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The casino is bad; let's make it better

21 replies [Last post]
Tue, 05/24/2016 - 19:52
Fangel's picture
Fangel

So we have the golden slime casino in the game now! Lots of fun, right?

Not really.

As it stands, the casino is nice for stocking up on things, gambling crowns, or using up golden slime tokens you may have accumulated. However, not only is it a sink of crowns, it's a sink of time. The novelty of such a place wears off fast, especially in the clockworks. There's no action, no fun, and really no reward worth grinding the casinos for.

Casinos, as they stand, are something you would seek out and use while waiting. When you dive into the clockworks, you're there to fight things. Why should you waste time gambling your crowns when you can just fight on and get more crowns?

Basically, casinos have a few options to make them worthwhile.

Background: casinos have 4 slot machine types - crowns, crown/heart, crown/pickup, kleptolisk/crown. Each one has their own gimmick.

  • Pure crown slots have highest crown payouts, but average lower amount. You will only ever lose 100 crowns per pull on these machines.
  • Crown/heart slots have higher crown payout averages, but fairly often will pay out with a heart, meaning you're 200 crowns down if you were at full health.
  • Crown/pickup slots have mediocre crown payout averages, but have fairly high jackpots. These jackpots are more common than other slot jackpots, however the low averages and occasional pickup you'll land on nets a small amount of income.
  • Kleptolist/crown slots have a double-or-nothing sort of deal going on. You'll either win 400 crowns, or spend 200 crowns for nothing. These have a higher natural payout but also have a harsher penalty if RNG doesn't like you.
  • While these are cool, none of them are going to make you seek out casinos. That's what I'm here to suggest!

    FOR CASINOS AS THEY STAND

    • Unique rewards
    • Rewards can be be something like gear reskins attuned to winterfest. Win special materials from slot machines, use a "casino alchemy machine" inside the casino. Craft item! If materials are rare or the gear has a cute visual effect (think: shooting crowns) people will eat them up.

    • Hard-to-obtain reskins
    • Similar to unique rewards, provide reskins of hard to obtain items, such as mixmaster/orbit gun lines, celestial sabre/sweet dreams, celestial vortex, etc. An electrical coin shooter named "Shocking Shiny Shooter" would definitely end up on my grind list. I would say only have recipes for such things be obtainable, else do something similar to the unique rewards thing and have us win materials for them from casino slots.

    • Different prize wheels
    • Introduce more prize types to the prize wheel. There can be various versions, such as a "rarity" wheel that has stratum appropriate rarities, a "token" wheel that can have various non-boss tokens like forge sparks, primal sparks, and even event tokens such as ancient pages!
      Rarity wheels would be great for new and old players alike - simply seek out a tier appropriate casino and gamble!

    • High risk, high payout, limited machines
    • Add machines that have a % chance to break, but feature double rewards on good items, and zero rewards on the low payout ones. Broken machines cannot be repaired, so once they're broken, you're down one casino machine. Blame the gremlins, they claimed it was an upgrade.

    • Depth based rewards
    • Rewards increase the deeper into the clockworks you go. A depth 19 casino should not pay the same as a depth 28 casino.

    A CHANGE TO CASINOS

    • Move casinos to the end of levels, branching off after the elevator
    • We spend a lot of time waiting for elevators to change in the clockworks. Why not have a crown sink/gamble off to the side? Many levels would need a remake to make this viable, but the more places these are available the more often we'll see casinos as a good thing rather than a boring time waster.

    • Add casinos to treasure vaults
    • Treasure vaults have treasure. Casinos share the same music anyways. Have casinos be a permanent addition to treasure vault generation!

    • Have treasure boxes inside casinos, unlocked by winning a jackpot
    • If any player wins a jackpot, several green and red treasure boxes will spawn in the casino.

    • Generate casinos in more level types
    • Casinos should appear in devilish drudgeries, lichenous lairs, deconstruction zones, and compounds. These are all randomly generated level types, and 3 of the 4 are branching types so it should work out if themed correctly.

Any combination of these things should provide a better casino experience. Either the rewards can be made desirable or the casinos can be put into more helpful places. As it stands they are not desirable and are not in convenient locations.

Tue, 05/24/2016 - 21:13
#1
Abelisk's picture
Abelisk
+1

Agreed.

Tue, 05/24/2016 - 22:09
#2
Sciger's picture
Sciger

I would +1 all of these, they'd be fun additions to the casinos and make them much more appealing to try and grind for.

Maybe we can get a coin aura as an exceedingly rare prize? Crowns scattering all over like a sprinkle aura! ;D

Tue, 05/24/2016 - 22:35
#3
Fehzor's picture
Fehzor

I kind of like that the casino is just one small area that you must seek out/find as a distraction during the event after saving up slime coins for. A lot of our events feature the big bad- Tortodrones, Apocrea, Margrel, this one isn't like that and that's kind of nice. It plays well into the game and is sort of magical.

