Spiral Knights - Why is there still no communication between the devs and playerbase?

Why is there still no communication between the devs and playerbase?

69 replies [Last post]

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 16:13

Draycos

What is the deal with this radio silence? I would be considerably less bitter about Grey Havens doing absolutely nothing of substance besides gambling events and aesthetics if they explained why. I would be considerably more likely to support the game if fan-favorite mechanics like health-sharing revives, shared consumables, and the old UI were at least addressed (absolutely nobody I know prefers the new systems over the old, the only points of debate being mist energy and missions).

Even in regards to those substantial changes, what's the deal with absurd things like Wild Hunting Blade still dealing normal damage with Beast+ High, or attacks still having damage caps in the form of "invincitinks" (with random choice in limitation- shards and tortoguns have hit limits but D.Retribution and etc. don't, even when the design is similar)? Why is the Kataclysm event still so horribly handled (we could at least have party invite functionality back; there was a small bit of fun with working together as a guild and suffering for each others' sake)? Why do some sprite ultimates deal literally single-digit damage? How hard could it possibly be to implement these tweaks? And if it somehow IS impossible, why doesn't GH tell their players?

A few months ago I was pretty excited that the game was finally changing hands, as if that'd mean the game would finally get traction, but it feels like it's been left to stagnate- intentionally- which is a huge waste. This game, simple as it is, was very entertaining despite its myriad quirks and optimization issues.

What the heck is going on here?

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 16:26

Melonfish

I have no objection or remark to make for the rest, however.

You had me up until you called the Wild Hunter Blade absurd for doing normal damage with a specific monster slaying property.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 16:37

Draycos

It would be fine on paper if that damage boost wasn't capped at Max just like any other boost, but it IS. Argent Peacemaker and Sentenza at least give you the courtesy of having the effective specialized damage (though they need a tune up too!).

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 16:53

Melonfish

Elemental/Shadow damage weapons when?

They were given those bonuses in response to making those two guns do pure singular damage instead of the unique Piercing/Elemental and Piercing/Shadow bullets because the formula for dealing non-normal dual-typed damage was (and might still be) heavily flawed when it comes to what should have been neutral damage, which ended up resulting in dealing less damage than they should have.

I also believe that the damage output is not what gives the Cutter weapon the most trouble, but rather how it's intended to deliver longer chains of hits on enemies but is designed to be subtly disadvantaged for this specific purpose due to the knockback it deals every hit. Unless you corner an enemy, you will want to be concerned about advancing toward the enemies simultaneously while striking them in order to catch up with your attacks. When you have a weapon that works best for hit-and-run tactics, it is simply no good when you do end up running more than hitting.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 17:07

Draycos

I understand why the Antiguas were given the damage boosts; split damage is definitely causing problems (see also: Acheron with damage boosts dealing more vs. beasts than piercing swords with similar boosts). The point is WHB is normal damage with beast+ and those are elemental with undead+ / shadow with gremlin+ and so forth.

You described it as a "hit and run" weapon; I believe it's best used with a literal interpretation of that! Cutters weren't designed for attacking an enemy into other enemies, but singling one out and simultaneously pushing it away and moving away from others. From a mechanical standpoint, this would work very well against beasts and fiends (oh boy what damage type are those weak against?!). Giving it a proper damage type to suit that (and Dread Venom getting shadow damage perhaps) would actually be a big deal, since damage affects how often things flinch. See where that would lead?

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 17:33

Melonfish

A staff and/or dev is very welcome to have a say in this.

I agree very much that it is very excellent at flanking and separating a single enemy. However, as much as you can reasonably give the weapon more power than it currently has (which I do welcome), it does not change the fact that its long attack combo makes its last flinching hit come into play very late compared to other weapons. This latent ability to shut down an opening for an enemy to strike back in general is what makes hit-and-run and waiting for the right timing to go for a full chain crucial. Combined with the knockback per hit out in the open, while in practice fairly inconsequential, this can make a diffference between a safe approach and a daunting matchup during the heat of battle.

I understand where you are coming from and going at. I believe, however, that the realistic best case for a cutter to do piercing damage is through its jagged hooks on the blade which, while pointy enough to punch through, are largely more influencial in shredding than perforating proper. I would see to it meaning a portion of the normal damage (preferably after applying the aforemented damage buff) into a slight but humble helping of piercing damage. It is a small advantage, but I do not think that a cutter weapon should be so weak as to be extremely disadvantaged against some monster families due to an extreme specialty against the intended targets by making the weapon purely piercing.

The Dread Vile Striker is neither filled with evil nor made of unstable materials. It really is just a sword seeped with poison.

However, I believe the best improvement on the cutter weapons would be to greatly lessen the knockback dealt and maybe even allow them to pull an enemy toward into your range, due to the jagged edge, as you strike it. This would allow a knight to have a more natural control over an enemy's standing and movements on the field.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 18:08

Draycos

If we're talking mechanical

If we're talking mechanical changes instead of just damage fixes..

I would give cutters ramping damage, each hit of the combo more powerful than the last, since beasts and fiends are often spaced out and also very vulnerable after attacking (or at least easily interrupted) .. but also free movement while attacking similar to guns and bombs. This would give it ways to manage its own knockback and really stress the "pick one enemy and beat it up" mindset! Rocket Hammer already fills the niche I'm proposing for these, and it's the perfect kind of "strong"- requires care to use properly with a fitting payoff. As opposed to, you know, spamming Brandish charges or something. Ick.

The design of the weapon doesn't matter in its damage type- we do slashing motions with pointed rapiers already, snort. WHB would not suffer horribly from doing badly against constructs and jellies because Dread Venom Striker would pick up the slack with different damage. It's not odd thematically since it's blatantly called an assassin's blade. Fits the game's pacing, too; it would be very useful in both T2 boss stratums. People would have a different choice besides "Nightblade".

