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Acquisition and Major Cleaning Project - Call for Editing Help

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Sat, 12/05/2015 - 08:24
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking

===============================================================================================
Part 1: Intro, Background

For several months, we have been collecting data for a major equipment acquisition cleanup project. This has a much larger scope than the wonderful work we did improving the years-out-of-date material pages.

For details, please see these related links, full of editing ideas and in-game data collection effort:
*Wiki Editor Forums: Basil Information and development of Basil Template
*Wiki Editor Forums: NPC Bazaar Inventory Data Collection and MissNice's huge data tracking efforts

We love the idea of implementing a master acquisition template system for equipment - we've already made the system. It allows us to have very consistent wording, and change minor things very quickly for multiple pages (such as linking something or adjusting phrasing). This was proposed by Hexzyle, but we had to split it off into item types because of the sheer amount of data. Looking at around 12.5k+ bytes for the larger templates, we don't think size will be an issue in the near future, unless the game releases hundreds of new items. Other types of items have their own acquisition systems. For example, we involve DoRSource for aesthetics in junction with a sortable table, and Material/Acquisition for materials.

===============================================================================================
Part 2: One small issue holding us back

We have enough data, and it is time to push changes through. Making this more complicated: the nature of this data is tied into the format of equipment pages. Before we start "bulldozing implementation," we must agree on one thing:

Page format justifications and potential:
Option A or Option B. I have moved "Notes" above the Combat section for option B (and prefer this option), because I feel that "notes" bleeds well into combat, and combat bleeds extremely well into the Gallery, as combat is describing the major files within the gallery.

Many game wikis I read have a few consistencies (while still being inconsistent and making me be cry): acquisition is right at the top where pretty much everyone wants it (similar to finding a company's phone number on their web page -.-, this has received a ton of positive feedback), and galleries are at/near the bottom. For our wiki, due to forum discussion, I have maintained that galleries are followed only by "lists that can potentially expand infinitely" if relevant and See Also. Staff has specifically stated via support that we must have External Video Links located where it is, so that subsection's positioning in the ToC order is not up for debate.

Other sections should be intuitive. Recipe is part of acquisition, as such, it is nested under that section. Damage and attack descriptions are nested under Combat, and are not included in armor/helmet pages.

There is some desire for a damage section for shield bashes, and might be something we look into for the far future. This is not overly critical information, so it does not have our focus at this time.

===============================================================================================
Part 3: Editing

Of focus for this project after agreeing on the Notes section location issue:

Update the acquisition section of all combat equipment pages (except trinkets, leave those alone for now, they need some more work with infoboxes) and clean up pages regarding ToC order and content, making them clean and consistent.

*Refer to Reskin/Acquisition, Page/Shield, Page/Armor (applies to helmets too), and Page/Weapon for easy copy pasting.
*Add acquisition templates
*Put ToC into consistent order and with consistent names ("Acquisition" instead of "Vendor" etc. - pay extremely close attention to ToC subsection organization, or "nested" format, and do not add extra spaces/line breaks/whitespace)
*Remove wayward files (pending galleries with high quality animations, yes, this will be a ton of work, no, we're not asking anyone to do it, but ThePC and Hennils have done a lovely job getting the vast majority of the tooltip rotations done, and adding the process to the Style Guide. Yes, this means simply removing those gifs, pngs, and jpgs that are scattered around some pages. This "ancient editor work" will live on in spirit, because we definitely will include this information in the future at some point in higher quality/consistent file naming format)
*Make sure there are no links in the descriptions, and make sure they are italicized (because they are a quote). While links are useful, we can cover terminology in the Notes section if necessary, many of us completely agree that links in descriptions are distracting and potentially biased when it comes to lore.
*Double check Acquisition information to make sure it is correct and formatted consistently. Edit the appropriate template to fix if you find an error.
*Edit summary/comment should be "Acquisition template and uniform ToC format - see node 112858"
*Always preview before you save changes
*Always copy your entire work in the edit window, paste it into a plain text editor before saving to avoid edit conflict sorrows. Not all browsers can go "back" and keep this information. Better safe than sorry!
*If something is confusing, don't just go in and make edits. Ask us here.

===============================================================================================
EDIT: made sections more clear for forum reading

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 09:14
#1
Falminar's picture
Falminar
...Option B looks exactly the

...Option B looks exactly the same as Option A for me. "Combat" is still above "Notes" in both.

