept that I have valid opinions? Who knows?

@Fehzor, no it is never too early review items, the sooner the better as players who are thinking of getting this gun are now more informed about the gun mechanics and how it may affect their gameplay.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 22:14

Fehzor

What I mean is that for us to really understand everything about the guns and have a real discussion or write a guide, it would help to actually have a group of people with all of the guns heated and ready to go, and then to have had that group of people spend a good few days or months using them. A lot of the points in the OP are kind of misguided in this way.

Oh yeah, invinci-ticks are back, who knows why OOO have to put them on this gun. But either way, this reduces the potential dps of the charge attack.

Invinci-tinks = shard bombs = bad, but wait a minute...... They only occur on the crystals after they've hit the ground, and it makes sense for them to. Should a turret, or a vanaduke, or something else force themselves on top of 3-4 crystals... well, imagine what the damage would look like, as a solid stream of numbers that destroys anything it touches in 5 seconds. So instead, you can hit three or four times tops, maybe a bit more, before your damage cuts out. Which is fair, considering the damage you've already had the opportunity to deal, invinci-tink free.

Compare tortogun's charge to blitz needle's charge.

Blitz = 229 x 15 = 3,435; Any number of enemies

Tortogun = 229 x (enemies hit * shards that hit them) + 170 * (times bumped before invincitinks) = ???

So if you're on FSC, and you get a good hit off and nail a group of 6 zombies with an average of 3 shards each, and each bump an average of one time...

229 * 18 + 170 * 6 = 5,142; requires crowd of 6ish

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 01:39

Tqs-Remx

@Fettuccine-Alfredo

Yes, I do have the gun (soon to be 5*), as stated at the top: "shelled out quite a lot of resources to try out the new torto gun" XD

The gun does (for simplicity sake, using the piercing torto gun) piercing damage against on both the punch and the projectile. The punch is weaker than the projectile. If my calculations are correct, the (damage wise against wolvers and develites) punch does ~72% (+/- 5%) of the projectile damage and that the punch contributes ~42% (+/- 5%) of total potential damage of the normal attack combo. +/- 5% is there to take account of heat level, star level of the weapon and clockwork depth.

As for quick switching, the main advantage and usage for quick switching is to be in control of your gun's reload animation, player movement and shooting speed. I'm sorry but you're not correct, as there is a wind up time for the thrust before you can shield cancel. Furthermore, the reload animation of the torto gun is just slightly longer than the callahan, so if you screw up quick switching, there will be a slight (and I really mean just slightly) longer delay on your next quick switch combo.

"It is faster that a magnus, because it has 2 attacks" - Fettuccine
Number of attacks does not equal to attack speed.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 01:18

Tqs-Remx

@Fehzor on #5

/sigh Fehzor, I never said that invinci-ticks were equal to shard bombs, I said and implied that it stops any further damage which could be abused. The key word here is POTENTIAL DAMAGE.

I won't disagree with your damage calculation as I've never talked about damage values in my OP. Once again I must remind you and to all that I was comparing MECHANICS between the torto guns and conventional guns.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 03:12

Drischa

T3 wolvers will teleport as the gun produces a projectile. Since the torto gun's overall damage output for normal attacks is split into 2 stages, it essentially 1/2 the potential dps of the gun.

They only dodge if you're bad at it. Once wolvers start attacking, they don't dodge - use this to smash them in the face with two very quick attacks. They won't dodge the first shot and the second punch will flinch them if you have enough damage boost (Which you should certainly have, the punch can instaflinch gorgos with more damage boost, but you should be using the charge attack on those)

Also, the shot does about 50% more damage than the punch, so you'd be 1/3rding the dps. But that doesn't happen if you know what you're doing.

Bear in mind you're only reviewing the piercing gun. You might want to rename the last bit of the title to "a guide on the Savage Tortofist".
The other ones are probably better simply due to the enemies you'll be using them on.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 05:12

Tqs-Remx

@Drachronos

T3 wolvers, under controlled, perfect circumstances, will dodge projectiles whenever possible (ie. when their teleport ability is off cooldown). I thought that the T3 wolver teleportation mechanics was common knowledge, but apparently I need to specify that my observations were under strict conditions. I'll make sure to specify that the next time I do another weapon analysis.

Furthermore, the scenario you have given adds and changes variables to your observations such as attacking for the purpose of interruption and adding damage bonuses to increase the chances of interruption, thereby leading to varied results which are not easily replicated. The observations I've made was that the test attack was made when the T3 wolver was in its idle position, not attacking, barking, moving or spawning or under status effects. The test attack was repeated several times with the same conditions and the same results were observed, the T3 wolver dodged the projectile and therefore essentially dodged 1/2 of the potential dps of the gun.

