Spiral Knights - Phantoms

Phantoms

56 replies [Last post]

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:22

Cobalt

Legacy Username

I'm kinda having an issue with these new fellas. The graveyard is truly a place to be scared. First off I'll come across the blocks that need 3 hits to break, using my CIV it took a few seconds, And within those seconds I was cursed. Ok, so, I then try to shield myself from it. It didn't work. It charge walked after me and then teleported right up to me when it was done, It makes my shield turn red with just one bullet blade.

In my opinion these things are kinda OP. They can obliterate you when you come across those 3 second bombs or the blocks.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:26

Aeca

Legacy Username

I'm just basing this off of your reaction.

Is there no way to fend them off, even temporarily? Perhaps a nice way to make them reasonable would be to allow Knights to stun them temporarily by hitting them with a KB attack, such as the third slash of a Proto Sword for example. I haven't come across any Graveyards yet, so I'm just basing this off of your reaction.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:28

Shoebox

They should have those Holy

They should have those Holy Waterball things spawn around the place and make them cause him to fall apart temporarily.

That would be cool.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:31

Cobalt

Legacy Username

Oh thanks for reminding me

Oh thanks for reminding me Aeca!

You can fend them off for a bit, But once you get to far away or stop for a tiny second the little orb comes back to get ya.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:34

Cherub

Developer

Phantoms

Phantoms can only be temporarily halted before they pick up the chase again. As such, a victory is never truly found when facing them. (At least, with this iteration.)

The phantoms as you see them are certainly rough around the edges. They're suppose to cause a tense situation, not a frustrating one, so like most everything we will be adjusting as needed with your feedback taken heavily in consideration.

Good luck.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:34

Aeca

Legacy Username

Charge Attacks might also make sense.

Instead of the KB effect, Charge Attacks might also make sense for temporarily disabling these Phantoms. Just an idea.

Out of curiosity, how do you fend them off as of now?

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:40

Cobalt

Legacy Username

Well, I just attacked the

Well, I just attacked the living hell out of em till they turned back into the little orbs.

And thanks for the luck, Blackhat! I'll need it. :c

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:44

Espeonage

^ ^ ^

"I just attacked the living hell out of em"

But...

But they are a living hell. Literally!

Ho! Paradox!

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:51

Cobalt

Legacy Username

Haha!

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:54

Pauling

Can they come back to you

Can they come back to you anywhere?

I envision a scenario where players might want to stop for a moment to send tells, invite friends, or (after clearing all nearby monsters) get up and grab a snack before going to the next level. If a phantom can swoop out of nowhere without any trigger events, that sort of pause for breath becomes much harder.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 22:57

#10

Cobalt

Legacy Username

Yeah, I stopped after killing

Yeah, I stopped after killing a zombie to wait for all the drops to fall, And whoop-di-do he is coming along making this noise.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 23:19

#11

kakelgis

Legacy Username

Faced a Phantom just to check

Faced a Phantom just to check it out a while ago.

I must say, having my shield instantly destroyed in a single charge attack from him isn't nice. And then later taking 11 HP bars of damage on a single hit, then being cursed for one whole minute with all my weapons, including vials, cursed.

Fallen armor really isn't the best for this.

Although the Phantoms could be an interesting challenge, since there's really no way to stop them and they're so powerful, it seems a bit overwhelming. I'd be able to kill only one or two zombies, before the Phantom would pop back in and I'd have to either run or smash him away. Neither worked very well, considering his attacks.

The Phantom could be an interesting challenge, but considering he's immortal it's not really working very well. Maybe if he was actually killable, but would reappear every few minutes it would be better? (I guess it's kinda like this currently, but they seem to start chasing again a bit too fast after you stop them)

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 23:34

#12

Shoebox

I remember in the last

I remember in the last Preview Event, there was a stage that had a Golden (indestructible) Trojan in it. You had to dodge him and hit gate switches with urns or a gun to get in and get a golden key and back out again.

