Spiral Knights - I think that OOO is making a design error

I think that OOO is making a design error

21 replies [Last post]

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 17:19

Trats-Romra

Lately, I was thinking on this, because a forumer posted it on your comment.

If I recall correctly, the forumer quoted this:
We are removing mist energy for a couple of reasons. First, so that elevators will stop requiring the use of energy. Second, from a design perspective, we want to encourage Spiral Knights players to experiment with more of the game than our research shows that they currently do. It turns out that providing energy to players in greater or lesser amounts does not encourage them to try out different weapons and gear, something we have always believed was a core part of the Spiral Knights experience.

Frequently OOO indicate it by his words. They want that us explore the game.
If you look in the link on the "Orbs of Alchemy for Crafting" section, you will see that they want that players amass a higher arsenal, mainly the newbies. They say that orbs dropping would make to players experiment more varied equipment and playstyles.
You can found the same on About page:
"Co-opererative exploration"
"Create an Arsenal"
"... amass an arsenal of weapons and gear ..."
"Explore the mysteries of Clockworks"

I will quote again a part present on forumer's quote: It turns out that providing energy to players in greater or lesser amounts does not encourage them to try out different weapons and gear, something we have always believed was a core part of the Spiral Knights experience.

But, in practice, it doesn't occurs. On my opinion, it's because of a little word: Missions
Yes, this little word that is present on very beginning of the game. Why missions is a problem to this objective?
OOO want us to move like people do in a gallery: look at every single thing of it, moving in every direction. But the missions make us move in a linear way, indicating progress, advance and reaching of higher ranks. The missions are more present, they appear more. How a newbie have this linear thing more clear, he/she goes through it, trying to reach the higher ranks the most and easiest way possible. But, on a certain moment, they will find the big bad Hall of Heroes that stops it progress, so they start focusing in a single set, so they can continue to progress. And the better way to pass fastly is grinding, exactly what the newbies want, because they want to progress and not explore.

Do you see what I'm trying to point out? Since the beginning of the game, we, players, are enforced on linear path, this path is emphasized to us, like a big red carpet with a lot of arrows with flashing lights pointing the way.

If OOO really want that us explore the game, they need to make something about missions and how it's emphasized more than anything on game. Particularly, I think they need to restrict missions. Make it less available or more hard to access, like don't letting us play more than 3 missions for day. I don't know if it's the better idea. I just know that something need to be made.

So, on the same time that I'm sending a open letter to OOO, I'm letting forumers to look at my analysis and say what they think about the topic and/or critize my analysis.

Now... Discuss!

P.S: And sorry for any bad english on wall text.

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 18:04

Fangel

I know what you're getting at.

We over on the suggestion's forum have spoken a lot about this in the past.

A good suggestion to fix this is to make the arcade mandatory in order to let players progress in missions. By having players explore the game, they will explore the arsenals, the guilds, and everything there is to offer. A few ideas include: Making minerals mandatory for mission gates, making players have to run into a certain level type to unlock a mission, and many others I can't think of right now. Fehzor should have quite a few threads on the topic - try using a google search for their threads in the suggestions forum with the "site:forums.spiralknights.com" search parameter.

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 18:28

Trats-Romra

@Fangel
Making minerals mandatory for mission gates
Hey! This suggestions is mine!(Just a kidding)

Fehzor should have quite a few threads on the topic
Yeah, I know. On past, on some way, I disliked how Fehzor tried to suggest to make arcade a thing. Maybe because mostly of her suggestions envolves missions disappearing on some way. I like the missions and don't want that it disappear, like what happens with arcade, unknown for so many newbies. But if OOO really want that us explore the game, I have no problem with restricting the missions, since it doesn't disappear, somehow.
But, anyway, I think I'll look on a few Fehzor's threads. Probably i didn't see all of her threads.

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 19:20

Fehzor

Regarding the actual OP

If anything, SEGA needs to just tame the rarity situation into providing players with the correct setup of orbs etcetera constantly like they originally acted like they were intending to do, which does in fact include allowing players to finish gear without delving to depth 27/28 and forcefully encountering arenas there. But beyond that, the orbs don't drop correctly. Players want to progress, and this causes backtracking for orbs

The very easy fix (without changing anything major) to make players craft more gear would be to make radiants drop at a decent rate, and make orbs drop outside of their stratums; i.e. you could find non-eternal orbs in T3, semi-rarely.

