You've probably all seen them spamming at the Haven 1, buying tons of materials at ridiculous prices; you may have sell a lot to them, you might be one of them.
Well those players are a real scandal; I guess for most they are in crafting business; but I have no doubt also an important part of them are AH resellers.
These persons are terrible; its already hard to earn crowns, and many would resort to selling stuffs to them because they don't have the patience to find buyers elsewhere. And for most their buying price are about 3 times lower than the lowest sale prices on AH.
What do you think about them?
Is it good to entertain such business?
What use could they possibly find for an amount of over 100 4* valuable materials bought extremely cheap, if it isn't just reselling them?
My feeling about the Haven 1 Bulk buyers (who are just lame resellers for most, shame!)
I laugh at the prices they put up.
Oh well, if someone's willing to sell without even looking the AH I guess they deserve to be underpaid.
The same goes for people bidding an item over the buyout price. If they're incapable of sorting by buyout I say let them pay double the price, call it "stupidity tax".
FYI Silty, unfortunately you won't be able to dump lousy materials such as Ecto drops, gel drops, scrap metals and some other classical "useless materials".
No the main business they're having turns around worthful materials, such as Shards (that they usually buy 5-25cr each, scandalous), Warp dusts, Ghost bells, even Sun silvers (same again, have seen one buying those 5k cr each, and they easily go for 12k cr in the AH, which can be a huge benefit), Swordstones, Iron gears, Heavy gears....I'm sure you know more or less the list. I'll add I've rarely crossed buyers paying decent price. Usually the price they give is half lower than average AH price, and sometimes even more (example: seen one buying Unstable cores 50cr each, while the lowest you can find those for at the AH is...750cr). I'm sure there are many resellers among them, when I see that kind of price cases!
if they dont get bored doing that, leave them their business, just like they leave u urs..its a real scandal ranting on weird merchants <- lol
what i think about them is that their strong trading activities support the game, in a good or a bad way
entertain such business? i dont understand
for the last question ull hav to wait for some1, who actually does that kinda thing, to answer it or directly ask ingame, besides thers no need to find an additional use for it, if that business already works well
Just dumped 10 brute cores and 5 rocky cores on someone for 160 crowns, yay!
Uh... You would have gotten more just by selling them to the NPCs. Rocky Cores go for 25 crowns at the NPC. I always sell mine off there.
Rocky Cores go for 25 crowns
NO WAY REALLY???
Lol seriously until now I thought NPCs were buying off every materials at 1 cr each..Thanks dude.
Oh yeah while I'm at there talking of NPC. I've seen that happening: players buying Haze bombs 200cr each to resell them 300cr each at NPC. That's really lame, haha!
You can sell stuff to NPCs? I never took notice of such. What NPCs specifically?
And personally, the buyers do not annoy me at all. The gold/energy beggers do so more, or the people randomly sending trade requests and giving random crap and then begging for a certain price for equipment that I don't need, particularly 1* stuff.
I just sold my really really useless materials at the equipement sellers of the Bazaar, that's where you can dump these.
I like them because I can sell them my stuff then ignore them. Sold nearly a 500 useless materials to them and made some good crowns. To be honest I do not know what the price of any mineral is worth except a few. So people offering 500 crowns for Fine Fabric sounded good to me.
500cr each Fine fabrics is a good price. I'm rather talking about players paying 200cr for these.
Or even better, have seen: 2CE for Warp dusts/Blaze peppers (they go over 1k cr at AH), 25CE for Trojan Horseshoe, 100CE for Sunsilver (half lower than the cheapest you can find in AH when you're lucky)..
I'm not saying all bulk buyers are bad of course, there are some reasonable one, buying no lower than 25% from the average price. But there are those buying 2-15 times cheaper their materials to just probably resell them. That's despicable.
I've sold in bulk to such sellers. I'd rather get rid of 600 bushy tails at once than to have to create separate auctions for each one. Sure, I could spend several hours doing so and get twice as many crowns but I'd rather sell them to someone whose business it is to do so.
