My Solution to Weapon Variety in Spiral Knights
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 01:49
Before any type of solution may be proposed, it is inherent that the problem is both present and identified. Spiral Knights is facing a crisis. Looking through numerous threads on the Spiral Knights community forum shows signs of the problem, from discussions about guns and swords to the uses of bombs for kiting through entire maps. There is an immediate problem that has been ignored and danced around, one that neither the developers nor the community mention, in fear of discrimination. Only winking nods of the problem show themselves.
Numerous threads on the forum and comments made by those who play the game reveal that the many of the weapons in the bomb category do not match up to swords in terms of strength or skill level, even going so far as to assume that those who carry any other sort of weapon have only recently started playing Spiral Knights or lack a level of competence for the combat aspects of it. There are many who discriminate against the users of bombs specifically due to the bomb's ability to kite. This has led to the unfounded opinion that users of bombs are not as skilled as others in combat. Those who judge gunners with certain bias note the gun's inability to damage as quickly as other swords of the same tier, while comparing them to bombs for kiting purposes. Now that the origin of the problem has been brought into the open, we must determine whether or not it can be rectified.
For the longest time, I was in dismay. If bombs became a short range weapon, many bomb users would complain about becoming nerfed. In order to rebalance it, swords would also have to be weaker and guns would follow. This would lead to no one's happiness and many players would simply stop playing. Likewise with guns, if they were to receive damage that rivals a sword, swords would eventually become stronger in a rebalance, leading to the same cycle as before. I was led to believe that there was no solution. Now, months later, I have come up with a viable solution for the problem that should satisfy most in the community.
By removing all guns, bombs and high tiered items in Spiral Knights, we can ensure that the game will become equally balanced in the respect that people would no longer be much stronger than each other, unless in terms of pure skill. The forum community has long agreed that guns are the most useless weapons due to low damage. No longer will sword users be plagued by a gun user arriving in their party!
The community continuously agrees that guns are a weapon that are below standard, some even going so far as to remove gun users from their parties when they see them. It is obvious that guns are, by far, the most useless weapon type to have ever been added into a game. Any person who uses guns is considered to be very new or does not know how to fight, and thus relies on the guns to fight for them. By removing guns, we are ensuring a stronger community of fighters who are adept at using their own skill.
Bombs are, by some, considered extremely powerful, even to the point of being too powerful. As such, they are often relied upon, instead of letting one's own skill increase. Many people on the forums say that those people should either learn to play or quit. Discrimination against them, along with balance issues, are apparent at every turn. "How does one perfectly balance a weapon that works completely different than the other two?" The answer is that it is probably impossible to achieve perfect balance between these weapons. The only option is to remove them.
As for high-tiered items, many people have noted that at higher tiers, weapons specialize to a point where some are completely different, take the (Divine Avenger's Charge Attack compared to the Gran Faust's, two different weapons all originating from the same path). As was said earlier, balancing weapons with different types of attacks becomes difficult and, in the end, not worth it. Many weapons, such as the Spur line, have been said to be useless because it does not reach the maximum tier. If weapon tiers were to stop at three stars, the weapon would be similar to each other, thus easier to balance.
I believe I speak for the community as a whole when I say that the removal of these weapons will only help to solidify Spiral Knights' gameplay. Gun and Bomb users will switch to the more respected Sword and the users of Spiral Knights will no longer need to kick a person for being a user of a mediocre weapon again.
Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts on the problems of Spiral Knights. We can all hope to make the community a better place!
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 02:08
#2
/thread
/thread
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 02:14
#3
No.
No.
Also, learn to be concise man.
Here's a TL;DR version of the post: "Balancing is hard, let's just remove the hard to balance stuff".
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 02:18
#4
lolwut
edit:No
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 02:21
#5
No longer will sword users be
No longer will sword users be plagued by a gun user arriving in their party!
Any person who uses guns is considered to be very new or does not know how to fight, and thus relies on the guns to fight for them.
Not sure if serious.
This sounds like how some people like to knock on the Shard and Graviton bombs, only wiht an entire weapon class. Each weapon has a chance to be amazingly useful in specific scenarios. If it appears to be useless then you should be re-examining your strategy and usage scenario first.
Protip: Never try to "speak for the community" on the forum. I will respect your opinion, but as a part of this community I can say that you do not speak for me.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 02:50
#6
I think someone put it the
I think someone put it the words better than I ever could in a different thread about CE. Give me a sec to find it...
"Disclaimer for the terminally clueless: this thread is satire. The above isn't serious."
