If everyone who stays around (and i wonder what the attrition rate is. Pretty high, I bet.) pays and average of $10 for an account, they'll never need to pay any money ever again. The problem is, it's just too easy to get rich. However, too hard to make money might discourage newcomers. Can Spiral Knights really attract enough people to make it profitable? I wonder what their long-term expansion plans are.
Is Spiral Knights really a sustainable economic model?
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 18:15
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 18:37
#2
No worries.
Don't worry about it man, this is easy for OOO to fix, it's not nearly as screwed up as our economy in the real world.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:29
#3
Well...
All we need is a Mist Tank NPC.
That's seriously all we need to balance the economy. Mist Tanks will cost 3k and CE can stay at 6k. Newbies won't have a hard time, and there will be slightly less dependency on CE. You'll still need to use CE if you want to get anywhere past Tier 2, so yeah. People will still buy CE.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:32
#4
Wow!
Ren_Partycat thats the smartest solution i have EVER SEEN! CE for onyl crafting, 3k for mist tank. i commend you.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:40
#5
If the problem is that there
If the problem is that there might not be enough people buying crystal energy at some point in the future, then creating easy alternatives to it so that people don't have to buy nearly as much crystal energy makes the problem worse, not better.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:57
#6
@Quizzical
Oh really? Would you care to explain that even further?
I have friends who have been playing since beta. The idea of having an NPC sell mist tanks was their idea, not mine. And it's still a great idea. Just because it lowers dependency a bit doesn't mean that people will stop buying CE. Since you can carry only 100 Mist Energy at a time, the best items you can make are 2 star items. So you HAVE to spend crowns or real money on CE. With a Mist Tank NPC, it helps newbies and those with less fortune get through the game even when the economy is bad. Less dependency, less grinding, less stress. In the game's current state, it's very hard on newbies. It makes new players want to quit. And here's a bit of common sense when it comes to real-world economics: You can't earn money without customers. If the game starts losing new players, Three Rings will start losing money. Because not everyone is going to continue playing the game only to grind on JK/Vanaduke. Regardless of new updates and content, many of us are going to get bored and quit. New players are supposed to make up for the loss of players. And if the game's too hard on newbies, the game will lose new players. And if the game loses new players, Three Rings loses profit. Get the idea?
So please, explain how the idea of a Mist Tank NPC makes everything worse. Oh wait, you can't. Come at me bro.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 19:59
#7
Well, if you're serious about
Well, if you're serious about getting tier 5 stuff, you'll burn a bit over two dollars in just crafting tier 5 equipment as it requires 800ce (3500 ce = $10 or 350ce = $1). Add in the number of runs needed to obtain and level the equipment, and your energy usage goes up considerably.
The other alternative to not buying crystal energy, is to amass enough crowns to buy the energy. Include the recipe cost, the material cost and the crafting cost, you would have to amass somewhere between 60k to 100 k crowns for just the T5 gear alone (due to energy market volatility). Stingy players can only play an hour a day, or a single jelly run a day (yields 5k + crowns). At best it will take twelve days to get the necessary crowns for the next piece of gear.
For a person who dislikes the game, this slow pace of progression will probably cause them to leave. A person who's played the game enough for free, and has liked the game will be tempted to pay real money to play. You'll have a good idea of whether people are paying for the game by looking at wolvers (i think they're pretty abundant). If you have seen a lot of grey armored wolvers during your play time, you can be certain that money has been paid a some point. Essentially anyone in 4* gear must have paid at some point in the game, unless they're some sort of brutally efficient machine.
Finally whether their model is economically viable depends on what their cost for letting a player play for an hour is. We get 100 free energy which is about an hours worth of play time; if we paid for it would be close to 30 cents. If their hourly cost per play is considerably less than 30 cents an hour, they're probably making a profit.
It's the return of the old arcade machine with spiffier graphics, an incomplete game, the promise of more content, a harsh and convoluted pricing scheme (Play recklessly in Tier 3 and those $10 will fade away like the morning mist). As with all old arcade machines, the game will be around as long as they make more than the maintenance cost.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 21:05
#8
Well about that
You really have to think about the consequences. If 3k mist tanks were made available, the people who mass craft 2* gear for UV's would have a party. The value on UV's would drop like a rock and mat prices would go up. And rising mat costs would make it harder for a newer player to advance further into the game. By adding new features to the economy, many many things can change, not all of which can be predicted or seen ahead of time
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 21:22
#9
@Ren
@posts 3 and 6: How you are so certain that a mist tank NPC would improve the game is beyond me. Your idea sounds like a complete disaster and would drastically reduce the number of dollars spent on CE and very possibly ruin the crowns economy as well.