In post #6, I calculated that the punch does ~42% of the total potential damage of the normal attack combo. Saying that 1/3 (33.3%) is a value closer to 42% than it is to 50% is ridiculous and not mathematically sound. I only used '1/2' as a simplified term for ease of understanding. I do apologise for any confusion created from this simplification.

And bear in mind that I never specified that I was solely reviewing the piercing gun, I used wild buster at the beginning to edit the description for dramatic purposes and to set the tone of the OP.

The mechanics of the torto guns are universial for all 4 types and this guide was made to analyse these mechanics, therefore there is no need to change the title of the OP as you have suggested. Additionally, in relation to the T3 wolver teleportation, all torto gun projectiles will trigger the T3 wolver's teleport ability under controlled, perfect circumstances.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 05:45

#10

Skepticraven

↓

"/sigh Fehzor, I never said that invinci-ticks were equal to shard bombs, I said and implied that it stops any further damage which could be abused. The key word here is POTENTIAL DAMAGE."

I find that unless I'm hitting a monster that has a ton of HP or is resistant to my damage type, they die before invinci-tinks begin. Maulos sure has a lot of HP, and I found the entirety of Heart of Ice simple using a fully heated 5* version of this gun (with 2 players on elite - so we had exploding lost souls to deal with too). I would have died multiple times if I were to have used a blitz needle because devilites, wolvers, and lost souls take severe advantage of you if they happen to survive/dodge a blitz charge.

There is a lot more to damage than just straight DPS output. And in fact, Fehzor even proposed a situation where the tortofist produces higher DPS than a blitz. Its strength is in heavy damage crowd control.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 07:58

#11

Tqs-Remx

@Skepticraven on #10

The first paragraph after the quote of your response is an experience which gives unconscious bias towards the torto guns because you only talked about the advantages against the blitz. As part of my analysis, I would like to know what were the disadvantages of using the torto guns. I'm assuming you bought a sword(s) along with the gun and used the torto gun as a support weapon. Be honest here, as your response may contribute to the creation of future guides (by other players) of the torto guns.

Why don't I help out here with some questions on the disadvantages of the torto guns:
1. Were you (more than 50% of the time) out of position/in the wrong position after you initiated a normal attack combo or charged attack?
2. Did you come close to taking/did take damage in the aftermath of the usage of the torto gun because of a normal attack combo or charged attack you initiated?
3. Did you (more than 50% of the time) use the torto gun to finish of a low health mob? Were there any, more efficient weapons that you could have used instead?
4. Did you expect, and witness the charged shards land in the most ideal spot and deal the most damage possible? Or was the charged shards in a position which could have been improved if the charged attack pattern was predictable and reliable?

There's many more questions for the torto guns, but I would like you to give me very detailed response. Please, if possible.

As for Fehzor and his proposed situation; it's called theorycrafting. As the charge attack patten of the torto gun is pseudo random, he applied an average-type situation in order to calculate the potential damage output. In his scenario he required 6 enemies in order to surpass the total damage output of the blitz. In a 1:1 situation, blitz out damages with a damage output of 3,435 (because Fehzor said: "Blitz = 229 x 15 = 3,435; Any number of enemies", so therefore I choose 1 enemy) while the torto gun would average out at 857 damage, as 5142 / 6 = 857 via Fehzor's calculation. However, I would like to note that Fehzor only used averages to calculate damage output. So I would like to correct him by using the most optimal, perfect situation to calculate total potential damage output.

Via Fehzor's calculation:
"Tortogun = 229 x (enemies hit * shards that hit them) + 170 * (times bumped before invincitinks) = ???"
The most optimal, perfect situation is where a charged shot hits a group of 6 zombies with all 6 shards each and that each zombie receives bump damage of the maximum amount of 6 instances before invinci-tinks applies.

Therefore the total potential damage output of the torto gun is:
(299 x (6 x 6)) + (170 x (6 x 6)) = 16,884

Impressive, but remember, 6 zombies were required. So what is the potential damage output for 1 zombie?
16,884 / 6 = 2,814

So blitz deals 3,435 to 1 enemy, while torto gun deals 2,814 to 1 enemy.

3,435 is not a value lower than 2,814. Therefore Blitz produces a higher potential dps than the torto guns.
You said: "Fehzor even proposed a situation where the tortofist produces higher DPS than a blitz". I believe that I have now disproved this.

In relation to your last line of your response: "Its strength is in heavy damage crowd control". Let me say that you have forgotten that the charge attack (for crowd control damage) is pseudo random, thus its strength varies because its damage output and crowd control capability and utility varies based on RNG.

Okay now, I need to sleep. I'll respond to your response tomorrow morning.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 08:04

#12

Skepticraven

↓

Do I contend that tortofists are the optimal 1-monster weapon? I dont think so.
Do I contend that tortofists are most likely the optimal multiple monster weapon? Yes.

