Spiral Knights - Why is there still no communication between the devs and playerbase?

Why is there still no communication between the devs and playerbase?

69 replies [Last post]

Mon, 09/12/2016 - 08:41

#51

Melonfish

Politicians and straw feminists talk too much.

Lethal-Bunduru: GH has no incentive to talk to players, because they are not-for-profit.

I believe that is a poor correlation.

All that means is that you should enjoy the game for what it is [...] and not expect updates.

That is neither all that it means, nor a proper conclusion of morality to entail what this means at all.

(excellent game, but 5 years of playing game would get you frustrated I am sure)

I have thorough certainty that the amount of play time alone is not the reason for the general frustration. Fatigue would me a more sound consequence for playing for so long, however.

and not expect updates.

I believe that is also a poor correlation, considering the circumstances.

If you truly get affected this much by a simple video game where you need to type an essay, then perhaps that is a sign that you need to do something better with your life.

If you truly get affected this much by said essays, I recommend that you properly overview and understand the situation as well as how it plays out before speaking your mind with the intention of judging the interests of the people involved.

Failing that, I also suggest that you read actual essays for legitimately simple video games such as Tetris and Pac-Man. For the sake of comparison. The premise of gameplay for Spiral Knights is quite simple, yet the arguable exception of everything else that is not largely overweighs this notion. There is very easily much to discuss about the game in depths, more poignantly in ways that the local Wiki cannot.

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 01:06

#52

Fangel

well well wellllll

I'm gonna skip over the argument bits here because I have insider news and experience about the wonders of cutters and I need to share them.

Not all gremlins and jellies are scary to fight with a Cutter;
I must ask if you have ever attempted to fight gremlins or jellies with a cutter and not used it like a brandish. The "hit and run" tactic is a secondary tactic for cutters, and thus relying on something that is a primary tactic for a much more powerful weapon (acheron) seems to be an improper use of said weapon. I can do a quick rundown of why those monster families are terrible to fight with cutters:

Both attack rather quickly when you draw near, disallowing for long combos
Slimes will always track you, disallowing for "cutter dancing blind spots"
Gremlins are unpredictable and will often walk out of range or attack you out of nowhere. Thwackers are huge on this, and due to the short range of the cutter you'll often be hit by that 360 degree attack

Cutters shine through their quick hits and long combos. With enemies like zombies and pretty much all constructs, the long combos are amazing due to their slow nature and natural blind spots. You can hit a lumber with a full cutter combo by turning off auto target and flying around them. With enemies like beasts and fiends, the quick hits allow you to not get caught off guard, and with fiends especially, allows you to flinch them before they can get a pop shot on you. The lower health on fiends also means you aren't wailing on them as much, and can move onto the next one quicker. Since beasts group up the cutter is great for pulling one out of the crowd, especially since most beasts have long wind-up times on their attacks and have a narrow area of affect.

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 13:10

#53

Draycos

Me and Fangel had a nice little chat over Discord about cutters; I'll try to keep this succinct..

Regardless of how welcome damage tweaks would be, they are nonetheless mechanically weak as well. The reason they do badly against gremlins and jellies is because they force you to back off periodically no matter how good your timing is. While cutters are fast, they don't have tools for creating distance. Ironically, the standard 3-hit combo brandishes use is actually BETTER for these enemies, since you can "charge cancel" and step back the tiny bit of distance you need and finish your string of attacks. Cutters' speed works against them here, giving you a smaller window to continue with your low-range swipes.

According to Fangel (I've got limited experience with cutters personally), WHB and DVS differ mechanically- the former flinches more often, but the latter is faster. Is this dichotomy bad? Not particularly if you ask me. The difference makes sense when considering the enemies they'd be geared towards, and it would be interesting to see them do comparatively against enemies they overlap. Flinching Gremlins is a big deal, but not flinching Beasts makes them more predictable. It would be more numerically effective to use the super-effective weapons as guided, but as I've said multiple times now, diversity in player behavior is what makes the game.

While our preferences differed a bit concerning DVS and its normal damage, we shared a "user, not the tool" mentality. Cutters having gun-like behavior to their movements would be hugely helpful- I envisioned them tracking the enemy as normal if you input no movement, but allowing you free movement if you wished, eliminating the need for "charge cancelling" movements while keeping the effects as a cornerstone of the weapon. The stop-and-go playstyle this exemplifies, taking heavy inspiration from the Rocket Hammer and its design, would allow it to have a place in the game as another strong but technical weapon. Counteract low range with tight movements for the highest single-target damage basic sword attacks can offer! It doesn't have to be just a utility weapon.

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 13:52

#54

Fangel

yess

Cutters have extreme potential and, honestly, are so very close to being a weapon that is "defaultly good", rather than their current state which is underpowered and then actually pretty good in the right hands (with as many boosts as you can get).

The biggest thing I believe after our chat is that cutters rely heavily on movement. Should it be movement speed, gun-style movements, or something in-between, cutters rely heavily on getting in, hitting quickly, then getting out. The biggest problem they have right now is "getting out", except against monsters that aren't as dangerous when you're in their face (ie. beasts and fiends). Should free movement be granted, the weapon will become a completely new playstyle - not just another utility belt filler.

