Spiral Knights - What rarities actually do for the game

What rarities actually do for the game

29 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 06:52

Fehzor

There will always be some limiting factor on crafting gear.

First it was materials, then it was energy and crowns, now it is radiant fire crystals and orbs. But does it really matter, and is the game better off with one over the others?

Let's say we got rid of the forge and made gear cost far more materials than they do now..... So much more, that it takes the same amount of grinding as it does now to craft and sure, they can sell materials or what have you in the supply depot. The benefit to this is that it makes individual levels worth more and gives them a unique set of rewards, the drawback is that it makes treasure boxes worth much less, which really upsets the balance among levels.

The real issue is not the forge, but that gear cannot be limited by any two factors. This makes the best solution something like one universal gear crafting rarity, combined with just the gear specific material in the case of event items but begs the question of what boxes or monsters will drop if not crafting ingredients.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 07:36

Zaffy-Laffy

They say that the slowest step in the collection process is the rate determining step. Regardless, the reason why we despise the forge is because it became the slowest step even for the rich and payable. The sheer cost of crystals in the energy depot has already completely if not mostly discouraged the purchase of it. For F2Pers the energy wasn't the limit anymore, but for P2Pers too, the forge is.

What rarities does, simply slowed down progression for everyone. Intended I supposed, but maybe too effective. So what do you suggest an alternative for the forge be then? A mechanism that allows normal progress for F2Pers but does not hinder those who still paid anyways? This is the crux of all MMORPGs, that it is undeniable that P2Pers are generally richer than the F2Pers, so how do you build a system to overcome that?

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 07:55

Vohtarak-Forum

i think that the material thing would work really well actually, because more people will actually do arcade to find materials (or vana spam and buy them, /sigh) and the material drops are already balanced well based on how different ones are acquired.
but the only problem I see in that is endgame who have stacked tons already without trying (10k ecto drops in the AH, remember that?)

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 08:02

Fehzor

The forge update in question introduced two things- increased prices, and what are basically box only materials; "rarities", which replaced energy as the limiting factor. These two things are mentioned interchangeably, when they should not be.

I'm not suggesting a fix, only that having both rarities and materials doesn't actually do anything for the game but make it more complicated.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 09:37

Bopp

asymptotic behavior

It is useful to consider the idea of the theoretically best equipment. The details aren't important, but right now that would be something like Black Kat armors with +4 status UVs, Chaos with +4 status UVs, Blitz/WRH/Acheron/Combuster/etc. with ASI+4 and CTR+4, etc. And of course it's all fully heated.

As you play the game more and more (or spend more and more real money), you approach this theoretical optimum. But, if the game is designed well, you approach it more and more slowly as time goes on. You get diminishing returns for your investment of time (or money). The theoretical optimum is an asymptote, or something like it. This design keeps you interested in the game, lets players far behind you still compete with you, etc.

Before the 2013-07-30 update, the main diminishing returns were on UVs. You got fully heated 5-star gear in a reasonable amount of time. Then you saved up to get nice UVs on it. Then you saved up to get nice second UVs on it. And so on.

After the 2013-07-30 update, I believe that Three Rings regards 5-star gear itself as part of the diminishing returns. Thus the final rank missions are dragged out. Players are annoyed by this for two reasons. First, finishing the rank missions was easier before the update, and players still remember that. Second, FSC is the best place to grind, and it comes after the 5-star gear clearance, which itself requires grinding.

In short, players want to complete the game, because it feels good to make progress and complete tasks. But Three Rings doesn't want players to complete the game, because they want players to keep playing the game.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 14:41

Vohtarak-Forum

I knew that you weren't suggesting the material thing fehzor, I just mentioned that it seems like a good idea

edit: fixed auto corrections

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 13:33

Fehzor

@Oohnorak I was actually

@Oohnorak

I was actually talking to Zaffy, and posted it while you were commenting sort of.

@Bopp

Yes, it would be possible to factor that in a changing difficulty of gear progression any number of ways-- regardless of whether you require a massive pile of materials, minerals, orbs, radiant fire crystals, or even nothing but ecto drops.

As for your actual points, I would like to think that there is another way than to just buff endgame players indefinitely as their reward. A level editor, or the ability to work towards cosmetic items, for example would allow for most endgame players to find enjoyment in the game after they've completed it while keeping everyone in check. The other real issue I have with limiting 5* gear, is that it makes the player not want to craft anything new or interesting, which will in turn make them more likely to just flat out leave as nothing in the game is worth their effort any longer. But this conversation is really quite off topic.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 14:10

Bopp

yes, level editor!

