So I would like someone to explain me both side of the thing. In a respectful manner if that's a thing.
As a PvE guy, what's the deal with AT?
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 10:32
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 12:55
#2
~
People need an excuse to lose because of our human egoism. The people that will deny this statement are doing the same thing - protecting their "self-image," aka their ego.
It's a pointless argument on both sides, it's better to just ignore it, "ignorance is strength."
/Ignoring problems always makes them go away. In the same way people ignore the fact that they got outplayed by putting the blame on AT. The problem won't hurt them as much and it'll go away.
Then again, that's just my view on things. Psychology vs Irrationality.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 13:05
#3
@van-winkle
I was in the process of making a big post but I'd rather just say that every time I read your posts I get more and more ebola into my life.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 13:28
#4
hi
AT is to pro for so called pros to handle.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 13:53
#5
AT is feature that redirects your aim when you miss. Something like that shouldnt be in a PvP where the main point is hit and doge.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 15:26
#6
^
conti is right. the fact that they allow the game to aim for you is ridiculous. it makes sense for players who are younger and need it to aim at monsters in clockworks but it makes pvp too unbalanced.
call of duty doesn't auto-aim your gun sights does it? and people who use "aimbot" in call of duty are considered hackers. the only difference here is that AT was put in the game by developers.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 17:09
#7
As for a more serious response, I recommend viewing my earlier linked research thread to learn a bit about the mechanics. The most notable pro of using AT is that it essentially - thanks to the server side nature of it - gives swords with less than a 90 degree arc a 90 degree arc. This is a significant difference for Brandishes, which suddenly become A LOT easier to hit with. Video:
Another less significant aspect of using AT with swords is that it optimises your aim to be perfect
Demonstration of AT optimising aim in order to score a hit
Lastly, one of the most significant abuses is when using Blasters or Antiguas. Due to their fast bullets, they work quite well with AT. This leads to the ability to just stop, aim just enough to get the AT to trigger, shoot, and move again. This can be done very quickly and since AT is server side, you will get a very good ability to hit.
The common arguments pro AT are:
- AT is available to everyone and is thus more fair than stuff such as OP gear which is hard to get
- AT helps even the playing field and bridge the skill gap between players
The common arguments against AT are:
- AT removes a significant part of what being a skilled Lockdown player as it significantly reduces the need of good aim
- AT is more beneficial for low ping players than high ping players, and thus makes connection advantage more significant
Personally, I support a rework of AT that would make it more beneficial for high ping players than low ping players, as this game certainly needs a lot more lag compensation than it has today. That said, AT wouldn't necessarily be the best way to do this. As it looks right now, I believe AT does more harm than good. Just having it in the game causes a huge divide in the community where many will hate others just because of their opinion or usage of AT.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 16:17
#8
I was AT in a former life...
Different types of people:
1. People who think AT is good in principle.
2. People who think AT is bad in principle, but since its optional, it's fine as it is.
3. People who think AT is bad in principle, and should be banned to improve the game's integrity.
4a. People who think AT is fine in PvE but it totally screws up the competitive nature of PvP.
4b. People who don't care what AT is in principle, as long as nobody kills them with it.
5. Trolls.
Explanations:
1. Spiral Knights is mainly about exploration, not PvP. AT allows people to pick up the game easily and have fun instead of getting frustrated over missing monsters by a hair. Also, latency is a huge issue in Spiral Knights,and AT things playable for those with high latency.
2. Having the computer correct your errors detracts from the spirit of self-improvement. Players should work to get better at the game, and AT removes the incentive to do so. However, since players have to option to turn it off, those who truly want to challenge themselves can still do so.
3. No game should have the computer aim for you. That completely defeats the purpose of aiming. New players should treat the learning process as a challenge, not a deterrent, to continue playing. AT reduces the skill level of the entire game.
4a. In PvP, using AT destroys the competitive nature of the game. An AT user can just spam haphazardly and beat someone with more skill. This isn't right because a fair PvP lets those with more skill rise above those with less skill.
4b. Dammit, that guy killed me in Lockdown. It looked like he was using AT. I bet he wouldn't have landed that hit if his AT was off.
OMG, how did that swing land? No freaking way that hit me. It must be AT. If he didn't have AT, I would have beaten him because I definitely saw that hit coming.
5. Heh, look. It's one of those people who are hypersensitive about AT. I'm going to accuse him of AT just to mess with him.
Wow, my connection is really good today. I'm just going to equip my MSI, DMG, ASI max set and spam polaris and GF combos with AT. This will be hilarious. Let's see if I can make someone rage quit.
In a recent survey, 0% of responders associated themselves with category 4b.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 16:53
#9
@Krakob
AT is more beneficial for high ping players than low ping players
^ Must be a mistake, but it's the other way around (since your next sentence claims so).
In the end, anyone's opinion on whether or not AT matters makes no difference. The game is what it is, you can deal with it or don't play. AT is far from the only problem for laggers, but it is one people can choose to eliminate out of respect for fair play - but choose not to (same with spamming Polaris, Dark Ret, Nitronome, etc.) After all it works so well with so little effort, why should they? The problem needs to be addressed by the producers of the game.