For it to really function it's going to need a unique reward like you said, possibly 4 unique rewards for the 4 different slots. Hard to obtain item reskins would be a good candidate for this, which you also mentioned so you're not like, totally off base. It's a crown sink at heart (i.e. you can use crowns!) but it also creates crowns. The trick is that newer players that can't afford to waste crowns (and need crowns for their own progression) receive crowns for free via slime coins while those of us with millions are free to dump that out for a chance at something amazing.

I guess the only thing I'd really change about the event (unless they want to go all out with it) would be to make the casino its own level. Since it is an event players are going to flip out and try to find it... and well, we already have 3ish events where you find the level segment containing the slime casino, or a room like the slime casino.. except with those it makes sense because you need to find as many cake rooms or punkin rooms as possible. With this you only need to find one casino to gamble on, then call it quits. Logically it should just be its own level that replaces say, a treasure vault on slime strata or something. Then it wouldn't even need an event, it would just kind of happen naturally every now and then. Given its nature, once every month or two for the level to spawn in the arcade would be about perfect. In the past this would have even let us go out of our way to create slime areas.

Tue, 05/24/2016 - 23:27
#4
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear

If you put the casino near the end, it should be possible to win elevator cycles.

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 00:54
#5
Nizada's picture
Nizada
Responding and stuff

@Fangel
I don't know if this is a good idea or not... Personally I found the casinos a shitty idea in the first place, but as long as they don't interfere with my gameplay I don't care. Just keep them out of my face! ^^

@Jagglypoof
Do not. Ever! Under any surcumstanses, or in any ways replase tresure waults with thise crappy, stupid and compleately useless piece of garbage mashines! They do not in any way improve the game or game experience, and is no more than a huge waste of time, and programming time...

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 01:15
#6
Neueragon's picture
Neueragon

what would be nice for the poorer people is to add prizes that are useful even if you do lose money. one suggestion thread suggested two day slot upgrades, why not have them get dropped here? even if you win, cr is still lost, while an energy item is obtained, maintaining the crown sink status. you could also add other shorter consumables like four hour krogmo coin boosters. new people would have something nice to try, while older people can either sell them or use them to extend their own slot upgrades.

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 02:00
#7
Sir-Pandabear's picture
Sir-Pandabear
@Neueragon

Weapon/Trinkets slots would certainly count as unique items! I'm all for it.

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 05:10
#8
Neueragon's picture
Neueragon
after having given this a bit more thought...

so far, a lot of people want a lot of different things from slot machines.
right now, we have four types, so lets keep it that way and make four new ones. all machines will have two types of jackpots, one that is rare and one that is extremely rare.

the first one is the pure money one. similar to the base coin one and the double-or-nothing, this one only outputs money (or possibly slime coins). but the odds are changed significantly. x2 to x4 get removed, kleptolisks are far more common, but you can win a lot more money.
jackpot: x2000
ultra-rare jackpot: lots of money, up to millions?

the next one is the slot and upgrade one. this one is similar to the pure money one, but is much more forgiving. money prizes are lower and dont go past x20. but in return you can get slot upgrades, krogmo coin boosters and even heat amps with varying lengths, going from only two days for slots to several months.
jackpot: year-long slot or large number of boosters
ultra-rare jackpot: permanent slot upgrade

a lot of people also want rarities to be in machines. a lot dont. so again, a new machine. similar to the slot one, it has low money prizes. what you can get depends on what depth you are on, for example giving you shinings on depth 21. you can also get sparks of life and orbs. but unlike fire crystals, you can also get orbs of previous tiers, such as finding 3* ones in T3, but not including 1* orbs.
jackpot: forge prize box
ultra-rare jackpot: several forge prize boxes

and lastly some people just like to look fabulous. this slot machine will give costumes, accessories and even the occasional reskin. the odds for this machine will be terrible, most of the time not giving you anything or only worthless stuff like the occasional lockbox (including iron). costumes are rare, accessories are even rarer, and reskins are the rarest, with one exception.
kinda jackpot: an item
jackpot: rare items, including reskin gear
ultra-rare jackpot: exclusive aura

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 05:47
#9
Nizada's picture
Nizada
@Neueragon

Why waste time fixing something that is useless, and don't make the game better anyways? If you want to waste time and money on being exited over nothing... Why not play a real lottery or casino? Casinos are specificly made. not to give you back what you pay for. We don't need them, and there are a lot of other usefull thing the Grey haven crew could spend their time doing(Like improving tank armour for example...).

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 05:57
#10
Neueragon's picture
Neueragon

why are you talking to me about that? I didnt make the thread. and no, I disagree with you.