Yes, a level editor would be the most fantastic addition to the game ever. It would provide a lot of content for the game (both in the creation of levels and the playing of those levels by other people).

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 14:43

Vohtarak-Forum

there probably wont be a level editor setting
there have been so many suggestions for it, it would already be in game

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 15:13

Klipik-Forum

@Bopp #4

The annoying part is more specifically the actual grind, not that fact that it's there. What I mean is, I wouldn't really mind grinding out elites/eternals/Shinings if the places you have to grind are boring to play over and over again. A level editor would help this twofold: it would give endgame players something to do (assuming you restrict it to a high rank, which goes against this idea but oh well) and would give the leveling-up players more diversity of grinding locations so the grind doesn't feel as bad as it does currently where you basically farm RJP 24/7.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 16:11

#10

Nottheanswer

As others have aluded, the goal with Rarities was to enable experimentation: crafting gear more accessible, heating gear less accessible.

A couple snippets from Nick's comments prior to the patch that introduced rarites, found here:

"From a design perspective, we want to encourage Spiral Knights players to experiment with more of the game than our research shows that they currently do. It turns out that providing energy to players in greater or lesser amounts does not encourage them to try out different weapons and gear, something we have always believed was a core part of the Spiral Knights experience."

"The resources to build a broader arsenal of gear [...] will make it easier for Spiral Knights players to experiment with more varied equipment and gameplay styles."

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 17:03

#11

Klipik-Forum

Well I think someone somewhere decided they didn't want to "make it easier for Spiral Knights players to experiment with more varied equipment and gameplay styles" when they nerfed the Orb and Radiant drop rates into the ground. (Sparks too, but that didn't have as much of an impact.)

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 19:01

#12

Fehzor

Since I find myself with time and the topic seems to prefer this direction, I'll write one of my ideas.

First, no more radiants or orbs. Just materials.

Materials are all reassigned to be more or less level specific. For instance, compounds levels would have a unique material, that would have varieties for specific themes. Each win grants you only a few of the material, and items cost a significant amount of a variety of these. Materials will be balanced to be sufficiently in demand.

Minerals are made tradeable, and arcade construction returns, but in a new form. Individual combinations of minerals are deposited, and no crowns are given back. Instead, special levels will have a chance to appear if the right groupings of minerals are deposited, and players are able to acquire special reskinned weapons from the materials on these levels. A new combination+level is stealth patched in once a month... These levels would be mostly remastered existing levels.

Mon, 09/29/2014 - 19:29

#13

Skepticraven

↓

What do rarities do for the game?

Dropkicked the alt-abusers.
No more rage mist crafting. No more trading all the clockwork-found resources to one account.

I did the math awhile ago and F2Pers saw a boost of gear collection rates. P2Pers saw prices dramatically increase for being a P2W player.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 07:02

#14

Fehzor

The fact that they're bound on pick up and the removal of elevator fees+shared loot does that. If they'd have made materials bound etc., it would have had the same effect. The actual rarities themselves just complicate things.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 08:01

#15

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

if materials were bound they would have a low unbind fee probably put in
upside to that would be people actually using the material search in arcade (you know, in the recipe tab)

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 08:57

#16

Skepticraven

↓

The problem with binding materials instead of introducing rarities is the aspect of the current stockpiles of materials.

Would OOO bind them all to players? Would they stay unbound? Either way I suspect players would be sufficiently angry - Either a great loss of wealth or a great unfair gain of wealth.

Rarities add another thing to follow in the game (complicate things) but do not introduce any imbalance of wealth by modifying current aspects of the game. Yes, they could have had materials bound at day one of release - but it is not a good idea to start now.

For reference, I'm making a mint on my material stacks. It is currently at approximately 500kcrn vendor equivalent and have sold close to 1.5mcrn (at 10x vendor price). Bind it to me and I lose 4.5m equivalent. Bind all future and I could easily multiply my prices by 10 or more since unbound would be a commodity needed by new players. I also have close to 33k shining fire crystals - what happens to them?

