Yh I see a problem with this after replying to the Casino thread. Will a POW camp be allowed in a 13+ game?

A mission where the motive is to torture (both physical and emotional torture) and kill unarmed enemies purely for the sake of information.
Even without blood and guts I think the age rating would have to be increased (and OOO don't want to limit their players).

totally not true. we attack gremlins if they provoke us, or if they plan to destroy us with giant gun puppies. We don't go around killing them for no reason. We've allied ourselves with the gremlins of emberlight, haven't we?
Now, if we are attacked, that is justification to eliminate the THREAT. it is not justification to torture them and kill them while they no longer pose a threat (seeing as they were stripped of their weapons)

Also, we see in missions that knights are not killed nor stripped of gear when captured by gremlins. when you release them from cages in rescue missions, they are very much alive, and they have weapons that they use to fight other monsters, so. theres that

Also, we see in missions that knights are not killed nor stripped of gear when captured by gremlins.
I take it you haven't played through Operation: Crimson Hammer. Feron explicitly states that "many knights have lost their lives today", or something to that extent. Captured knights can give up information, and gremlins want that much. But in the actual "war" with the gremlins, lives on both sides are obviously lost.

This is exactly the sort of moral issue Fehzor is bringing up. If you feel bad killing the "defenseless gremlins", then take a look at menders, who have suddenly forgotten how to smack us with their wands, and love puppies we kill while they're just trying to help us.
The Spiral Order is at war with the Crimson Order, and I'd love more levels to showcase that. A short level in which you are torturing a gremlin isn't a level really worth playing - there's nothing really all that "fun" about it. There's no challenge or anything engaging to the player, even before involving morals and stuff. If you wanted such a thing in levels, make it a scenario room instead of an entire level. Having a short room with a few extra crowns (via gremlins instead of boxes) is fine and doesn't make another potential compound-tier payout level. Besides, why would the Spiral Order be giving us prizes for killing gremlins they've captured? Especially if they're defenseless, any knight in the order could take them out, or banish them to emberlight.
A prison break level would be like any other level. It's why I suggested it, because it's realistic in terms of design of the game and it could add an interesting dynamic (fiends + gremlins? Prepare for a world of hurt). At the same time it adds new "content" to the game. We know that gremlins and fiends interact with each other (I remember reading somewhere on the wiki that gremlins give fiends all their paperwork/busywork), so I'd be great to see that in action. A prison break would also be its own unique level, especially since you could potentially free non-knight things who could potentially fight alongside you. Lots of game design options here!

OMG. fangel, you're missing the point. yeah, sure, knights die fighting gremlins, but there is not any indication that they are tortured. the only indication of torture in the game is by the devilites... with... p-paperwork! (shudder) in a white collar captives i think. sure, there are casualties of war on both sides, but no torture. no murder of the defenseless. also, might i add that gremlins are extremely resourceful, and clever, and they know a lot more about cradle then we do. I think any prison we put them in could probably be broken out of, or easily broken into by an outside gremlin (like what happened to the lab when herex stole the artifact. GAAH. I'm veering off track.

Ok, regardless, this is a disgusting concept, and I strongly disapprove of it.

-1

It's a game and it's not glorifying war. I'm honestly more okay with a game showcasing how terrible a war is than glorifying it with explosions and thrills. War is not an amusement park.

From a game design standpoint, the suggestion doesn't have much ground going for it. The levels would be short and not very fun. The bomb doesn't even act like a bomb really.

You're trying to personify a made-up creature in a fantasy video game. Gremlins are enemies, much like fiends and slimes are enemies.
I do agree that torture of any sort (other than through humorous means, such as with the copious amounts of paperwork fiends force knights to do) does not really fit in too well with the theme of the game, but I like to take every suggestion that is at least somewhat thought out seriously and look at the suggestion objectively instead of emotionally. What is suggested isn't very fun, especially since all the "torture" is is basically "smack this enemy with this weapon except you don't have to shield ever", which takes away from what this game is - a cutesy dungeon crawler.

Intriguing bomb. Sort of like an acid thing or whatever, in the sense that it leaves behind a liquid trail that constantly damages. Run around in circles while creating a trail behind you that the monsters keep walking on and taking damage from, fun stuff.

Could be used to interesting effect. Especially in Lockdown. How long does the Knocker last before turning into a puddle? How long does the liquid itself last? Any way to control where the Knocker moves? Cause this could lead to some unique defense strategies if the stuff lasts long enough.