Firstly, you're introducing a way to create energy using only crowns. Given that you'd want this mist energy to be cheaper than CE, this essentially means that intelligent players will never spend money on elevators or revival costs again (unless they die so much it costs over 100energy to revive). That's an enormous reduction to demand for CE. Even at current prices of ~6k cr/100ce, players right now run through clockworks on CE, because it is most definitely still profitable if done right. But not with the implementation of your idea.
Your idea would also increase the number of players who run through the clockworks. That sounds great and all, until you consider the economic ramifications. After all, for 3k cr per mist tank, any tier 2 or tier 3 run is highly profitable. This would increase the supply of crowns and materials, meaning that over time the value of crowns would be devalued. Devalued crowns will raise the relative price of buying CE with crowns. What's worse is that while currently the price of CE is kept down by the fact that as the price of CE rises, fewer people run through the clockworks on CE (because the profit margin becomes smaller), with your mist tank NPC this restriction is gone entirely. The price of CE via crowns could triple, quadruple, or whatever... yet people would STILL buy it because players can earn as many crowns as they like using mist to run dungeons.
Yet another hit to demand for CE is that players have no reason not to use all their mist while crafting items. Yes, it will still require CE to craft 3* items and higher, but no longer is there any reason to craft on CE alone. Currently, players will craft on CE alone because their mist is restriced; perhaps they don't want to spend a day simply crafting and thus giving up running dungeons for the day, or maybe they just finished a dungeon and want their new gear now. With your mist tank NPC, it's simply foolish not to use mist energy as part of the crafting process. This reduces demand for CE even further.
All of these effects would combine to reduce the amount of CE people buy with real money. In addition, crowns would be devalued via guaranteed profitability of dungeon running. Both seem pretty sucky to me.
The only factor that helps us is that, theoretically, a mist tank NPC would cause more people to try the game and keep playing. Ren, you seem so sure of yourself that your idea will make everything better. I can't say I share your optimism.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 21:24
#10
Make it harder to craft
If they require about 5 times as many materials to craft gear, I think this would help. It wouldn't hurt to increase the crown cost as well. This way, you can still play but gives us something to spend our wealth on. Too many people have way to much disposable "income" in this game. Paying for specific UV's (perhaps with real-world money) might be another good idea. I just feel bad that I get to play all this time and forever for that one-time payment of $10 (and a second free account). But if they required me to subscribe and make monthly payments, I'd stop right away.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 22:14
#11
@Eradicats
The solution to that is simple: make Basil be the one with the chance to sell Mist Tanks. And make it a *chance*, not guaranteed.
It's sort of the median between fully buyable mist tanks, and how things work now.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 22:23
#12
Three Rings makes money from
Three Rings makes money from this game by selling crystal energy. That's the only way they make money from the game. If they sell less crystal energy, they make less money. If they sell more crystal energy, they make more money. Got that?
Next step: crystal energy used = crystal energy purchased with real money. This assumes that all crystal energy that is created is eventually used, which isn't quite true. But it's a close enough approximation. Basically, the rate at which Three Rings makes money is equal to the rate at which crystal energy gets used. With me so far?
Suppose that you can buy mist takes purely for crowns. Why would anyone spend crystal energy on elevators after that, instead of mist energy? Even if you were willing to pay money for the energy, why not sell 100 crystal energy on the market for 6k crowns, use 3k of those crowns to buy a mist tank, use the mist tank, have your 100 energy, and have 3k crowns left over? Discreteness makes this not quite work perfectly, of course. But instead of people frequently using crystal energy for elevators, revives, and crafting, now the only time people would use much crystal energy at all would be 100 to craft a three star item, 300 for a four star, 700 for a five star, 50 for a trinket slot upgrade, 150 for a weapon slot upgrade, and 700 for a heat upgrade. Vastly less crystal energy would be used than before by any given player.
But wait, we just said that money for Three Rings = crystal energy used. Vastly less crystal energy used by any given player means vastly less money for Three Rings by any given player. See the problem?
What you're doing is something akin to picking up a subscription game where a subscription costs $15/month, saying that the subscription cost should be reduced to $5/month, and then insisting that this won't actually cost the company any money. If it means ten times as many subscribers, then maybe it wouldn't. But people who think that $15/month is a lot of money to pay for a game that you like tend to be kids who can't pay a subscription fee at all, and still wouldn't pay $5/month. The lower prices will lead to a few more players, but not a lot more players.
-----
"For a person who dislikes the game, this slow pace of progression will probably cause them to leave."
Or maybe disliking the game will cause the person to leave. If you dislike a game, isn't that enough reason to quit right there, regardless of the business model?
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 22:33
#13
Quizzical hit the nail on the
Quizzical hit the nail on the head.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 23:06
#14
Looool
So please, explain how the idea of a Mist Tank NPC makes everything worse. Oh wait, you can't. Come at me bro.
I know this isn't constructive, but this line was hilarious.
