Spiral Knights - Catalyst Series - The Honeymoon is over?

Catalyst Series - The Honeymoon is over?

20 replies [Last post]

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 13:43

Melizande

Legacy Username

So, I'm looking for additional opinions on this weapon.

I've just upgraded my catalyzer to a toxic version, and I have to say I'm quite a bit underwhelmed.
To me it seems like a really great weapon for soloing. And that's about it.

The moment aggro gets split between players, this gun's flaws begin to glisten. It's too slow to hit anything that's not running right for you. More often than not, the charge attack is going to miss just about anything if you're running with swordsmen because the moment I line up a shot, someone runs in and, over the course of my bolt's poor travel time, knocks the beast right out of the way, if not kills it completely before a shot can even land.

The Toxic version deals shadow damage, which works decently on jellies if you're at close - medium range, but against gremlins, the only way to really assure a shot will land is to run right up into their face which — defeats the purpose of a ranged weapon.

So am I missing something? Is this just a playstyle mis-match and should I go back to the Umbra? Any insight?

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 14:34

Tenkii

With gremlins, you have to

With gremlins, you have to shoot them into a wall if you want to go ranged. I usually do a single shot --> shield so I can adjust.

You know, catalyzer's name kind of implies something good might happen if you have multiple catalyzers in a party, but I have yet to get into a 4 catalyzer party :/

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 15:00

Hipster-Knight

4 people all shooting

4 people all shooting Catalyzers would be awesome.

Also, when shooting Gremlins I tend to use uncharged shots to back them into a wall, then shoot a charge at them that they can't avoid.
Then they die a horrible toxic death.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 15:34

Boolet

Legacy Username

I agree with Classy's post.

Catalyzers are fun, but only really useful when the majority of players are using them. (making them optimal for solo or guild-teams)

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 17:36

Twiddle

So am I missing something? Is

So am I missing something? Is this just a playstyle mis-match and should I go back to the Umbra? Any insight?

Nope. You are not missing anything. The catalyzer series is pretty bad because of the slow bullet speed. Granted, it would be nice if everyone packed a catalyzer. But I think few people will pack catalyzers because it's a bad weapon in any other group than a group of pure gunslingers with good team coordination, and the chances of you running into a group of pure gunslingers (let alone one with good team coordination) is very slim.

-edit-

Related.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 17:45

timanth

Legacy Username

I think it's a playstyle

I think it's a playstyle mismatch. For a shadow gun, you only have the choice between an Umbra Driver and a Biohazard. And I'd go with the Biohazard all the way.

1) 3-shot clip instead of 2-shot with comparable per-bullet damage to the alchemer.
2) You can actually do a walking-unload in which you bunch your bullets together, ensuring all 3 hit even gremlins.
3) Jellies just die. That's about it.
4) Poison. Umbra driver doesn't have it.

The catalyzer does require you to get somewhat closer, but once you know you can completely manipulate the gremlins' dodge mechanic making catalyzer bullets land is a piece of cake.

Overall, it's just a superior gun. Can't say much for the normal-damage version though since the Supernova is a better Normal damage gun.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 17:46

Merethif

Catalyzer is definitely not a

Catalyzer is definitely not a weapon of choice for cookie cutter players.
It requires a superior skill to hit gremlin with it on T3 and not being hit.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 19:23

Tenkii

I generally use it as an

I generally use it as an ultra-mobile close-range weapon (and yeah, you're like "why have a gun then?") where you either run behind the shots to force and chase the dodge response or to bait attacks and counter them by quickly stepping backwards and releasing the charge (which pushes you back 1 tile anyway).

The only times I use it extensively in long range are vs turrets, or large mobs of non-shielding constructs or jellies. Against small numbers, I play close-midrange to get accurate and guaranteed charges (ex: counter attacks), and so I can shieldpush them into other mobs before blowing them up.

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 21:21

Shinko

Legacy Username

@timanth Those arguments are

@timanth

Those arguments are a bit one sided.

Poison isn't extremely useful unless there's a healer around that you need to negate. If you're not a horrible player or you're not in a horrible situation you don't get hit all that often so the damage decrease doesn't get used all that much.

The shadow tech also has the benefit of having ricochets. You don't get to see those really work till you get up to the 4* driver, but when you do, groups of slimes do down instantly. The group killing ability of the shadow tech (imo) is better than the catalyzer because of the normal shot ricochets. It takes too long for the catalyzer to set up charge shots on enemies then blow them up to beat the shadow tech's ability to just fire and let the ricochets take care of themselves.

The catalyzer works great on big enemies (evolved lichens) that don't move too quickly or get killed too fast, but not so good against normal mobs (in a party scenario).