Half price, I have no problem with that. If someone is offering 66 CR on something worth 1000 CR then I just won't sell to them. I doubt they find many gullible sellers.
better these guys than the ones that sell at highier prices than the AH ones :D
edit: sales to NPC's
0 star and 1 star : 1 cr
2 stars : 5 cr
3 stars: 10 cr
4 stars: 25 cr
5 stars: 50 cr
As a bulk buyer myself, I can't really see why you're complaining. If you don't feel like selling to me, then don't. You can always set up your own auctions and sell things yourself. The way I see it is that I'm taking the hassle out of your day of having to manage 50 auctions to sell off all your blue shards to people who actually need them, while at the same time making a slight profit off of each shard sold for convenience while you still get some compensation. Same thing with other items.
And have you ever actually tried to haggle with any of these people? A lot will take the items at better prices if you actually ask (which I'm guessing you don't). As always, you're not inclined or even required to sell to them.
Thanks for giving an answer Zanarias.
I've experimented something I had never tried before, because I'm a lazeh guy. I've put a dozen of Warp dusts and some other "worthy" materials in the auction house at regular prices, with a 4 hours time. Most of them sold in the 15 first minutes. So there's my point: there are players buying those materials 2-3 times cheaper than the AH lower price, and from what've seen in that small experiment, selling them back is really easy. So of course I don't say everybody buys to resell, because in that case the AH would probably be crowded of sale offers. But it seems reselling is a quite profitable business (and not honest at all in my opinion).
Its a bit personal to ask, but how do you use what you buy, Zanarias?
For more expensive mats I craft with them unless I get extra, cheaper ones I turn around on the AH, because that's the point. Yeah, it's kind of a scammy move. But a dude who wants to get rid of 400 green shards or something who won't put them on the AH himself is just holding valuable materials that someone could use. Everybody wins; the guy gets rid of the materials at a (relatively) decent price, I make a profit, and the guys looking on the AH for particular materials get them. Flawed logic somewhere up in here but I don't really care.
I used to be a bulk buyer, I really don't see why complain, we buy in bulk material you don't need to spend time selling at the auction house, I say I used to do it, because iron gears, bushy tails, force dynamos and drake scales actually sold for a lot, making me a very rich man.
I don't have a problem with it because there are faster, more interesting ways to make money. Although a person with no energy is stuck playing the reselling market.
Also it's the material seller's fault/choice for not figuring out what the going prices are for them and not dumping them on the AH if they're worth anything. I once tried to inform someone about underselling and they said they didn't care at all.
I'm sorry to say this, but you are either a really *********. However, I'll help you understand this concept. Buying low and selling high is not in anyway a scandal, if you actually used your brain, you will see that business is all about this. You don't have to sell to them. However, people who sell to them either:
a. don't know about prices
b. too lazy to find a better price to sell
c. in a hurry to get money
Now look at this from another perspective, the auction. I'm going to say that almost everyone bids at the auction. If this is true, then they are bidding on a chance to get an item for very cheap / cheaper than what its value is. In this case, these guys are scandal buyers since they are sometimes buying items 3x cheaper than its price. However, bulk buyers thrive on patience to make money while bidders thrive on luck.
"I'm not saying all bulk buyers are bad of course, there are some reasonable one, buying no lower than 25% from the average price. But there are those buying 2-15 times cheaper their materials to just probably resell them. That's despicable."
Don't run your mouth off if you don't know swat. Stores like Gucci have overpriced items by at least 3x their amounts and a regular store has somewhere between 30-80% price increase. However, when all revenue comes in, stores profit from 0-300% but that factoring in company image and all that which is too big a topic to explain. Basically regular stores are just bulk buyers but they fit in your reasonable bulker buyers. This is because they can since they sell ton and tons of items. Bulk buyers on the other hand, do not sell ton and tons of items (we talking about thousands and thousands).
Btw, stupidy is the core of many things. Government and especially business. If someone is too "stupid" or lazy to learn market prices, it's their fault.
"These persons are terrible; its already hard to earn crowns, and many would resort to selling stuffs to them because they don't have the patience to find buyers elsewhere. And for most their buying price are about 3 times lower than the lowest sale prices on AH."
Wait, the people who have patience are the terrible ones because they use that to make money? Good one.
I dont buy many materials from Ah they are usually over priced and not worth waiting like 2 days to get 10 red shards. Regardless the people who buy in bulk I know I do if people hate my prices this is what I tell them good luck finding other buyers since majority of the time no one else is buying.