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 18:37

Melonfish

An alternative to Nightblade? Cautery Sword.

Ramping damage for cutters is a great idea. But free movement, while I love the sound of that, holds many more implications than what you suggest that could very well extend to all other sw-

Rocket Hammer already fills the niche I'm proposing for these, and it's the perfect kind of "strong"- requires care to use properly with a fitting payoff.

Oh, well if you're refering to the vast mobility the rocket hammer grants, then that is a different story.

Said slashing motion would actually be ineffective at both doing piercing damage and being useful for close-combat past the tipping point were it not for the gameplay segregation.

WHB would not suffer horribly from doing badly against constructs and jellies because Dread Venom Striker would pick up the slack with different damage.

From the way I am reading this, WHB would not suffer from doing poorly against these enemies by not being used at all in favor of using something better suited for that situation? I am sorry, but I would like to ask for a rephrasing of your part.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 18:57

Draycos

ahaha cautery sword exists i completely forgot about that piece of trash

I meant exactly what I said. Having limited numbers is not a problem when you're allowed to swap and carry multiple weapons. Specialized damage having limits encourages players to gear up differently for each enemy type. You COULD use variants of Blaster for everything- why do that when you could use an elemental Alchemer, Tundrus for shadow, an Antigua for pierce (and that's when limiting yourself to guns).. Game stays fresh this way!

Normal damage is ancient baggage now that arsenal stations are on nearly every depth, ironically only being useful at the very start and very end of the game (because you're strapped for funds and later because the Swarm exists). We've got more than enough viable normal-dmg weapons. Swords are starved for piercing damage much more than anything else; I guarantee you that making WHB pierce will hurt nobody.

.. There really should be a special-damage version of Troika. When are we getting Maulos' mace? It's even in the files mutter grumble mutter

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 19:08

Midnight-Dj

All of this empty talk about weapon buffs, and the two of you are forgetting the main topic. Why are the devs ignoring the player base?

Simple, as it stands, SK won't go through any more major changes, if GH is anything to go by, they are the remnant of the original developer staffs of this game, there is only a dozen of them and they mostly have other jobs to worry about (which makes sense since SK's revenue can't keep the light on). Stagnancy is to be expected, SK is now a museum piece, kept in a comatose state, slowly decay into obscurity...

It is the 3rd Millennium. For more than five years Spiral Knights has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of java. It is the foremost of MMO by the will of its players, and master of thousands of P2W players by the might of their inexhaustible wallets. It is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with shifting update schedules and radio silence. It is the Carrion Lord of the MMO scene for whom a thousand of hours of human lives are sacrificed every day, so that it may never truly die.

Yet even in its deathless state, SK continues its eternal vigilance. Mighty prize boxes cross the micro-transaction infested miasma of the internet, the only route between distant player bases, their way lit by paypal, the legal manifestation of the SK's will. Vast armies of fanboys give battle in SK's name on uncounted websites. Greatest amongst its soldiers are the GMs, the overpowered administrators, bio-engineered to only give the player base cheeky replies and little else. Their comrades in arms are legion: the data slaves and their countless research sheets, the ever vigilant newbies, and the fan artists, to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from other better MMO games, their own self assurance, the need for more monetization - and worse.

To support Spiral Knights in such times is to spend untold thousands. It is to support the most hopeless cause imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the hope of new DLCs and gear updates, for so much has been canceled, never to be developed again. Forget the promise of cheaper crystal energy and caring about the fan base, for in the Grey Havens HQ there is only silence, prize boxes and timed events. There is no fun amongst the MMORPG, only an eternity of paying and grinding, and the laughter of former players who left SK to play better games.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 19:26

#10

Draycos

Because it's fun. Neither of us forgot the main topic. Doofus.

I don't care how few of them are available to work on the game; it doesn't excuse them (they certainly have the manpower to implement old slot machine files, snort). They have nothing to lose by improving the game; give people a reason to pay and not a wall to pay their way past. That's why the old days were good. I don't know why they ever moved away from elevator passes; they were very player-friendly.

If they were willing to admit these new things are bad things and bring back what everybody loved and work from there, they'd regain and RETAIN a lot of their playerbase. That's why this is frustrating- it shouldn't be nearly as much work as making things from scratch. Hell, health revives could work even with the Sparks we have now- just make emergency revs solo-only. It's so simple it hurts.

They shouldn't be praised for keeping this game in a museum when they're letting it die. Like stuffing some old guy in a sarcophagus and saying "this is an ancient emperor, please don't touch".

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 19:29

#11

Melonfish

What about Vanaduke's mace, though?

@Draycos: The starvation in piercing blades is where I would call for jousting lances and spears. I believe their introduction to the game is a higher priority than refitting cutters toward the likeness of their breakthrough. No wordplay premeditated.

@Midnight-Dj: For you to call this line of discussion an empty husk and us devoid of focus toward the topic when I and Draycos speak very thoroughly of the state of the game with strong regards to the devs acting accordingly to our concerns as members of the community is decidely all the more uncunningly arrogant as it is followed by a rethorical voicing of your usual mocking poetry. You sing of great disparity when the present distress calls for reunion.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 19:33

#12

Draycos

Vanaduke's mace is too hot to handle. Literally.

It'd be a higher priority to make cool new things if fixing old things wasn't so much easier.

.. Using an Almirian Crusader's lance, except with huge lunging motions and not the Flourish-esque moves they pull- that'd be cool.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 19:41

#13

Melonfish

It is as searing as the Heart of Ice is bone-chilling. Thusly.

Old things to be fixed with ease such as the danger room in Jelly Farm and the invisibility of attacking Dust Bunnies, Glop Drops and Scarabs on the minimap, I am sure.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 19:47

#14

Midnight-Dj

Pessimism level restored

@Draycos

They shouldn't be praised for keeping this game in a museum when they're letting it die.