Regarding the "evil" mission system

The mission system is not the big bad here and I certainly don't want them to go away forever. If people want to play Firestorm Citadel, let them. They'd just go to the arcade, run past 5 levels, and then invite their friends to do the levels anyway... I do think, that the arcade could be given some unique rewards to at least interest the masses as they near the end of the game however.

My thought on the big issue with the game right now

The real problem is that the game is not what it needs to be given the circumstances. When it came out, it emphasized the very very novel concept of building the world using minerals, and working together with other players and that was a large part of what made it so cool. No other games have you build levels to explore a world with other players like that, and very few other games have anywhere near as many randomly generated elements as Spiral Knights does. These were like the icing on the delicious gameplay cake that Spiral Knights was, but they were very very much needed icing, when comparing the game to every other hack and slash MMO that lacked such icing.

Instead, we got the mission system, which has sense grown and completely removed the entire core of why Spiral Knights was such a novel concept worth looking into. It isn't like that potential is lost though.... they just have to actually have some faith in their project once again, and develop their original idea, because people really really liked that original idea.

This is why I hold that the best course of action, post Herex/gunner update development at least, would be to implement a level editor and utilize the Steam Workshop. Even if it took them two entire years of development, it would be more worth it than the core, Herex, guns, tortodrones, apocreans, everything... it would be revolutionary. None of those things are revolutionary. Level editor + MMORPG is.

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 19:59

Trats-Romra

@Fehzor
The mission system is not the big bad here
I'm not saying that missions are entirely bad. They gave a reason of existence and lore to the game and are fun. Mission system isn't bad to players, it is bad to OOO on design level. While OOO want that us go like this, most part of newbies goes like this. OOO want people to explore, before advancing, but the sense of progress that missions cause make players want to advance. I'm more pointing out to OOO and saying "You are doing a thing wrong" than shouting to players "Hey! See? They didn't make the game as we would like!".

With all emphasize on exploration, by part of OOO, it leads me to think that they want exploration before progress. That's because I think that mission needs restriction if they want it. But, unfortunately, I forget to say that restriction mission would require a increasing on drop of orbs and fire crystals, to not limit the amassing of a great arsenal, a think that OOO pursue. Maybe not this, but it could be a beginning.

But, if OOO do want progress before exploration, my thread is pointless.

My thought on the big issue with the game right now
Yeah, I agree about the level editor. It would be a great addition to game and make it a lot interesting, because you can create content to play, what means that infinite content is more possible and more simple to accomplish, what is very nice.

Tue, 10/14/2014 - 21:29

Fehzor

Oh, I see what you're saying. I thought of a pretty neat solution to that a while ago too lol- http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/95121

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 03:48

Vohtarak-Forum

im vohtarak, call me by that name

I think a way to prevent mission farming is to make it so that once you beat it you cant redo it (not OCH, that requires needing to do it multiple times)
that would make people go to the arcade in search of loot (aside from OCH)
or maybe (when someone gets the DLC) have a seerus gate only open to people with the DLC

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 06:24

Keepscaite

The easiest ways to get

The easiest ways to get newbies to experiment? Randomize mission rewards.

Instead of giving them specific recipes/equipment from the Cobalt line, randomize it. Example, High Temperature Hostages will give 2 of any random 4 star weapon recipe when you complete it. This works the same for armor and shields.

Also, it needs mentioning that a new player almost never wants to explore. They just want to reach the big leagues as fast as possible. The only REAL way to get them to explore is by giving them the incentive to do so.
...Here's a fun idea.

Make a system where any player can create a level. However, they're not allowed to do it alone. They're only allowed to decide one aspect of a level. A total of 50-100 players are required to complete one t1 level. A total of 100-250 for any t2 level, and a total of over 250 players for any t3 level.

For every person who partakes in the creation of a level, they get 100 energy. HOWEVER, a single character is only allowed to take part in a level design once every two weeks.

Once a level has been completed, a total of 20 levels for every tier is used in the Arcade. The rest gets put into storage.

