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Why is SK shedding its players?

18 replies [Last post]
Fri, 05/29/2015 - 09:25
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk

Spiral Knights has become too complex for players.

I think the main culprit of the falling of Spiral Knights is accessories, the Forge, and Lockdown. 90% of players wish to obtain the highest Prestige, the most power in Lockdown, and the rarest, most expensive accessories. In order to attain such a feat, players require to log-in daily, grinding for crowns relentlessly, and, inevitably give up after a week or two of grinding.

The new Forge system is a deeply cracked system which drudges players to grind levels far more. People suggesting that Spiral Knights is longer-lasting with the new forge system are correct... However not only is levelling up more limited now, but levelling up is also unattractive to players.

In Lockdown, the ridiculous amount of money spent for Unique Variants is outrageous. The Black Kat Cowl should not be a helmet on its own, but a reskin, especially considering the fact that it's limited to yearly events.

The wall differentiating between players that are at a higher power and players that are on the average level is steep or very steep. Players must go through intensive merchanting or purchasing Energy with real-world money to obtain the money they have. The rest of the players are looking at all the new accessories and going, "I will never get any of those Auras, or those Wings, or those Haloes, or those cool Accessories...", because they never WILL. Of course, they could obtain some of the cheaper Auras, but if they want some of the greater Auras, the players will have to start climbing the very steep difference wall...

Spiral Knights was adored as a simple MMO. When Unique Variants, Accessories, Missions, unbalanced equipment (Black Kat Cowl, Acheron, Chaos Attire) and titles such as Prestige took the stage, players were overwhelmed by what they must accomplish to achieve higher authority with the community.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 09:38
#1
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Eh.

Spiral Knights has had a declining playerbase forever, however new players are constantly joining as well. Various sites, various languages, etc.

Accessories and costumes are cosmetic, and most players won't quit over cosmetics unless that's the reason they're playing. You wouldn't stop playing TF2 because you can't get a hat drop, you'd stop because it isn't fun to you. Similarly, if you hit a grindwall, you can either stop or grind. Such is life in MMO.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 09:40
#2
The-Composer's picture
The-Composer
For me, my game continues to

For me, my game continues to crash randomly when I am trying to play, and it just gets more and more infuriating, seeing as there has been no fix that has worked. Updated java and my graphics drivers, nothing. I've heard its happened to a good number of people so I imagine that a few people have quit because of it.

Other than that, my favorite part of playing has been making more gear, and Radiants have slowed that down to a crawl. And Lockdown is garbage, its not the best players that do the most, its the one with the most uvs. Its made Lockdown more and more exclusive as time goes on.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 09:45
#3
Bopp's picture
Bopp
response

You raise some valid points, but these subjects have been discussed in many threads already, so I'll just hit some high points.

For the game to survive, some players must spend money. For them to spend money, they must get something for their money. In a perfect world, that something would not affect the game play, but rather would be an extra treat for pure personal entertainment. In this way accessories are an incredibly perfect way to fund the game. Paying players get fancy costumes, and non-paying players can ignore them.

On the other hand, paying players also buy fancy unique variants, which do affect game play. And the equipment is of course grossly unbalanced. So those parts of your post make sense to me.

Finally, there has been constant complaining about the Forge since it was introduced. 2-, 3-, and 4-star fire crystals are not hard to get. 5-star fire crystals are very hard to get, although the new Dreams and Nightmares mission helps a bit. My suggestion to Three Rings is to increase the starting damage of 5-star weapons, so that they are clear upgrades from 4-star weapons. Then players could start to view heating as a long, gradual process, rather than something that must happen immediately.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 10:49
#4
Finale-Flare's picture
Finale-Flare
Stuff that turns people

Stuff that turns people off?

Forge, AT in lockdown, pulsars. LD too hard for most newbs, AT exists (actually witnessed someone ragequit, since they got insulted and belittled for using AT. They deserved what they got for using AT in LD, but it shows how AT divides people). Also, radiants. And farming.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 15:18
#5
Sipsy's picture
Sipsy
RantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRantRant

TL;DR. Lockdown doesn't make people leave, people make people leave. You playin SK or Dressups? Free Elevators and 5* gear.

I think the main reason is the lack of things to do, after end-game. Especially if you don't enjoy lockdown.

