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suggestion for modification of the catalyzers

10 replies [Last post]
Wed, 06/03/2015 - 03:58
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum

Hopefully the big words got your attention
I have recently acquired a catalyzer, they're fun to use, but the mechanics are a bit finicky
I'll address each problem I've noticed so far and add a suggested fix to said problem

Problem: if you run with the bullet and they stack on top of each other and the bullets hit a block, they act as one and all 3 disappear
Solution: increase the bullet speed, not to a regular handgun speed though, probably something like the magnus charge bullet speed

Problem: bullets fade in 20 seconds, so you need multiple rounds of tag volleys in order to kill larger enemies
Solution: increase the tag duration to 40 seconds, or a minute, this definitely isn't game breaking and it only serves to make a thicker tag halo around enemies and requires less detonation
Fangels solution that I also think would work: add 5 seconds to the duration, but make it so that when the bullets expire that have a weaker, no knock back explosion

Problem: the charge can only hit enemies one at a time, so if you shoot 2 tagged enemies, only one registers
Solution: make the charge an explosive bullet, when it hits an enemy it has a small AOE blast with no knock back, like the valiances charge (bullet speed may remain the same
Alternate solution: (I believe someone on the forums made a suggestion like this in the arsenal after the gunner update, feel free to claim credit, I will add you to the OP) make the charge a laser (no knock back, only damages once) not like a IMF laser, I mean like it shows a bright line for a very short duration of time

Problem: this gun is atrocious when attempting to use it in a party
Solution: (claimed by qwez, it was a joke but its actually a good idea) make the tags trigger from any weapons charge attack
At solution from holy nightmare: bullet speed increase, maybe slows down tagged enemies (blandaxt addition:) 5%msd for each tag

Problem: the gun breaks freeze
Solution: find a way to make it break blocks without doing damage
Alt solution: make it so that freeze is broken only by attacks that deal more than 1 damage, this weapon is currently the only type in game that only deals 1 so that shouldn't be too bad

That's all for now, I'll probably find more later

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 07:07
#1
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
....

Problem: if you run with the bullet and they stack on top of each other and the bullets hit a block, they act as one and all 3 disappear

This is more of a problem with adapting to a new playstyle. People hated Tortoguns because you couldn't get lots of damage on the regular shot or by spamming the charge. Only truly innovative people adjusted their playstyle to capitalize on the tortofist's power by using gear to move enemies into the incoming charge.

Problem: bullets fade in 20 seconds, so you need multiple rounds of tag volleys in order to kill larger enemies

I have found that getting the most out of catalyzers actually requires a middle ground between stacking bullets and spamming charges. I posted my Playstyle in your thread about Catalyzer UVs but to keep people on this page I'll type it again:

Just fire two of the clip and charge on the third.

Click, Click, Click and hold.

This way you take advantage of the catalyzer's special effect and still deal good damage to a group of enemies. If you time it right you can use the orbiting shots to knock enemies back.

Problem: the charge can only hit enemies one at a time, so if you shoot 2 tagged enemies, only one registers
Actually you can due to the fact that the Charge will set off orbs within a small radius of the charge bullet, it just becomes hard to do because of the slow speed at which the charge travels. It is also more difficult with AT on.

Problem: this gun is atrocious when attempting to use it in a party
Unless you can get the whole party to use these guns

Problem: the gun breaks freeze
You shouldn't have to rely on freeze to get this setup and besides, many of the more skilled players don't like freeze since it hinders kiting and can cut off routes in battle.

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 10:45
#2
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Hmm.

Holy-Nightmare hit a lot of points on the head.

Bullet speed is fine as is. That does sound like a bug however, so that's something that can hopefully be fixed instead of changed.

The fading on tag bullets is okay I feel. However, the bullets should probably not just, you know, go poof. It would be great if they did a low damage and no-knockback explosion upon expiring, but dealt no status. Would make the gun a lot more popular in lockdown as once you're tagged, you're going to take damage at some point, and maybe even damage teammates.
I would say with this change, make the bullets only last 5 seconds longer. The explosions on fade would more than make up for it.

As Holy-Nightmare said, you can hit multiple enemies with one charge. You need to aim between the two of them. Sometimes it won't work (i.e., smacks into an enemy before setting off the other one's charges), but if you tag a crowd then fire a charge bullet through the center, it gets super fun real fast.

Gun breaking freeze... Okay, I like the idea of damage > 1 breaking freeze, but at 1 or below not breaking freeze. Would actually open up a lot of options for new or exciting items, such as a freeze-debuffing weapon or item. An item could shoot a laser much like an auto-turret, but inflict freeze and only deal 1 damage. Would be usable for applying freeze to many enemies in a line (and prep them for a brandish charge), but also to break a bunch of blocks.