@ Blazeshot "i worry about you fehzor. i hope you don't have any small pets." - Don't worry. Had and have aren't the same thing. O,O
"I think any prison we put them in could probably be broken out of, or easily broken into by an outside gremlin (like what happened to the lab when herex stole the artifact. " - It would do more than start them on a rescue mission. The knights would be declaring all out war with the Gremlins (and their companions). As cool as this sounds and all, if the entire Gremlin army attacked I don't think it would be a very fair battle.

@Fehzor "Mewkats and love puppies don't fight us. In fact, we kill the love puppies and mewkats for their rare drops because we care more about getting a small bonus item than about their lives." - You suggested killing for torture. The defenceless part isn't the deranged part of this. :|

@Fangel "What is suggested isn't very fun, especially since all the "torture" is is basically "smack this enemy with this weapon except you don't have to shield ever", which takes away from what this game is - a cutesy dungeon crawler." - Your reply was well thought through. There needs to be a challenge to the mission or there's no point. The only fully challenge-less mission (missions being CW missions, not "Monstrous Research" and stuffs) is a rare mission and even then it technically has monsters that fight back.

I'd much prefer a mission where the player is a POW and has to escape.

i stand to the point that torture does not fit into a cutesy dungeon game. there is no direct indication that gremlins are torturing us, nor are we torturing them. I'd like to keep it that way.

I kinda like chaos-mist's idea tho

Spiral Knights' cutesy dungeon crawler could have dark themes behind it. Look at The Binding of Isaac. The game's introductory story is "Isaac's mother is trying to kill him because her god told her he is filled with sin", and as you go through the game you become deranged and evil yourself. That game itself is what I would call a cutesy rouge-like because of the art style being cute.

However, in Spiral Knights, a POW camp where you fight against a large number of defenseless enemies (not having them fight back takes half of the game away - the dodging and shielding parts. Also makes most of armor functions useless) and get a fair amount of rewards for doing so is not balanced or really fun. Treasure Vaults are great because you never know when you'll get one and they don't really reward that much other than rarities... And there are some enemies there and they do attack. Graveyards aren't too shabby in payout, but in terms of rarities they aren't great.
It sounds like the POW camp suggested doesn't have the danger bits involved to make the gameplay more like the other gameplay. If you want it to be a story element, go for it. Make it a mission with cutscenes. Don't make it an arcade generation or a normal level.

One way to make this interesting would be if gremlins broke into a POW camp we had, and all the prisoners were escaping. You have to attack the gremlins that are escaping before they get their hands on a vast weaponry stache at the other side of the map. Reskinned mortafires, as you said, that just hightail for the weapons and start fighting you. There's incentive to take them out before they get the weapons because they'll start dropping missiles all over the place, and we could also show the Spiral Order in a more negative light - which seems to be what the point of this suggestion is in the first place.

I'm pretty much against the whole "WE'RE the bad ones!" idea as it's sort of cliche unless we have something where we break up the exact same thing later. If we torture gremlins, we should have a mission where we bust into an area and save knights from being tortured. This turns both sides into a morally grey area, and more accurately portrays what wars come to. Right now we're portrayed as heroes and villains. Instead of both being villains, I'd like to see two races that both do good and both do evil. We've never seen gremlins really doing good unless you count fixing/breaking the clockworks.

Your reasoning is pretty good, but what could the gremlins be doing that's good? It would be hard to implement the Gremlin's good side without having one of the following 3 really cliche missions;
1. You infiltrate the gremlin ranks by pretending to be a gremlin (I never said these were good missions).
2. You see the Order as evil and switch sides (so cliche...)
3. You have a dream where you're a gremlin (...)

I personally hate all those ideas. So what idea would you have to show things from a Gremlin's point of view?

The other idea being a full Gremlin-mode campaign line but that'd take the developers AGES.

A lot of people are saying that this idea is too dark, and that dark "elements" are not in this game(or are implying it). Think about Apocrea. You get grabbed by tentacles and get taken to a lower a lower floor, then a vast graveyard(s) teeming with scarabs that are trying to eat you, and a Harvester that is trying to harvest your soul. At the end, you even find a dead knight. Not only that, but think back to the beginning of the game: after stealing the item(I forgot what it's called), Razwog tries to blow-up the entire facility with you in it. That can be considered torturous. Also, look at Arkus. After defeating him, if you go over to him and interact with him, it will tell you that Arkus is dead(not directly, but it is strongly implied). There's also the Firestorm Citadel, in which a forgotten king's soul is cursed and cannot be put to rest without your help. My point is that something as dark as this would be "normal" in a game like this, but some parts, like the gremlin crying and slaughtering his kids, may be too much.