But when you were holding the gold key, you had to stand near the switches to get his attacks to hit them, or put it down and throw an urn or shoot your gun, whatever.

It was a challenging part of the level and all around, made the stage quite difficult.
But it was well implemented challenge and there were a number of ways to solve it.

This Phantom seems to only exist to bring the pace of Graveyards up from stepping on a single grave at a time, using a Dread Venom Striker charge attack and receiving loot.

There's no challenge to him, there's not even anything remotely fair about his existence.
He seems to be omnipotent as well.

There are whole host of better ways the Phantom could be implemented.
This way isn't inherently bad, but he needs to be either easier to manage, or different in the way he works.

The waterball things, like the ones from Firestorm Citadel, could hit him and transform the Phantoms into Angel kind of things, but you might have to avoid his attacks until you find one and cleanse him.
There could be more than one in a Graveyard as well (though not more than one at time unless it's specifically called for), which would help pace a level without it being to annoying difficult.

Just like all horror movie bad guys, he should be set to slow, deliberate walking speed. His footsteps should be fairly audible when he's off screen by a few squares and his attacks should take a bit longer to charge up to whomp you with, kind of like the other Undeads.

This scheme of pacing was successfully used in a whole number of games, specifically platformers.
The boulder run levels in Crash Bandicoot, the Minecart race levels in Donkey Kong Country, etc.

Spaces between a cleansed Phantom and one you've yet to encounter could be checkpoints with treasure or whatever in them.
There's also have to be some way to stop people just rushing to the waterball then going back and killing all the skeletons they missed as well.
It could work if it was done right.

This is just one idea on how he could change, though.

Wed, 03/02/2011 - 23:55

#13

Cromendi

Hmmm, it should make a

Hmmm, it should make a special sound/tone when it's near you and have a detection range.

After looking for you for a while it could whisper something along the line of "Ssssssspiiiiiiiiraaaaalllllllllll...." in a raspy tone.

Kinda like nemesis from resident evil.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 00:36

#14

Pupu

Legacy Username

There should be some kind of rest areas, to lower the tension a little.

Also, if they can get frost or shocked, there you have easymode.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 12:54

#15

PsychoDan

Legacy Username

As far as I could tell,

As far as I could tell, they're immune to all status effects. I threw a handful of vials at the one I encountered, and none of the affected it.

I think they'd be less frustrating if they'd just take longer to reactivate. Right now there's just no breathing room at all once one shows up.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 17:15

#16

Kawaii_Desu

Legacy Username

It's not like they teleport

It's not like they teleport to your current location.
They follow you by flying everywhere, even through walls as wisp o' wills.

So the best thing to do in that case is to split up if you have a party or go really far away.

Thu, 03/03/2011 - 20:34

#17

Ready

To be perfectly honest I'd

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have the zombies mob me than deal with the phantoms. Thus far the phantoms haven't been 'fun' since they are super annoying for seemingly zero reward.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 00:10

#18

Kavron

How many phantoms are there

How many phantoms are there per level? I've only played graveyard once since, and it was with one person, and we got two. Is it always two or is it based on party size?

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 00:31

#19

Cromendi

It's based on party I think.

It's based on party I think. Graveyard is pretty much a run through level as of now.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 06:03

#20

medibot

Legacy Username

After running through a

After running through a graveyard level last night, I feel like the Phantom is too agile. I am fine with the Phantom being quick on its ethereal feet, but I feel like it shouldn't be able to turn on a dime or do a quick dodge. I'd prefer a feel that was close to the Phantos in Super Mario Bros 2: it's charging at you as fast as it can, but a careful last-minute or near-last-minute dodge can put you outside of its turning radius. If it becomes desirable to have the Phantom "off" for certain segments of the stage, take another page from the SMB2 book and make it only try to run you down while you're holding a key. This would also solve the complaint of getting murdered while waiting for the countdown blocks to explode or bashing through multi-hit blocks.