Okay so clearly and as I expected, bulk buyers are resellers. So yes, I'd say its a scammy move as well, that's taking advantage over the poverty of some newcomers. Tell you what lulzking, I don't have to resort to such scoundrel methods to make over 300k crowns a week. Reselling is a vile and noobish activity that shows you've got no skills; and its not about being smart at all. Call me stupid if you want, but I'd rather be stupid and earn my bread in some regular and honorable ways than by being a douche.
And yes again that's despicable. You won't justify it because other persons or real companies also do that. That remains despicable.
"I'm sorry to say this, but you are either a really dumb man or a kid"
Also if you would kindly keep that kind of insults for you. I'm just trying to figure what kind of business it is, though of course I had my own ideas before posting this thread. Balls to you (Drupal forbids to href youtube links: its happenin' here >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BoDFAOhbbQ <<)
Last I checked you're SUPPOSE to buy low and sell high. That's not sleazy, that's BUSINESS.
"Last I checked you're SUPPOSE to buy low and sell high. That's not sleazy, that's BUSINESS."
How so? You buy your food at convenience store to resell it back just in front of it?
That's not business. Business is a fair activity. That's thief, simply. Not that'm victim of it anymore. But that's what it is, you can't justify what you're doing is any good.
I do sell it back....I use to just get cases of redbull and stuff with my friend for a special price and then we would just re-sell them to other people and single cans as well in our high school (then the principal banned Redbull) so we started getting cases of Cocaine (its a energy drink) then they banned that....You can call me a thief along with my friend, but this thief was doing business. =). What annoys me is people making a post ranting about something like this, and then when someone says relax and deal with it they get butthurt. Dont post topics if you cant handle the truth. I can handle the truth that in eyes I am a thief since I am happy being one it allowed me to have a blast in high school, and helped me learn a few ropes of business stuff in general.
People buy and sell, and even re-sell all the time. You strike me as someone who doesn't know the meaning of the word "profit". Go take at least a basic Economics class, THEN say that again to me.
I usually sell my materials super cheap, so people can afford crafting the things they've always wanted.
Now I feel like a douche, knowing that hundreds of materials sold by me are being bought by greedy, capitalist chumps that only want to resell my materials to play around with the economy.
But it's okay. CE prices are going down. Should be 4.5k per unit in a few days, give or take.
First off I'm free to post.
Second, as of someone who doesn't make any profit, FYI, I earn 300k crowns a week in honest ways. I guess you can call this profit.
Also I don't have anything to learn about economics, I already follow 4 hours of class about that when I'm not in holiday, and that's certainly not what I learn in there.
I'd rather warn players about the disadvantages of selling to dishonest buyers such as you than just stupidly wait until someone else does. Said and done, I don't have any shame promoting players out loud in game the benefits of the AH as compared to thieves like the few ones willing to 'defend', 'justify' and 'congratulate' their so-called business which is nothing like economics, but just a stupid instinct anyone has starting the day he discovers money.
So @ The silly resellers, call me whatever you want. I'm certainly not the one doing wrong, you're all to be blamed about. Simply. Don't go rant I'm bull----ing on you; you fairly deserve to see your acts revealed to those who are unaware of it, and eventually see your unfair business get ruined.
Everything you buy at a store in the real world was previously bought by the store owners so that they could sell it to you. They bought it at a lower price then they are trying to sell it to you for.
This goes back to the manufacturer of the goods, as well. They bought the materials to make those goods from someone else. They also bought those materials at a lower price than they sell the goods they make from those goods.
This is not dishonest. This is business.
If you sell someting for the same price it cost you to either buy or make it, you are wasting your time.
Oh geez, you explained it in an easy, short, and straight to the point form. Nice. Maybe he might understand you.
Apparently the OP is allergic or immune to reason or common sense...or perhaps reality?
OP? He probably makes his 300k cr a week from allowance from his parents. Which they probably made from business (cough cough BUY LOW SELL HIGH). Lawl.
Lol why you hatin'?
We can do what we like to make money, lrn2ignore.
I like the bulk buyers, even if I could get a little more selling on AH it's way more convenient to just dump 300 shards on them instead of hassling with soooo many auctions.