Also, instead of a camp, it should be more of a prison-like dome. Not only that, but players shouldn't be forced to partake in this test. Instead, the player should be able to decide what they want to do, and if they refuse, the player will be considered a traitor and will no longer be considered a Spiral Knight. The knight runs and frees the gremlin. This causes a brief battle between the player and Feron to break out, and it results in Feron getting injured. Due to his good side, he spares Feron. Meanwhile, the gremlin pummels a nearby guard knight unconscious and takes his weapon, and uses it to fight his way through numerous other knights and activates a self-destruct sequence. The player leaves Feron and escapes, and is now faced with another decision: to either go alone, or side with the gremlins. Depending on what you choose, different missions will become available to you.

By siding with the gremlins, you prepare them for an assault against the Spiral Order, and you contribute to creating a core-powered machine that will destroy the Spiral Order. However, the machine ends up malfunctioning, and a mechanic informs you that it will explode and blow-up Cradle. You then prepare for evacuation, but the Spiral Order arrives and tries to stop you. At some point, you get split from the other gremlins, and as you reach the evacuation pod, Feron is seen, prepare for a final battle. You end-up severely wounding Feron, and his last words are "Why?". You then evacuate with numerous other elite gremlins and head to another planet, which opens up another story.

By not siding with anyone, you become your own team. and at some point, encounter a Morai soldier, who attacks you. After defeating the soldier, he tells you that "They are coming". As you look up, you see numerous flying machines over Cradle, gradually coming down. You then go on a stealth mission into Spiral HQ to find more information on the Morai, and after doing so, you activate the self-destruct sequence, and commence evacuation. However, Feron arrives, and after a brief battle with him, both you and Feron escape, but in different ways. You then send yourself on various missions to train yourself, and occasionally encounter Morai soldiers. After some missions, the Morai finally lands, and a 3-way war between the gremlins, Spiral Order, and Morai break out. Eventually, you end-up siding with the Morai and build a machine powered by the Core(core-powered). However, it ends up malfunctioning, and the same events as the "siding with gremlins" occur, but with the Morai. Surprisingly, this is all a build-off of your 3rd Idea, but I may end-up making this it's own suggestion at some point.

P.S. The thread has been made, and it contains more information than this post.

We don't have to directly encounter gremlins doing "good things". They don't necessarily have to be "good to us" sort of things, because that again puts the Spiral Order in the "we're the good guys!" label. Perhaps we come across a gremlin feeding a group of wolvers. Upon seeing us, all the wolvers attack and the gremlin grabs a weapon to fight as well. It's a very brief "moment of kindness" from a gremlin to a wolver, and could have similar things in other levels too - such as gremlins negotiating with pit bosses, or gremlins fixing up a lichenous lair where the meteorite crashed. All monster families are friendly towards each other for some reason, and it could be argued that gremlins are the original "peacemakers" of Cradle. It would be pretty neat if we could see more gremlin teams around the clockworks in general, much like knight teams.

@Fangel:

Nice idea fangel. I had this idea a while ago where we could emphasize monster interaction, thought the thread did not turn out so well, i feel it matches our idea. Here is a link:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/63597

I also had this great idea which i think did not get touched as much as i wished:

http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/67239

Of course i had so many more and many many more ideas that i posted which ended only after 3 commentators looked the ideas. So really, i'm kinda depressed about the forums ability to participate and respond to posters who put down their ideas and discuss its good points and bad points. Oh well, until i quit sk, i don't think i will stop coming to the forums mainly the suggestion forums though.

Ok. Why would you want to bring torture into the game? What's the point?

@Chaos-Mist

"Maybe someone has a lot of anger built up and they're not Psychopathic enough to kill people without feeling the guilt...so instead they'll kill Gremlins"

But isn't that what first person shooter games are for?

I guess my point is that I like Spiral Knights because it's less serious, its adorable, and it's actually a bit silly in some cases. I just don't want this new level to take that away from the game for me, and trust me, it will if it's put into the game.

I do think you're bomb idea is cool though.