Lockdown's pretty much end-game content, it has little to do with players leaving. A lot of people don't even play it. After end-game, there's not much to do and there's a lot of other games out there to experience with a lot of other things to do. If you're that sensitive about AT, you probably wouldn't last a day or two with the LD community's toxicity anyway. You don't need fancy gear for lockdown, it's fun as long as you play it the way you want to play it. It's not AT, it's not pulsars, it's not the skill gap between new and old, it's not the gear that pushes people away from lockdown, it's the community.
Newer people think they need UV'S and specific gear in order to close the gap between their level and a person that's actually good. You don't. Sure, it makes it easier and faster to close that gap but you don't need it to be good. At all. You'd still need to practice footwork. You'd still need to practice aiming. You'd still need to practice juking, duping, shield cancelling, input queuing, single switching, double switching and timing. The skill cap for lockdown is a LOT higher than in PvE, that's because there are a lot of good people. And that's what makes it so fun. It's fun learning how to play, it's fun playing it, Lockdown's the reason I still log onto spiral knights. It doesn't push people away, the mechanics have kept me playing the game longer than any other game has. I was slowly getting ready to stop playing spiral knights back when the binding system and missions hit, but when Lockdown was introduced, it pulled me right back.

Accessories are highly optional. Not everyone wants to play just to have pretty lil' pixels. I'd rather spend my hard earned crowns on different weapons and pieces of gear to increase the number of things to do. I find playing spiral knights a lot more fun than playing dress-ups. And that's just me, people play for different reasons and that's absolutely fine.

I LOVE the new forge system. You get gear for FREE. No energy needed. Not to mention free elevators. The radiant shards make up for the time that would have been taken earning CE. It's kinda like, "Buy now, Pay later." You get the 5* item now but you gots to pay to get it to level 10. Bad analogies for everyone. Im done, rant finished. Tanks.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 17:09
#6
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk
"I Love the new forge

"I Love the new forge system.... FREE"

Free! that means it's better..........................................................................................................no

I would rather earn my Energy used to craft equipment than go through fire and flames getting Forge Crystals, which to say the least have broken drop rates. Even by fixing drop rates, Fire Crystals are even more expensive than the previous Energy fee used to craft equipment. 800 CE can equal to about 50 Radiant Fire Crystals!!!!! Omg so I actually have to grind them without draining all my Energy out?? "I guess. I prefer you buy them though. How many Radiant Fire Crystals do you need? 2500? Okie dokie, pay me 35,000 Energy!!1!1!" - Kozma

If those Fire Crystals were cheaper, I mean, 7/8x cheaper, then hey, I guess you would make a great point. People would actually buy those Fire Crystals.

"Lockdown doesn't make people leave, people make people leave."

People don't make people leave, what people wear make other people leave. Unique Variants slam hard on players without Unique Variants that are trying to be professional Lockdown athletes. With Tier 2 Lockdown inhaling dust, Tier 3 (which heavily requires Unique Variants and limited, unbalanced equipment to become a superstar) is the only way to go. Tier 2 Lockdown is no longer naturally being supported by Lockdown players, simply because of things like the Rocket Hammer, Heart Pendants going mainstream, et cetera. *Omg, let's get rid of Trinkets for Lockdown <3* <--- Not a bad idea.

One reason why Tier 2 went into shambles was the extreme independent assortment between the players of Tier 2 Lockdown. New players try out Lockdown in Tier 2, and they happen to be wearing Cobalt and some newbie weapon. However, the Dusker clones eagerly destroy these newcomers before they have a chance to learn. In the early stages of Tier 2 Lockdown, Heart Pendants were extremely rarely found by the players, so there was a much higher equality ratio between ALL players. It was easier to level up so players literally went and grinding a few hours, and returned. Now, grinding takes 3x the previous grinding for level ups (before the Forge was introduced).

On to Tier 3... Tier 3 also used to be more equally-balanced given that heart pendants were rare also. Unique Variants were introduced in 2011, but players began to catch up with the highest possible Unique Variant types accessible by 2012. By 2015, many players have high Unique Variant values, while the rest of Tier 3 players do not have that advantage. As a result, these average players will get torn up over and over again and, well, will learn a lesson that says, "Waste all your money on Unique Variants". Here's a solution: Get rid of outside equipment, and let Three Rings invent a type of equipment that is the same for everyone. Everyone has the same HP (depending on the Striker/Guardian/Recon class though), same attack values, defenses, et cetera. There can be options of Lockdown weapon types to choose from, but they will be equal for everyone. The problem is players do not want to lose all the billions of crowns they spent on the Unique Variants... "There must be a way to compensate . . ."

"I think the main reason is the lack of things to do, after end-game. Especially if you don't enjoy lockdown."

True. We need that "Challenge thingy" that Nick introduced in 2012 or 2013. It sounded like another Coliseum type of thing.

"Accessories are highly optional."

Yet we see players that drool over them . . .

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 17:37
#7
Sipsy's picture
Sipsy
~

TL;DR : It's like fencing, Buy the most expensive foil you can and you'll still lose to a skilled fencer using a russian/chinese foil.