Tue, 07/12/2011 - 23:26
#15
Lol, if u planning to simply
Lol, if u planning to simply to upgrade to 4* then ,yes just buy the 9.95 package. But you need more then 7K CE to get full set 5*
( 2 weps, 1 helm, 1 armor, 1 shield )
2* = 50ce
3* = 200ce
4* = 400ce
5* = 800
Total = 1450CE X 5 = 7250 CE
Not counting the recipes, mats, and crafting costs.
You need to at least buy $20 dollars worth of CE to "finish" the game.
And adding a Mist Tank NPC could help but, could also create problem. Setting refilling price at 3K is wayyyyyy to low, it need to be at least 4-5k crowns so that CE prices doesn't skyrocket. Setting it at 4-5k crowns could help Newbie out cuz it a stable price that they dont need to worry about and ppl can't make giant profit off 100CE so that it doesn't decreased value of crowns.
@Quizzical - I don't think CE value is going to decrease or increase if ME price is set right. If you set the price for ME at 3k then the CE price would increases like krazy because the value of crowns are going to drop. Crowns is going to drop because ppl now could make 3k crowns profit in a run making crowns less valuable and therefore increasing the value of CE. But if you set the ME price at like 4-5k, ppl could only make a 1k profit and have a limit for refilling each day so ppl dont farm like crazy.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 01:07
#16
What I want is a costume
What I want is a costume shop, where I can buy epic costumes with CE.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 01:20
#17
"I don't think CE value is
"I don't think CE value is going to decrease or increase if ME price is set right. If you set the price for ME at 3k then the CE price would increases like krazy because the value of crowns are going to drop."
No, no, no. Just stop. You're completely missing the point. You might as well have retorted with, "but the sky is blue!" Three Rings doesn't care if 100 crystal energy costs a thousand crowns, or ten thousand, or a hundred thousand. Well, they do kind of care, but only for indirect reasons.
Three Rings cares how much crystal energy is bought with real life money, or perhaps rather, how much real life money is used to purchase crystal energy (which is almost the same thing, but not quite). If only half as much crystal energy is bought with real money as before, then Three Rings only gets half as much revenue from the game. It doesn't matter if the price of buying crystal energy with crowns falls by half, doubles, or stays exactly the same. If not enough crystal energy is bought with real money, then Three Rings can't make money on the game. That's a "pull the plug and shut down the game" type of problem, and in severe enough cases, a "lay off all of the employees and liquidate the company" type of problem.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 01:47
#18
Daniel James the CEO of 3R,
Daniel James the CEO of 3R, is actually quite vocal about these things. If you want a peek about how their f2p business model works. Check out this article. He even gives out their figures for 'average revenue per paying user' (ARPPU) for Puzzle Pirates.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 01:55
#19
"The value on UV's would drop
"The value on UV's would drop like a rock and mat prices would go up. And rising mat costs would make it harder for a newer player to advance further into the game."
No, they absolutely would not.
Apart from a couple 5-star mats, they cost so little in comparison to the CE crafting cost, that even a large rise in mat cost won't hurt newbies more than dropping CE costs would help them. Bushy tails, the most expensive 3-star item, now only go for about 700 credits buyout on AH, or about 12 CE. Trojan horseshoes, the most expensive 4-star item, now only go for about 2500 credits buyout on AH, which is quite a bit under 50 CE. Compare that to the respective 200 and 400 CE crafting costs for 3- and 4- star items.
Either way, you can always craft items that are slightly worse than the best, but require much cheaper materials. It's ok if people get gear that is 20% worse but twice as easy to obtain.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 03:18
#20
Assuming
Assuming that there is a mythological ME seller for 3k. People want to mass craft say caliburs. To masscraft, you need parts, so suddenly blue shards get gobbled up really quickly. Now lets say a newer player wants to get the 4* calibur. (ascended?) ok. They need blue shards. But wait, they've all been bought up by the experienced player whos mass crafting caliburs for UV's. Because the demand for blue shards has risen a lot, and the supply is still the same, the price shoots up along with it.
This hasn't ever happened yet, so there's no really accurate model that one can use, but heres one that shows similar effects.
When this game was released on Steam, all the newer steam players who wanted to get better items. With the same supply, but a larger demand, the prices on mats rose ridiculously. Swordstones for almost 2k, Blue shards at 300, etc. So suddenly for the newer players, the time spent saving money doubled or tripled.
Now you point out that this rise can no way be compared to the already large crating cost. Yes the resulting price rise wont be as large as the crating costs, but a rise is a rise regardless of size and it will make it harder for newer players
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 06:26
#21
"That's seriously all we need
"That's seriously all we need to balance the economy. Mist Tanks will cost 3k and CE can stay at 6k. Newbies won't have a hard time, and there will be slightly less dependency on CE. You'll still need to use CE if you want to get anywhere past Tier 2, so yeah. People will still buy CE."
this!
the best solution ever and we need it! :)
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 07:10
#22
I agree that the simple
I agree that the simple solution to potential economic problems is a way to buy either Mini or full-size Mist tanks from an NPC.