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 09:49

#17

Fehzor

Lol I didn't say it was a "good idea" or that "it should happen". This isn't a suggestion, it's more of a PSA. People keep saying why rarities were necessary, but honestly there were dozens of ways both better and worse around creating rarities.

If they were to bind materials, I'm sure they would radically change things exactly as you said and wouldn't care one bit, and that would be that. Besides, we've already had this argument and you know it- making changes for the greater good of the game is always better than for the good of some partition of niche players.

If you were referring to my comment that I wrote when I had time, I would envision all rarities to be turned into forge/primal/grim sparks, at a curved rate to reflect the distributions of people's stuff. Materials would still be just as valuable to the player if not more, as they would be needed to craft gear. Since the costs all just rose, people would all benefit slightly from the transition. It would be a hard one, but not an impossible one. Materials purchased with sparks, and not all would be able to be purchased using sparks (which would come from the supply depot to replace orbs), would come unbound.

There is probably a much better way than bound materials though, to be honest. It's more of a thought experiment than a suggestion.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 10:55

#18

Skepticraven

↓

For not being a suggestion thread, you sure do suggest a lot. Is this a PSA for people to recall you have been making these suggestions all over the place?

"People keep saying why rarities were necessary, but honestly there were dozens of ways both better and worse around creating rarities."

I just told you why I thought your material idea would be horrible. What are the other dozen ways? Are there over two dozen ways?

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 10:55

#19

Fangel

This ain't the suggestion subforum

Doesn't mean we can't discuss bits and pieces but we're testing old waters with new ideas to see what ripples.

After instanced loot came out, my material count skyrocketed. That's pretty much mandatory for battle sprites anyways, but means there's so many more materials out there. I remember before the update actually trading sparks for materials. Now I just use 100 of them to buy trinkets to vendor.

As is, it would be cool to put materials back on specific enemies. I mean, what's a lichen doing holding driftwood? And lumbers don't drop it anymore? Come on, they're made of wood. This makes players seek out certain enemies rather than themes (which might be more complicated, honestly), and makes exploration the grind instead of farming for crowns or treasure boxes. We'd go to a fire-themed construct level because we need redwood, or to a fiend arena for that trojan horseshoe drop.
However, the orbs of alchemy are nice because it's essentially giving you free items to play with. However it would be nice if elite orbs acted more like shining fire crystals and showed up in all of tier 3.

All in all, if you play the game even casually you'll get all the materials you need. They're more in place as a way to make early-game players explore, because they likely aren't playing on elite and getting 30-40 materials per run. And at the early bit of the game, orbs of alchemy are handed out like candy from the missions! You aren't often grinding for simple or advanced orbs, or rather, for as long. The elite and eternal grind is what kills people.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:28

#20

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

well the bound materials could work well skeptic
make materials not dropped by monsters unbound
and saying its bad because of price can easily be used against any and all other fixes (it can even be used for rarities now)
putting them in supply depot for maybe:20 for 5*, 15 for 4*, 10 for 3*, 5 for 2*, and 1 for 1* and 0*, prices wouldn't raise much due to an already fair price put up by the supply depot

edit: I like that idea fangel

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 11:38

#21

Fehzor

@Skepticraven

Well there are infinitely many ways for you to implement more grinding so that players don't just win immediately without rarities. We could have level bound materials, enemy bound materials, a scavenger hunt format (where you must bring gear to certain places instead of collecting certain materials), or even just expensive one use recipes and no crafting costs.

And yes, that is exactly what the PSA is for, my secret agenda to enforce my evil rarity related suggestions. Also I'm a member of the Illuminati, and am secretly Nick, Hollows, J.K. Rowling and Kozma. I mean, you can't disprove that I'm not a fictional character.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 13:05

#22

Skepticraven

↓

"We could have level bound materials, enemy bound materials, a scavenger hunt format (where you must bring gear to certain places instead of collecting certain materials), or even just expensive one use recipes and no crafting costs."

We already have level bound materials. They're called shadow lair materials/grinchlin assault materials/seerus mask fragments.
We already have enemy bound materials. All materials are sorted by status and monster type. Also, there is boss token gear and that book of dark rituals.
We do not have scavenger hunt. I don't particularly like the idea of gear specific requirements for gear. It doesn't quite make sense.
We already have expensive one-use recipes for no crafting cost. They're called rarities.

"I mean, you can't disprove that I'm not a fictional character."

Are you telling me you are a work of fiction?