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 03:01
#7
You know, when you write a
You know, when you write a piece of satire, it should actually be somewhat clear that it indeed is. This text sounds too serious for that, IMHO.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 03:04
#8
^ Additionally, why bother
^ Additionally, why bother writing 8 paragraphs of satire, in a way that appears to merely be a whaaambulance.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 03:29
#9
*facepalm*
People seriously thought that was SERIOUS?
Okay, it was serious.
Over-the-top serious.
So serious it CAN only be a satire.
And I think it works.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 21:02
#10
@Kentngo
The problem with satire is that if you sound too convincing then you end up sounding like the noobs that actually complain about this and DO think like that. You know, kind of like how the Westover Baptist Church (a well known satiristic site that mocks the more extreme parts of Christianity) sometimes gets mistaken for a real church because they sound so much like what the extremists say.
Be more sarcastic next time and people will realize it's satire. And seriously... have you seen some of the threads on the forums? The OP could have been serious, I wouldn't put it past some of the posters.
~Gwen
[edit] Repair is right, it is Landover, not Westover... that's what I get for posting when I have insomnia, lol. Fairly easy mistake to make since they both come off as completely crazy. Sorry about the mix-up.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 03:35
#11
@Ten_Tacles
I believe Kentngo is pulling a "Tommy Wiseau" on us in that he is making something he originally made as serious out to be a joke. It's hard to believe someone would make a post in the General Discussion of this length about something that isn't really a hot topic in the General section without being extremely serious about it.
Also, +2 if you understand my opening reference.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 03:35
#12
I can't believe you actually
I can't believe you actually took the time to write all that. :P
oh and @Gwen, thats Landover, not Westover. Also, they fail really hard.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:09
#13
We heavy duty sword users
Between my cohort TheBadger and my character Raspberry, I think we own just about every Brandish, Calibur, Cutter, Sealed and Flourish/Snarb 5* line. Raspberry has far too many Caliburs, including CIV and many high and vh UVs of Leviathans. A Leviathan for whatever type of Arena strata to solo in. Yes, I know just one Leviathan should be more than enough, but it's like snipes. Can never have enough colors of snipe cuteness. Rasp even has a collection of Winmillion and Khorovods. Been waiting for 5* recipes on those since the Grand Opening in early April. What can I say? I <3 swords!
NO NO NO NO to your balancing solution!
Have you ever read the brilliant Kurt Vonnegut short story Harrison Bergeron? If not a synopsis of the story can be found on the Wiki here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
Handicapping the game by subtracting different types of playing styles other than your own for the sake of absolute equality and balance is as absurd as Harrison Bergeron's incredibly balanced world.
It has taken me countless amounts of gel drops and light shards since April to finally craft a HIGH CTR HAZE a few days ago to turn into a Shivermist. I am a do-it-yourselfer. I have more fun crafting and farming the materials to craft with. Wouldn't you know it, the day after I craft a high ctr haze and turn it into a 4* Freezing Atomizer, I craft a VH CTR HAZE. So I am giving TheBadger the high ctr Shivermist when unbinding comes around. I got TheBadger hooked on trying bombing for the first time. We both love it. What would actually be just peachy is having more weapon and armor slots so we can play with more toys during runs. I am glad that I discovered how fun bombs can be.
Many recipe paths lead to having fun in game. We also have too many 5* guns. Excited to try the new recipes from the new boss tokens.
Edit: We see enough noobs who take your dystopian satire to heart. It's like having a religion of noobs based on the SciFi genre with guest appearances by Tom Cruise.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:02
#14
I'm a gunner. I'm just
I'm a gunner. I'm just saying.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/303/gunnerish.jpg
And, Repair, I take that as a compliment. Many satirists on other sites don't put effort into their writing. It leads to their posts sounding shoddy, to a point where it leaves the realm of satire and becomes a bad troll that can't even do /that/ correctly. And I'm sure many of you know how easy it is to troll a community.
If you compare this to other things I've written on other fora, it's actually slightly short.
And I noticed that it was too serious while writing it so I tried to shove a ton of sarcasm in near the end.
"By removing all guns, bombs and high tiered items in Spiral Knights, we can ensure that the game will become equally balanced"
"No longer will sword users be plagued by a gun user arriving in their party!"
"The answer is that it is probably impossible to achieve perfect balance between these weapons. The only option is to remove them."
"the users of Spiral Knights will no longer need to kick a person for being a user of a mediocre weapon again."
"We can all hope to make the community a better place!" <--- To be honest, I giggled at this one.