Indeed they shouldn't however the status quo stands, not any amount of discussion on our part is ever going to change this game if the developer says nothing. I am sure the reason why they are not making any huge promise or update is, well, SK is just that, a rotting corpse, you can devise all of the methods in the world to keep the corpse from completely fading away, but in the end the amount of effort require to revive said corpse back to life is not the worth the effort.

We can stand here all day saying how this game could be better, but let's be honest with ourselves here, none of those things are likely going to happen. For better or worse. And if you are still so infatuated with the need to talk about gears that will never be fixed, go to suggestion or arsenal sub forum.

@Melon

You sing of great disparity when the present distress calls for reunion.

And how is what you are discussing going to bring reunion back to the game? Do you even know why OOO went all out with their prize boxes right before they dropped this game for good? Is because to both SEGA and OOO, SK have outlived its monetary use, it is not longer profitable to run that game which is why they threw the server now to GH, and here you are, wanting a group of people who are using their own wallet to keep the game alive to improve a lost cause.

I do not sing of great disparity, I am singing of the end, I want SK to go down at least in a dignified way as supposed to fading into nothingness.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 20:07

#15

Draycos

See, the problem with this boringly negative and apologetic approach is that there's still obvious monetization going on here with the continued appeal to gambling addiction. If they were actually doing this out of goodwill, things would be awfully different. Their recent actions and lack thereof aren't indicative of charity OR smart business, which is why I'm so frustrated. If they manned up and chose or explained what is holding them back, it'd be a lot comfier for literally everyone. Didn't people have that silly thread where they pledged to buy so-and-so hundreds of dollars' worth of energy if they, say, fixed Shards or the Kataclysm? There is no shortage of demand.

I'm honestly pretty cynical about this myself; I'm really only spending the time to talk about this as a means of procrastination. I should have started drawing an hour ago. The difference between us is I'm reasonably cynical and you're unreasonably cynical. Snort.

And nah, your mini-modding is cute and all, but I'm comfy discussing weapons where they're tangentially relevant. No harm in it, especially with the pace of these forums nowadays.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 20:39

#16

Midnight-Dj

The light is not the only thing broken inside.

See, the problem with this boringly negative and apologetic approach is that there's still obvious monetization going on here with the continued appeal to gambling addiction.

I would say it is more of a rehashing of the old boxes so people can still get the stuff they might have missed. Monetization is more of side bonus than anything. Like I said before, GH are shelling out their own wallet to keep the servers up (and this is just one of the MMOs they are keeping alive), our 'contribution' is just a side bonus, nothing more.

Didn't people have that silly thread where they pledged to buy so-and-so hundreds of dollars' worth of energy if they, say, fixed Shards or the Kataclysm? There is no shortage of demand.

Money is not omnipotent, time should also be considered when it comes to developing something (you should know that) and I won't say 500 so and so players wanting a shard fix for a few hundred dollars is a huge demand. And like I said before, most of the GH staff have other things in life they need to be more worried about.

The difference between us is I'm reasonably cynical and you're unreasonably cynical. Snort.

I failed to see how anything I said was unreasonable, in fact, I found the fact you and melon are still so eagerly wanting this game to receive frequent tweaks to be a ludicrous demand, considering the current status of the game.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 21:27

#17

Draycos

Seeing the boxes as a generosity is reaching really hard. If that were true, how do you explain the Mixmaster and similar? /shrug

You think that I was referring just to the some-hundred dollar ransom when I was referencing that, not the near unanimous support it got, people chipping in, et cetera? That's exactly what I mean by "unreasonably cynical". I refuse to believe that turning off invincitinks would take a lot of time if you want to go with that bag of horrors of an argument.

Please don't pretend I'm asking for pre-collapse speeds. I'm fine with infrequent tweaks- we don't even have those. Honestly, being defeatist and contrarian is fine by me, but not when you're being silly like this.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 21:50

#18

Midnight-Dj

@Draycos

Seeing the boxes as a generosity is reaching really hard. If that were true, how do you explain the Mixmaster and similar?

They are not generosity, they are fairness, everyone gets a chance to spin on the roulette, and if you are STILL crying over RNG and the fact you can't get something that is extremely rare in a game, all I can say is: get over it.

You think that I was referring just to the some-hundred dollar ransom when I was referencing that, not the near unanimous support it got, people chipping in, et cetera?

I am sorry, but how is support or a click of button ever helped this game in any way? Money helps, but I thought at this point people should know by now that clicking a 'like' or 'support' button won't change anything, not for SK at least. And besides, forum only makes up a tiny portion of the player base, so 'unanimous' is bit of an exaggeration.

I refuse to believe that turning off invincitinks would take a lot of time if you want to go with that bag of horrors of an argument.

Now you are just grasping the straws, like I said before, we don't even know the amount of time the GH staff have on this game, so there is no point in arguing what you want is feasible or not.

Please don't pretend I'm asking for pre-collapse speeds. I'm fine with infrequent tweaks- we don't even have those.

Actually we do, GH has been fixing what they can, I would give you the details but not when you're being silly like this.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 21:53

#19

Melonfish

Believe in our bonds.

Surely improving what you call lost causes would negate the views on SK outliving its profitability. Small actions with a greater impact during the long term. Maybe it is the better course of action than to simply give up after having relied on short-term profit ploys through a massive amount of time that could have been spent to make up for the shortcomings.

People use incompetence for disbelief of one's abilities to change the outcome, but that is a misconception to me. To be competent is to apply the best of each one and one another for better results, but more importantly it is the willingness to compete. I have believed for all those years and still believe even now that the team can do the right things for the game and fulfill its needs. Yet, despite the ease and importance of the things they should have been doing, there is far too little spirit and determination in achieving them to be seen. They could not have been wanting to discontinue the game, otherwise they would have done so far long ago. This worries everyone.