It's not necessary to buy any fire crystals. It's just an option that's there if you want to. If you don't want to grind for them, you don't have to. You can go at your own pace. You can play the levels you want to play - except for shrooms. ( Id rather buy crystals than accessories if I was rich anyway lololol and even then I'd still play levels for them - coz SK's still just a game after all )

People do make people leave. All the complaints about AT/Pulsars/Lag/Latency ( yes, even I've done this before ), have made me want to leave lockdown. Oh and I almost forgot to mention name calling and cussing right at each other. Just because of the annoying immaturity. But you find out how to use the ignore system and then you get the most annoying hundred people on there and you're fine. If you can't deal with someone working harder and getting better gear than you and you leave just because of that, then. Well. I don't even know where to begin.

Pendants aren't bad. They let you play longer. Who'd want to play a game with a 14 second respawn - on average, where you die in 1 hit in T3?
If the respawns were instantaneous or 3 seconds long, sure, no pendants would be awesome. It would also eliminate the time a person has to make up excuses for his/her death, complain and call names so it'll make LD less toxic as well. Too bad OOO won't improve anything anyway and that's perfectly fine with me coz I have grown to like the way lockdown is right now. LD could use some improvements but it's still very fun IMO.

"New players try out Lockdown in Tier 2, and they happen to be wearing Cobalt and some newbie weapon. However, the Dusker clones eagerly destroy these newcomers before they have a chance to learn."

You're trying to define skilled and unskilled players by gear. A skilled cobalt could easily destroy an unskilled Dusker. Skill > Gear
And also, no matter what type of gear you have, you'll still be sh--crappy ( censorship @_@ ) if you're first starting out anyway ! I got smashed on my first few games of lockdown. I'm pretty sure my 5th game, I tried gunning and couldn't even >hit< one person - I got 0 damage. That was my most memorable game. But it was still fun since hardly anyone called you names and that sort back when lockdown first came out.

"Waste your money on Unique Variants."
Though I assure you, you don't need them, it's still a much better option than wasting your money on Accessories.

Edit : That's my last post/reply on this thread I've spent way too much time in way too many pointless arguments. Coz Opinions.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 18:46
#8
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

@Bopp

I believe 4* items need a nerf, not 5* items a buff. I even wrote a nice short suggest thread on why here.

@Itsmeandersonlol

"Spiral Knights was adored as a simple MMO. When Unique Variants, Accessories, Missions, unbalanced equipment (Black Kat Cowl, Acheron, Chaos Attire) and titles such as Prestige took the stage, players were overwhelmed by what they must accomplish to achieve higher authority with the community."

What does higher authority in the community even mean? Doesn't --every-- MMO add more stuff so that players stick around longer (so that players can have more to brag about obtaining/completing)?

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 19:34
#9
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk

"What does higher authority in the community even mean?"

As in, "well-known" and respected players. People that others recognize by fame, by looks, et cetera. "To look up to."

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 20:00
#10
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk
"All the complaints about

"All the complaints about AT/Pulsars/Lag/Latency ( yes, even I've done this before ), have made me want to leave lockdown. Oh and I almost forgot to mention name calling and cussing right at each other."

That is different. A simple mute can be done, or players can go over to the Suggestions subforum and help spread awareness regarding the suggestion to hide the "chat box".

On the other hand, Unique Variants and limited, unbalanced gear such as Black Kat Cowl and Overcharged Mixmaster introduce flaws within the freedom of obtaining the gear of your choice that is of availability.

"A skilled cobalt could easily destroy an unskilled Dusker."

Depends ... From my quotation:

"New players try out Lockdown in Tier 2, and they happen to be wearing Cobalt and some newbie weapon. However, the Dusker clones eagerly destroy these newcomers before they have a chance to learn."

"New players .. wearing Cobalt and some newbie weapon" addresses the fact that these new players will likely be destroyed by the "Dusker clones ..", which refers to long-time players that wear the most powerful equipment for the given Lockdown situation [in this case, Dusker equipment .. ], and simply do not give the newbie Cobalt knight a chance to enjoy competing in Lockdown .. There are, however, those players that are curious and decide to experiment with Lockdown, "in a competitive manner" .. Like myself. These curious competitors decide to obtain the equipment that the "Dusker clones" have equipped, and in the end, they are successful.

Despite that, Lockdown has balancing issues, and admitting to it is fine in this case. Tier 3 takes a good, long, while to level up and strengthen your 4-star or 5-star equipment, contradicting the quicker, easier levelling up of 2-star and 3-star equipment .. It feels as if obtaining Level 10 5-star equipment is very tedious, limiting how powerful the typical Tier 3 Lockdown player can be. Lockdown, of course, is not fueled on the power of your attacks, though many children playing Lockdown (I presume that there are many .. ) will want to be the better player than the average.

This leaves me with: "There needs to be an easier way to prove skill works better against what [you] are wearing .. "
.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 20:11
#11
Bopp's picture
Bopp
Skepticraven

Nerfing 4-star items, instead of buffing 5-star items, is also fine with me. All of this would be subject to rebalancing anyway. Cheers.