However, they should cost Crystal Energy. Specifically, a discounted rate of Crystal Energy.
Something like 10~12 CE for a Mini Mist Tank, and 80 CE for a Mist Tank.
This makes purchasing CE and then converting it into Mist tanks a net Energy gain, allowing you to delve more than you otherwise could, while removing CE from the flow of currency (maintaining or increasing the value of still-existing CE) as well as doing nothing to remove the use of CE (you still need CE to craft 3star or higher gear, or to buy weapon/trinket slots and the heat boost.)
From this plan: players win cheap Energy for delving and low-star transmutations, Three Rings wins more cash from CE purchases. There are no losers because this does nothing to remove the utility (and therefore value) of CE while it does allow players more interested in delving than crafting to do so.
EDIT: The reason I feel this is a superior solution to that of selling energy tanks for Crowns is because this plan has much less impact on the Crown-to-Crystal Energy conversion rate, while selling energy tanks for crowns directly may have a larger impact, and may do so in such a manner as to negatively impact Three Rings' profits (which is bad.)
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 07:26
#23
I wrote out this really long
I wrote out this really long winded comment, but in retrospect, everything I was trying to say can be summed up pretty easily. OP, I know you probably think this is a great idea, but even if it wasn't your plan, someone out there would find a way to abuse the system for profit, I can already think of two or three ways.
Every time I read a post from someone supporting this idea, It reads to me like "Hey, I Don't wanna pay for any CE or anything guys, I know that's how you developers support the game, but if you could just take a serious hit to your profit so I can play all day for free, that would be great, plus it would help the newer players right?
Can someone please throw out an energy suggestion that doesn't break the economy just so a few impatient newbies can get their 5* a few days faster? I know everyone has good intentions, but the main thing you need to consider when thinking of changes to the game, is "How can someone abuse this to their advantage"
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 07:34
#24
Hey Radioinactiv, check out
Hey Radioinactiv, check out my post. Selling Energy Tanks for CE (not Cr) provides an incentive for people to buy more CE, as Mist Energy is useful but cannot replace Crystal Energy for all functions.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 07:36
#25
Monsters should have much
Monsters should have much more HP, so a run needs 22 hours.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 07:42
#26
Dang, this is a good thread!
I love reading your guys' comments, even though I can barely comprehend the mathematics/economics of it all. The company certainly has a lot to consider when planning out a game like this. I hope these comments are benefiting them cuz, bottom line, I really want to see this site continue. It would take the patience of Job to play for free and slowly accrue crowns and energy enough to craft higher gear. That's why you have to buy at least one of their package deals. But then you get better and craft profitably and make a mint off those Basil 23 recipes you resell, so that you never need spend real money on the site again, which is kind of too bad. I'll say this again, we need more ways to spend our crowns, either by making crafting more expensive or offering us alternatives like those energy boosters. On a somewhat unrelated note, I doubt we'll see unbinding anytime soon. Those of us who were here before the patch that changed that know how much that messed up the game by allowing anybody to just come in and buy 5* gear. The only possible plus side was that people were spending real money to get CE to convert into crowns to buy this stuff. Oh, and that was pre-Auction House days, so it was pretty wild in the trade chat!
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 08:13
#27
It's called capitalism.
It's called capitalism. Spiral Knights is AMERICA the Game.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 08:35
#28
>implying you know anything about economics
Some of you think that the raw idea of a Mist Tank NPC would ruin the game's economy. You haven't given me a chance to explain how exactly such an NPC will be implemented.
At each Subtown, a Gremlin NPC sells one Mist Tank if you completed a dungeon run from start to finish. The price should be approximately 4.5k per tank, which is a significant amount of profits gained from a Tier 1 run (4k to 6k in T1). As you move on to more dangerous Tiers, the tanks will cost more. At Tier 2, one mist tank will cost 5.3k. At Tier 3, one mist tank will cost 6.1k. So no matter what you do, you're going to lose about 2/3 of your profits when refilling on Mist. This way, you can always get a somewhat fair price on Mist Tanks. But there's an optional catch that we can throw in: The Gremlin NPC has a 50-50 chance of selling any Mist Tanks at the end of a dungeon run.
Quizzical, you have to spend money to make money. It's the first thing you should know about economics and capitalism. Do you think Three Rings pushed a big red button, and became a successful company overnight? No, they didn't. They spend time and money to get where they are today. And they got what they paid for. Besides, you need new customers to earn money. And if new players have a hard time, they're likely to quit and never bother to spend a single dollar on CE. And if new players don't come in the game to buy CE, Three Rings loses profit when the older players get bored and leave. Do you honestly think that new players will spend 20 dollars on the starter pack just because the game is difficult? They expected the game to be free to play. Not pay to play.