LOL. Nothing proves me wrong here, and there ya go trolling even more. Also you're 95% of the population? Idiot.
Also naming you can do the same without doing it meh. You're kidding me? Then go ahead and do the same, I'm waiting it.
Oh yeah and Kats is talking about shards, average price going like..20 crowns each or so?
I'm talking of players buying for instance warp dusts 2 CE to resell them back 1.6k crowns at the AH. Stick that in a corner of your head. Then again players buying shards are crafters, not resellers. Thought you'd be able to make the difference, since you claim to be so smart. Ah, except for the ones buying blue/green 20cr each to resell them back in bulk to another buyer 1CE each, of course (lame).
I'm cool and notorious? thank you man. I mean, I havent referred to myself once but w.e floats ur boat. Anyhow, I said what I needed to say. Have a good day.
You're really the only one ragging on anyone else. Yeah, some people are telling you you're stupid for not understanding a simple mechanic of the game which may or may not be true, but you're actually going out of your way to target and complain about bulk buyers, who really haven't said anything about your pointless accusations so far. You should learn to let bygones be bygones, or however the saying goes.
Although I am still curious as to how you make 300k a week "honestly" without manipulating the market in some form or another. My guess is energy resale (buying low, selling high (sounds familiar)) or crafting, at which you're also selling extremely high as a compensation for the luck factor of UVs + mats + crafting costs + convenience.
Easy. Vanaduke. Average 1 Flame soul, 1 Trojan horseshoe per run (example, I joined a pal for 5 minutes to show him the way at the beginning of the blackstorm bridge, then went solo just for that level; made 1 flame soul and 1 trojan ~14k cr). Count 9k crowns from mobs. Some miscellanous materials also, like shadow steels/sun silvers. And mostly, 5* recipes business. When I cross Vog recipes and other valuables, I can make up to 60k crowns in one run. Also usually the 4-5* materials I put for sale in Auction house are sold within an hour. Count about 10 runs to make that amount of money, of course I spend some aside on energy and crafting. So to answer your doubts, I don't need to manipulate market in any way. All I need is to use the Auction house. And no I'm not doing energy resell also, there's nothing worst than this to f-up the prices.
60K cr in 1 run.. BONER!
I mean what you do? buy 100 vog recipes from basil ? /sarcasm off
From your perspective, you should only be selling 29,800k per recipe. Since your philosophy of business and buy and sell for the close to the exactly price without much profit. Therefore to make the 60K you oh so claim, you will have to increase the price of basil's recipes by at least 20%. Good job contradicting urself BRO!
Btw, you probably sell Vog recipes for more than 40% increase in price because i would love to buy a vog recipe from you for 30k.
I think your rant is a waste of time people will sell and buy items for any given price if it annoys you that its so low you can play superman and buy all those materials for a higher price since you make 300k Crowns a week that should be easy for you.
You can start off by buying all my shards (4k+ Shards) 35 Crowns Each. Common you say you want to stop this madness and it annoys you so why dont you just play hero I mean obviously you make so much on a weekly basis you can cant you?
Basil is a NPC, not a player. For god sake, stop saying stupid things, you're only hurting yourself. There are plenty players willing to pay over 40k for a Vog Cub Coat recipe. If those were to go for 28k crowns each, that's the price I'd sell them. But its not the case, simply because its a demand and supply issue. High demand, lower supply, higher prices. Gee, for someone who claims to know economics you're pretty stupid. All I see is you're up to exploiting some so-called "flaws" in what I'm saying. Try at least to find something that's linked to the thread, and now back to it, remember I'm talking about Players buying for ridiculous costs to other Players to resell at a far higher price to other Players. Where do you see any NPC is implied in the issue my thread is about?
->"exactly price": Yes, average Auction house costs.
There are plenty players willing to pay over 40k for a Vog Cub Coat recipe.
Contrariwise, there are plenty of players willing to accept less crowns for materials then they could get for them at the AH. If they do not want to go through the time and hassle of selling their mats for the best price available, why should they not be able to dump them all onto a willing buyer?
You think people are getting exploited, but no one is forcing players to sell their mats to the bulk buyers. If he/she wasn't willing to accept such a small sum for their mats, the player simply wouldn't sell his/her mats to the buyer.