Fri, 05/29/2015 - 21:42
#12
Blue-Flood's picture
Blue-Flood

Balance is always something ongoing that should be taken into consideration with every updated weapon. The last update to the pulsars was awesome (lower damage, less bullet time in the air). And then there's the acheron...

To get a 5* weapon to deal more damage then it's 4* counterpart it has to at least hit level 7. I'm content with the 4* version for LD, but would gladly donate to the game to upgrade my 5* items if we had anything relating to weapon/armor balancing addressed. Anything... seriously anything.

Mad Bomber most useless armor 2012-2015+

Sat, 05/30/2015 - 02:10
#13
Jazzberry-Jam's picture
Jazzberry-Jam
Id like that, for lockdown to

Id like that, for lockdown to have ballanced, equal gear choices for everyone, but then there is also the problem that striker class is better than the others, and here is why, at least how i see it:

1) When you hit someone in lockdown, if that person was about to hit as well, his hit gets canceled. I have no idea why this is a thing that happenes, i find it a design flaw. Anyway, if your hits interupt enemy hits, then who hits first wins (i dont mean just the first hit...), and striker offers the most attack speed bonus for swords, therefore he would win. You might say "recon has same amount of speed inscreased but for guns, so you can hit safely from a distance" but striker has his special dash with which he can close the distance in a heartbeat, and then you are dead.

2) Guardian shield and Recon stealth, once depleated, after a delay, they start to slowly regenerate, but striker's dash fuel completely fills up in an instant after that short delay. So they are less punished for always using their special ability, and in my opinion, it should be more punished or at least demanding a more careful use, as that dash is very powerful.

Sat, 05/30/2015 - 16:13
#14
Gwenyvier's picture
Gwenyvier
Lack of new content and

Lack of new content and Forge

There are events, but those last all of 1-2 weeks for any given event and then its gone for months. So players may come back to try it and then go poof again. For consistently available content there has been a half dozen new missions added over the last year... and that's it. And one of them the final floor is the Unknown Passage but without any kind of payout at the end.

The Forge is a big thing that drives people away, it is decent until you get to 3*, 3* crystals are a little rarer than they should be, good at 4*, and then absurd at 5*. Once you hit 5* the leveling of your gear grinds to a standstill. It used to take me max of a week to fully level a piece of 5* equipment. Now it takes 453 fire crystals (excluding level skips), and if you get 20 on a run you are doing very, VERY well. Obviously assuming 100% chance as anything else is literally throwing away resources. I have several pieces of newer gear that are never going to get fully leveled because A: I don't play as much as I used to, and B: I honestly can not be bothered to level it due to having to do about 38-50 runs (assuming 9-12 crystals average per run) per piece of equipment to fully level it! Especially on things like shields where the stat gain is negligible at best. I can always pay to get those crystals of course... except it used to cost me 700 CE to create a 5* item and that was it, and to buy enough crystals to get from level 9 to level 10 I am going to have to spend 1600 CE. Or 6400 CE to fully level it, assuming I find 53 crystals while I'm physically heating the item to level it.

I can not imagine going through the game from newbie to fully leveled 5* player now and not getting annoyed and leaving to play other things. It is going to take your average player over a month to fully level a single piece of 5* gear, much less a helmet, armor, and a few weapons so you have some choices. And during the time you're doing all those runs to get crystals to you feel next to no progression, the heat bar is going to be full long before you start going "only 5 more runs and I might be able to level it to 7!"

~Gwen

Sat, 05/30/2015 - 19:10
#15
Nolidor's picture
Nolidor
SK loses players once players

SK loses players once players beat the game far enough for the grind to not be worthwhile since they have other things to do.

Besides, it's work. People come here to play a game, not work.

Sun, 05/31/2015 - 16:21
#16
Pery-Alaois's picture
Pery-Alaois
Radiant fire crystals: People

Radiant fire crystals:
People say we should farm the lowest depths for them, but a game requiring that amount of time is a tad ridiculous. I'm okay with going to stratum 6, but I'm not okay having to go deeper than that for some stupid shards. This game should respect how much time people have to play games.

And if you try to pay for them, they cost SEVEN HUNDRED UNITS of energy for FIFTY. You need over FOUR HUNDRED of them to fully heat a 5* piece of equipment. That's WHALEFOOD. I am NOT spending that much money!

Mon, 06/01/2015 - 20:17
#17
Derp-Extvia
Excessive grinding...

Excessive grinding...

Mon, 06/01/2015 - 22:26
#18
Poothis's picture
Poothis
Well...

I wouldn't say it's complex, it's just grinding. That's pretty much it. And for a lot of people, it's not for them. I for one am ok with it... kinda... maybe... ok maybe not... but SK just has this thing that keeps bringing me back.

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