Sun, 07/24/2011 - 21:29

Tenkii

Poison doesn't negate 3rd

Poison doesn't negate 3rd party healing - there was an angry thread about it in general discussion not too long ago.
It does negate self-healing.

The most important/noticeable effects from poison are reduced attack and defense for the monster.

I'm not a 'gunner' by any means (though I'm experimenting), but Biohazard is a really handy secondary weapon. I use the shots to push dodging monsters into walls so I can eat them with my Gran Faust, or poison lichen colonies to eat them with my Gran Faust, or run around and force wolvers in danger rooms to dodge so I can kill the less annoying monsters with chip damage and/or Gran Faust.

As far as the Neutralizer, the shot damage is the same, but the charge is slighty more powerful than the Biohazard, with no effects. Essentially, it's used the same way except with usability versus zombies.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 12:52

#10

timanth

Legacy Username

@Shinko I dislike ricochet

@Shinko

I dislike ricochet intensely. Run IMF with an alchemer with all your ricochets hitting switches that you don't want to hit, letting rockets through and wiping your party, and I'll bet you'll be singing a different tune. I've had enough bad experiences with my cryotech that I've decided to forgo it completely, not even going to make my 4* version (wasted 10k on learning the recipe though...)

And again, the shadowtech has 2 shots, the ricochets are completely random, so you have no control over where they go except "backwards and to the left somewhere." I'd rather be able to do consistent high AOE to everything in a large radius. It's basically a mobile bomb with super low charge time.

And against single enemies, the catalyzer definitely takes the cake.

@Tenlki

That's funny you mention that, because I tested it extensively with two menders in an arena battle. Left them as the only monsters alive and damaged one. Saw the other cast mending, but the first one didn't get healed. Doesn't stop them from TRYING, but the healing doesn't go into effect.

I dislike the Neutralizer simply because there are better normal damage guns out there (like the supernova). So I'd recommend the Biohazard line if you were looking at catalyzers.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 17:37

#11

Tenkii

poison?!

Oh that's awesome.

You might want to resurrect this thread then.

I'm pretty sure I see the +health text as well - as for whether or not those actually give health back to the monsters is another question. I might have also seen a +200s on a monster's health but killed it with a -100s attack (which would make sense if the health wasn't actually restored).

My anecdote is from random observation than testing ;/

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 21:39

#12

Eeks

Tenlki Poison doesn't negate

Tenlki

I'm not sure how I came across as angry but whatever. The thread you're talking about addressed the idea that healing was dealing damage to enemies that were poisoned which is obviously not the case.

Mon, 07/25/2011 - 23:36

#13

Tenkii

Aye. It wasn't so much angry

Aye. It wasn't so much angry as disappointed, but it was all over the thread.

Regardless, from the OP and down, it still doesn't seem to be definitive that the 3rd party heals are completely negated the same way regen is.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 00:00

#14

Shinko

Legacy Username

@ Timanth I agree that

@ Timanth

I agree that against single enemies (if you ignore your party killing it b4 you can stack charges) that the catalyzer wins.

The ricochets aren't so random that you can't control it (to a degree). Like you said, they always go left. It's not too hard to generally aim for the right half of a group of monsters so that your ricochets go off and hit the rest of the group. I would encourage you to get the 4* version of one alchemer since the 2* and 3* alchemers are pretty worthless. 4* and up is when the alchemers begin to come into their power. At 4* the ricochets can ricochet again. This doesn't seem like much in words, but in practice this is actually a huge boost in mobing ability. Also, when I hit a well aimed charge shot with a 4* alchemer (usually on a gun puppy that's stationary) I can hit the charge and 2 normal hits on it which usually does enough damage for a 1 shot kill. The cryotech has the disadvantage of breaking its own freeze with its ricochets though so I like the firo/prisma better for elemental guns.

When you get out of IMF and explore the rest of CW, 100% of which has almost no switches and lots more groups of monsters, you might start to see the ricochets differently. IMF though, if you're a pure gunner like me, you have an elemental gun to take care of the constructs (or an elemental sword which I sometimes carry ^^) and a black hawk to hit switches and get rid of gremlins. The antigua line might not do that much damage, but the shot speed, distance, and accuracy makes it a very nice gun for nailing switches in there.

When you use guns a lot you start to see specific instances where a certain gun will greatly outshine the other guns (and even sometimes the other weapons). Because guns are so weak compared to other weapons it is imperative that you take advantage of those instances and use the right guns at the right time to get the best experience out of them. If I know several of the levels I'm entering are going to have fully evolved lichens I want the catalyzer to stack charges on them and destroy it quickly, but if I know that there's going to be lots of jelly groups (Jelly Farm II for instance) I want the shadow tech to deal mob damage and keep myself more mobile (when you use the charge attacks on the catalyzer you have some pretty bad mobility) so I can avoid the attacks and deal good group damage.