This is why we have this thread. This is why we reach out for them to provide their input. There is still time. We are waiting for these pushes, no matter how small, to become greater. As great as the promised scale for Spiral Knights to achieve. Nick believes in the team to fulfill this dream too.

Midnight-DJ, I have to tell you honestly. To wait for the chance to let go of the pain when it should serve as the driving force for pushing the game forward and away from a dreaded outcome, to judge a desired direction by its likelyhood when its importance lies in the fact that it is yet left untreaded and to think of the effort in pushing for improvements as disconcerting clearlty point at you being more dismissive and distant than you deign to admit. Yet you wish for the game to meet a fate that is best for it. I agree that your cynism is unreasonable in that regard. You have been around with the community for so long, you can do better. Not better at speaking the truth, but rather at speaking truly.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 22:14

#20

Draycos

@Melonfish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXWhvaXpolQ

That's interesting; a second ago you were saying monetization was just a side-thing; now you're saying it isn't generosity, which is indirectly agreeing with me when I say they're stuck in no-man's-land. And, as always, white-knighting for terrible design choices. Because you can, not because it's right. You must treat this like a little game. So do I. Snort.

The ol "forum just makes up a slice of the playerbase" joke of an argument isn't going to cut it either. Talk to anybody you can about shard bombs and the Kat event. If anybody says they like how they've degenerated, I will be surprised. But that would be reasonable, and right now you're not trying to be reasonable, deconstructing my words and not their meaning.

I'm grasping at straws? If they were super lazy they wouldn't even have to remove the mechanic, they could just set the hit limit to something absurd. Even if it's a per-enemy deal like damage (thanks for teaching me this, V), the code would have to be HORRIFYING to be so incomprehensible that it'd take more than a few minutes. Are you trying to tell me they have so little time they can't spare a few minutes to make entire weapon lines and items viable?

Small bugfixes and tweaks to aesthetics, as I mentioned in passing in the first post. We have had extremely little directly-gameplay-related changes for years. I read the patch notes. Nice try, you CLOWN. You BOUNDER.

SCOUNDREL.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 22:23

#21

Melonfish

Flattering.

Now, let us not resort to name-calling for the purpose of taunting or tormenting, no matter how amusing they sound.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 22:26

#22

Draycos

BLOCKHEAD.

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 23:52

#23

Jazzberry-Jam

I would be happy

I would be happy if they just talked. Not necessarily about balance choises, or anything regarding the game itself. I just want to see them talk. Randomly, about whatever they would want, somewhere on the forums. Just keep communicating with the community, maintain a sort of casual, friendly relationship.

Also, the new UI is better. *flies away*

Fri, 09/09/2016 - 23:55

#24

Flowchart

even if one came in and posted, people here would just gang up on them and demand answers and explanations for everything, why whatever they want isn't fixed/added RIGHT NOW, or everything they are working on (with guaranteed release dates), justifications for each decision, and the option to argue against anything they don't want.

I can see why they avoid this place even though it sucks not hearing anything from them.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 00:11

#25

Delecated

That tirade got me thinking;

Philosophical question:
What gives one the right to call other people names?

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 01:23

#26

Ultimastrike

Silence is Golden.

Sometimes, I want to believe that the Devs themselves are working on something in the background with their team. It's usually what I think about when it comes to certain things, since these patches in the Clockworks don't patch themselves you know.

For balance things, I'm not really certain but to be honest I think content is more important than balance right now just due to the huge fact that this game hasn't been in GH's hands for a year yet. It was only handed over this year. I want to see what goes on in a year, honestly, and see what comes of it. Should the game shut down, well...that's their choice then.

@Midnight-Dj thinking about it that way surely isn't a mindset that we should be in. I understand that this place is in quite the down period right now, but it's up to Grey Havens to(not to pull a Trump card here but) make Spiral Knights great again. The amount of players left in the playerbase could be what is holding this game up right now, and with resurgence of people like @Hera and @Cronus of the time that SK was handed over(especially on my stream) meant that they were still working on things behind the scenes.

The only thing I expect of them is to instead of re-open certain things like Jelly Giant or such is to make their own content and expand on it. We stopped at 10-3 where that one guy had just opened up Cradle to the Swarm and we found that one team mentioned in the logs. If they decide to expand on the story, it could bring back potential players and maybe draw in new ones. All we can do right now is just twiddle our thumbs and wait for Grey Havens.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 02:37

#27

Zeldarunners

Didnt eurydice say the museum

Didnt eurydice say the museum anology was outdated? so youre pulling from something that it itself is no longer concrete. I say wait i think this game will get more updates soon enough, changing companies isnt easy and might take a few more months. (its only been 2)

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 07:00

#28

Midnight-Dj

How the mighty have fallen

@Draycos

Fairness has nothing to do with generosity, the prize boxes will always be for the profit of the game, and not any amount of whining is going to change the fact that the content of the box is different. I am not defending the design choices made by GH because I think they are good decisions, but because neither you or I have control over it. So there is no point in arguing over things you can't control and frankly I don't think it is likely it is going to change any time soon. They have been the same for five years, what makes you think they will just change it over night? And start giving out mix master like candy?

And there is always that good old saying, "Why should I change my game because someone typing on the internet tells me so?"

The ol "Just ask anyone online that Shards are bad and you will see my point" joke of an argument isn't going to cut it either, have you talked to everyone in the fan base? Or just your own circle of friends? I wouldn't be surprised that some people don't even know what Kats and shards are (you know, the people who just started playing?), and besides, like I said before, you have no control over these things just like me, even if you ask a hundred random knights the same question, the answer may not be all the same, like me for example, I am actually quite comfy with my shard, SNORT.