Stop trying to act like you know anything about economics because you don't. You're just pathetically rehashing your incoherent posts. It's hilarious.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 09:05
#29
havent paid a cent
Hi i haven't paid a cent in this game and look at where it has gotten me! I have a 4* mighty colbalt helm, a 4* wise owlite shield, 4* heavt demo suit with UV freeze resistance medium, 4* blizzbrand, 4 star shadow driver with uv slime low, 2* defender, 2* spine cone, and a sealed sword! All without paying a dime!
Interested? Well you should be! Here are some helpful tips. Plan ahead: When you use your energy think of when you might be back online and use up your energy accordingly to have a full 100 energy which you can then use up and have a full tank at all times when starting.
Be smart: Do not start off at the gate unless absolutely necessary. get a big group of friends and join your friends when nearing the most profitable depths! Never should you be starting off at the beginning ad essentially wasting 50 energy. Also with fluctuating energy prices for energy buy in bulk, meaning when it is cheap use your crowns to buy energy! You may be thinking of selling this energy later on but beware, you also need that energy to craft your own equipment, so never sell your energy. Another tip that you may or may not get a chance to try is look for bargains! On the AH you will find many cheap items, first thing find shields, swords, guns, or helms at below AH price by around 2K buy them out! next you proceed to sell them back for slightly under AH price, ensuring that you don't waste money in having to re list your item. This will make you around 1K each time, but a warning take heed and practice patience as deals are not always present.
And that my fellow combatants is how you grind your way through Spiral Knights.
PS Can someone tell the developers to hurry up and release PVP already!
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 10:50
#30
"Some of you think that the
"Some of you think that the raw idea of a Mist Tank NPC would ruin the game's economy."
You're in the wrong thread. This thread is not about the in-game economy. This thread is about Three Rings' business model, and whether the game is profitable. For them to stop charging for most things, as you propose, would make it far less so.
"They expected the game to be free to play. Not pay to play.
Stop trying to act like you know anything about economics because you don't."
Someone who seriously expects a commercial game to be completely free to play and not strongly push players to pay, and then claiming that someone else doesn't know anything about economics? Now that is funny.
Also, this:
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:13
#31
In fact even beyond that
In fact even beyond that quizzical OOO allows you to play the ENTIRE game for free if you want. You don't actually have to pay a cent to see every aspect of this game. I don't know too many micro-transaction based games where that is the case.
The point here is its all about how much your patients is worth to you. If you don't like the game then no amount of grinding is going to change that...in fact buying CE won't fix that either.
If you like the game, but don't want to grind all that time to play the end, then your option is to buy CE with real money. It's not even that expensive to get a very decent set to farm with.
If you like the game a lot and you either don't have the money or don't want to buy CE then enjoy the game and grind.
Personally I've bought CE and at times I wish I hadn't because I feel like I didn't work for the gear I got, but then I get bored of the grind and I buy some CE. I enjoy collecting different items, leveling them up, trying different techniques...all kinds of things. In the end the choice is up to you on whether you are going to pay for it or not, but this game is successful whether a few forum posters think so or not. There was a huge influx of new players from Steam, of course there is going to be a bunch of those people who joined up, wished it was something different, and then leave. They aren't the people who are going to keep this game successful and I don't want to play with them.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 11:35
#32
"In fact even beyond that
"In fact even beyond that quizzical OOO allows you to play the ENTIRE game for free if you want."
Technically, you can. And yes, some people do, and get through everything that way. But Three Rings does have some considerable incentives built in that push people to pay. That's why there are so many threads complaining that crystal energy is too expensive to buy with crowns, or proposing that people shouldn't need so much energy for anything.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:02
#33
The issue with material
The issue with material availability would be solved by players buying their lovely little mist tanks and going out to the clockworks to kill creeps to get them.
More players playing consistently to get materials (via mist availability) = More materials in circulation.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:10
#34
That's not a good thing.
That's not a good thing. There is already a glut of most non-4/5* materials and even those upper mats are dropping fast.
I think they need to increase the amount of materials needed for all crafting.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:41
#35
@Quizzical
You didn't read my entire reply.
Don't you have a retort for the third paragraph?
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 12:53
#36
I agree....
I agree with Ren, I was attracted to this game because it looked like a fun multi player hack'n slash that was *FREE TO PLAY*
Started playing thought it was quite fun, until i ran out of the 100 ME.....
This game should not be advertised as free to play, because unless you want to waste 5 months grinding the same type of dungeons to get to 5* gear, you HAVE to pay.
And no my math is not off...
I get typically 3.5-5K crowns a night, and the current cost of energy is 6000+ crowns
AND THAT'S NOT EVEN INCLUDING THE RECIPE/MAT COST!!!