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 14:36

#55

Zincamania-Forum

Didn't read the whole thread,

Didn't read the whole thread, but...

Giving it a proper damage type to suit that (and Dread Venom getting shadow damage perhaps) would actually be a big deal, since damage affects how often things flinch. See where that would lead?

Please no, don't ruin DVS

The day DVS gets specialized damage is the day I will reinstall SK to do a quitting sale

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 14:46

#56

Draycos

Why would that be a problem? Shadow damage is bad against undead and fiends, which you can reliably use a WHB for instead..

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 15:39

#57

Melonfish

Curse may be a mixed bag.

Why not simply add a standalone Shadow-type Cutter to the ensemble? The one Phantoms carry in Graveyards is ideal.

Again, Dread Venom Striker is simply just a sword seeped in poison. I too have no desire for its damage type to be modified.

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 15:49

#58

Draycos

Again, used by assassins. But that's besides the point. Reason I'm so keen on giving it Shadow instead of just having an alternative is because gremlins are weak to poison and etc., but then again, maskeraith quills are a thing so all that matters is damage so whatever just give me a shadow cutter pls

With the same logic, Fang of Vog should have cutter behavior. Which, actually, I am 100% in favor of

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 16:02

#59

Melonfish

Assassins are not necessarily evil.

I have been wondering about the Fang of Vog on this front for a long time as well. The abilities of that weapon seem to be more of a match for what could have been a rescaled replica of Vanaduke's mace than the Fang of Vog itself. By extension, it could very well be the same for the supposed Heart of Ice weapon, but this is nothing more than speculation of my part.

Tue, 09/13/2016 - 21:42

#60

Delecated

RE: Draycos

What gives anybody a right to anything, you BUNGLER?

Everyone has the rights to do anything by default. It is greater society that restricts and ensures them, for better or for worst.

But that is besides the point. I was curious as to why you resorted to insults when it makes no logical sense to do so in your argument. So, I asked an indirect question in hopes of receiving a complex answer.
However, I realized too late that I had failed to read the mood.

Thus, I sincerely apologize for my misstep.

Though, I will inform you that the proper term to refer to a person of failure; in accordance to the local dialect, and holding the connotation of utmost severity, is: “BOOCHER”.

...Ye landlubber.

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 08:50

#61

Ibuyitems

Well i'd call sk from now

Well i'd call sk from now Costume Knights, Since the most thing Sk focusing on is Promos, And the best thing that the promos can't come with any weapons, Like the Equinox. That would be perfect tbh, like in every 2 events 1 comes with weapon/gear.
Thats better than come with accessories/costumes, Also the "event" the slime casino. it was all about costumes/accessories ikr the slime crushers/and the walls came but well it isn't that useful.

And once you go to haven You'll see those 2. that 1 with full accessorized set, who everybody thinks he's awesome. while he's p2w and uses AT.
And that 1 who's really that good at PVE/PVP but he isn't into making sets looks very pretty with very expensive items.

Something that Sk must do is removing AT from LD. Its verrrryy bad most of players stoped playing LD because of AT.
Its okay if its on at PVE, i mean who'd care if its on at vana or anything lol.

I just hope that Sk can come with more ideas, and listen to the players, All of them, and i wish if they make, like monthly thread where a devo asks the players, what they're thinking about, and what they think that the devos add to the game, It will be pretty good,

And those who're talking about Ads, Since Sk is old game, it would be hard to make ads for it.

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 09:30

#62

Dats-Mah-Boi

@Melonfish Elaborate your

@Melonfish

Elaborate your replies. Otherwise, they are worthless.

GH has no incentive to talk because they are not for profit. That is true, unless you can prove it wrong. Nobody talks to people just to make them feel better and give them warm fuzzies, unless they are an airhead. People talk to others if they want something. Information, money, ideas...job creators, Jack! But since GH is not for profit, they do not need anything from us players. Sure, server money, but that's it. I would be interested in hearing your take on this, but as far as I am concerned, dev communication is just another suggestion, not a necessity.

@Dewyy You might as well succumb to the AT life. I used to be anti AT, but stopped caring after some realizations. 1) AT will never go away, because GH has no incentive to remove it. 2) There are more important things in life than AT in a game. Not much, but a few things. Also, not using AT won't get you laid, won't get you a job, won't pay the bills, won't make you cool, won't cure herpes, won't get you jacked, and will keep you forever alone.

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 12:45

#63

Delecated

What's this?!

Nobody talks to people just to make them feel better and give them warm fuzzies, unless they are an airhead.

Are you saying that it is wrong to do so?

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 15:25

#64

Melonfish

@Lethal-Bunduru

Good thing elaboration is my general point of interest, as the forum would have a little more push for solving logical clogs in doing so. At the very least, with all due respect, a little more push than belittling people via projected comparison to social standards for fleeting success could manage. This said, I would like to make myself clear that I will do so because you plainly asked me to and not because of your stated delusion that you would be right about my responses carrying no weight otherwise.