I know what you want to say, you think how can any game developer not improve their own game with so many glaring problems in view? Well, the simple truth is, we may never knew what went on in their heads, and I for once don't want to assume their mentality.

And indeed you are, you have not coded SK, sure, the process may in all honestly be just like you said, easy as cake, and I hope that is true. But why do you rule out the possibility that it ISN'T? And if you really think GH is as lazy as you think they are, why not email what you said to GH? I am sure they will give you a more solid answer than me, you are really barking at the wrong tree on this one.

Hmm, it seems this time it was I who made you loose it, I've got to admit, if I didn't saw your post after about 7 hours of working this reply would have been far more hostile, but I am not the same man I was three years ago when I first came to this forum. But it seems the same could not be said about you.

I don't know about you but I am glad they fix anything at all, I don't expect major weapon/mechanic overhaul from GH when SK is so late in its life cycle, I mean, when was the last time that ever went well?

SCOUNDREL.

Oh, music to my ears...

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 11:28

#29

Fangel

geez people

I get off work yesterday with no new forum posts then I come in today to see this mess of a thread. Geez.

I'll back up a bit because I have a few things to say:

We do have an official statement on the old UI never coming back. As such, old legacy items likely won't be returning either. Best to walk forwards instead of standing still and looking backwards.
Cutters. Cutters are the only weapon that require combat boosts to be effective. This is why Echo is in skolver with a DVS and a swiftstrike buckler in the hall of heroes - they're setting an example of how to use cutters.
Pierce WHB = amazing, since cutters already wreck pierce-weak monsters. However, DVS should remain normal damage. I see the idea of shadow damage thrown around but, uh, I've attempted to fight gremlins and slimes with cutters and it is painful and not a weapon type you should be using against those enemy types. A shadow flourish or spur would be much more appropriate.
If you all have forgotten, Midnight-Dj is someone who thrives off chaos, death, destruction, and whatever other word you can think of when you think of Shadow the Hedgehog. They are done with this game, and would rather see it die in a shower of blood than see it live long enough to overcome its problems because one is quick and has presumed "glory" while the other one requires onlookers to watch it struggle. Watching something you love struggle is hard, and so their way of "coping" is to bash its head in with a rock rather than help it to its feet.

Personally, I believe that we'll see some more stuff in the future. A while back Cronus invaded my guildhall and promptly trapped me in our bar. When he finally freed me (before I got alcohol poisoning, luckily) he was mentioning to some of my other guildmates that the Grey Havens team considers the Iron Guild Hall update a content update. This means, to the people in charge, that chess boards/pieces, lower guildhall fees, and all the little bits of new things they added were a content update. Cronus also mentioned that he knows many people do not consider that content, but it is to the people creating it.

As such, while player A may only consider clockworks stuff to be new content, player B may consider only bugfixes or reverting changes to be content... And player C will never know when anything is new. As such, Grey Havens likely assumes everything added is a content update, since every player will have differing opinions on what makes "content" anyways.

So when y'all are vague about "new content", and Grey Havens adds "new content" (ie - something that wasn't accessible in the game yet. Yes, the casino is new content, no matter how many parts of the files were made in the past), then it's not the "new content" you wanted... Well, getting upset at Grey Havens seems a bit unwarranted. Most people can't read the minds of others, and when "chess" was suggested in the past, and so they add chess as new content, it's kind of a sure sign they're listening and adding stuff when they see fit.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 11:59

#30

Fehzors-Forum-Alt

@Fangel "If you all have forgotten, Midnight-Dj is someone who thrives off chaos, death, destruction, and whatever other word you can think of when you think of Shadow the Hedgehog. They are done with this game, and would rather see it die in a shower of blood than see it live long enough to overcome its problems because one is quick and has presumed "glory" while the other one requires onlookers to watch it struggle. Watching something you love struggle is hard, and so their way of "coping" is to bash its head in with a rock rather than help it to its feet."

MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm delicious personal attack hair pulling galore.. definitely gotta soak that up bask in it if you will, can't pull those off me-self no siree but Fangel, Fangel is allowed delicious personal attacks threaten the DJ yessssssssssssss and does Mr. Fangel have kind words for Fehzor aswell?????

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 12:28

#31

Melonfish

Untied, loose ends.

First things of order:

Fangel: We do have an official statement on the old UI never coming back.

Incorrect. The statement is about the lack of plans to do so, not a definite shutdown of the possibility to do so. We were given a glimpse of the state of their development map then, but now it could be different. There is no closure on the topic of the classic interface.

As such, old legacy items likely won't be returning either.

Likelyhood is notwithstanding. Either they are brought back or they do not. There are no arguments for different outcomes.

The addition of new furnitures, including the chess board, as well as the unique Guild Hall Bond item were definitely new content, no questions about it.

One of the (if not outright the) main issue we have been having with asking for new content that has been discussed thoroughly to this day is how broadly the term "content" applies to just about every add-on that was implemented to this game. I am willing to stake out for this being a major reason for the distance set between the development team and the playerbase, in short a case of miscommunication from all parties involved. Considering the length for which this has remained a common issue, I strongly suggest that we establish a way to nail down the specifics that separate the various different kinds of content in order to minimize and contain viral confusion.

While in most cases it has been generally confusion generated from the side of players, I can also recall OOO having used the notion of new content in order to advertise items that could very arguably be considered as such. The tendency of leaving said feature explained in excruciatingly scarce details consequently furthers the cluelessness and therefore the confusion, down to eventual conflicts of mind.

A shadow flourish or spur would be much more appropriate.