EDIT: LolIceni.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:14
#15
No way...
"I believe I speak for the community as a whole when I say that the removal of these weapons will only help to solidify Spiral Knights' gameplay."
You certainly don't speak for ME...
Remove bombs and guns from the game? Like... SERIOUSLY?
That would lead to everyone having the exact same style of fighting and game would became boring even more quickly.
We need the exact same opposite of what you said - we need wider variety of weapons!
Personaly, I don't care if bobmers can kill pretty much everything in the room with just 2 bombs or whatever. I love my sword and I'm just fine with my own fighting style. So let others have their weapons of choice.
EDIT: if it was satire, oh well. You should work on that in the future, though, because that certainly sounded 100% serious. So... try to show some signs of satire next time you want to write a satire... huh :D
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:13
#16
"Edit: We see enough noobs
"Edit: We see enough noobs who take your dystopian satire to heart. It's like having a religion of noobs based on the SciFi genre with guest appearances by Tom Cruise."
1984, starring Tom Cruise, the new Scientology.
EDIT: LolNoctuelle
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:15
#17
LOL @ your satire fail?
LOL @ your satire fail? Certainly! :P
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:20
#18
@Noctuelle
It was pretty
@Noctuelle
It was pretty funny for me. People fell for it, it had some sarcasm, people believed it, some got it. And a little winking nod near the end for people who don't read through all the posts. It was worth the time to write this, in my opinion, if only to see the people who didn't get it.
It served its purpose of alerting people about how silly sword purists sound, so all in all, it was a success.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:22
#19
You guys need your sarcasm
You guys need your sarcasm detectors fixed. I kind of went "too long, not gonna read" and skimmed ahead to the conclusion of the essay. "Hey, let's remove guns and bombs" made it horribly obvious.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:30
#20
CHUGGIT NUGGIT
Some days I wish I really could buy a one way ticket to space.
This is one of those days.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:34
#21
You're on something OP, can I
You're on something OP, can I have the name of your drug dealer?
Removing two classes of weapons would only make things WORSE! We just need to beef up the power on guns and make it so that you don't have to charge bombs to use them (or at least be able to toss them a-la Bomberman), but make the charged versions juiced to allow choice of 'should I toss, or charge!?"
I never ran into a Bomb user or Gun user, but I'd welcome them on my team with open arms. Using them is HARD, so I got some respect for those who choose to rely on them. Honestly, between the guns weak attack (let's face it, in real life guns are a SUPERIOR weapon to Swords) and the bombs needing full charge AND set delay for going off has made me use Swords. Honestly, if guns were bought up to Sword level (and who's stupid idea was it that charging a gun slows you down? Don't the people who use them got it bad ENOUGH!? The charge could at least be far more powerful than the swords and or easier to inflict status effects to make up for it) I'd use just Guns.
I certainly hope Bombers and Gunners become more available, but Three Rings, you got to do your work to make it possible.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:40
#22
@Kawaiido
My drug dealer?
@Kawaiido
My drug dealer? Paro de Satire.
If you want, I could put in a word for you
...bad puns aside.
I'd suggest you read past the first post before posting whenever possible.
@Malicus
Try telling how obvious my post is to those other people. I'm sure they would understand.
@Shoebox
Space travel wouldn't be so bad, but my preference is to use a cyanide pill for these problems. Unfortunately, I seem to have taken the last pill.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:42
#23
I'm sorry, but it's the
I'm sorry, but it's the internet. There is naught I can do. ...then again, the internet is what trained me to notice such things. Hmm.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:47
#24
OH GOD I R SO INTELLIGUNTS
And the circlejerk begins.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:51
#25
It's not really intelligence;
It's not really intelligence; it's more of a way to pass time when you're bored.
And you know you have to admit that it's at least slightly amusing to watch when people don't get it.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:55
#26
This would be funny if it weren't for the distinct lack of humor
You're not funny, if this was funny I would be laughing.
You made it not funny by posting that it was a joke then acting all superior about how you fooled people.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 04:59
#27
Poe's Law, it'd be weirder if
Poe's Law, it'd be weirder if at least one person wasn't fooled. Might as well enjoy the ride.
But if my sense of humor doesn't appeal to you, that's fine too. You have your thing and I have mine. I don't really have the right to trespass upon your sense of humor.
The point of this thread has already been made, so it was worthwhile, even if it didn't entertain me.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 05:08
#28
Maybe nobody was fooled and
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 05:13
#29
It's a dumb satire piece.
