Spiral Knights - Why Radiant scarcity is harmful (to some of us)

Why Radiant scarcity is harmful (to some of us)

20 replies [Last post]

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 09:29

Autofire

Hiya, all! Been too long...shakes head...yea, too long, friends.

At least, now I know why I quit Spiral Knights! I believe that I'm...Dons Explorer's Hat...a hardened explorer, inside and out.

But let me explain with exhibit A!

I'll just sum up Bartle's Taxonomy. Basically, most players fall into four types:

Socializers, those who use the game as a platform for talking to (or interacting with) other players. We had (and probably still do have) a lot of these throughout Spiral Knights. Especially those in successful guilds.
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Killers, those who love making other players rage by killing (or acting upon) other players. Back with Lockdown was big, we had a TON of these gnarly guys and gals. Too bad they've all moved on! (Oh, but you might, just might be able to count those who like sniping Auction House goods...but I'm not sure.)
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Achievers, those who make it their goal to get the best gear or the most money. We still have a ton of these, don't we? You don't have to look far to find those knights with super shiny, maxed equipment with triple UVs everywhere.
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Explorers, those who like to explore and experiment! I'm totally one of these, because I'm one of the few players who found the DVS, Shards, Callahan, and other 'crap' weapons like those to be desirable. And, frankly, I did quite well after using these weapons for a while, finding new combos and such.

Radiants basically don't effect Socializers (unless they want to look flashy in their maxed equipment).

Killers/Achievers both want the best gear; while they're grinding out Radiants, they're also getting more money for UVs. Once they get their core set of equipment, they're all set! (Unless more equipment comes out, but they'll have enough resources saved up by then to buy the stuff they need.) They can grumble, but it's not too rough for them.

But Explorers like me? Well, I wouldn't be surprised if ALL of us hate Radiants. You see, I like to experiment with new weapon types. And, sure, I could experiment with 4* equipment, but sometimes equipment changes radically when it's ascended to 5*. (Such as most bombs, WHB, all Alchemers, and DA) It's also nicer to have maximized equipment that's comparable to my other stuff that I have already maximized. (Such as my pre-Orb equipment.)

Maybe 5* items don't really need to be maxed, but it's just so frustrating being unable to max it, especially due to CTR bonuses for bombs and the like. Part of it is psychological; I can play Hearthstone with some sub-par cards and still experiment, but Spiral Knights pointedly tells you again and again that your weapon can be leveled up with the right number of Radiants. It's obvious that the developers meant to shove this in players' faces repeatedly.

And this, my friends, is one of the reasons for my quitting. There are MANY more weapon combinations to be tried, but it's rather frustrating to find them, in the game's current state. So...devs pls patch flaw.

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 10:16

Bopp

so in short

So to summarize your post: The scarcity of Radiants makes it harder to heat your 5-star equipment to heat level 10. And having 5-star equipment that isn't completely heated is psychologically undesirable. And lots of items change between 4 and 5 stars, so exploring equipment requires you to upgrade to 5 stars. Putting it all together, the scarcity of Radiants makes exploring equipment harder.

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 12:14

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Bopp: Yeah, basically. I should have summarized it like that...*shrugs*

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 14:26

Midnight-Dj

Pessimism level restored

the scarcity of Radiants makes exploring equipment so hard that it is better to just stick with those fully heated 5* gears you got prior to the forge update .

Fixed.

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 14:29

Appletize

Agreed

I've not played for more than a year, but I was always fond of the game's atmosphere and setting so I popped back in recently... and after a few days I'm already close to leaving again, because of this issue.

The reason is I just can't make any progress with my character, due to it all being tied to gear, and being unable to improve his gear without Radiants that just don't drop. I have joined a guild in the hopes of finding people who'll help me (and I help them) but I can't survive by myself in the areas where apparently they drop, and so far there isn't much apparent interest in either the Prestige missions or my outstanding Rank ones. I sit in either a public lobby for nearly 30 minutes before I give up, or watch the Party Finder which never pulls anything but Arcade runs. I do join those to heat lower weapons, but saving up for the middle upgrade (70%) and watching those fail is agonizing.