I understand what you mean with the format, though.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 09:53
#2
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
U_U

Could be the wiki taking its time to show the right stuff as usual. To force the change to appear, compare edit history to view option A, and edit+preview the current page to see option B. We need opinions to move forward :)

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 11:42
#3
Bopp's picture
Bopp
other way

I favor Combat before Notes, because Combat is crucial information, whereas Notes is tangential information for amusement or curiosity. You're right that the verbal descriptions in Combat transition well into the pictorial descriptions which are sometimes found in Gallery. But I propose an alternative solution...

The attack animations should be in Combat, because they illustrate that crucial Combat information. Scattering images throughout the article is more attractive than concentrating them in a single section anyway. Other amusement/curiosity-style pictures can remain in Gallery.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 13:16
#4
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
:|

We're working hard to not scatter images (a wiki wide project), as this looks messy, is hard to keep consistent, and messes with the format of the page for many browsers. It's one of the few things I don't like about wikipedia, but it's acceptable there because the topics are so diverse. On a game wiki, not so much. The purpose of the gallery is to lock information into a consistent, reliable format for entities that share similar visual information. This is very appreciated on Battle Sprite pages and many other areas of the wiki.

We've had a horrible time fixing many of these images, and the game masters even helped us and say they really like what we're doing with the animations. I don't want this part of the format to come under discussion, because it's established and it really works.

The combat information is still important and very obvious in its own section, it's just not near the top. This is just an aesthetic issue. Notes look weird interrupting the section flow, but not above combat. Most notes sections will be tiny, mentioning release and not much else. We're looking for options just regarding the note section's placement on the page, if there are any better thoughts out there.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 13:15
#5
Bopp's picture
Bopp
extremely strongly disagree

Pictures are supposed to enhance and illustrate the text. So it makes sense to put them near the text that they enhance. This is not just a Wikipedia thing. It's done in newspapers, magazines, scholarly articles, children's books, advertisements.

One "exception" is art museums, where the text is supposed to enhance the pictures. But the pictures and the text are still next to each other. And you can listen to additional text through audio tours. And you activate the audio for each picture when you are standing next to it.

Pictures illustrating the attacks was also the status quo until sometime around September 2014, when apparently you started coalescing them into galleries. I wish I had paid more attention then.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:17
#6
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
:|

This is simply not up for discussion. Many of us, including staff, worked on galleries for over a year, not just me. I am tired of you thinking this is all just me, I talk with users, see what they like, get verification from staff, and all the works, all while trying to stay within wiki standards in relation to game information. You even blamed me for the gunnerarmor/helmet templation, when edit history clearly shows who did the work. You are holding us back, while not actually helping the process yourself. I honestly don't know what you have against me, is it just because of the sheer number of edits I do, and that makes me a target? Or is it somehow personal? I rarely see you edit, and I find this extremely irritating. It's very easy to complain, and it's something you do often, but you don't actually help us get the work done for the mainspace. Yes, this is directed at you, Bopp. Targeting individuals is something I normally don't do. But you have crossed a line here, in my mind. I love listening to others, because we are all better for it, but over the years it's been so...difficult with you. And I am sorry if this causes upset. You should know these things, though.

Regarding the formats you mention, those are not wikis. They are forms of art and subject to company/group preferences. Regarding proximity of text, that is literally the entire reason for this one hiccup - I want the combat to be right above the gallery, without getting interrupted by the notes section. Which leads to: where should the notes section go? It can't go below the gallery (maybe it should? This isn't consistent with other wikis/pages on our wiki) It can't be too high up because it's misc information.

Because we are a gaming wiki, we have to bend certain rules (this is stated somehwere, I forget where). But I only bend them after talking with at least 2 other players for small things, and bring them to the forums for large things. I would talk with more if SK were more popular. But the messages I get from strangers in Haven are great. And yes, I do receive criticisms, one of these led to the DoR data we have everywhere.

Here's an example of the mess that galleries make go away, and make uploading easier to do assuming people know how to even make animations. If you don't have that mess, you have a ton of whitespace depending on the image size, which is very large to show the attack(s). We outline animation production in the style guide somewhat, and something I plan on making more clear in the future.