If the current development phase of Spiral Knights is not for the sake of profits, then claiming that there is absolutely no reason for the team to provide communication between them and the playerbase would result in a stark contradiction being drawn on why the game is still being operated as we speak. The relief of freedom and control over the game after long years of publisher constraints is by no way taking away from the incentive to keeping the playerbase invested into the game when we know for a fact that they still work on keeping the game running for the players.

As a matter of fact*, this position presents far more valuable importance in keeping the community sticking together for the future of this game as it is largely evident that after five years of gradual stagnation there is something that steers both GH and the players back towards Spiral Knights. Witlessly leaving the game active without concrete plans or compassion for the players and the game itself would be merely wasting away ressources and frustrating everyone, waiting for the game to meet an uneventful end with nothing to gain in the aftermath.

If anything, having administrated a barrier to deny open communication marks approximatively the point where the quality of the game, the community as well as the development team has begun to significantly diminish on a progressive scale. I believe there is little need to deliver a recap on the consequences and implications that have resulted from the applied policy.

*(or perhaps it should follow as "The fact of the matter is that"...?)

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 16:51

#65

Fangel

translation for those that don't speak technicalese:

What Melonfish is saying, if I read it correctly, is that "by becoming non-profit they should put more emphasis on the part of their company that isn't profit - ie, the playerbase".

While I do agree, I'm more than certain that the game masters would love to chat about what we already do know, as despite publishers letting them go, they still are signed under non-disclosure agreements which probably are set to expire at a set date which hasn't passed yet. The few times I've caught a game master hanging around, they are much more chatty about life, and have a tendency to flee once 30 people show up all demanding their questions be answered. It's hard for me to follow a mob of questions, so I assume it'd be hard for them to answer even the simplest of questions when they're getting 6 questions a second.

Wed, 09/14/2016 - 20:03

#66

Revivify

But even so, the lack if

But even so, the lack if communication is disheartening for the player base. At the very least, devs can affirm the idea that there will be future updates.

Thu, 09/15/2016 - 06:11

#67

Midnight-Dj

I didn't choose to be edgy, but edginess chose me.

@Melon

Witlessly leaving the game active without concrete plans or compassion for the players and the game itself would be merely wasting away ressources and frustrating everyone, waiting for the game to meet an uneventful end with nothing to gain in the aftermath.

I wonder if anyone ever considered the scenario in which GH had no future plans for the game and is simply too afraid to tell its players, and would rather leave them in ignorance and simply wait for discussions like this to fade away. Although judging by OOO (GH's predecessor for the uninitiated) 's past behavior, I would almost say the silence is a way to not keep people too hyped up for the update. I mean, gunner update was a flop and our expectation were super high when Nick first announced it, but after his departure, OOO simply kept silence and released the update after almost a year. OOO might have not have wanted to release it fearing balancing issue (and they should) but still released it to keep the game fresh and satisfy the player base, whose complain, for once, outlasted the developer's patience. And judging from no announcement for bomber or swordsmen (one day winmillion, one day) update, I think it is not too far fetched to say that at some point in SK's life cycle an update that big simply no longer warranted the effort in question even if it is in hot demand by a relatively small, but still somewhat alive fan base. This is also probably the same reason why there hasn't been another DLC after OCH.

Say what you will about my predictions and extrapolations, but I think it is reasonable to rethink on the past events and compare what caused their similarities, those who don't learn from history are after all doomed to repeat it. Remember Mass Effect 3's ending back lash? Yeah, bioware's silence pissed off only reaper knows how many fans and they were forced to patch up the endings. Gunner update felt like one of those patches a developer would add to just quell the raging masses (for a while at least). And don't forget, GH is a LLC now, Limited Liability Company, perhaps they made the distinction for a purpose? To shift away the burden? Or to avoid the liability of not handling the game well?

Hey, that is just my two cents, Poe's law be damned.

Thu, 09/15/2016 - 09:27

#68

Petater

Nice to know they consider promos as content. I propose we rename the game into pretty pretty princess idle simulator next.

Thu, 09/15/2016 - 16:56

#69

Melonfish

Knights in chess travel over other pieces by rocket jumping.

This may or may not have been sarcasm of your part, Petater, but I would like to reiterate for everyone involved that a promo is short for a promotion. In this sense, it would just be as well to consider most cases being the variety of costumes having been promoted.

As for the sentiment of said hint of sarcasm, it would be more worthwhile to concentrate focus on content that is neither fleeting nor inconsequential that will undeniably warrant a promotion of their own. The latest update on the Guild Halls is one such example, considering the timelapse between its previous few promotions and then. The addition of a fully interactible chess game within Spiral Knights without the requirement for coding a full game mode or programming rules and AI patterns into it is a simple yet highly effective move. No pun intended.

A direct question to the moderating team of my part, were there more ambitiously oriented designs or purposes for the chess game set to be in the game between the inclusion of their game files and the inclusion of the content for the players that decidely have not been met?

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Why is there still no communication between the devs and playerbase?