And before someone says well then open another trial account, i know that is another way to grind faster, but i highly doubt the designers intended for people to do this.....
I did pay the money, but only after i realized what a time sink this game would be otherwise...
I like the game, but the tatics used to draw out its playtime are pretty obvious, and lame......
I think if they made this game just a inital 15$-20$ purchase they still would have made a lot of money, and these threads would not exist......
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:21
#37
Grinding dungeons for 5
Grinding dungeons for 5 months, Stanfy? Nah, if you don't find fighting in the dungeons enjoyable, why play at all? I kind of thought that the combat was the whole point of the game, and people who buy CE and revive 10 times in one game are like those people who keep using continues in an arcade.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:32
#38
oh i do
Oh I do find the dungeons enjoyable, but just not farming the same dungeons daily for 5 months just to get to end-game tier....
I don't play the AH, because if i wanted to waste that much time going over numbers, I would still play EVE.
I don't think this game has enough unique content to keep me interested for that long, I just want to kill some time until Diablo 3 comes out, y'know a hack and slash that has an initial purchase cost and doesn't limit you to playing 1-2 hrs a day.
THAT more than anything else pisses me off about this game, the fact that you can only really play 1-2 hrs a day, I know I could WASTE CE to go down elevators, but then I would just have to buy more when it came time to craft.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 13:59
#39
Well yeah, I see what you're
Well yeah, I see what you're saying. I'd pay for this game if it was subscription-based or a one-time cost, but I see no point in buying in-game currency with real money. So the developers/publishers aren't offering me anything I would want to buy with my money.
I guess some people would buy it, though.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 14:40
#40
"You didn't read my entire
"You didn't read my entire reply."
Actually, I did read your reply. That's your problem.
Three Rings makes money off this game only by the sale of crystal energy. You're proposing to let other things substitute for a large fraction of the crystal energy that is currently consumed. That constitutes a large price cut on the game. The particular details aren't important there. Unless there is some compelling reason to believe that at the lower prices, you'd see more crystal energy bought than before, that means losing revenue for Three Rings.
By way of analogy, suppose that a subscription game charges $15/month. If you propose changing that to $5/month or $10/month or $15 per two months or $15/month with only a 60% chance that the company will actually charge you, or $15/month if your number of seconds played for the month is even, the details don't really matter that much. That's a clear price cut on the game, and unless you manage to pick up far more customers than before, that means giving up revenue.
Likewise, it doesn't matter if the mist tank costs 2000 crowns or 3000 or 4000, or 3000 in one place and 4000 in another. Price only matters if it goes above the price of crystal energy, in which case, people would stop buying the mist tanks and they would become irrelevant. But the entire point of your proposal is to make energy available for fewer crowns. It doesn't matter if the mist tank is available all of the time or half of the time or 78.39826% of the time. That only affects how much more "free" energy you're throwing into the system that Three Rings doesn't get paid for, not whether you're doing so.
In your case, it probably would mean more players than before. But the extra players it attracts would buy very little crystal energy with real-life money. The current paying players would also adjust to buying far less crystal energy than they otherwise would have, since they can get much of the energy they need from mist tanks instead. It is extremely probable that your proposal would result in less crystal energy being purchased than before, not more.
Now, demand elasticities can be very difficult to measure in the real world. If you cut the price of a product, you expect to sell more of it, but make less per unit sold. But how that affects your profits depends on how much more you sell, and how much less you make per unit sold. That you've come up with a system sufficiently convoluted that you don't understand why it wouldn't work doesn't mean that it would magically work.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:53
#41
Wew. Oh right. Gotta address it. @Ren_Partycat.
"Some of you think that the raw idea of a Mist Tank NPC would ruin the game's economy. You haven't given me a chance to explain how exactly such an NPC will be implemented."
I'm targeting the focal point of your insolence. People don't need to give you a chance to explain how an NPC will be implemented. That's your problem. You failed to state relevant details about your idea and thus flaws were found and argued against. You brought it upon yourself, don't imply otherwise.
"Stop trying to act like you know anything about economics because you don't."
Stop trying to talk about economics. You aren't talking economics. You have simply picked up an idea and persistently attempted to make it fit. You had a faith as blind as a religious man and when people said otherwise, you retaliated with arrogant, mild and vague speculations. It's not a bad thing to alter your ideas accordingly, but it's bad when you've claimed it to be the 'cure all' and then proceed to make adjustments with the premise that nobody had given you the chance to explain. That's just denial of your faults.
I found your Mist Tank idea in the suggestions sub-forums. You initially stated in that thread that you wanted it to cost 2k crowns. You came into this thread stating 3k. More recently, you have altered it to incorporate varying costs according depth. You can't still claim it to be a 'perfect' solution when you've undeniably altered the contents twice.
