in my opinion OOO is ruining this game! i mean who is still going to play it with energy prices as high as 10k? even nowadays the game has lost its fun 100 energy = 2000cr profit. In my opinion ther should be fixed energy prices at 5k.
please share your thoughts on the future of the energy system with me!
OOO can't affect Energy prices.
Players do the prices.
Agree with Noctuelle. I know finding an eye-catching title is important, but you might want to put one fitting to the reality instead, and no flaming intended. Spiral Knights is in plain good health, and I can also tell you it had worst days.
And this is probably the 1000th+ post on "OOO should control the energy prices!!!"
The price CE is sold for is controlled by the players, not OOO. You put a limit on what they can sell it at, and the energy trade will just have an exodus and all the sellers will show up in the trade chat... which ironically a lot of the buyers won't see as trade chat is turned off by default for new knights.
~Gwen
The price CE is sold for is controlled by the players, not OOO.
The exact value of the cr<->CE exchange rate is controlled by the players, but the price range is controlled by OOO via game design choices, the real money prices they choose to sell CE at, their marketing, etc.
In my opinion, yes, OOO is digging their own grave by failing to change the game design to make crowns worth more, indeed, OOO made it worse by their crafting changes in the 5/17 release. The player levels have dropped back to about the level they were when the game went public. At the current rate, it will be back at the point of when steam players started in maybe a month or two. At that point, there will be fewer players playing spiral knights than their very old Puzzle Pirates game.
Well allow me to suggest you to quit if its your actual opinion then. No one's holding you, and if you want to "contribute" to the so-called end of the game (which is certainly not about to happen), that's pretty much a dream opportunity right?
Don't forget its holidays, many players got plenty free time to play, and therefore spend energy, which increases the demand. That's pretty much all about it, big deal.
@wrs1864
>> The exact value of the cr<->CE exchange rate is controlled by the players, but the price range is controlled by OOO via game design choices, the real money prices they choose to sell CE at, their marketing, etc.
i don't think you fully understand the situation. (please don't take this as a personal insult)
lets say for example they (3 rings) designed it so that DOUBLED the amount of crowns dropped. all that means is the cr<>ce ratio would also double.
because the current going rate is determined by how much a player is willing to pay. If players had twice as much disposable crowns, they would also pay twice as much for it.
in the end what can be measured is how much time/effort a free player is willing to give to earn 100 CE
and in turn, if 3 rings actually made crowns harder to earn, the price of CE would actually drop
so there is no real game design that will alter the effort/time taken to 100 CE ratio.
and the other side, if 3 rings added more crown sinks, or removed crown sinks, i'm talking about transfer tax, and AH cut and elevator costs. it has the same effect. increasing costs... will make players value their crowns more, less disposable crowns.. lowering CE costs...
remove those costs all together... and people have more disposable crowns.. increasing CE costs...
and again.. in the end.. the ratio is determined by how much time/effort a free player is willing to give to earn those 100 CE
and SK will die when... the free player can no longer afford the time/effort to earn those CE (because of natural inflation of CE)
What 3 rings can do...
is add more things that will introduce more CE into the market, by somehow getting people to want to buy CE. Special vanity armors or what not.
add in game mechanics and design that SLOWS down the inflation... this will at least help players stay playing a little longer...
Use your ME to earn crowns and you'll get a lot of crowns without using CE. Your patience will do the rest.
I really do wish people would stop pointing the blame for the current economy at OOO. While they do control the costs of things like elevators and crafting they do not directly influence the price of energy/crowns. That's how I would like it to stay.
lets say for example they (3 rings) designed it so that DOUBLED the amount of crowns dropped. all that means is the cr<>ce ratio would also double. because the current going rate is determined by how much a player is willing to pay.
Doubling the amount of crowns fountained into the game would not, as I said needed to be done, "change the game design to make crowns worth more". Indeed, I went further by pointing out that the 5/17 release made things worse with the change in crafting. You may be new enough to not recognize that release, it was when OOO significantly reduced the number of crowns sunk for recipes and significant increased the amount of CE needed to craft. This change made the value of crowns relative to the value of CE much much lower, therefore raising the cr<->CE exchange rate.