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
- Milton Friedman
"The most important single central fact about a free market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."
Just saying it doesn't imply it; and slavery also was a "benefit" for both parties you know? Americans traded some goods for men, who had no idea what was awaiting them, and who were thinking of making "benefits", which isn't really the case. So how would someone who's just sold 50 Warp dusts for 100CE react if he learnt right after he could have sold them easily the equivalent of 25CE each?
Hopefully no one is forced to sell anything. But the fact remains that this is a scam for those who fall to those cheap-... buyers.
Not sure why buying and reselling is lame. Imagine if this logic was applied to the real world...
slavery also was a "benefit" for both parties you know? Americans traded some goods for men, who had no idea what was awaiting them, and who were thinking of making "benefits", which isn't really the case.
I see what you did there.
I don't know what they call this in your country, but America we call this a "strawman" argument. You're misrepresenting my argument by using an example which only has the slightest relevance to what I've said. You've ignored what I have actually said and instead have attempted to turn it into some sort of extreme parody which you can easily knock down. Sorry, Sunshine. It's not going to work with me.
So how would someone who's just sold 50 Warp dusts for 100CE react if he learnt right after he could have sold them easily the equivalent of 25CE each?
Probably one of two ways:
1) Get upset but learn from their mistake so they don't sell something for such a low price in the future.
2) Get upset and post an angry rant in the forum titled something like "My feeling about the haven 1 bulk buyers (who are just lame resellers for most, shame!)"
"I don't know what they call this in your country, but America we call this a "strawman" argument. You're misrepresenting my argument by using an example which only has the slightest relevance to what I've said. You've ignored what I have actually said and instead have attempted to turn it into some sort of extreme parody which you can easily knock down. Sorry, Sunshine. It's not going to work with me."
Ah so that's what's supposed to knock my argument down. Well sorry Sunshine, it's not going to work with me (you know the drill).
Also I'd rather be warning other players even if that implies dealing with some "contestants" like you or whoever than just let it idlely happen. That's all, and I don't see what's wrong with it. Some players allow themself to fool other in such ways, there's no reason I'd forbid myself to act against them.
Oh yeah, good point Alwen, thanks.
Big woop, I lost what.. 50? 100 crowns?
Seriously, if you want to sit there and game the market all day for what amounts to probably 10 cents an hour (if you had spent those 10 cents on CE then converted it to crowns), be my guest.
The bulk-buyers can sit there and squeeze out their tiny profits while I spend my time on having fun in the Clockworks instead.
The way Thoran is going about his arguments, you'd think millions of dollars were at stake. Actually no, I take that back, the way Thoran is going about his arguments, I'd have to congratulate him on successfully trolling the forums.
FYI lulzking you started trolling in the first place. http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/15096#comment-85717
I asked others opinions about bulk buyers, I didn't ask judgement over my person; but you started it. You're the one trolling out here, clearly. Now if you still are unable to answer the questions in the main thread I'm asking to the players willing to post here, then STFU & GTFO
Thoran - as you can probably tell, people who go this route (buying and reselling) also have their own opinions, and either side trying to force the other that they're wrong simply isn't going to happen. Both parties are too vested in their beliefs about what's justified.
Your intent (preventing new players from getting taken advantage of) is noble, but I'd present a different thought: with the time spent arguing here on the forums, how much could have been done to help new players learn the ropes, run a few dungeons, or understand how the Auction House works? Might that be a better use of time, if your intent was originally to help new players?
The insults on both sides are unwarranted, but you're asking questions that will only spur on more insults. There is no right and wrong and no black and white in this discussion - nor will there ever be. : )
Personally, i dont like players spamming /zone in attemp to buy expensive mats for ridicolously low ammount of CR/CE, but i don't see the problem in buying stuff who someone put on AH and reselling it for decent ammount of profit. If someone puts warp dust for 300 CR, and i see it, ill grab it right away and try to resell it at "normal" price. It's not my fault that he didn't pay attention at AH prices. All that person need to to is to type name of material and check minimum and maximum price and use his common sense to put a price tag on it.