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 07:59
#11
Bernston
@Fangel

Those ideas are nice, but there's some things to note...

1. Moving those casinos to the end of levels would be a great idea! It should save us trouble of finding them throughout the levels.

2. Yes! They should be in every Treasure Vault level! What better place to give out great rewards than in our own Treasure Vault levels? One thing, rewards won there would be double than what we could get in regular levels.

3. Rather than having limited machines that have a % of breaking & cannot be repaired, although the increased rewards are nice, how about instead there's a % chance the machine could break for 1 day, & we would not be able to use them for the rest of the day, while repairs are being made? That way, they could come back and try again. Moderation is important to counter endless gambling, even in real life.

4. I'm not sure about hard-to-obtain reskins. They're always boring.

5. My thought about such a unique reward is having new temporary multiplier pickups that grants us Knights double, triple, & even quadruple the amounts of Sparks of Lives, Crowns, Health, Fire Crystals, & even Alchemy Orbs. Items don't count to that.

6. There should be some limit to how much Crowns we can use in the Golden Coin slot machines. Using Golden Slime Coins are an exception to that, as we can spend them properly, but we must be cautious to how we will spend our Crowns in them each day. I'm thinking the limit should be 1000 Crowns, that is 200 per use, which is 5 uses. Once done, they cannot be spent more until tomorrow.

7. Different prize wheels, that's OK. Just as long as they all have the limits of how many Crowns we can spend daily. We can't go broke so quick.

8. Perhaps we could have chances of obtaining rare items in the wheels. Better to have so much to win than have little to win at all.

9. Agreed on every account. The deeper the depths, the higher our rewards should be. We should be getting lots more as we go deeper into the Clockworks.

10. Different slot machine types, that we can agree. They should be differed randomly, long as we still get something worth using them.

Moreover, I agree with those concerns of spending Crowns all willy-nilly & crazy-like, 'cause it's a reflection of real-life gambling. We need to have moderations to them.

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 12:57
#12
Nizada's picture
Nizada
@Neueragon

Because, well... Let me think.... Maybe.. Possibly.... I felt like... Asking you a question? Big deal right! :P

What exactly do you dissagree with? That Gray Haven have more important stuff to look at than casinos in Spiral Knights? That's... Really? o.O

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 16:38
#13
Fireherat's picture
Fireherat
+1

Need gear in those slots

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 17:22
#14
Fangel's picture
Fangel
Response!

how about instead there's a % chance the machine could break for 1 day
This is just per level. If you find another casino in another level or run the same depth and find another casino, then limited machines can show up again. This just makes you seek out multiple casinos instead of having one casino be all the content you'll ever see.

There should be some limit to how much Crowns we can use in the Golden Coin slot machines.
I think you're misunderstanding what a casino is used for. It's for gambling. Not letting us gamble takes away the point of the casino.

You seem to have concerns about a virtual casino that has shoddy rewards and is only around for a limited time. Spiral Knights has many more "gambling" systems in place that are all entirely optional, so having one that is not trying to hide it isn't any different. Set your own limits if you need to, the game shouldn't have to do that for you.

---

I don't know if this is a good idea or not
Whether or not you like casinos, they're here and will come back on their own time. Like all other optional content, you are free to ignore it, but at the same time just because you don't like it doesn't mean it can't be improved.
A casino that is fun to use with rewards that make us want to use them would be great for end-game people such as myself that have money to spare. Making it appeal to lower star knights, such as shortened slot upgrades, would be super cool and make casinos benefit all players equally.

Why waste time fixing something that is useless, and don't make the game better anyways
That is subjective. "Fixing" it implies making it not useless, and making it better for the game. As it stands it's not great, but that's why we suggest things we think will fix it. Saying "no i don't like it" isn't going to make the "useless" feature any more useful... It makes it remain useless. Seems counter productive.

---

@Neueragon
I'm digging all these ideas! It means you'll need to seek out more casinos for desired rewards, and succeeds in being more of a crown sink.

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 18:13
#15
Bernston
@Fangel

It's just that the Golden Slime Casino is very new to me, & I do get some points on your statements. I just don't want so many knights to spend too many Crowns to do the slot machines, & it's more or less concerning to those who want to complete their missions.

Moreover, I'm enjoying the new content we've been given!

Wed, 05/25/2016 - 19:13
#16
Dracora-Speaking's picture
Dracora-Speaking
Thoughts

Instead of in treasure vaults, make an entire level a single casino. So we'd have a possible ??? depth = Graveyard, Casino, or Vault. These "full-level-casinos" would always have all possible machine types. This level would be in addition to the fragments we currently encounter in Clockwork Tunnels. Cradle is largely composed of fragments, and I like to think the casino rooms we find are fragments of one giant casino that was whole at some point in the past, scattered through the Clockworks and time due to some...slime rivalry, perhaps. Or maybe it got hit by a lichen meteor. How unlucky!