It's a dumb satire piece. People often offer constructive criticism about game balance and you think you're somehow brilliant because you go all Modest Proposal on that and suggest removing bombs and guns entirely?
It seems to me like you're tired of being mocked for being a gunner, and you're constructing a straw man by going "FINE THEN LET'S JUST REMOVE EVERYTHING THAT'S NOT A SWORD", and when people bemusedly respond "...uhh, no, that's not even close to what anyone was saying", you then exclaim "OHO! I CAN TELL BY YOUR CONFUSED FACIAL EXPRESSIONS THAT MY WRY, SOPHISTICATED WIT IS WASTED ON YOU!!" and then everyone gets bored of talking to you and wanders off to watch TV, whereupon you declare victory.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 05:15
#30
If that's the case then, wow.
If that's the case then, wow. They got me and it was pretty awesome. I concede to them.
In fact, I hope that's the case, it'd be a new experience for me. Not only that, but it would be a clear sign that there's an even broader horizon that I need to view, something like a goal.
But I doubt that is true.
On a side note, nice picture; it's an accurate depiction of many trolls.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 05:22
#31
In all honesty, I've never
In all honesty, I've never been mocked for being a gunner yet. I've seen people who have though.
I did this mainly as an extremist view on sword purism.
Though I guess I did step into the boundaries straw manning, but in my defense, satire of extremism is based on straw man arguments.
And I don't think I will ever match up to Swift.
Like I said, it's fun to see people who don't get it. In a perfect world though, everyone would get it.
EDIT: I should have combined those two posts into one. It would have been neater.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 05:34
#32
The original post was
The original post was brilliant.
The best possible satire is the kind that sounds completely serious, and should keep you confused about its true nature right up until the end.
Anything less reduces the impact.
Just wanted to take my hat off for the OP. well done.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 05:58
#33
@Tremir
You understand the
@Tremir
You understand the kind of satire I like.
If anyone wants to praise or criticize me, save your energy and find some other thread.
I kinda quit Spiral Knights a month and a half ago, just couldn't sleep, so I saw this on my website favorites and decided to chill here. It was the right thing to do.
Thanks to everyone who joined in.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 06:32
#34
I got the satire, but it
I got the satire, but it wasn't funny..
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 06:46
#35
Uh...
Maybe next time you should pick something more mainstream for satire?
I have seen very few "sword purists" out there.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 06:49
#36
The reason this is hard to
The reason this is hard to register as an enjoyable satire is because after reading what people have complained about before, this isn't too much of a stretch as to what someone would legitimately think on these forums. I believe bits and pieces of each paragraph in the opening post had actually been said by different users here, but in a serious manner.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 08:56
#37
>I have seen very few "sword
>I have seen very few "sword purists" out there.
Guns have their place.
They're great for hitting switches.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 10:51
#38
We need bludgeoning (maces,
We need bludgeoning (maces, etc) and chopping weapons (axes, etc) added to the melee variety. What about two handed weapons in which you block using the weapon?
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 10:55
#39
@Glaice1982
Seeing as your shield is attached to your arm with some sort of magic/magnet I don't think the weapon blocking would be necessary.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 12:13
#40
wait... really?
the second i saw "remove bombs" i knew it was a joke.. i laughed at least thrice throughout, and then i saw your comments and i hit the floor laughing... who could possibly think this was serious. i give +3 internets to OP
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 16:42
#41
Borderline
I came away from this hoping that it was meant in jest, but not being sure. Ultimately, I think it could have been done better than it was.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 17:46
#42
TL;DR: There has been
TL;DR: There has been "community support" about guns and bombs being underpowered. Low level swords are the way to go. Remove guns and bombs plox.
No.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 18:04
#43
Variety is needed.
We need variety! NO.
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 18:14
#44
Nah,
Lets remove swords instead, anyone who uses a sword dies too much and makes the whole team suck.
Herp
Thu, 07/07/2011 - 21:10
#45
TLDR
Remove all weapons and
TLDR
Remove all weapons and fight monster barehanded.
Fri, 07/08/2011 - 02:56
#46
>The reason this is hard to
>The reason this is hard to register as an enjoyable satire is because after reading what people have complained about before, this isn't too much of a stretch as to what someone would legitimately think on these forums. I believe bits and pieces of each paragraph in the opening post had actually been said by different users here, but in a serious manner.
Exhibit A:
http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/14646#comment-84217
^ this post is way funnier than OP. LOL
Fri, 07/08/2011 - 03:51
#47
Zelda
ಠ_ಠ
No.