This is a call for editing help. We just want a format to refer to because a lot of these pages are very messed up. We can gripe about the details, fusing combat into gallery is a possibility, etc, down the road. What's important is updating this information and having information in the same areas across pages. I was just trying to reduce workload in the future before we start bulldozing - this is not meant to be a huge discussion. This information is horribly out of date, and needs to be fixed. Preferably consistently.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 13:51
#7
Altmetal's picture
Altmetal
long time no c

All right, I think there should be an option C, if there'll eventually be notes on every page: move them to the bottom, under gallery, since it is just some extra info (relase date, origin of name, that sorta stuff).
I can understand why Bopp would like to move some of the pics directly into the combat section, but the gallery being under the combat does that just fine. I don't think the gallery images should be separated.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:11
#8
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
Perhaps

Okay, something to consider for the future. At the risk of derailing this thread, which was intended to be a help node for ppl confused about the acquisition template not working for them or something:

Simply fuse the combat section into the gallery, and keep notes above it (as they are with the rest of the pages on the wiki that have been consistently formatted). This would be most similar to the Battle Sprite pages, such as Drakon (Shadow).

We will focus on this after acquisition, while fixing up the current ToC issues, using Option B?

It seems this isn't a huge obstacle, it only took a moment. Behold: Option D.

For weapons that we don't have galleries for yet, just pretend "combat" is the gallery and format as such?

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:17
#9
Bopp's picture
Bopp
Dracora-Speaking

You are right that we should not argue about the content of the gallery right now. That's what I was trying to say about September 2014 --- I missed my chance somehow.

You are right that I don't edit much anymore. There are several reasons...

Because I don't edit much, in most of these Wiki Editors threads I simply acquiesce to you. You've seen me do it many times.

Although I don't edit much, I still comment in these threads because you seem to want feedback and discussion. Talking to an empty room is no fun. I'm trying to help. Sorry for also irritating you sometimes.

In particular, the original post is not just a "help node", but also asks for an opinion on formatting. So I gave you my opinion, with the reasoning behind it.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:17
#10
Altmetal's picture
Altmetal
title

D is also good, however at first i didn't see the info under the pics (i am atm sleepy, tho).

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:33
#11
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
Hrmm hrrm

Regarding the evolution of the gallery, there wasn't any one thread for feedback. It stemmed from the absolute need for it on Battle Sprite pages and describing their ultimate changes, and then more and more people wanted overworld visuals and tooltip animations for costumes and accessories - pages that don't have room to just stick images anywhere because there is no relevant context in sections to describe them (= captions), and then staff helped us with BS image renaming/liked what we were doing, and more recently with NPCs, and now here we are over a year later with a template that allows us to upload files easily to consistent names while containing the format issues across browsers. It's like a slot-able thing and it just...works. Players love it and this is the first time I've ever seen someone dislike it. And believe me, people are not afraid to criticize. It seems to be a social necessity. We should/would have heard something. Statistically.

If we all like option D, pretending "combat" is gallery+combat for pages that don't have galleries yet (and likely won't unless I can edit as a ghost or more people help), then we can move forward with this as soon as we get more volunteers to help edit. But you need to say if you do/don't like option D. It's a wiki and it can change in the future - right now, the goal is to get that acquisition information up to date and fix major format inconsistencies.

To aid in the visual information, I've added labels above the basic and charge attacks for the gallery template. While I feel that the gallery code is very archaic, it is templated (it just looks like the "gallery" code), that lets us have a lot of possibilities for the future if we ever get out of 2010.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:26
#12
Falminar's picture
Falminar
Is there even an option C?

KILL IT.

-1 to Option D.

Not really wanting option A or B, neutral between the two.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:32
#13
Bopp's picture
Bopp
indifferent

Options A, B, and D are roughly equally desirable to me, if you wanted to know.

To be honest I prefer Altmetal's option C, but not strongly enough to fight for it.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:39
#14
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
?

Can you explain why you don't like Option D? Yelling "KILL IT" doesn't really help us.

The problem with notes being below gallery is that... other well-formatted pages do this. The only thing below galleries is a sortable ever-expanding list, which is essentially a gallery anyway. This stemmed from a list format discussion quite some time ago.

Notes above galleries:

*Accessories (and costumes)
*NPCs (very recent format agreed upon by the few people who actively care/edit NPC pages)

These pages have limited content and so the ToC order is somewhat forced, but I'd like for players to be able to find the same type of information easily in the same relative spots, even if entities are completely different.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:48
#15
Falminar's picture
Falminar
Found Option C.

I generally prefer the Gallery in a separate section.

Seeing option C, I prefer that.

C > A/B > D

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 14:52
#16
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
*deep sigh*

Notes below the gallery for these pages can just be an exception, then. I don't like it, but it seems to work best for everyone replying to the thread.

This is what it looks like: Option C

It's very good. But it is troublesome for reasons stated above. I suppose it's not a huge issue because the entities are just that different.