Being immune to status effects is fine, as it shouldn't be trivially solvable. Making the Phantom take significant knockback from attacks could be an interesting solution to try. An increase in downtime when defeated, possibly increasing more when defeated multiple times, could also help mitigate the need to rush the exit and ignore other level features as much as possible.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 06:40

#21

Kawaii_Desu

Legacy Username

How about this? Phantoms

How about this?
Phantoms don't appear during the first few minutes of the stage, but staying in the level too long will cause them to appear.
Kinda like what the description mentions.

Also, they should have more than a Gran Faust-esque weapon.
They should have varieties of weapons.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 07:24

#22

RisingIXA

Legacy Username

phantom distraction?

The graviton vortex sucks in phantoms as well when they are in their normal form AND their purple-orb form. I found that really useful while running graveyards, as I could just place a graviton vortex to buy me an extra 10 seconds every time (:

Not sure if there are any other better ways to annoy/distractions, but this is the bet way I've found so far and I just wanted to share it (:

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 18:33

#23

Pupu

Legacy Username

How about

How about we rip off Mario, and phantoms can't move if you're looking at them?

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 18:59

#24

Vlad

Lol Pupu. Then everyone would

Lol Pupu. Then everyone would b spinning in circles throughout the level.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 19:11

#25

Coriolis

Game Master

You've been in groups where

You've been in groups where people aren't spinning in circles throughout the level? :O

Especially if someone is carrying a key, spinning is compulsory!

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 19:12

#26

Shoebox

I wish you could sell those

I wish you could sell those solid gold keys.

They'd be worth thousands if you melted them down into bars.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 19:22

#27

Berol

Phantoms are too

Phantoms are too overpowered.
Past the point of frustration.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 19:39

#28

Echo

Phantoms should be kill-able

Phantoms should be kill-able and drop gran fausts

But, seriously one of there forms needs to be slowed down. Orb form are to fast to be able to go through obstacles you can't even run away correctly. Then just pop up next to you turn into tangible form and kill ya.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 20:21

#29

Pupu

Legacy Username

Haha

@Coriolis

I, for one, think the spinning should be encouraged.
Your name is Coriolis, I think you will agree with me.

Well, not stopped, but maybe slowed by 50% should be fun enough.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 21:57

#30

Ynahteb

Right, so I don't really

Right, so I don't really think they're that bad (Disclaimer: I've only met the tier 2 phantoms). You can't stop moving...so what? He chases you, you whack him a couple times, and continue on your merry way phantom free for a while; rinse, repeat.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 21:56

#31

Kavron

Its worse with multiple

Its worse with multiple people, and with lower star gear. Two party group, two phantoms gang up on one person, and kill them, then turn their combined attention to the other person and kill them as well. At least make it so that each phantom can only focus on one player. Or even worse, each phantom is only visible and tangible to a different player.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 22:30

#32

Dogrock

I did a T3 Graveyard with

I did a T3 Graveyard with Kitty last night... Wow I think some of the Firestorm Citadel levels are easier. I think the thing that really got me was having all the Skellies spawn at once in a Graveyard section, I got trapped and thoroughly whomped.

If it was one Phantom I could likely collect the loot by circle strafing the Skellies with my Magma Driver, but two Phantoms following the same player is eventual death if you want to attack at the same time. That Grand Faust charge attack is brutal, never mind the Curse. It's a big pile of Shadow damage hurting (even with ~120 Shadow defense!).

You can change the Phantom's focus by attacking it, so you can have someone play bait. Though they need a large Skelly-free area to run wide circles in. Using the strategy and parties of 4 should be able to get though without having to energy revive.

I think it would be better if the Phantom had a large chunk of health you could eliminate and then afterward it would have to have a cool down before spawning again. So you could have some quiet time, or just run like crazy.