"You're just pathetically rehashing your incoherent posts. It's hilarious."
The reason why Quizzical is rehashing his posts is because you're blatantly repeating yourself. The reason why you find his posts incoherent is because your comprehensive capabilities are lacking. The reason why it's hilarious...it's not.
I honestly think Quizzical is being rather mature about his approach. You continue to throw in snide remarks as though your vague arguments are conclusive, yet he chooses to ignore them. You ask him to rebuttal every little thing in your content lacking posts and he obliges, even when you lack the same courtesy. I think he's a nice bloke, props to him.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 15:51
#42
Wew.
Derp. Double post fail.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 20:10
#43
@Stormrider
Opinions on other members isn't the point here. Here's how I see the argument:
Ren: Why not add a Mist Tank NPC?
Quizzical: That would make Three Rings lose profit.
Stormrider: Agreed. As nice as it sounds, it's just not worth it.
Ren: But you have to spend money to make money. Surely this idea could be implemented in a better way.
Quizzical: Still not worth it.
Ren: Are you completely sure? What if we tweak it like this, and--
Stormrider: If CE dependency goes down, profit goes down. Get it straight.
Ren: But you have to spend money to make money. Do you really think Three Rings can make money if the high CE prices bring in less players?
Quizzical: It doesn't matter. Let the prices be high so players will have to buy CE.
Ren: Are you an idiot?
Stormrider: No, he's not. But you're a jackass.
Ren: Nobody ever listens to Ren...
*3 days later, CE costs 8k per unit*
Ren: I've lost all faith in this game...
Stormrider & Quizzical: We don't care.
Ren: Because you aren't in the shoes of a new player. And until you are, you'll see exactly what I mean.
Stormrider & Quizzical: Stop spewing nonsense. The game's fine.
*Some time later, a huge riot forms in-game*
Ren: Well I'll be damned.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 20:23
#44
This is a slight
This is a slight exaggeration, but:
Losing money on every single customer and trying to make it up in volume is not a viable business strategy.
"Because you aren't in the shoes of a new player. And until you are, you'll see exactly what I mean."
Check my join date. I haven't been around here for all that long. And when I joined, it was around 7k crowns for 100 crystal energy.
Sometimes I think Three Rings should make it so that you can't trade crowns for crystal energy at all. That would, of course, make a lot of players worse off and no one better off, so they shouldn't actually do that. But it would stop this whining from people who don't like the exchange rate.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 20:48
#45
The problem of free mist energy on multiple accounts
Here's one of the problems that I have no idea how to solve. Three Rings limits any single computer to 3 separate accounts. Good and fine. Someone can't start 3 accounts and get 3 x 100 free mist energy a day. Very smart. But if you pay for an account, then you can have an additional free account that does not share mist energy. This means that when I bought that 3500 ce for $9.95 a couple months back, Three Rings gave me not only that 3500 ce, but an additional 100 mist energy every day since then, and on into the future. This is quite a significant boost to my "income" and virtually eliminates my need to ever purchase energy from them again. And anything else they come with, such as special gear in start up packages or even some new kind of energy possibly for crafting UVs or something, can almost certainly be purchased in game with crowns or ce. So how can they solve the problem of getting a customer who paid for ce to ever pay any money ever again?
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 21:09
#46
If you really want to help
If you really want to help new players then support my mentorship suggestion. Honestly its still possible to turn a profit at current prices if the player knows what he is doing as many experienced players have shown repeatedly. What a new player needs is not a mist tank NPC or lower CE prices because honestly, people are still going to complain about cuts into their profit margin, no matter if its 3k or 6k.
@Guyjin
By your logic when Three Rings come out with a new costume set for a CE sale promotion it would be extremely rare as no one who has already purchased CE will have a need to purchase more. Then following that the pieces for the costume set would be extremely expensive, probably worth more than the CE purchased along with it. Then those who really want the set pieces or really want the CE will purchase it bringing the price down and making a profit for Three Rings. So yeah, Three Rings has got that covered.
For reference, Rose Regalia pieces came with a purchase of 3500 CE, now due to rarity the pieces sell for 20k CE each.
Wed, 07/13/2011 - 22:55
#47
@Ren and Quizz
Sorry but there's no tl;dr version
I've been reading this thread throughout the past couple of days.
Leaving aside the personal attacks, and how OOO is greedy
I agree with Quizz for the following reasons
1. Each time you make more ME available for free less CE is bought. It doesn't matter what the cost or chance of the ME.
the only way for CE to enter the game is through real life currency.
and CE needs to be expended for anything 3* or above.
Even if you never spent 1 cent playing this game, you can only go above 3* if someone else has spent money.
Introducing this idea, will in fact take revenue from OOO.