So, exploiting someone lazyness is the best part of my day here :)
The whole slavery thing is ridiculous. Neglecting the slaves themselves who are in the position of being the commodity, sellers were going to some significant effort and risk to acquire and transport a valuable commodity from Europe or America. There is nothing wrong with that transaction except for the commodity being, y'know, human beings. The moral problem there is the slaves, not the rates at which they were bought and sold, and there's nothing unethical about game materials (in any real sense. In an 'in-character' sense one could question the manner in which these materials are acquired! Poor kitties! But that's fiction.)
The problem with the town square buyers is a few things, but nothing like that.
Problem 1 ... they are basically taking advantage of people not knowing how to operate the auction house. You can sort by buy price, you can auction off a hundred shards at a time, etc. On the other hand, I've taken advantage of such people too -- when they were asking to buy some mat at some ridiculously high price and they couldn't or wouldn't understand when I tried to explain how to get it from the auction house for a third of that price, I just said forget it and sold materials at many times AH value as they were literally asking for. I would've felt guilty not trying to explain, but they were genuinely happy with the trade and I made a good profit so whatever. And since I don't have the energy anymore to mention in public chat over and over and over that the prices on the auction house are 10x more or 10x less than whatever spam-merchant's offer is... hard to feel any moral outrage anymore. To paraphrase W.C. Fields, there's a sucker crash-landing every second.
It's Three Ring's responsibility to make a user friendly interface, and in the auction house, they totally failed. (Auction format is the wrong format for a commodity market -anyway-, only recipes and gear should be auction items. Materials need a commodity market. Even if they remain auctioned, that interface obviously is incomprehensible to a huge portion of new players.
Problem 2... They are spamming the town square! And unlike this thread's opening subject line -- they aren't restricted to Haven-1! They are in every town square spamming away, and just like beggars, it does no good to /ignore one because there's always another. If they'd stay on /2 it would be fine, but instead they're cluttering the game with offers that nobody that has a clue would actually take. (Maybe there are some that are offering something reasonable - given the auction 10% cut and the risks, 60-70% of auction house price isn't really a ripoff to easily drop a large number of mats if that's what someone genuinely wants to do. A tenth to a quarter of the auction house price? I have my doubts that people really know what they're giving away to those offers.) But really, whether they are reasonable offers or not, I don't want to hear them once every thirty seconds or even once every three minutes. I have to go to the town square to access the auction house, and then I get spammed by these kinds of players and I can't follow what's happening in any other channel because the public chat is flowing with this junk. Every once in awhile I get annoyed enough to politely ask someone to stop spamming. Since they usually don't stop spamming, I then file a complaint. Note to those engaging in this trade: Repeating your message more frequently is more likely to get such attention from me and others who don't like hearing it. (Yeah, I could ignore them, but I do sometimes run in public groups, mostly in the hopes of meeting a competent player or two to add to my friend's list. I'm not aware of any game mechanic that stops me from joining or being joined by an ignored player. If there -is- such a mechanic, I may start using /ignore more liberally. Also other three rings games don't purge your ignore list when a character is deleted, so you can end up ignoring someone totally different who happens to choose the same name if you play long enough. Since /ignore looks like borrowed code... yeah. Reluctant to use.)
(Also, agree with soulfeast - buying and reselling mispriced items in the auction house is perfectly fine. You're not spamming anyone, no underpriced item is going to fail to sell anyway, so the player that put it up has effectively already taken his loss, and if he was putting it up so low deliberately to make a quick sale? You may even be doing him a favor.)
Oh yes, and as to the arguments about 'in the real world' - in the real world people hold inventory, pay employees, move items around from one place to another... people pay extra for some sort of added value. Convenience is legitimately an added value, if the auction house is really that much trouble to use for some people that know it's there and how to use it. When people simply don't know enough about the auction house, it's not added value, it's taking advantage of ignorance. Some resellers offers are so low it's hard to imagine they are getting anyone who actually knows the value of their mats and is happily paying the price for convenience. Others may be more reasonable.
Haven't seen them, but I don't see the problem with selling them things that sell below the AH list price. They're taking on a risk if a material sells for only 10 crowns on the AH, but requires 25 crowns to actually list there, even if they only pay 3 crowns for it.
Actually thanks for advertising them, I've been looking for somewhere to dump all my [ecto drops]. If they're buying above vendor prices, then great!