But Fangel has a point. The casino feels like a time killer. Why not have a section of the Haven Arcade (I'm thinking the entire eastern area) redecorated as a casino, with all possible machines - but they only take GScoins? This would be fitting, especially since it's in an "arcade," a place of games. The Casino rooms randomly found in the tunnels could take coins or crowns as they do now. This way, we have the option of spinning wheels while waiting for LD or whatever, but only if we've invested somewhat in "stabbing slimes" (as Cronus suggested) and/or the player economy (AH/trading).

I'm 100% in support of the "rarity wheel" idea. I'd really love to see wheels that can reward pretty much anything the game's ever seen. No more will Spiral Knights suffer from such a huge amount of time-limited-promotion-content. This has always been discouraging to collectors and new players alike.

I also think the casino should be a permanent feature of the game, instead of transient like Nonna. If it is, we could simply have different wheels available during different weeks/months (with a few obvious wheels always available in the Haven Arcade), featuring things such as Birthstone recolors when obviously relevant. Wheels in the tunnels could be influenced by status levels (you could get Freeze Vial Bandoliers in Cooling Chambers, for example).

I think it would be funny if that "Royal Jelly" in one of the rooms was Impostoclaus with a lopsided crown instead of his holiday hat, still easily recognizable with his hair, pipe, and reddish coloring. Where do you think he gets the cash for granting those Winterfest wishes? By being a thief? NO, by being a professional thief. Let's put the Imposter in Impostoclaus ;p

Thu, 05/26/2016 - 08:31
#17
Neueragon's picture
Neueragon
fangel, thanks for liking my ideas

another issue is balancing of the machines. right now it seems like the machines are balanced very closely to the breakeven point, meaning you can easily keep playing without losing too much. that shouldnt be the case though.

to properly balance the machines, you should multiply the output times its chance and sum them all up. this number should be below 200cr, so you most of the time make a loss. this is very important for my pure cr machine, but less important for the others.
for the rarities and slots, you can simply take the CE price of the items in the supply depot (not counting fire crystals, those prices are terrible) and convert their value to cr, while taking a generous conversion, like 70cr per CE. this can be set generously because even if the machine is unfairly balanced to give out more than you put in, it still drains cr from the market (but it should still not be too good). and if the rarities are bound, they cant even be sold for profit. the slots and boosts should still be unbound though.
the last machine that gives special items would be harder to balance. you could look at the current prices for varying promo items and set costs similar for the machine ones, such as making plain recolours have a chance proportional to a worth of 30kcr, while reskin gear is around a million crowns. your idea for the materials could also be implemented as the low-cost prizes here.

another thing, jackpots (even the minor ones) should always break the machine. this gives our eager gambler a moment to bask in his success and a small break for them to tell everyone and their grandmother what awesome thing they just got.

Thu, 05/26/2016 - 13:23
#18
Wqkipedia's picture
Wqkipedia
Hmm

What if we had golden slime armor? Maybe it could be a mercurial mail reskin. It would be so cool to run around as a little golden slime.

Golden Slime armor could be made by new materials in the wheels and crafted in casino alchemy machines. I would just spend days spinning wheels for this.

Make this dream come true!

Thu, 05/26/2016 - 14:24
#19
Neueragon's picture
Neueragon

you know what? we actually never had armor reskins. kind of makes sense because costumes, but it would still be neat to have costume pieces that can also be unbound and have stats of their own. so why not release a couple different pieces?

lets see, the casino is populated by various slimes, kleptolisks, some undead and a couple devilites.
first of all, gold slime gear would be great. mercurial reskin makes sense, because it is one of the better jelly armors. normal or node style?
kleptolisk would be next, just a colour swap on the armor and a differently shaped helmet from a base chroma set. this should be a virulisk reskin.
we already have undead-themed gear, so skip that.
devilites are another interesting thing. maybe take the 2* skelly and retexture it?

Fri, 05/27/2016 - 18:20
#20
Ultimastrike's picture
Ultimastrike
Promo Boxes as Casino Jackpot?

I had an idea which I ruminated with Vohtarak over.

I was thinking about a Casino Prize Box that we could get promo boxes from. It'd be an extremely rare chance(1%), and within you would get 5 random Promo Boxes from the past(Rose, Solstice, Equinox, Hunter, etc.) since there's no promo at the moment. The rule would be that the promo boxes and the Casino Prize Box would be bound, and items within the promo boxes would be unbound.

Sat, 05/28/2016 - 05:48
#21
Hypo-Valence's picture
Hypo-Valence
So like the recent prize

So like the recent prize box?

Make it a little rarer (since there'd be so many people spinning the wheel, heh) and that would be a great idea.

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