I've put up a thread here in General looking for Arcade running teams to hopefully get my last two outstanding Achievements (I'm missing one donate minerals one on Steam, but that's gone forever it seems), but no one has responded to that request either.

So... yes, I'm completely fed up with the game again already! The fact most of your income has to come from hours of selling items on the Auction House too just makes it worse because the only other target I've been able to set myself is raising money for Energy to buy the Radiants. And that's slooooow too. In about 6 hours of play I've only got 300 energy, half way to a purchase that would only give me half progress towards the first 70% chance of levelling a single item... The current Radiant grind just bores me to tears and drives me away from the game again :(

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 16:04

Fangel

Hmm

I should add there are collectors to that list. Collectors want as many weapons as possible to have a lot of opportunities. Collectors try to get as much stuff as they can, but not necessarily use it all or even heat all of it.

Personally I'm not too offset by the radiant drought, but I can pace out my gameplay and am not too worried about max level gear asap, plus I can reliably farm the best levels to get the rarities anyways.

What we really need are more places to get radiants. When you have 1 or 2 places to get them, it's kinda annoying. When you have several, you can change things up and keep it interesting.

I guess it's set in stone to make making your weapons to level 10 at 5* not feel as important end-game, and extend the end-game a whole lot. However, we are so used to leveling up our gear to max level, especially since 4* requires it, but with the crystals being more common. Spiral Knights has a lot of issues with pacing, where right when you start rolling at a speedy pace you get hit by another wall, and instantly your progress is halted. Hall of Heroes is that, and 5* heating is the eternal ending. It's good for expanding the game's timeline, but bad because it puts off those who liked to play the game to its fullest.
It's not really radiants that are the problem... It's the pacing issues that are present throughout the whole game. The radiant wall is just the final wall that the game has, so after we've overcome all the walls, this is the last one we have... And you can be end-game forever, you won't be a defender elite forever.

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 20:00

Petater

That's a problem with forge

It basically turned the linear scaling in hardness for farming rewards vs. depth into being only able to farm for your specific needs from only a specific strata. Vanguards used to do RJP and Roarmulus, and didn't mind such, as it linearly scaled against vana in rewards.

The employees basically made it so you have to avoid playing arcade if you want to maximize your radiant drop rate. Can't really block people from playing your game and expect them to value it still.

If you remove the desire of vanguards to play the easier levels, then you lose a bunch of support for newer players. Vanguards around 2011/2012 used to play with new players at RJP all the time. I barely see that now.

Thu, 11/26/2015 - 23:42

Abelisk

Could be the reason why players are leaving. That and maybe having nothing to do post-Vanguard.

Fri, 11/27/2015 - 11:46

Traevelliath

As someone who has been studying Bartle's Taxonomy for a while now, I just want to point out a few really small quibbles...

Killers, those who love making other players rage by killing (or acting upon) other players. Back with Lockdown was big, we had a TON of these gnarly guys and gals. Too bad they've all moved on! (Oh, but you might, just might be able to count those who like sniping Auction House goods...but I'm not sure.)

Killers don't necessarily want to induce rage. They want to feel more powerful than others. A lot of killers do like getting a reaction out of their prey, but it's not their defining factor. Merchant killers, for example, like to feel superior by outsmarting people. This can be either by playing the market (buy low / sell high) or by haggling/cheating a guy out of as much money as possible.

It's also nicer to have maximized equipment that's comparable to my other stuff that I have already maximized. (Such as my pre-Orb equipment.)

This is actually achiever behavior. Explorers want the game to surprise them, and leveling a 5* wep from 1 to 10 doesn't really create any surprises (other than maybe a forge box). Yes, explorers tend to try out strange weapons, but you're talking about an achiever relying on self-imposed challenges. Explorers just want to level up their equipment enough so that they can experiment with it.

That said, it's very rare for a player to be only a single archetype. It's a spectrum, so while you can be primarily an explorer, you can also have achiever traits.