2. It will actually have no real change to the 'value' of things. (what i mean by this is the time spend to get a 5* weapon or reach the core or whatever your metric is, is still going to end up taking just as long)
If ME was sold @ 3k cr, the cost of materials will go down, crowns will be easier to make (and more will be added into the system), however CE will still be needed to craft 3*+ gear.
so CE will go up in price, for 2 reasons, less supply (because we won't need to buy as much) and more demand (people will be progressing faster and needing more CE to upgrade) and more Crowns will actually be in the system.
In the end, as in all systems/dynamics are, it will find an equilibrium where it will still take the same amount of time to achieve a goal.
You can disagree with me on this, mainly because more experienced players will be able to use the system to their advantage and less experienced will probably suffer for it.
and now to refute Ren's arguments, and if i got your arguments wrong please let me know
OOO needs to make this game friendly for new gamers.
3. YES this is true, but this is not the way to do it.
if you change this system, it will actually open it up to the advantage of experienced players, as mentioned in point 2. and mentioned before by Radioinactiv
allowing players to buy ME with CR, will actually just let experienced players gain more than inexperienced players, increasing the gap between them.
something like what xiax said, mentoring, or more tutorials, will help new players.
OOO needs to let us play more, per day without paying.
4. This is true for some people. (personally I don't have much time and 100 ME is plenty for me)
being able to buy ME will have this result, but as mentioned before, other 'side effects' that won't be good. so thou this is a solution, it's not a very optimal solution. I cannot offer you a perfect solution, and I can't even think of a better one than what is already available (buy CE with CR)
OOO needs more people to play this game. So they can make more money.
5. Of course they do, pretty self explanatory, however, I don't see how making ME purchasable will achieve this.
Conclusion
I personally believe that if OOO added more crown sinks, and crown demand, then the prices of CE will go in a better direction.
I can't be a one off thing like - style changer. but more of a daily thing... like say... lotto.. (since the game has so much RNG already)
Sorry for the long post
i hope it kills this thread!!!
Thu, 07/14/2011 - 00:37
#48
"Here's one of the problems
"Here's one of the problems that I have no idea how to solve. Three Rings limits any single computer to 3 separate accounts. Good and fine. Someone can't start 3 accounts and get 3 x 100 free mist energy a day. Very smart. But if you pay for an account, then you can have an additional free account that does not share mist energy."
In which case either you're also burning a lot of crystal energy to gear up the second character, or else the second character never goes above two star gear and never does tier 3. The first of those works out perfectly fine for Three Rings. The second would be unappealing to most players.
And it's not an accident that each account only gets its own mist energy if you've bought crystal energy. That's kind of a perk of buying crystal energy yourself.
Three Rings is trying to restrict people who have never paid enough to get them to pay. They're not trying to restrict paying members so harshly. If everyone who picked up the game paid exactly $10 and nothing more, ever, they'd probably be fine. The problem is that in a game that is "free to play", a large majority of players will never pay anything. Of course, that also includes people who pick up the game, play for an hour, decide they don't like it, and delete it.
Thu, 07/14/2011 - 08:13
#49
Oh hey, another CE thread
I recommend you read Sinxeno's thread from about a month ago. I'll summarize the main points, and go over the misconception that many people are making.
OOO's primary objective is to keep making money. They're not going to make crafting/elevators/CE cost less (or make ME more available), since that'd just cause losses for them, lessening the dependence on players purchasing CE.
To get money, they need any of the following:
a) a constant stream of new, incoming players
b) reason for older players to purchase CE from them
c) in-game advertisements during loading screens, as proposed by Tennispro in Sinxeno's discussion contest.
d) some out-of-game market as an alternate source of income, like plushies.
a) This was easy to do with the Steam release, and can be done with internet advertising, or just by providing benefits if you recommend the game to friends. It simply needs to gain popularity and momentum to get anywhere with this system alone.
b) Rose Regalia worked wonders here. Players bought millions of CE in those two weeks, which spelled tens of thousands of dollars for OOO. I can't say CE is useful past masscrafting later on in the game.
c) An alternate source of income so OOO can turn their heads to other things that matter, like implementing reforms to shut up all the whiny F2P players (I'm F2P, but I stopped my whining) in the forums.
d) Like C, but everyone wants to buy plushies and t-shirts! I'd love a pair of Chroma themed undies. Oops, that's not my tongue!
To be honest I'm still frustrated that there are posts like "Lower the price of CE!" or "demand is too high" and "OOO should put walls of energy", but I'll keep reminding myself that this is the internet, and 90% of people don't know what they're talking about.
tl;dr blahblah OOO wants money, so they're not gonna change the system and accept losses just so you can pay less for CE, but should rather implement new (better) methods of having players buy things from them.
Thu, 07/14/2011 - 08:25
#50
the only game I think devs
the only game I think devs pay for server costs is Armada Online, but the game is a dinosaur and the player base is not nearly as big as SK
OOO will change if revenue decreases