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 13:22

#23

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

ok ill go through corrections

shadow lair materials do not come bound, look on the AH (also I ran a few SLs and they were not bound

by enemy he meant you only get a drop from a single enemy (not a full type) (and y does a tree not drop wood but living hello does?)

rarities are not recipes,and they are not used in recipes, what are you even thinking?

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 13:27

#24

Skepticraven

↓

@Oohnorak

Okay, I'll go through corrections on your corrections.

Level bound means "can only be found in certain levels", not bound to the player upon acquisition.
Book, boss tokens, and seerus mask fragments are only dropped from 1 enemy.
Orbs of alchemy are rarities and are used in recipes.

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 13:34

#25

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak

well that makes some of my corrections invalid due to things being unspecified causing it to be read wrong

dropped from one enemy, event and boss are outliers to the main point,

and for the rarities I was thinking fire crystals, which was my bad, but you said rarities are one use recipes, which revalidates part of it

Tue, 09/30/2014 - 15:31

#26

Fehzor

I will clarify. We have none of those things as the main way to craft gear. I'm talking about a system based around them, not just one or two pieces of gear. I think that, rather than building on top of the existing system, correcting it would be a much better idea.

And yes, I am a work of fiction. That's why I'm here- I don't exist very well when I leave.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 08:58

#27

Irevolutioni

Hall Of Heroes.

The reason why the arcade died, is because recipes can now be bought from the Mission Hall off heroes.

And because off that the arcade is now dead content (well most off it is).
I think the hall off heroes should stay but the recipes there should have the old recipe prices like back in the days to 50k.
This will allow some crown sink for lazy people to buy from the missions. and will the other players motivate to earn some profit trough getting recipes from basil. Which basil should just have its original price fee. (25k)

With this I think it will attract some players to do at least some off the arcade runs.
The arcade missions aren't rewarding enough for as it stands right now. for example depth 19 is just plain waste off time.
Players should get rewarded for the time they invest and that is what this game misses out.

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 09:37

#28

Onekone

>As others have aluded, the goal with Rarities was to enable experimentation: crafting gear more accessible, heating gear less accessible.

Well, how do I put it... not really. Sure, you can get freebies (in orbs) now and then and craft whatever you want, but looking how problematic it is to get correct orbs (not 5* ones, but lower, I still have 15 5* spare orbs but almost none of lower tier ones) and the fact you can buy with energy anyway - what was the point of alchemy orbs then?

Fire crystals - just really annoying timesink

Sparks of life - Warframe does coop-revive, Firefall does coop-revive, Spiral Knights suddenly does not. And that annoying too - you can't casually get in and "have a bad field day" - those will cost you more and more sparks and then again - energy. Also fact that in the field game charges 50ce for spark, but sells bundle of 10 for 20ce/each is kind of frustruating too

Wed, 10/01/2014 - 11:46

#29

Fehzor

The post is really about the crafting/sprite rarities, and less about sparks of life.. but the principle is still the same- a spark of life by any other name still revives you.

Onward to the more exciting answers and questions.

"the goal with Rarities was to enable experimentation: crafting gear more accessible, heating gear less accessible."

Yes, this was directly stated by the developers, but it also conflicts with other goals and objectives stated here and there. For instance- we want to have everyone craft a variety of gear and then... slowly progress all the way to the finish? The issue with this is that I cannot fathom crafting a dread skelly helm to take out for a spin when doing so would require me weeks of grinding.... combine that with the fact that I can "trade" bound orbs for hypothetical crowns saved on UV rolls by rage crafting instead, and it's just not worth my time or effort to pay mind to these orbs.

I suppose this scenario would be much more effective if I had not reached past 4* gear yet. The more I played in T2, the more broad my arsenal would become. Eventually, you would reach T3, and be in a tremendous hurry to upgrade to 5*, and then you would have a bunch of even worse gear in S6 and would quit playing as you found you could not gather radiant fire crystals in a timely manner, and that everyone with "good" gear achieved it prior to the advent of radiant fire crystals, or had way too much time on their hands.

Perhaps really, the issue is that Onion Rings is failing at the transition from the casual early game where orbs are plentiful and expansion is encouraged to the more hardcore late game that works in every way to keep players grinding and gambling rather than the existence of something new to work towards outside the scope of becoming stronger.

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What rarities actually do for the game