If anything, the radiant shortage (and missions to an extent) weeds out everyone except the most devoted achievers. When a game gets dominated by achievers, everyone starts living in their own little world, focusing only on themselves. Occasionally they group up, but it's out of necessity not because they want to be friendly. There are still plenty of people playing. They just play SK as if it's a single player game, which is why the game feels really empty.

Fri, 11/27/2015 - 01:57

Neometal

TIL I'm an achiever.
I got over my explorer-phase before the 'big-update', though I still like to derp around with the lesser used weapons (which I fully heated years ago :p).

Fri, 11/27/2015 - 18:16

#10

Fehzor

According to the website I am an explorer+achiever.

http://imgur.com/5jdWhGR

site-
http://www.4you2learn.com/bartle/

I think the lack of heat applies to everyone though... They all have to heat at least one set of five to ten items, or are at least encouraged to do so.

Fri, 11/27/2015 - 18:25

#11

Bopp

two weapons

It's quite possible to play through this entire game with only two weapons --- for example, Combuster and Blitz Needle, or Leviathan Blade and Iron Slug. And you don't need to heat armor or shield at all. And, as Traevelliath has pointed out, heating is not interesting.

Therefore the entire Radiant scarcity is about restricting players from exploring equipment. That's not a small thing --- exploring weapon styles is a major point of playing this game --- but it does mean that this thread is functionally identical to all of the other "Radiants are too scarce" threads.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 01:06

#12

Fehzor

.......which is why I said are at least encouraged to do so and not as some kind of absolute. It's possible to do a lot of things but rather unrealistic to expect most off them from people- blitz and combuster don't sound fun on C42.

But anyway, what would you suggest we do to get them to improve the situation? After all, for some of us changing the world is the real game.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 03:23

#13

Thunder-The-Bright

algorithms are the solutions to any problem.

I think the site is a bit off, like anything else. I'm an explorer and an achiever, but surely not 93%.
anyway, quoting.
bopp:
Therefore the entire Radiant scarcity is about restricting players from exploring equipment. That's not a small thing --- exploring weapon styles is a major point of playing this game --- but it does mean that this thread is functionally identical to all of the other "Radiants are too scarce" threads.
you know, I never thought that. but that also means that radiants and orbs are working against each other. orbs were meant to be plentiful, to make players want to build more than just a standard loadout; but fire crystals heavily restricts 5* crafting, so you can't actually have the full potential of the weapon.
what gives? the orb system seems designed well, but the radiant scarcity kills it at the very end. I always knew this game was catered to low-level play, but still.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 07:01

#14

Bonjourhippo

I suggest an edit to the

I suggest an edit to the thread: "Why Radiant scarcity is harmful (to all of us)"

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 07:10

#15

Bopp

Six-From-Syrup, Thunder-The-Bright

I'm rehashing things that I said after 2013-07-30, but that's okay. The game has a finite amount of content, but the developers want to keep you playing forever. They try to do this by stretching out the end-game.

The classic example is UVs. You save up to get a Voltedge with CTR+4. Then you save up even longer to add ASI+4 to it. Then you realize that WRH is more fun, so you take a while to UV that. Then Three Rings rebalances the equipment and you are incentivized to go for a different combination of UVs. And so on. For super-achievers, getting maxxed-out gear takes an extremely long time.

What Radiants did is bring 5-star gear itself into this stretched-out endgame. You are supposed to beat most of the game with 4-star gear. Then you upgrade to get flashy attacks (DA) and neat auras (DVS) and some unnecessary offense (Chaos). That stuff is supposed to be luxury now.

As always, I am not defending this design. The imbalance between Eternal Orbs and Radiants is pretty strange. I'm just trying to understand the principles that might have lead to such a design.

As for the remedy, I am hoping for new rank missions that extend the plot and offer more chances for Radiants. Meanwhile I do the Arcade: speed-run Stratum 5, buy recipes to resell, and then seek danger rooms in Stratum 6. I get about 27 Radiants per trip. It's not the fastest way to get Radiants, but it's not as grindy as FSC or DaN.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 15:03

#16

Autofire

You are experiencing a PICNIC ERROR!