In practice, yes.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 13:03

#32

Fangel

I don't know how much more a direct response from the staff saying "we aren't reverting the UI" isn't an indicator of them not bringing back the old UI. They are keeping it open in order to allow for future, more current changes to be made (see: battle sprites), but have no plans to revert the UI. If their other legacy format is anything to follow (removing mineral deposits), then I can't see us getting old features removed simply because the game has moved on.

That doesn't mean old features aren't desirable - clearly they are. However, it would be better to rework old features into the current system than to bring them back as they stand.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 14:13

#33

Xaurian

Horrible, horrible stuff being said everywhere in this thread. I now feel entirely ashamed to be a part of this "fandom".

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 17:14

#34

Midnight-Dj

@Fangel

If you all have forgotten, Midnight-Dj is someone who thrives off chaos, death, destruction, and whatever other word you can think of when you think of Shadow the Hedgehog.

Yes indeed, a long time ago I have decided since all of you are going to pull a 'Holier than thou' facade on this forum and try to give off some kind of positive vibe, I am going to act as an equal and opposite force to balance things out a bit, I am the dark to your light, the joker to your batman. You can keep holding on to your noble manner Fangel, but I know even you can crack (as you did here). Someone like you deserve an equal, someone who will use every last ounce of determination to defend what they believe in as you do to yours.

To quote joker, 'an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.'

They are done with this game, and would rather see it die in a shower of blood than see it live long enough to overcome its problems because one is quick and has presumed "glory" while the other one requires onlookers to watch it struggle. Because one is quick and has presumed "glory" while the other one requires onlookers to watch it struggle. Watching something you love struggle is hard, and so their way of "coping" is to bash its head in with a rock rather than help it to its feet.

Game =/= person, men can over come his flaws and maybe even rise above it (I think I can rule out you and I), but SK is a video game, even the most die hard fan will quit this game eventually. I would rather see the game I loved go out on a high note as supposed to be that game that no one cared about. Do you prefer seeing your loved ones struggling in dying breath with a terminal disease or see them enjoying the sweet mercy of oblivion?

SK is a five years old MMO with a 500 player base, it has already been dropped by its original developer (well, half of them) and laid off by SEGA, do you think any other company is going to pick this up? I cannot help this game 'back on its feet', its feet have long since rotted away. The golden era of SK have passed, like a man lived pass his adulthood, there is no back on its feet for this game, only an agonizing decline to the bitter end. So yes, I would rather see SK go down with dignity as supposed to be the dog that is too sick to live that has to be put down.

@Gatnerd

If you tag along with any fandom for long enough, you will get sick of it.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 18:06

#35

Draycos

@Jazzberry (what a name!) - It would be nice to hear what they're trying to make of the game; any information, any discussion with selective sneaking is a step up from the nothing of now. I don't see what they have to lose.. unless they are just trying to ride out the game with as little effort as possible. That would be depressing.

@Flowchart - That's true, but while it'd be rough (because they've held off) I don't think it's worth giving up on. If something's messed up and left out to dry, no reason why they shouldn't be held accountable; shard bombs would have been taken much less harshly if they were just a change in design philosophy, if they weren't gimped weapons from the get-go thanks to hit limits. There are legitimate complaints just as there are mindless ones, you know? Same for asking 'what's next'- wanting to know what they're shooting for doesn't have to mean wanting specifics with dates to berate them over later.

@Delecated - What gives anybody a right to anything, you BUNGLER?

@Ultimastrike - I want to think that way, I really do. Being peaceful and patient was a winning strategy a few years ago- outta nowhere, Roarmulus Twins update! Accessories, even if nobody had (or has) a sense of style! Danger Missions! ... But also nasty curveballs like the removal and not rework of things I liked, as already mentioned. Then stuff like functional gear hidden behind RNG paywalls, an update dedicated to guns that could've done a lot more good (and did silly things like buffing Blitz Needle), yada yada.

Here's the thing- "new" content and balance go hand in hand. More viable weapons means more weapons to play with, which is in my opinion what gives the game so much longevity, as aforementioned. Tweaks to enemies' behavior would spice things up for sure- people would look at beasts awfully differently if they still had the tracking they did years back. Is it completely new? No, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing!

A good example is Monster Hunter- people fight the same enemies with the same weapons, but the people you play with keep you on your toes. I'll use a Charge Blade differently if somebody has a Hammer, you know? MH:Generations might not add a whole lot, but it was worth picking up for the change in weapons alone. (Should probably just wait for the next mainline game instead honestly but that's an argument for another time.)

@Zeldarunners - Right; saw that post myself. ʷʰᶦᶫᵉ ᵃʳᵍᵘᶦᶰᵍ ᶦˢ ᵃ ᵈᶦˢᵍᵘˢᵗᶦᶰᵍ ᶠᵒʳᵐ ᵒᶠ ᵉᶰᵗᵉʳᵗᵃᶦᶰᵐᵉᶰᵗ I am mainly discussing it because it feels like that's what's going on anyway. As I said in a previous post, we haven't had substantial gameplay changes for a very long time. If by "two months" you're referring to the Casino or Guild Hall updates, neither of those affect the way people play directly. The casino is a glorified prize wheel you have to take a few minutes to hunt down with no special action related. Punkin King plays out very similarly, but you at least have the cute little minigame where you chase his head around like a pinata. Guild halls getting their price capped and the Guild Bond items are nice for self-management, but it's almost entirely cosmetic stuff, let's be honest here.

@Midnight-Dj You are a goofball for thinking that '''''fairness''''' (ick) matters when the game has the player retention of a sieve, that there is no point in discussing this just because players have no direct control over the game, that people not knowing what they've missed out on is an acceptable counterpoint, that the focus of complaining about Shards is somehow on "what is" and not on "what was and could've been", blatantly moving your goalposts and dodging, and most importantly, thinking my posts are hostile because of the intentionally comedic name-calling and not the air of condescension I've been maintaining. You're not some big heroic antithesis, just the same amount of unreasonable dialed to "negative". In other words, you're neither receptive nor entertaining and I'm not wasting more time. I think that means you win or something.