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 11:51
#3
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

That is definitely not a play style issue, its bullets that disappear instead of continue along the path, even non stacked bullets have a habit of disappearing when they're close

The idea of the second suggestion was for new play styles, sure yours works, but some people would probably prefer the setup of a massive ring of tags that can ohko a large enemy over small bits of detonation over time

The second one I can flat out say, incorrect, at point blank shooting between 2 tagged enemies only one detonates and the other (while knocked 2 rooms away probably) still has all the tags intact, I've tested it with different enemy types, ranges, and enemy configurations, it simply never worked 90% of the time, yes ive checked lag and connection and those are definitely not a problem

"Get the whole party to use the guns"
Seriously, go to a random party and find a group that they all own catalyzers, and convince them to use them, good luck
The point was to make it better for parties where only one person owns the gun, as is usually the case

Last one, this isn't for a setup, its to prevent sabotage, if someone is keeping an enemy frozen, like vana, an arena, devilites, and you start firing this, its only 1 damage so obviously it would stay aggroed to the person who froze it, or a party member who already held aggro, making a painful surprize for the person who thought the whole group was frozen, only to realize one got loose and smacked them

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 12:46
#4
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Vohtarak

Disappearing bullets may be caused by dodging enemies or enemies moving too fast. When a gremlin dodges backwards it becomes temporarily immune to bullets much like how a knight's dash jump does the same. This is a bug that has been in the game since the beginning but only recently could players exploit it. I have to say that it is a playstyle issue, a bit forced by things not working as you would expect, but a style nonetheless. Ever shield cancel after using a Spur, Arc Razor, or Winmillion charge? You know what it does? It doesn't fire the charge if you shield cancel unlike brandishes. Once you let go you can still change the direction which it will go, brandishes on the other hand lock you into a direction after you let go.

20 seconds is more than enough time to deal a ton of damage, the current time is fine. If it was extended then there might be issues with lag.

Your charge doesn't have to shoot the enemies it has to shoot the orbs, if you shoot between 2 enemies then both of the orbs they have might not go off.

Catalyzers used to be somewhat decent in parties but after the GU it became much harder. One fix to this would be a increase the speed of the bullets. It would also be nice if tagged targets got a bit slower, that way you can still help the party even if you don't do that much damage. Still even with the current model you can pull the "Lone Wolf" gig and split off from the party when possible.

A good bomber keeps their eyes on everything on the screen. To spam Freeze bombs and not expect your party to attack the helpless monsters is a bit silly.

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 15:35
#5
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

I'm not talking about dodging enemies, I already knew that
This happens with slimes, turrets, zombies, anything with a hitbox

"Has to shoot the orbs" from my using it its only worked when I hit an enemy directly, no idea why

Thanks for actual feedback on party playability, I'll add that to the OP when I can

Not sure about what you think of haze bombs, but I know a hit from almost anything swaps aggro to the hitter, the issue is I know from a lot of people that they expect this, and going back to what I said earlier, vanaduke is definitely a factor, most people get flat out kicked if they break the freeze with anything less than a blitz needle

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 17:11
#6
Qwez's picture
Qwez

I was bored, so I went googling.
Vohtarak did you mean this thread in which I posted a derp comment?(no need to credit me if it is... because that wasn't really a suggestion, just curious)
Also, when searching for "reverse catalyzer" the only hit is this. Maybe this was that suggestion that led to the catalyzer changes :|, or maybe not.
------------------
I really like the slow bullets. Catalyzer has that small niche of activating enemy dodges/shields but without obnoxious explosions. So I can force enemies to dodge/shield, then exploit their wasted efforts to deal with the decoy bullets. Out of the perks that I've lost from Catalyzer, that's one of the few nice perks left.
I've stopped using my Catalyzer as a subpar main weapon (except for derps). Now I mostly use it for its perks as a slow-bullet gun. I don't bother with the charge for damage because there are better weapons for more consistent damage. Catalyzer has become a utility weapon in my eyes.

I've settled with Catalyzer in its current state. I don't particularly care for these suggestions, because these don't really affect how play with my Catalyzers.

Wed, 06/03/2015 - 21:25
#7
Blandaxt's picture
Blandaxt
totally

Totally agree with having the charge bullet do an eplosive aoe damage similar to a charge polaris shot. Can easily detonate more then one enemy that way.

- Was thinking of puting in an idea of my own. For every orb that a monster is tagged with, that monster's speed will be reduced by 5%. So if a monster is tagged with 6 orbs, that monster's/target's speed will be reduced to a total of 30%. This means the target will be much easier to hit with the charge attack and the target will be easier to dodge with it's reduced movement speed. This would greately improve the gun's usability in my opinion.

Thu, 06/04/2015 - 11:35
#8
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

I like that, I'll add blands idea to the OP

@qwez i didn't know where the idea was, all I know is I've seen it before, but I found it to be pretty good because teammates have a habit of prioritizing enemies that youre setting up a ring on and they kill it before you can detonate

Edit, fixed the name

Thu, 06/04/2015 - 06:14
#9
Holy-Nightmare's picture
Holy-Nightmare
@ Vohtarak

I think you meant @Qwez

Any yes most teammates do that because most have no clue how the gun works because they have never owned anything other than Polaris, Combuster, Acheron, and Blitz

Thu, 06/04/2015 - 11:39
#10
Vohtarak-Forum's picture
Vohtarak-Forum
I'm vohtarak, call me by that name

Sorry, I need to stop looking at profile pics
I'll fix that

Edit: finally I make a suggestion with more than 1 commenter

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