Not only does it spray an area, but it also has great mobility to avoid getting damaged.

Now onto your questions:
1. Almost nowhere - the mobility is very good.
2. Only a couple times with the normal attack against greavers (if I missed them).
3. Most sword first swings kill off low health mobs the best, simply due to the range of attacks. I have used the normal attack of this gun to finish off mobs due to laziness of swapping weapons, but it is not ideal for that purpose.
4. It is predictable (once you determine how it functions). In fact, predictable enough that I land significant damage with about 90% of my charge shots. It is not as predictable as say a blitz, but is more closer to landing a driver charge's internal ricochets.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 09:29

#13

Terrifying-Pancake

@Tqs my bad, I should have

@Tqs my bad, I should have been morespecific :)

I meant that singls switching with the gun is faster than with the magnus. But in terms of just pressing the attack button and reloading, I see where you are coming from.

Btw people are scared of this gun in LD...i was spamming charges, and a vog sees it and runs back into base with its polaris.

People are scared of stuff they dont understand....hehehe

Tenkii get 20k with this and make vid pls

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 09:52

#14

Drischa

the 1/2 damage things was just what I assumed, Since other weapons witha two-hit 'swing' (DVS, WHB and winmillion) all have a 2:1 ratio in their attacks. I also didn't read post '6, I was just looking at the OP. Sorry.

So basically you're saying that the wolver will always dodge when you attack it whiel it's staying still, doing nothing. Ok, so just attack it when it won't dodge. I wouldn't list it as a weakpoint when you can avoid it simply by knowing the wolver AI.

I took the 5* piercing tortogun into vanaduke today. I managed to flinch him with it a couple of times, if I got 5 or 6 shots to hit at once.
Yeah, flinching vanaduke. Not even blitz does that.
Not to mention you get insane mobility. I was fighting him with double health since the rest of my party died, and I only died due to fire spawning at my feet (my fault, should have paid more attention to the ceiling).

It is true that the mechanics are the same for all the tortogunes - however you won't go using omega tortofist on wolvers, so the dodging 'flaw' is not a factor. The enemies you use it on can make a huge difference, I was using the elemental 4* 'barrier cannon' against zombies and it was wiping half their health off in one charge a lot of the time. That's an unheated, level 1 4*. The level 10 5* would probably have killed them in those circumstances, which is comparible to getting a good charge on glacius/voltedge. that's my opinion at least.

I haven't even tried them on slimes yet, but by the fact that slimes are stupid and really kitable I imagine the invinciframes will be a pain but it'll be easy to get extra damage.

Honestly? I think you need to stop being so negative about these cool new additions to the game. They are good weapons. But there are stupidly overpowered ones available that currently overshadow them.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 10:23

#15

Fehzor

I just think that you're dismissing these new weapons rather swiftly. Despite the randomness of the shots, its a fairly agile way to deal this kind of bulky damage, and it hasn't been uncommon for me to end up projecting the shots exactly as I need to.

When the game was new, people thought the autoguns were terrible. Why? Because they make you hold still while firing, and that just gets you hit. They aren't even usable! Now its blitz needle this and blitz needle that.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 20:31

#16

Tqs-Remx

Good Morning, Good Afternoon, Good Evening

@Skepticraven on #12
Thank you for your response.

@Fettuccine-Alfredo on #13
Let's look at how single switching works for both guns, where each process and animation increases the time spent on using the gun before single switching. I'll show the process required to shoot 2 projectiles against a punching/training bag.

For torto guns:
Torto gun idle => thrust animation => player movement => punch damage observed => projectile damage observed => shield cancel => single switch back to torto gun => thrust animation => player movement => punch damage observed => projectile damage observed => torto gun idle
Number of processes/animation (excluding idle animation) = 10

For magnus guns:
Magnus gun idle => gun firing animation => bullet damage observed => shield cancel => single switch back to magnus gun => gun firing animation => bullet damage observed => magnus gun idle
Number of processes/animation (excluding idle animation) = 6

So as you can see, magnus beats torto guns by 4 because the thrust animation forces the user to move before the punch and the projectile. Since magnus has a lower number of process/animations to achieve 2 volleys with single switching, this translates to magnus being the quicker gun to single switch.

@Drachrones on #14
I consider torto gun mechanics against T3 wolver AI as a weakpoint because I consider how potential damage is being dealt with normal attacks. Since torto gun's normal attacks are split into 2 stages, there is a chance for T3 wolvers to teleport away from the projectile, even if you are attempting to prevent said teleportation. I placed the torto gun mechanic against T3 wolver AI as a 'con' because I want to imply that users should be wary that the 2nd stage of the normal attack may not connect, even at close range, because it may trigger their teleport abilities.