@Fangel- Concerning the UI: I assume the "difficulty" being referred to is because the new UI has some additional buttons (portraits for you and your Sprite, the Forge come to mind). I wouldn't call this "standing still and looking backwards" when the new UI was a backwards step for many people (self included) because of the intrusiveness of the portrait and the badly-repositioned healthbar (now healthbars). Having the new UI as the preset normal with an option to revert to revert to pre-patch would hurt literally nobody. How-ev-er! As I write this, I think I remember some of the earliest missions, tutorials and the like, highlighting parts of the UI. If missions are where things are tricky, the toggle could be an unlockable option, as stupid as that sounds on paper. Or just not affect those missions or other relevant menuing at all. Snort.

Concerning Cutters: They require combat boosts, but other weapons that don't require them perform better than they ever could, so I don't buy into that. If you apply the same argument to the other poster-Knights, the bomber is using Bombastic which gives damage and is practically never more useful than CTR; the Guardian (heavy weapons) is using gear that lowers your attack speed (which is really unsafe with already-sluggish gear) .. and so on. They're more representative of the playstyle than what's actually effective.

Not all gremlins and jellies are scary to fight with a Cutter; the push-and-chase is great against Menders. Stalkers are pretty harmless if you stay on them, flinching easily. Giant Lichen are significantly less threatening when they're using their close-range attacks; the spikes they shoot can be nasty to deal with in parties if left alone. And, as said before, Jelly King. Might be a curbstomp fight with surpassing gear, but I figure it'd be a nice alternative anyway.

Concerning the recent updates being "content": it's disingenuous to treat it like "content" as I keep asserting. I'm not being overly specific, I don't think. The casino and chess are about as playable as accessories are playable. They're a neat little bonus, which is exactly why this is so disheartening. I wonder how many people would put cosmetics ahead of ... well, literally anything that has a tangible effect on the gameplay.

While people did ask for chess at some point, it's not necessarily indicative of the team as a whole caring about anything else. The way this is shaping up, it feels like it's a byproduct of the artist(s) having little to work on. "People are tired of box promotions; the casino brought back Node Slime; might as well do this silly chess thing!"

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 19:05

#36

Midnight-Dj

@Draycos

You are a goofball for thinking that '''''fairness''''' (ick) matters when the game has the player retention of a sieve,

You are a goofball for thinking that every player in this game will just leave in the first sight of any flaws in the mechanic. If that was the case, why are you and I still here?

that there is no point in discussing this just because players have no direct control over the game,

I am all for discussing fixing these mechanics, but after three years of spilling guts over these things with no response from GH in sight, maybe it is time to drop it? I stopped going to suggestion forum for that reason, as what is the the point of discussing change when the developers refuse to make any? You may think I am dodging the argument, but I really don't want to argue since what you are arguing for is a lost cause. Shards will probably never change, even if it did, what difference do you think it will make? Just to satisfy a few veteran players whose shards have been collecting dust in their arsenal?

I disagree with Eurydice when it comes to museum is an outdated term, it is a very fitting term for SK, like Mona Lisa, SK is a relic, it is good but not without flaws, but you shouldn't paint over something just because it is flawed. (and no one would let you paint over Mona Lisa because you think it needs some finishing touch)

You're not some big heroic antithesis, just the same amount of unreasonable dialed to "negative".

I just wanted to give you something to argue with Draycos, antithesis would quite literally mean I disagree with everything you said, but I don't, like you, I do believe that this game could do with some sorely needed updates and tweaks, but unlike you, I won't jump on people's throat telling them that they are stupid for not thinking the way they do. I will standby my point that this game is better off staying the way it is.

you're neither receptive nor entertaining and I'm not wasting more time. I think that means you win or something.

Tapping out already? You can do better than that. Tell me again why Shard should be the way you think they are and tell me how every player who crafted it are entitled to a balanced weapon and they deserve absolute control over their avatar. SPOILER: They don't.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 20:28

#37

Sgt-Brownie

Just passing by...

I just wanna point out that plenty of multiplayer games are still alive even after 5 years.

Take this fact however you see fit.

With that being said, I'll see myself out now, kthxbai.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 20:58

#38

Doctorspacebar

Where's that [BEEP] fourth Chaos Emerald?

Sorry DJ, I hate to look like I'm taking sides, but Fangel's quote was the best Sp'Knights forum quote 2016. And it's true, you are REALLY negative sometimes. Can you try and tone down the doom and gloom? Because it may sound profound sometimes, but right now, I'll be blunt, it's sounding more like a guy on League raging because I screwed up and got killed on my first fight against blue. (Jungle Jax is a dangerous game.)

Anyhow! Someone mentioned that Cronus said the Dev Team considered the Iron Guild Hall update a content update. And I guess there are a number of players who like to chill in their Guild Halls that like it, too. The chess pieces are a unique kind of furniture, for sure- you can move 'em around and play Chess, if I'm reading things right! That's actually pretty cool.

However, it's pretty clear there's a clamor for new stuff. New missions, new boss, new anything as long as it's something to fight! While Spiral Knights is able to get by on the pseudo-RNG levels and Scarlet Fortress being the most awesome thing in the history of online gaming for a while, it eventually does grow a bit stagnant. We forumites would like to strike up conversations with the devs. Even if they get no input, some Dev comments would be very appreciated. They have to be careful what they say because it may be construed as confirming or denying one update, suggestion, or other thing, but showing up and chatting can make us feel welcome.