Sat, 12/05/2015 - 15:41
#17
Puurrfect's picture
Puurrfect
Option C

While i agree that information flows a little bit better having Notes on top of Gallery, it makes more sense to me to have it under it since it isn't as vital as the rest.
Images near text look good... but only if you're reading in some specific resolutions. It tends to create countless problems when read on mobile devices or smaller screens, so Gallery should remain bundled up.

Sun, 12/06/2015 - 08:52
#18
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
Pushing buttons

Now that we seem to have settled on the single issue regarding the Notes placement section with Option C (part 2 of OP), let's see who wants to volunteer for part 3, implementation.

This is a large project and will take a lot of time. Less time with more volunteers, but it will be tedious work, and it is likely you'll want to give up. That's fine, because it is volunteer work, but I'd suggest just "taking a breather" instead of dropping it altogether.

I think the following process should work. Practice first:

Pick a random non-trinket equipment page. It can be your favorite piece, doesn't matter. Refer to Part 3 of the OP for detailed instructions and links to useful template documentation. Edit the page to the best of your ability according to the format we've worked out. The most important part of this project is updating acquisition and making sure every equipment page has the same named ToC sections in the same order (pay attention to helmet/armor vs. shield vs. weapon, and again, do not include gallery unless there's content to complete the gallery, which there isn't, also finding all that news stuff is very tedious and would add to the workload - just don't do that right now). Many equipment pages are currently, and have been for an uncomfortable amount of time, out of date and several are poorly formatted. After you do this for the one page you picked, come back to the thread, post a link to what you did (in case it somehow gets buried in recent changes), and we will make sure everything is right. Then do the same thing again, after we've looked over your process.

Be prepared for more criticism than praise - this is a necessity, and makes our wiki better. Definitely not personal, so don't take it that way. That being said, I try to personally thank everyone who endeavors to help a wiki (you can see a list of individuals on my personal page, for example). The reward for this project is satisfaction that you are helping the community, as well as yourself.

Sun, 12/06/2015 - 11:12
#19
Skepticraven's picture
Skepticraven
↓

I don't have an opinion on step 3 point 3 (formatting order).
I do have a comment on step 3 point 2 (template acquisition).
I like that. It is a good idea to try and update all the pages at the same time, but it may be too much to try and tackle and get done in a reasonable amount of time.

Sat, 12/12/2015 - 21:40
#20
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
@Skepticraven and Progress

Should we suggest only implementing acquisition (and fixing the ToC whenever relevant) - always double checking the acquisition information is correct and consistently showing up per page?

This would be better, but since many people are interested in this, it would be nice to fix the other things as well since it's rare to have more than 2 or so of us working on the wiki on a project at any given time. We can always have those interested in updating acquisition just do that, there's no rule saying "you must do all of this at once or not at all!" Just make the edit summary clear.

I think Skeptic is right in terms of "too much to tackle." Do what you can/want to. Be mindful of the edit conflicts - not usually a problem for our tiny wiki, but that's why we encourage copying your work in the edit window.

EDIT: (major note) We have yet to add Basil template into the acquisition master templates, we definitely need to do that now that we have a ton of recent data, I totally forgot we hadn't done this yet! It's tedious work but should be easy to do, if anyone wants to have a go at it. I likely won't get to the grit work of this today. We probably shouldn't stick the acquisition templates into the pages until this is complete - again, sorry, I totally forgot we hadn't done this, partially because I believed we already had.

EDIT: working out a few Basil kinks. They should be smoothed out and flexible for the future. Importantly, do we want to display recipe crown cost or not?

EDIT:
The Acquisition/Shield template has had Basil information added and can now be plugged into the Acquisition section of individual Shield pages. I would suggest using the list of shields or the shield category (obviously, leave the "obsolete" pages alone). If you're working with someone, go in reverse order - one person starts lower star, other person starts higher star. I'm sure we're all intelligent enough to figure that out, this is just a reminder/helper post for anyone new who might want to help. Other templates remain incomplete regarding basil and mission rewards. I will continue to post here when the various master acquisition templates are complete.

===============================================================================================
Thanks to User:Hikaru-Fer for doing the chassis for these template entries, and User:MissNice for collecting all that data and listing it. Me being able to CTRL+F in those lists to cross-reference was instrumental in getting this done efficiently. Continue to ignore trinkets, we will deal with those later. Snarbylord has fixed recipes for several of them, thank you!

Acquisition templates completed and therefore ready for implementation (as always, check for errors. Errors of course include missing data):
-Reskins
-Shields
-Bombs
-Handguns
-Swords
-Helmets
-Armor

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