The 'dodging flaw' you've described is a factor that applies to all torto guns. Even if you don't use the Omega Tortofist on T3 wolvers does not mean that T3 wolver AI have specific coding to not attempt to dodge Omega Tortofist projectiles.

Savage Tortofist is able to flinch Vanaduke because all its initial damage (from the charge attack I presume) hits simultaneously as appose to blitz where it spews out 15 seperate entities, one after the other, each at different angles, meaning that some needles arrive to the target sooner than others. Even though the arrival time difference is small, it is enough for the game engine to consider not to flinch Vanaduke.

And besides; why do you say 'negativity', when all I did was a comparison and analysis between the mechanics of the torto guns and conventional guns?

@Fehzor
Same applies to you; why do you say 'dismission', when all I did was a comparison and analysis between the mechanics of the torto guns and conventional guns?

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It's just a simple comparison and analysis. That's all. No more, no less.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 20:33

#17

Skepticraven

↓

"It's just a simple comparison and analysis. That's all. No more, no less."

I still hold my position in this post about your "simple" conclusions.
In fact, there is a whole other thread finding some very useful strategies (just look at the last couple posts). Most enemies are dead before invincitinks set in unless you are using the wrong damage type against the monster.

Comparatively, these guns are superior against monsters in comparison to standard guns if you can use them effectively in a team (similar to the neutralizer/biohazard dilemma). The shard walls from the charge are unique to these guns and create very strong and interesting weapon dynamics.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 21:12

#18

Fehzor

No, you immediately came to the conclusion that the guns were useless.

You didn't really do a comparison to like weapons, or mention anything about DPS, or utility. What are the implications of being able to throw up walls? When would that be useful? How does the DPS compare to swords and other guns? These guns obviously present ample opportunity to be creative with how you use them- how valuable can they get?

The same doesn't necessarily apply to me, as I haven't written any guides on how terrible/wonderful they are. I think they seem promising, but only time will tell whether they become a valued part of my arsenal or not. I can see how they would be good, and I can see how they would be bad. I'm leaning strongly towards good at this point, especially now that I've spent the better part of two days using them.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 21:58

#19

Exerpa

There sure is a lot of walls

There sure is a lot of walls of text to crawl thru.

So rather than doing that, I'll just say my preliminary experience with the Pierce 5* and Normal 3* (want the other 2 first so conserving shells).
While the Pierce gun is questionable when facing off against a Needle or Magnus , the normal (and by extension shadow/elemental) look to be reasonably competitive with Alchemers. The bombing charge seems have a chance of dishing out competitive damage on several small slimes or a single large one, but more notably the swordplay + delayed bombing charge seems promising against the gunslingers natural enemy - the Mecha Knight. Previously viable anti-mecha gun charges usually involve picking them off one at a time so being able to multi-hit a bunch of them now is very welcome, not to mention that the option of fighting with a pseudo-sword hopefully means joining in with swordsmen rather than hindering them.

I'm moderately optimistic the green gun will be my weapon of choice during mecha heavy arena scenarios.

Sat, 07/19/2014 - 04:39

#20

Drischa

Saying that the wolver dodging the projectile is a weakpoint of all the guns is like saying that the charge attack of Acheron is a weakpoint because wolvers sodge the explosions.
Yes, wolver AI doesn't dodge omega tortofist projectiles, but it's not a weakpoint of the gun because only a completel idiot would actually use it on wolvers. Again, saying omega shell has that flaw is like saying combuster has the flaw that wolvers dodge the charge explosions, or that blitz needle bullets cause mecha knights to shield. Dodging is not that much of a problem for the tortofists if you actually use the gun well.

Honestly? I think you just don't know how to use the tortodrone guns. Most other people here seem to be saying that the tortodrone guns are good and yet every post you make counters their point with a general negativety that seems to make me think that you simply do not get on well with tortodrone guns and therefore want to shun them.

I assumed the same about the charge flinching a well. However I did notice that the flinch was actually when the first 'ticks' of damage from the shards hit, meaning that the delay between them was small enough that it could cause enough damage to flinch a monster with 45k hitpoints. That's pretty impressive, admit it.

Also, in an ealier post, you mentioned 'potential damage' of blitz and the savage tortoise, with blitz having a much higher 'potential damage'.
I'd just like to mention that the Blitz Needle's bullets can only hit one (two if you're lucky) targets each, and the attack roots you in place for a while and you move slowly while charging.
Savage tortoise's charge 'projectiles' have an AOE that is fairly likely to hit multiple targets, and you also are much more safe when using it.
So blitz needle charges are better against single targets, and tortofist charges are arguably better against groups.

inb4 another multi point post using the exact same invalid arguments as before

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A NEW DESCRIPTION FOR THE WILD BUSTER + your ultimate guide on the Torto Guns