Fri, 03/04/2011 - 23:23

#33

Pupu

Legacy Username

Also

I think they should curse you for WAY less.
30 seconds of curse is an abomination.

And deal some less damage or be more predictable.

Sat, 03/05/2011 - 01:12

#34

Hoogie

Legacy Username

I think...

It should be turned into a really strong but killable zombie... like a Deadwood, or a Tortodoom... or a Soul Greaver

Sat, 03/05/2011 - 07:21

#35

Dhugal

Legacy Username

Irritating

While I don't disagree that the graveyards needed a little more variety and risk, I think the phantoms come too far out the other side. I used to find graveyards a kind of boring grind that at least gave me a decent return on the time they took. Now I find them incredibly irritating wastes. The phantoms just aren't fun to fight, which makes the whole level type a bust for me. I race through it as fast as I can just to avoid dealing with the little twerps and skip any bonus stuff like crystals because I simply don't want to waste the time.

Anything that turns a boring level into an irritating level is a bad move in my opinion. Something about them needs to get tweaked.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 00:01

#36

Fallout

,..... LOL, im probably the

,..... LOL, im probably the only person who likes the phantoms then. sure they kill you a heap unless you've got crowd control (nitronome FTW) but i just like the added challenge. but the spawn rate could probably dropped to two......10 in a 4 player party wasn't nice dealing with and it was basically; stuff the zombies run for your life as if they were creepers.... and the entire time i was fighting them i couldn't get the black knight thing out of my house; YOU CAN'T KILL ME! I'M INVINCIBLE.....

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 01:56

#37

Njthug

Umm

My View on Phantoms:

Only thing they would be good for is dropping their SUPER GRAUN FAUST which does a Divine Avenger Spec, and dosent even curse them.... I mean how much does 1 of those swords cost I will buy for 150k Crowns right now lol...Regardless they are over powered in tier 1 and 2 its pretty easy, when I get that map in tier 3 I have to run for my life since its useless fighting back. Honestly, there a lot of overpowered elements and monsters in this new update. I like a challenge, but when it leads to basically a game which has close to unbeatable standards well then the challenge is just annoying.

*off-topic*

Solo-ing Tier 3 is nearly impossible now without wasting a lot of energy on reeves.....Fix tis please =)

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 02:15

#38

Cromendi

Lol, do agree on the tier 3

Lol, do agree on the tier 3 balancing.... would be alot more fun if you don't get screen laged by 3 optical blast too.

I suggest that a level system for the phantom, each time you kill it the spawn time of it would get longer and with each re-spawn it would get stronger.

Now that would make thing less frustrating but still keep it a threat.

Mon, 03/07/2011 - 16:52

#39

Pupu

Legacy Username

After playing graveyards a little, it seems the optimal strategy is to run in circle dropping bombs, then looting whatever the skellies drop and moving on.

Tue, 03/08/2011 - 10:15

#40

Crawdaunt

Legacy Username

I think all phantoms really

I think all phantoms really need to fix them is a MUCH slower move speed, maybe half that of the player, as well as reduced curse time from their Gran Fausts. Either that, or implement some sort of respawn system for them as others have said.

Wed, 03/09/2011 - 19:21

#41

Lightmikey

Legacy Username

Oh god, get rid of the

Oh god, get rid of the phantoms.

I don't mind dying in a horde of monsters in a danger room, because that's more indicative of problems with skill or equipment choices.

The graveyards have already gotten some challenge added to them with many zombies crawling out at once while trapped in a small area and the only way out has spikes, rocks, or bomb cubes. The addition of the phantoms is a kick in the teeth, especially since their damage is far greater than the baseline for the zone, and shields seem to be barely effective against him.

I like the idea of a monster that bestows curse. I do not like the idea of an unkillable monster that bestows curse, especially one that appears to be able to move through walls and gates, and sometimes even hides from your attacks outside the walls.

I think the description for the faust says that it's weilded by devilites. Good. Give a faust to the devilites and knock off the phantoms. Or scale it down a bit so it's trapped by walls or, you know, actually killable.