There are a lot of things that OOO could do to make crowns more valuable. You mentioned two. Basically, OOO needs to add far more crown sinks to the game. And, remember, anyone can get CE by opening their wallet. Crowns, on the other hand can only be obtained by playing the game. If OOO makes crowns valuable enough, people will quite willingly buy CE in order to obtain crowns, this is frequently what people do on OOO's Puzzle Pirate's game. Another thing that is important to recognize that not only is the only way to get crowns is to play the game, but to get those crowns, you *must* use energy. Therefore, all crown sinks are also energy sinks. Since a good bit of the energy sunk running gates is CE not mist energy, by making crowns more valuable, OOO is also increasing the demand for CE.
Quick Boswick is in the fountain of Haven 20!
you still missed the point.
i said for example...
what if they halved the crown drops?
that would definitely make crowns worth more. still have no real effect.
my point was that regardless of the cr to ce exchange rate.. it would take the same amount of effort to earn 100 CE through play time alone.
my point is that 3 rings can change the cr<>ce ratio with their game design, but it would not really change anything
it's the 'cost of living'. if the country has a higher average income, the price of a loaf of bread will be more.
you can't just say... people over in (insert other country) are paying 10 times less for bread and disregard they are also earning 10 times less than you.
if there were more crown sinks, there would be less crowns in the economy, it WILL drive down the cr<>ce exchange rate...
however, for the free player it would still take the same amount of time to gain 100 CE
because their disposable income will be proportionate to cr<>ce exchange rate, the traders make sure of that.
it will in fact be harder for the paying player to progress... because if cr<>ce was 4k/100 it would take a lot more energy to get 5* recipes
while if it was say.. 10k/100 they would speed through the game, limited only by the amount of time they play.
I addressed the section about adding or removing crown sinks...
which still has no effect on the time spent to 100 CE ratio
only can slow down or speed up the inflation of cr<>ce ratio
>> And, remember, anyone can get CE by opening their wallet. Crowns, on the other hand can only be obtained by playing the game. If OOO makes crowns valuable enough, people will quite willingly buy CE in order to obtain crowns, this is frequently what people do on OOO's Puzzle Pirate's game.
That is an assumption, it's not frequent that people BUY CE and the ratio of paying players to non paying players is about 1:50 http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/23970/Puzzle_Pirates_James_Reveals_Fr... (i got this from another post in here somewhere)
not everyone has the ability to 'pull out their wallet'
>> Therefore, all crown sinks are also energy sinks
therefore this statement is not true, it's based off that assumption.
the inverse is true.. all energy sinks are crown sinks (if this is what you meant, just disregard this small section)
the only constant factor here is CE, because each CE has to be bought by someone.
you can't just spawn it from nowhere, unlike crowns.
There are three ways in which the price of CE will be lowered. Disregarding the ability to artificially reduce the price by simply reducing the number of crowns able to be earned per 100 energy, these are the methods that would truly reduce the cost to players without some type of massive change to the game.
1. There is a large increase in the number of paying players
2. Three Rings increases the amount of energy given per dollar spent
3. Three Rings creates an artificial price point by allowing CE to be sold directly from an NPC for crowns or by placing a massive "wall" of CE at a certain price in the player market
^ True = ]
however
1. 3 rings doesn't really have any control over that
2 and 3. both these options means they lose some revenue.
So... does this mean the game masters are going to be zombies now.
sooo cooool.
Not true!
There are -many- ways to sink crowns. Increasing or decreasing the overall crown drop rate is pretty much irrelevant, it may change the numbers but it doesn't change the balance in any meaningful way. Bringing up that possibility at all is really a red herring.
Change crafting costs to cost half as much CE and do nothing else, and CE prices will drop sharply (but not by half, of course, as first of all people will craft -more- and second of all, there are other uses of CE), progress will be easier in every way. However, three rings -wants- progress to be as slow as it is in terms of gear upgrades, so to keep the balance you need to increase the crown costs and/or materials costs (or both). Increasing materials costs may also act as a crown sink as more crowns are exchanged via the auction house with a stiff tax penalty, but certainly increasing crown crafting costs directly is, well, an increased crown sink.