Traevelliath: Well said. I don't scan through my posts as thoroughly as I should. :P

Bopp: As for the remedy, I am hoping for new rank missions that extend the plot and offer more chances for Radiants. Meanwhile I do the Arcade: speed-run Stratum 5, buy recipes to resell, and then seek danger rooms in Stratum 6. I get about 27 Radiants per trip. It's not the fastest way to get Radiants, but it's not as grindy as FSC or DaN.

Agreed. And that's how I (used to) farm Rads myself.

Also, supposedly I'm 40% Achiever, 87% Explorer, 20% Griefer, and 53% Socializer? I don't think so...that test has some strangely contradictory questions. (Like I can chose between "I like to know where to find stuff" or "I like to know how to get stuff"...aren't these the same?)

Also, yeah I guess I am part achiever, but my thing is I like achieving in ways which few others have done so. Which is why (in Hearthstone) I play Molten Giant Rogue, Midrange Dragon Priest, and Totem Shaman. They don't work too well, but I'm working on refining my decks and seeing how high I can climb the ranks. I suppose I wouldn't play ranked if I was entirely an explorer.

Anyway, I can't really grief. I'm usually too timid or too unskilled or my strange playstyle gets me shafted. Unless I'm playing SSB4. Then I eat everyone for desert. (Ike says hi.)

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 17:00

#17

Fehzor

@Bopp

Not what the developers can do, but what we can do to sway whoever will actually act enough to fix the issue. You said this thread was just like all the others so I'd love to know your take on how we can change the world for the fun of it.

"You are supposed to beat most of the game with 4-star gear. Then you upgrade to get flashy attacks (DA) and neat auras (DVS) and some unnecessary offense (Chaos). That stuff is supposed to be luxury now."

Ok, that is totally you making stuff up.. nowhere in any patch notes or on any blog has anyone mentioned how the game is intended to play. If they have I'd probably have found it by now and if I haven't then do please show me because I'm rather interested in that sort of thing.

Regardless though, that isn't what actually happens. The game throws ample amounts of 5* orbs letting people get all of the flashy effects they want, and then attempts (often unsuccessfully) to tax them for those shiny 5* effects. It's sort of like selling new cars for zero down but ripping the radios and a/c units out until people pay in full.

If the game was meant to be played with 4* gear it would limit 5* orbs and 4* fire crystals. That way, you could explore all of the 4* gear you want and would only get 5* gear when you could afford to pay in full.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 17:53

#18

Bopp

right

Ok, that is totally you making stuff up.. nowhere in any patch notes or on any blog has anyone mentioned how the game is intended to play...

Right. I was stating my interpretation of the design changes in release 2013-07-30. I was not attempting to state facts.

Most alternative interpretations are something like "Three Rings is evil" or "Three Rings is incompetent". I find my interpretation to be more insightful and more probable than those, at least.

You are right that the disbalance between 5-star orbs and 5-star fire crystals is not explained well by my interpretation. But maybe once you have 5-star stuff, Three Rings predicts that you will play a lot to heat it up. The 5-star wall at the Hall of Heroes could be explained in the same way. You're invested enough, that you really want to see how the game ends, so you will play a lot to get 5-star clearance. Or maybe Three Rings just messed up the balance. I don't know.

Not what the developers can do, but what we can do to sway whoever will actually act enough to fix the issue.

I think that we can't do anything.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm a little low on Crimsonite. No, I'm not feeding a Drakon. Wegner told me to collect minerals.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 19:32

#19

Skepticraven

↓

@Autofire

Happen to catch this outdated thread?
Your conclusions should only apply to P2Pers, because for F2Pers... it takes a near-identical quantity of time (using reasonable time estimates) to acquire and heat 5* equipment.

Similar to Bopp's stance - I'm not defending 3O's position... but this "grinding" argument existed before radiants.

@Bopp

I hear those geoknights like pudding as well.

Sat, 11/28/2015 - 20:43

#20

Fehzor

@Skepticraven

See, I'm scared that if we bring up things like that it will be seen as justification for keeping the radiants in their current state, when the arguments for increasing radiant drop areas/rates go far beyond just the time requirement comparison.

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Why Radiant scarcity is harmful (to some of us)