A new batch of 50 levels are chosen from storage every two weeks (to coincide with when a player is allowed to partake in level creation again).

Now this is the best part,

Whenever any player encounters a new level for the first time, they get an orb of alchemy. A 75% chance for a flawed orb and 25% chance for a simple orb in t1. A 60% chance for a simple orb, 30% chance for advance orb, and 10% chance for elite orb in t2. A 70% chance for elite orb and 30% chance for eternal orb in t3.

There we go. A system that encourages everybody to create, explore, and experiment while at the same time, is completely random but gives everyone a fair chance at success.

MINOR EDIT: Also, give battle sprites more things to do. Make it so that they have an AI that lets them move independently and use basic attacks, only using their special skills when we trigger them of course. Also, let's not forget to add a green and blue battle sprite to balance everything out!

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 07:01

Fehzor

A lot of serious considerations were put into battle sprites when they were made... It is important to remember how much stronger they have already made the knight compared to just not having them.

Your level editor is OK. I still favor independent creation and a voting system though.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 08:26

Keepscaite

@Fehzor

Of course, no matter how you look at it, most people would prefer independent creation. But I seriously doubt the devs would allow that. Something like independent creation has a huge chance of back-firing. SK could (possibly) be flooded by dozens of ridiculous levels that are borderline unplayable, there is no way OOO is willing to take that risk.

As for voting system, I have no idea what you mean. I've only been playing for less than a month give or take.

I suppose Battle Sprites are good enough as is. But we still need a green and a blue one.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 08:57

#10

Fehzor

Vote system = players vote levels in based on feeck. Removes ridiculous levels and adds levels appropriately.

How hard was it? Quality? Length? Rewards needed?

Or was it just a massive troll mess?

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 09:00

#11

Keepscaite

@Fehzor

Oh, I see. Yes, a voting system like that could work. It's a good idea actually.

Though, I'm a little more partial towards my own idea though. Because, in my opinion, the kind of random chaos of a multiplayer level creator better suits the Clockwork's theme.

Btw, I should revise something in my earlier post. Participation should be rewarded with 10 energy instead of 100. Such a high amount could drive OOO bankrupt as well as crash the energy market.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 12:12

#12

Fangel

I swear I thought I was in the suggestions forum

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Incoming wall of text
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A level editor is something we do really need. Honestly I think the best way is pretty much the player can piece together level bits, and the more they create "passable" levels, the more tools they get. For example, in a clockworks tunnel, the player would get X amount rooms to have. In these passages, they can add 1 danger room, up to 3 treasure-box rooms, and must have minimum of X paths.

If the level is submitted and players vote up highly on it, a Game Master will play through the level in an open party. If the level is fair, then it is accepted into the clockworks rotation.

After having their first level be accepted, players could start customizing other levels. They would get the pallet for a wolver den and lichenous lair. They would gain access to the poison status. Then have to make another level.

After having 3 levels in total passed through a GM, players would gain access to deconstruction zones and machine shops (like from the prestige mission), and the fire status. They can now place scenario rooms.

After having 5 levels in total passed through a GM, players would gain access to graveyards and devilish drudgeries, and the freeze status.

After having 10 levels in total passed through a GM, players would gain access to predetermined levels, such as scarlet fortress and concrete jungles, and compounds. They would also gain access to mob placement, and the shock status. Players can also place up to 5 treasure box locations in their levels now.

After having 20 levels in total passed through a GM, players would gain access to boss depths, candlestick keeps, and puzzle mechanics. Puzzle mechanics include: Monster gates, switches/gates, buttons, and pressured buttons + statues.

After having 50 levels in total passed through a GM (Big number, I know!), players gain the ability to design rooms using tilesets. Each floor piece is a tile, and players start by making clockwork tunnel sets.

After having 60 levels in total passed through a GM, players gain the ability to use all level except boss tilesets, not just clockwork tunnel-styled.

After having 100 levels in total passed through a GM, players can place treasure boxes where they please, make multi-layer levels, and gain access to boss level tilesets. This means that players can have levels that expand across multiple depths, much like dark cities or concrete jungles, or even make their own boss-themed levels!