Supposing we don't want to rehash the crafting discussions (oh, I just did, but ignore that), a vendor selling costume armor purely for crowns or offering the unbinding service with a cost purely in crowns are ideas that have been suggested as possible crown sinks, which will push CE prices down without affecting progress rates. That is, except to the extent that buying CE for crowns becomes easier, of course. Also... ah... no more also, or I'm simply going to be repeating what I wrote already : http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/11175
Also I've gone into it before why the OP's suggestion is not going to happen: http://forums.spiralknights.com/en/node/4620
Now now, Mr. OP Thread Poster Man of Vital Importance (who in all seriousness is an amazing, multifaceted individual). I understand it might appear that OOO has tomb for improvement, but we need to be patient with them like a medical doctor's client. Try to understand that they're bury busy meeting deadlines, responding to requests for in-game support, and producing new content on a regular basis. Given the consistent dedication shown by Three Onion Rings, I highly suspect they're aware of people's advice regarding the Kirby 64: the crystal energy shard system and want to make it work the best for everyone. By that, I mean something vague and pragmatic.
Apologies if the current high costs of ce have soiled your Spiral Knights experience though. You can have the last of mine if it helps make your day as bright as a solar flare.
IGN: A much-maligned vidcon reviewing website
Also, my in-game name is Hirus. Please feel free to massage me or message me anytime you want. Bye bye!
once the game is old and not profitable anymore maybe they do something drastic like that, probably not
How is he getting "100 energy = 2000cr profit. In my opinion ther should be fixed energy prices at 5k."
I get a little over 6.5k crowns with just 80 Energy doing Jelly King runs...........
WTS>> Weekend Half Off Gates Discount! Now here to fulfill all your Crown to CE inflation needs!
yes lowering crafting costs will also lower CE costs
because the demand is lowered.
but it's pretty much the same as getting more CE for your USD.. as in point 2.
and .. doing so will lead to 3 rings losing revenue.
it's hard to implement pure crown sink without 3 rings losing money
as with the costume skins for crowns... not counting the development hours used to make those costumes.
if they released them on an NPC and sold it for crowns... they would have lost the opportunity to sell them like the rose regalia set
and if they did say release it with a CE purchase... it will not only bring down the price of CE, but also actively generate them money
so in effect, it would have costed them money...
a real cheap way to crown sink is.. some form of lotto.
for example 1k crowns per ticket you can buy as many tickets as you want.
the prize is a bound Divine Avenger with CTR:VH
i'm just exaggerating, but you get the point, adding this 1 item to the world won't really have an effect on the market, and lots of people would have just thrown their CR into the draw...
of course who ever wins... sorta becomes a little over powered.. LOL
but something on a smaller magnitude? a trinket with CTR:low?
this would actually force people who don't have trinket slots unlocked, to unlock them..
i'm just ranting on now
Cr:CE rates not directly controlled by OOO.
/thread.
Too much complicated posts. Spiral Knights is just full of life
/endofthread
In my opinion, it should not cost anything to go into dungeons.
Leave energy costs to crafting, buying weapon slots and heat amps, and various other quality-of-life upgrades.
That way the game truly is free to play. And the energy market will still be fully in use due to the desire to see your character progress and try new things.
There is a (unless there is out of game interference) finite amount to charging only for crafting and gear, and that is enough gear made and sold so that the general need plateaus.
Then how are you going to get CE moving along?
And I want to just say again.... This event over this weekend is doing wonders for adding a ton of crown into the game... and pushing up CE prices.
To an extent, I believe it will readjust after the event, but it will not be the same. To say that OOO has no way to control/affect the ce/crown market just doesn't make sense.
Ideally I'd like the purpose of this "event" to be one step toward getting rid of the elevator costs.
"Ideally I'd like the purpose of this "event" to be one step toward getting rid of the elevator costs."