Companies like Valve are beloved for actually listening to player input in things like the Saxxy Awards and the multitude of Workshop hats available in TF2; maybe something like that would be good for Sp'Knights? I'm all for a "Room Editor" or something similar, which (assuming there was a way to avoid "troll rooms" like the infamous "troll maps" of Super Mario Maker- I'm thinking that forcing a player to run through first with enemies disabled, but no weapons equipped, would be the best thing here) would add a nice amount of new content, especially if they added a new kind of resource that you'd gain from playing or making Editor rooms. (Maybe you could justify it in-story as a simulation?)

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 21:31

#39

Midnight-Dj

Sonic, I knew you would came!

@Doc

Fangel's quote was the best Sp'Knights forum quote 2016.

Really Doc? I mean, I am fine with you taking side (you were never on my side to begin with, so I am not at all surprised or offended by that), but Fangel's quote is really nothing to be complimented about. I mean, you really can't compare SK to someone who has tripped over and just needed some time to get up, SK tripped itself over countless times (I think all of us here can testify to that) and at this point its face is smeared with blood, too disfigured to be recognized by those who once loved it.

I am probably more offended by the fact that I am compared to an anthropomorphic black hedgehog edge lord than anything else that was thrown my way on this thread, I prefer to think of my self as Sans from Undertale (or Monsoon from MGR: Revengeance). I simply accepted the natural cycle of this word, its birth and eventual destruction, I personally prefer to bring things to its absolute so I can in turn quicken its departure. This is just one of the fundamental principals of nihilism.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 21:40

#40

Draycos

@Midnight - I'm not being combative because you disagree with me; grounded arguments with differing but understandable conclusions are very different to shortsighted fallacies and misinterpretations fueled by projection. Excuse me for getting tired of shooting them down. It's clear you don't want to have a discussion, so we don't have to have one.

A cynic sees the glass as half empty. You see the glass exclusively for the emptiness; better destroy the whole thing instead of just getting more water! (EDIT: You are not a nihilist.)

@the good ol Doc - Any shape or form of player-created content or open-sourcing would be a boon. After all, it's what the game was originally designed for, back when people made fiend gates intentionally as a way to weed out the weak- especially in stratum 5, just before Firestorm Citadel. Good times.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 21:47

#41

Midnight-Dj

@Draycos

It's clear you don't want to have a discussion, so we don't have to have one.

So, 'I am right and everything you said is wrong therefore I am right' is what you are going with? I simply do not see why you want to bring change to a game that simply refuse to do it. You have been yelling for this kind of stuff for three years, maybe GH have already seen/considered your point and simply can't be stuffed to change it? Excuse me for getting tired of wanting to see things your way.

A cynic sees the glass as half empty. You see the glass exclusively for the emptiness; better destroy the whole thing instead of just getting more water!

Too bad the glass is in the middle of the desert, you can travel miles on end, drink your own urine and blood to get to a place where the glass can be refilled. But in the end, wouldn't it be better to ditch the glass and find a new one after your own survival is secured? (Edit: I don't actually care if you think I am a nihilist or not)

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 21:49

#42

Draycos

This is getting ridiculous. I need to stop eating bait.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 22:10

#43

Midnight-Dj

The bait is the shape of a shard bomb apparently

Why so serious Draycos? You have been stringing along so well and still you haven't answered me the most simple question of them all, one that could end all of this? If you are simply going to brush over my argument with 'shortsighted fallacies and misinterpretations fueled by projection', then you are giving my the impression that I should stick to what I said since all you seemed to be doing is belittling my points.

All you needed to tell me is why do you think changing the game the way you wanted is good and why do you think GH should consider it.

I prefer the status quo for a few reasons:

-SK is a relic, a MMO that have already gotten laid off by TWO companies and it is so late in its life cycle. GH should focus their effort on keeping this game 'alive' before jumping into future development. If making update is as easy as you claim them to be, then why haven't those update arrived? We can only rely on conjecture here, there is no misinterpretation here, only a mystery that neither you and I can solve.

-I prefer if the metagame I started off playing into stays the same, I know this won't be true as all MMO have shifting metas with each update, but as long as my gear don't turn into literally garbage over night I am fine with a shard buff, not that I am going to pick it up since I don't play this game that often.

-People hate changes, they do, I mean just look at the WoW vanilla server debacle lately, just because things changed doesn't mean all people will like it, my friend who introduced me to this game left because he hated the new orb system, I can only wonder how many others left after these drastic changes. One need to consider the back lash and just how much the update may alter the fan base before implementing it simply because it is good on paper.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 22:14

#44

Draycos

Poe's Law in full effect.

Sat, 09/10/2016 - 22:20

#45

Midnight-Dj

Whatever you say.

Sun, 09/11/2016 - 06:55

#46

Dats-Mah-Boi

You guys talk too much. What

You guys talk too much. What about not-for-profit do you not understand? GH has no incentive to talk to players, because they are not-for-profit. All that means is that you should enjoy the game for what it is (excellent game, but 5 years of playing game would get you frustrated I am sure), and not expect updates. If you truly get affected this much by a simple video game where you need to type an essay, then perhaps that is a sign that you need to do something better with your life.

Sun, 09/11/2016 - 11:27

#47

Draycos

If you bothered to read instead of seeing big scary walls and thinking "HAHA THOSE NERDS" you might have noticed that the focus of this thread is on how they're being ineffective no matter what they are, nonprofit, scheming, applesauce, whatever.

If you misconstrue passionate discussion as dependency and weakness, perhaps that is a sign you're a total DORK, WHOAHOHO

Sun, 09/11/2016 - 11:53

#48

Ogygus

communication between the devs and playerb

For example, here you can see it

Sun, 09/11/2016 - 11:56

#49

Draycos

I miss him.

Sun, 09/11/2016 - 13:39

#50

Midnight-Dj

Nick left SK a long time ago, perhaps you should too?

Search

Why is there still no communication between the devs and playerbase?