There can be other, long-term rewards for doing this too. An artifact is given to players who reach 100 levels. An achievement is added for making 3 and 10 custom levels. Maybe we could even give the player access to really cool things, like event monsters later on! This way, players could make a level for the event, then see it the next time the event rolls around... Or even make a boss stratum where players are constantly assaulted by black kats! (They wouldn't drop pages/books though)

I would say at 250 levels, players gain access to shadow lair levels/depths/themes (or multistatus themes!) including the new curse status, 500 for black kat assets, 750 for apocrean levels, and 1000 for tortodrone level designs/assets.

But Fangel! Players will never be able to make 1000 levels!
The point isn't to make Tortodrones impossible, but instead make them a very far-off goal. I know I would get devious with having Black Kats attacking players while a Tortodrone wakes, but first I need to gain the right to be devious like that. With players submitting levels, we could eventually add another arcade gate called the "community" gate. Bosses in that gate would be devised by the players (only one boss stratum every rotation), and strata and themes could still be randomly chosen... Only the levels will be handpicked from community levels that passed. For example, with everyone submitting their first level, the community gate would be FULL of interesting clockwork tunnels. By the next rotation, there might be a few wolver dens, and after a week we might start having shock themed concrete jungles.

After a year or so has passed, the community gate will be varied and fun... And unique levels will start popping up too! Since every level is sent through Three Rings, it has an essence of quality control. They can also advertise this bit, as creating your own custom levels in an MMO is almost unheard of. Players will flock back to have a go at the system, and see if they can advance.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 12:25

#13

Ewbte

Fangel, excuse me, how your

Fangel, excuse me, how your idea comes with SK world? Knights are making clockworks? Seriously?

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 12:23

#14

Ironclaw-Mender

"Fangel, excuse me, how your idea comes with SK world? Knights are making clockworks? Seriously?"

Well, if Gremlins can do it...

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 12:29

#15

Ewbte

Check game history and main

Check game history and main idea. Oh whatever everything already in the big.. The game is far far from what Nick was talking about years ago.
Never mind, keep think in that way guys, this game is for you now.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 12:54

#16

Fehzor

Naturally, some levels could be created by larger numbers of people.

As for Fangel- Milestones like that sound like a serious damper on creativity, as well as hard to implement. Rather, all we need is a means of testing and rating maps inside of the game-- the map creator already exists outside of the game. We actually have access to it, even... just no documentation, and no means of testing levels.

Having a GM play through levels prior to having them implemented sounds like a good safety net prior to having the whole system work on its own. I don't know how popular map making would really be, so it may prove too much or too little to have such checks. I would suspect however, that only a niche community of players would actually use the feature regularly, and that those who do so would produce mostly "good" maps, which, once free of bugs and fully tested, could easily be implemented into the actual game regardless of their payout.

Is the payout absurd for the difficulty? Treasure vault it. Is the payout per difficulty next to nothing? Put it in as a graveyard. High payout AND difficulty? Goes near the core. Low payout and difficulty? Goes in T1. The "big challenge" is quite literally just getting these things to work correctly, and implementing + advertising the system.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 13:11

#17

Dahall

Since you all keep suggesting

Since you all keep suggesting ideas on the 'General' section, I'll add a small suggestion myself.

After finishing a level in arcade, the next level should have a +1% to rare loot drop. This will encourage many players to journey to FSC from depth 1.

P.S. A strange confession

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 13:06

#18

Ironclaw-Mender

"P.S. A strange confession"

dude
dude no
dude
please
please no

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 14:05

#19

Fangel

If you wanted lore I can give it to you

Spiral Knights lore is largely up to Three Rings. Many choices after battle sprites have not been explained via lore, especially the disappearance of mist energy and mineral deposit stations.

The way I can see it is that knights have gained Blueprints for construction in the clockworks. Gremlins follow these instructions, and thus by infiltration through operations ZAP and THWACK, knights are placing these modified blueprints in the hands of gremlins. Gremlins then attempt to build these structures, or share the prints with whatever force is dragging in the levels of the clockworks.

And as for the damper on creativity... I know it is. However, it's a progressional system that fits in more with what Three Rings has going for them. It also offers a time sink for players, and only those who build levels that are legitimately playable and fun will go forwards.
This also allows for tools to be slowly accessible. I tried to make players get a lot of up front in that they get all the basic tools at the beginning, but become more and more of a designer as things go on. If we can't create a basic level fairly, we shouldn't be trusted with all the advanced tools. And those who have access to those tools both know how to use them and are worthy of using them.