There's challenge, and then there's frustration. This is nothing but frustration.

Wed, 03/09/2011 - 19:47

#42

Providence

Legacy Username

Reverse Totem Solution

I like the phantoms now, but that may just be because I don't have problems with them (I've only encountered them in T1 and T2).
I usually just melee them until they turn into that little red ball; I find them even easier with the recent nerf.

Maybe they could be turned into another boss? Or, let's say, a special floor that requires you to kill them by solving a puzzle. Those totems that resurrect any zombie within a certain radius could be done in a reverse style for the phantoms--making the phantoms killable, but only within the radius of a statue that must be picked up and moved around.

Wed, 03/09/2011 - 23:19

#43

CaptainE

Legacy Username

I think there should be like

I think there should be like a jar or something that we make an energy tribute to and it eats all the phantoms. For me, it would be worth it.

Wed, 03/09/2011 - 23:37

#44

Hoogie

Legacy Username

lol. or an uncommon drop, the

lol. or an uncommon drop, the exorcism vial

Thu, 03/10/2011 - 13:39

#45

Saphykun

Nerfing ftw

After nerfing Phantoms thoughts:
Just finished a Graveyard level on Tier 3 and cleaned out everything. Yes, everything. Without dying. The only thing you need is a Prismatech Alchemer MK3 or any gun that deals extra damage against the Undead.
The Phantoms are considerably slower now:

The time it takes for Phantoms in orb form to track you takes two times longer, giving you enough time to run and find open space without bailing for the exit
Attacks are slower, thus more predictable
Curse can be lifted by using a Status pill (duh)

I'm very glad the Phantoms were nerfed as badly as the Volcanic Pepperbox. Now graveyards are much more bearable, less frustrating, but still scary to run around in.
(And now that Phantoms are slower, they actually look cuter. <3)

Thu, 03/10/2011 - 15:58

#46

Providence

Legacy Username

>(And now that Phantoms are

>(And now that Phantoms are slower, they actually look cuter. <3)

"Stop running! I want to nibble your brains!"

Tue, 07/12/2011 - 04:55

#47

aps11

Legacy Username

"people would be spinning the whole level"

Everyone does that anyway

Tue, 07/12/2011 - 04:58

#48

iSpycheck

Legacy Username

Way to necro!

Tue, 07/12/2011 - 05:18

#49

aps11

Legacy Username

My thoughts on phantoms,

My thoughts on phantoms, maybe improvements to be made:

They got nerfed big time a little while ago, which seemed to make a difference

My shield (heat 10 plate shield, 2 star) doesn't break on contact with the charged sword attack, although it does make it yellow

With the voice chat enabled, everyone ALWAYS simultaneously says "oh SH*T" as soon as they hear the phantoms roaring (makes me laugh every time)

Maybe when they get incapacitated, you should be able to hit the orb until it breaks and it drops 2 gold coins. because of high loot the orb would have to have about, oh, 300 health in tier 1, 600 in tier 2 and 1000 in tier 3.

for a real tease, only make each phantom tangible to an individual player, all their teammates can see is the glowing orb and the trail from the sword swings :D EPIC

finally (as suggested earlier) have holy water blobs spawn around the graveyard, which you throw at phantoms to "cleanse" them into angels which circle heal the whole team (for as much as a health capsule on the tier) and the blobs dont respawn to prevent spam of the water blobs every time you see a phantom
OR
make it so they DO respawn but the holy water only works if they've been incapacitated, at which point the orb turns white-ish yellow and floats there for a few seconds before healing the team (and possibly reviving anyone, giving them an amount of health equal to whatever a health capsule heals at the tier)

i threw this together as i went along, plus it's 1AM so gimme a break if any of it sounds OP or unbalanced

Tue, 07/12/2011 - 05:19

#50

aps11

Legacy Username

also on a side note

50th post :P

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