Nah. They did a Power Surge once before. It was much, much more intense than this one: elevators only cost 2 energy and there were hourly CE giveaways with a grand prize of
If they thought it'd be a good idea to remove elevator costs, they probably would not have held back so much when they had their second Power Surge (the one we're having now).
they would be digging their graves with their helmets if it was ending.
It's not necessarily true that creating crown sinks or reducing CE sinks will cost them money. The lower the CE costs for crafting and the lower the crown cost of CE, the more crafting will actually happen. If you cut CE costs on crafting in half across the board, you do -not- cut CE sinking in half across the board - for example, I simply won't craft up an item that doesn't come with some medium or better UV. It's not worth my time and Energy to do it only have to do it over again. If costs were better for me, as they were when I crafted my first 5* set planning all along to redo it later with UVs, well, I might craft things up without UV to see if I like the equipment first before investing in a UV. Similarly, I and other people might explore more lines of equipment. (I'm not crafting up snarble barb... I have a perfectly good Rigadoon and while it might be fun, I'm not about to craft up another piercing sword. They are too similar for me to spend time exploring the differences.)
With the other direction, introducing some content purely for crowns - sure, Three Rings doesn't -directly- profit from it, but it would bring in a much needed balance to the economy (at least needed if they are determined as they seem to be not to roll back the crafting cost increases that unbalanced it in the first place) and provide some substantial value to having crowns. If there's value to having crowns more people will be inclined to sell cash-bought CE for crowns to access that crown-cost content. That CE that is sold will naturally be sunk by the players that are buying CE. In this way both ends of the cash->CE-fountain->CE-sink microcurrency model are seeing increased use, and Three Rings is seeing increased profits.
As -much- profit as a rose regalia style incentive? Perhaps, perhaps not, but keeping CE prices down to something that still allows a reasonable profit from a Tier-2 run that isn't cherry-picked for profit, that's important for long term player retention. Those players buying CE for crowns might also be occasional cash purchasers, providing some direct income, and in any case, serve as a source of UVs and crowns for those who are buying lots of CE with cash. 'crown shop' costume items or some other crown cost content also would continue to exist for more than a month. Much of the value and excitement around rose regalia is that it was limited edition. A similar but long-term incentive would probably have a much more lukewarm response unless the art was simply fantastic, as there'd be little rarity value.
but it's pretty much the same as getting more CE for your USD.. as in point 2. and .. doing so will lead to 3 rings losing revenue.
*sigh*
No, as Senshi explained, if cutting the the amount of CE sunk crafting by a factor of 2 causes more than a factor of 2 increase in crafting, then OOO gains revenue.
While changing crafting costs isn't the same as changing the price OOO charges for CE, let's continue on with your example. If OOO charged $1 per 1 billion CE, OOO would sell at most $1 per customer. If OOO charged $1 billion per CE, OOO would sell no CE. Somewhere between those price points is going to be a peak (or maybe a few local maximums). It is highly unlikely that OOO determined the absolute best price point for CE per dollar, so it is quite possible that reducing the cost of CE would make OOO more money. See Wikipedia's Profit maximization article for a very basic introduction to the actual analysis.
yeah i know.. if halfing the cost of crafting.. causes more than a 2x increase in crafting it may be more prosperous for 3 rings
it is a balancing act..
i think the usual example is the selling 100 cups of lemonade for 1 dollar each.. vs selling 1 cup for 100
i do understand what was said..
just that the opposite may be true too..
like if you just upped the cost of crafting a little.. some people might quit.. but those who do continue to play.. may end up spending more to craft etc..
yes it's a balance
i definitely don't know enough about the dynamics of this game = [
my guess that the CE prices were gonna go up by a lot for this event was certainly proved wrong = [
EDIT: i think there's probably no quick fix as we've all been talking about
i think the 2 new gremlins are a good thing..
a long term solution would probably just to add more content.. that will definately bring more new players to SK
I think this is topic #9001 on this...
Anyhow...If you'd like to read more about why your idea won't work, search for one of the main energy debate threads. :)