End game is boring because there's nothing to progress in. What players can do is run the clockworks for crowns, farm bosses for crowns, or play an unfair PvP minigame and spend all their crowns trying to get something good. If we added a level editor that is available to everyone from the get-go (And maybe only give you access to levels of your rank. Apprentices shouldn't be making compound levels), it shows players what they can do, and still has progression in the end game. Having various "ranks" makes players view the levels not only as a player, but as a designer. Sure, a clockworks tunnel level isn't the most fun thing to play... But if players don't know what to do and what not to do, they won't make the best of levels.

Making levels is a time investment... A resource that many players in Spiral Knights have too much of. We can have a crown fee be instated into the levels for things, but I'd rather they be completely free, except for maybe a submission fee.

Wed, 10/15/2014 - 18:43

#20

Trats-Romra

Wow! A lot of replies!

But I can't reply any response right now. I have to study to a test. I'll take some time later to answers all these replies.

Thu, 10/16/2014 - 20:20

#21

Trats-Romra

Ah, got some time to answers.
Now, let's see...

@Fehzor #5
Hum... Yeah, it's a good idea but need some tweaking, right? I tried to understand the discussion, but I didn't get what you determined there. Do you play the arcade and missions begin to appear or they are RNG based, like says the OP of your thread? Maybe I'll post there, but it's discussion for another day.

@Vohtarak
The problem that I'm pointing here isn't that newbies get on arcade soon, arcade just helps on its solution, but not the total solution. OOO want that people explore and experiment. A newbie can pretty much stop grinding on mission and grind on arcade, focusing on specific set, even if it isn't the best place for it. But the same problem will persist: no exploration and experimentation, what OOO believes that is the most important part of SK experience. Again, I'm not intend to point out what players really want, but what OOO designed to the game. I trying to point out a error of design.

@Keepscaite
Randomize mission rewards? I don't know...
I think that is better that the gamer choose the gear he want to experiment first. For example, supposing that I'm newbie that love slow weapons. So I get a randomized mission reward and I receive... A flourish recipe??? "I like slow weapons, not fast weapons" and the newbie rage, rage and rage. Now using the example you gave: Imagine that I have a Chroma Suit and it's my unique 3* piece of gear. So I complete High Temperature Hostages and get a 4* randomized recipe. And it's a... Ash Tail Coat recipe?!?! "But I haven't a Wolver Coat yet!" and the player rages, rages and rages. That's why I think that letting the player choose what he want is better. Maybe a new player could receive 5 copouns to buy 2* gear recipes. So he/she can begin his/her experimetation the way he/she would like most.
I know that players want to progress, but OOO need to make them change their to path exploration and experimetation, so OOO team can accomplish what they wish for the game.
Now, adding more things to my ideas, OOO should make players be rewarded for exploring and experimenting. The achievement could be way to do it. For example, "Accomplished two-star smith? So you got a random 2* gear! Accomplished Expert Hatter? You got a random acessory to head!" On this way, players are encouraged to amass a arsenal, because they are being rewarded for that. Again, maybe it isn't the better idea, but in order to stimulate players to experiment, they need to be rewarded for that. On the current system, people are rewarded for doing missions. To people experiment and explore more (talking about my idea), the game needs to show clearly that they accomplished a achievement and they got a prize for it.

tl;dr Players should be rewarded for exploring and experimentation. Randomized rewards won't help on my vision.

About the level editor, I think it could be good, but certainly interesting. Ah, instead of 10 energy, you could give 20. Not so high, not so low.

@Fangel
Your level editor is pretty good too, but I agree with Fehzor that would be better if it isn't needed of GMs testing it.

@Level editor idea
Maybe could we design on this way?:
Keepscaite's Comunnity level editor + Fangel's lore and growth of the pallet accordingly to number of levels made + Community gate + Testing and rating(Fehzor's idea) + Some way to randomize and organize these community and individual created levels(Fehzor's example) = Level Editor Update?

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I think that OOO is making a design error