Sat, 03/21/2015 - 17:09
#10
Yeah that was a mistake. Thanks!
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 01:29
#11
~
I'm more against AT, it'd be easier to troll people without AT in the game, people would actually get their feelings hurt if they had nothing to blame.
Lag isn't /that/ much of a problem ( maybe unless you're from Asia playing US. I'm NZ ). In my experience, it makes the game less mindless and a bit more strategic coz you need to predict and compensate extra for lag.
Who'd want to play such an easy game otherwise?
#nottrolling
#AT
#aaall
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 01:44
#12
I'm in NZ too, and that's precisely why I'm not a fan of people with better ping rage-clicking their little hearts out at me because you should do some work if you need AT to beat someone with an average of 250 ping. I can manage, but sometimes it'd be nicer if it wasn't always so strategically demanding as you say because it gets bloody tiring.
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 12:06
#13
The truth?
AT provides a non-skill based benefit to the player, much like trinket slots, UVs, weapon slots, and a better connection.
However, of all of these only AT is free and paying players always despise using or anyone else using a free gift (Ghastly Gibus anyone?).
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 12:39
#14
The truth?
A good connection is something we cant really argue about, thats outside the game. Trinket slots are so cheap, its just a minor crown sink really, its not because they cost energy to maintain that you need to use real money to get them. Weapon slots are still fairly cheap for a vanguard, but you dont really need them, and if you do use them, 1 is definitely more than enough. That leaves UVs and AT. UV's make you a bit stronger, but if you cant aim you still wont land more hits because you have UV's. If you use AT, it means you use it to get more hits in at your target, more hits on your target will provide a much larger benefit than any UV or slot ever could.
EDIT: and I agree with what van-winkle mentioned. AT will always be something ppl can blame when they lose (and for good reason). Its also bad for the community when people are always suspecting others of using AT and accusing each other, it really ruins the atmosphere in lockdown. It would be better for lockdown as well as the lockdown community if AT were removed. And at this point, the only reason i can think of as to why the developers havent done this, is because maybe its impossible to remove AT just from Lockdown, but leave it available in PvE for those who wish to use it. (But im not a programmer so I wouldnt know)
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 13:08
#15
@ Water
There are numerous things broken with SK PVP.
AT is just one of them, OOO has other things on their to-do list that are a higher priority than PVP.
Still.... something is wrong when I can go get a good high score in other PVP games (sometimes even carrying a team) but when I come to SK I always end up at the bottom. I'm a Vanguard who has already earned an Electron Vortex and a Plague needle and spent a good amount of time playing.
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 13:09
#16
I'm a programmer and it's
I'm a programmer and it's possible to remove AT just from lockdown. In fact it's so easy that it's laughable. It would even be easy to make AT latency based(make it give a bigger correction arc if you have high latency and a lesser one if you have a good connection). But this crap game can't even push out updates anymore so even the most simple of things won't be done.
Mon, 03/23/2015 - 13:33
#17
@Holy-Nightmare
Have you considered the fact that maybe all PvP games aren't that same?
Tue, 03/24/2015 - 08:51
#18
@ Leekcoco
Yeah, some games are made to be Fair for everyone and there are those that tip the scales in favor of the one who coughs up the most money
Tue, 03/24/2015 - 13:13
#19
Just going to say this here
Just going to say this here but multiple people have proven the fact that good players don't need UVs to perform good nor connection really(less players have demonstrated that but there has been one or two). Trinkets are cheap to get and any vanguard should have absolutely no trouble to get them(so are trinket slots). You don't need weapon slots either to do well.
2 Examples :
Redblades has used his alt which has full vog set, non uv'ed weapons and only trinket slots I believe. He managed to break 30k damage and carry lockdown teams with it(caps and damage wise).
Feller had ~200ms delay when he played and was one of the best players of his time.
You shouldn't be blaming the game for your lack of skill.
Tue, 03/24/2015 - 11:40
#20
^
Exactly, if you're good, you don't need anything.
For Lag : As I said before, if you lag, know your latency and compensate ( lead/predict ) extra and it made ld more fun for me.
Though I've said this multiple times before, to get to know your latency, you could always get a friend to walk in a straight line in the training room while you stand still and when they get to a certain point, aim at them and shoot. Ask them to tell you how much you were off by, coz what you see on your screen is different than what actually happens on the server ( latency ). Shoot just as they reach the point on your screen. If they tell you it's 16 squares away ( they're obviously trolling ) aim an extra 16 squares away in LD + the distance you think they're going to walk. You don't need to be that accurate and exact at first and after a few games, it'll just become a subconscious thing.
But in my opinion, you also shouldn't need to blame AT either, if you happen to die. If you're good, you should be above that, you shouldn't need to blame the game for your lack of skill.
people need an excuse to lose
Seriously though, I might write you a proper reply. Quite frankly I'd say I'm one of the least biased people when it comes to AT in this community. I've argued for both sides, so to speak, but in the end I think a proper change would be to adapt AT to latency or gear or something, not have it available to everyone.
Research thread: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/93931