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Phantom Improvements Side Discussion

2 replies [Last post]
Thu, 11/13/2014 - 12:26
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

This is a thread aimed at not sidetracking someone elses thread with our off topic ranting about how compounds is easy/hard.

Start of discussion: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/106074#comment-959681

Anyone can follow along if they really want to.
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Brandishes get ruined by gravestones, bombs have no good elemental choice, and bullets get lost in the masses of zombies.

People need to get over the fact that there can and should be parts of the game that aren't solved by the acheron+combuster combo, especially when their situation can easily be solved with a third brandish that does effect phantoms, glacius. These are already exceptionally useful weapons that ramp up in damage very quickly due to the nature of split damage, and there is really no reason for them to bypass the gravestones and become even stronger. Honestly, and especially because of the fact that you can just aim your brandish charges down the isle of graves as opposed to having it do nothing, I don't think that it's such a problem.

Bombers have one very good resource in the haze bombs in this situation- neutral status enemies that are weak to fire and shock litter the floor, and phantoms are weak to the freeze and stun statuses, while zombies are immune to neither. Since every good bomber by this point in the game probably has access to at least the 4* shivermist buster in their quest to conquer FSC, a support loadout consisting of nothing but 2-4 of the appropriate haze bombs would easily allow players to deal with most numbers of phantoms while still hitting the zombies for good damage. Dark briar barrage and the other blast bombs are good resources for bombers that want to deal tangible damage. The deadly crystal bomb WOULD BE incredibly useful as well, if it could hit enemies without doing nothing after the first couple of hits.

I'm not certain why bullets getting lost in the zombies is a bad thing however. Typically, I want my bullets to get lost in the zombies. If I'm trying to get hits in on the phantom, there is nothing stopping me from either clearing the zombies out first or backing up slightly to take on all of the zombies.

why not put it in certain missions?

Because then it becomes like all of the other mission exclusive content- something that I only see whenever I decide to go there. When do I decide to go there? I don't because I don't get anything worthwhile from it that I wouldn't get more of elsewhere. I'd never voluntarily go to a graveyard level in a mission either, unless it was for some sort of event-- that's because you're not supposed to want to go to graveyards. They're intended to be poor levels to balance out treasure vaults.

something that empties your party when you get there

I mean, people can do whatever they want, but if they ditch out on compounds they're not going to get to go on in the run. They're effectively throwing so that they can join to some place else... but what if there was a guaranteed arena after the compounds or graveyard? What if there was one at D28 that they were going to? That's the motivation for going on. Of course, compounds is NOT a level designed to make people feel bad, and should give them boxes or have a danger room chance or do something useful because right now it's a relatively unpleasant level with no real payout.

remove their curse status

Curse is seriously the joke status of Spiral Knights, and the only reason people think otherwise is because the game puts it out there as some world shattering effect that means instant death to anyone that comes within a 5 mile radius of it.. but it just isn't the case.

The curse status can be dodged easily by anyone with resistance. How much resistance? 5 points of resistance, or no points of resistance and a third weapon slot. If you know, and the player always knows, that curse is going to be a problem, then you can plan ahead and get out of being cursed for too long.

By this point in the game, I would expect the player to have enough 4* armor to resist all of the things they need to resist, and a large number of weapons to boot. Say, 3-4 sets of 4* armor and 5-6 4* weapons. If people are unwilling to craft and use these things, despite being forcefully handed crafting materials and told that they should craft more than one set, then that's on them. There's not much more we can do for them.

Finally, even if they don't have the ability to get +5 curse resistance or a weapon slot, they can wait. For 43 seconds, they can goof off with their one free vial slot. That's all they have to do. Run around and mess with fire pots and vials, distract stuff for their team.

Thu, 11/13/2014 - 13:18
#1
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
current graveyards are nice

Brandishes get ruined by gravestones, bombs have no good elemental choice, and bullets get lost in the masses of zombies.

Not all players know how to turn off AT (not in the tutorials mind you) so brandish and alchemer charges suffer for a large amount of players.

DBB, Haze bombs, and even the Deadly crystal bomb are good choices but only the DBB is a good reliable damage dealer to Phantoms.

If you want to gun down that Phantom you have to clear a few zombies, in large parties you may have to end up with 4 phantoms dodging about and spitting curse bullets everywhere.

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why not put it in certain missions?

People run missions they like over and over because they enjoy it, that is part of the game. I actually enjoy running the first floor of Occurrence at Owlite Keep with my spike shower and bomber set, I get a nice amount of CR and heat, all the enemies can be beat with one weapon (and I have a Seraphynx for any rock jellies that pop up). The point is I'm playing an old mission because I'm having fun.

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Something that empties your party when you get there.

The current graveyards are actually rather fun (and fair), if you start bumping up the number of Phantoms then you will get complaints.

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Remove their curse status.

With the Prevalence of BK sets, Chaos sets, Skolver/Snarby sets it's no wonder most players avoid levels with Curse.

There are only a few 5star items (counting pieces not sets) that resist curse

4 are Shadow Lair rewards (UFSC rewards that is)
4 offer no undead bonus (Valkyrie and Divine sets)
and 1 has no Helm (Radiant Silvermail)

And as for shields we don't have anything that naturally resists Curse

Thu, 11/13/2014 - 17:04
#2
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

This is the end of the game though, people should be comfortable with their controls and understand autotarget lol.

Part of being a gunner is being able to hit stuff. If you cannot hit stuff, you cannot win. I was on a graveyard a day or so ago, and I was gunning down phantoms like crazy. Yes, they have a single dodge. You can very easily just shoot them anyway by luring them towards you while walking backwards, then shoot. I used Hail Driver against them. I froze them, and then charge shotted them to death, and it worked out fantastically.

As for bombs, you forgot about Nitronome. It works too.

I'd also expect people to have branched out by now. Instead of refusing to touch anything but just handguns, bombs, or swords, I would expect them to have say, a couple of guns, bombs, swords.. really, they should have what it takes to fight this by the time they get there. If they haven't figured out that there are no real classes in the game and are suffering because of it, then that's also their fault. If they really are a sword master, then they'll have a solution for this.

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I always feel like I'm wasting time whenever I do that. Like, for a while I farmed Arkus. There was no reason for this. It gave poor loot, and there wasn't much gain at all in doing this thing. The whole time I wanted to go down after beating him, and have some sort of actual loot for doing it, which is what I'm asking for. A permanent improvement every time I go to the graveyard. Not just whenever I feel like I need to force it, especially because I'd never see or get to fight the 20 trojans unless I somehow got people to join me and actively volunteer for that. Do you know how many people came with me to farm Arkus? Sometimes Soral and Zeddy, because I tricked them into it.

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Well that would be why no one uses these curse resistant sets- because curse isn't that large of a threat. Have you ever had major issues with curse? What about fire/shock?

most players avoid levels with Curse.

On the contrary, I've never seen anyone actively avoid fighting on a graveyard because of the curse status. Similarly, I've never heard of anyone avoiding legion of almire because of its curse. Are there any other freely accessible levels with curse that I'm missing?

Do you actively avoid going to graveyards out of fear of being cursed? If you're having curse problems I feel bad for you son. I've got 99 problems but phantoms ain't one.

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