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 02:52

#15

timanth

Legacy Username

@ShinkoWith all due respect,

@Shinko

With all due respect, I'm speaking as someone whose only lack of experience is FSC (in which shadow damage is irrelevant anyways). I've duoed down to the core without needing to use energy to rez (and even then it was mostly me rezzing my partner).

For an elemental gun, I'd rather take the Polaris series of guns instead of an elemental alchemer. The normal expanded bullets do ridiculous amounts of damage without needing to charge. Shaping mobs with a Pulsar is an art in and of itself, and I've come to enjoy the ridiculous amounts of damage it can deal to the large packs of mechaknights you end up getting in 3rd stage arenas.

But that's another discussion entirely.

We were talking about what shadow gun is better. I've found that with the catalyzer's slower bullets, it's actually much easier to bait gremlins to dodge into all three of the shots, dealing maximum damage. I don't use the charge attack much outside of clearing huge mobs of jellies, but the AOE is tremendous. I've no trouble soloing jelly groups with the toxic catalyzer back when it was still that version of the gun (It's a Biohazard now). You speak as if a catalyzer user needs to be stacking charges all the time, when in fact that's not the proper way to use the gun. Its charge time is faster, but that doesn't mean it's an integral part of how you use the weapon. Everything is situational. The fast charge time is there for you to take advantage of to load one or two bombs onto a monster to deal AOE poison explosion damage, not completely fill it up (admittedly it is really satisfying to see an entire huge group of jellies suddenly disappear though).

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 03:03

#16

Abathur

To answer the Poison thing once for all!!! Supporter Answer

I was wondering too about the poison so i asked a Supporter how it works. He confirmed me following things:

Mob: A poisoned mob will deal (?) less damage and loses 10% more HP (you deal instead of 50 -> 55). Also a if a poisoned mob will be healed he gets a minor (?%) of the healed amount of HP in damage. So for example they slowly die next to a silk wing if perm poisoned.

Knight: A poisoned Knight can't heal himself, gets (?%) more damage and deals 50% less damage to enemies.

Thats all and it's confirmed by a Supporter from SK, so this is actually completly true and there is no "mimimi but i swore i've seen somedays mimimi" you can say to me.

mfg

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 03:17

#17

Hipster-Knight

My thoughts exactly Timanth,

My thoughts exactly Timanth, I was playing earlier today with a Toxic Catalyzer and someone asked me "aren't you supposed to charge that thing?" baiting gremlins into walls with the slow bullets is actually an incredibly effective use, and sets them up nicely to be finished off with a sword. In my opinion, the charges are mostly useful on slimes and large packs of Gremlins (the idea being you spam charges into a group and then start firing off normal shots and watch the poison and explosions everywhere).

Tue, 07/26/2011 - 22:45

#18

WolfAwesome

Legacy Username

My thoughts on the Catalyst series.

So, I'm going for the Neutralizer, which is the Normal damage version of the Biohazard. I chose this because of the normal damage and the fact that it charges faster than most guns, and you can stack the shots. To counteract the slowness, all you really have to do is shoot where the enemy is going to be, and get used to it. I'm really good with the gun so far, and I love how the stacked charged shots do massive damage. I like it more than the Supernova, just because the Supernova shots only explode at a certain range, rather than you're always guaranteed an explosion with a quick charged shot and normal shot. In my eyes, the Catalyst series is good, maybe to me one of the best series along with the Pulsar series, and both have their ups and downs.

I didn't want a Shadow only damage gun anyway, cuz it's only effective against 2 enemy types, and unaffective against 2 of them as well.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 01:34

#19

timanth

Legacy Username

Depends on whether you only

Depends on whether you only have 2 weapon slots or not. But the Supernova is a far superior normal damage gun.

If you're a full gunner, though, you should be having 2 different guns of different damage types.

Wed, 07/27/2011 - 22:10

#20

Cogspin

Legacy Username

I've played quite a bit with

I've played quite a bit with my Catalyzer and found that the enemy dodging and the slow projectile and actually work in your favor, especially against big groups. Since it moves slowly, you can sometimes sit still and fire a charged shot, force the enemies to back away, and then have them run right into the bolt as they move to approach you again. You're forced into a different, much more linear pattern of mobility than a typical gun.

Another little extra plus is that Catalyzer shots have a tiny burst radius that can affect tightly bunched enemies like jellies, gremlins, and anything you're running circles around in an Arena. I've actually tested and confirmed that the charged shots do this too, but it's really hard to pull off a reliable stick on more than one enemy outside the ATH... it's always a blast though!

As the OP hinted, though, it really comes down to your play style, especially with guns, since they're the most practically varied weapon type. Figure out what you like and do that; at worst, you'll have two guns, and more guns is never bad.

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Catalyst Series - The Honeymoon is over?